Hybrid Taxis

[101RRS]

As most would have observed, taxis in most areas have changed from LPG Falcons to hybrid Camrys and the occasional Prius.

Now if these vehicles were plug in hybrids I could understand the use of these vehicles by the taxi industry but they are not plug ins but straight hybrids so the power to move these vehicles can only come from the burning of petrol in an internal combustion engine. Yes I appreciate they also have brake regenerative power as well but in the scheme of things this is probably does not contribute a lot to the production of drive energy.

So as the batteries have to be charged by the onboard petrol engine and there is no plug in option to recharge the taxis in quiet times, petrol usage would be similar, if not more than a similar straight petrol engined Camry, noting that a Camry with electric motors, regenerative braking and batteries probably weighs more than a standard vehicle so would require more energy to make it move etc in the same conditions.

What am I missing? Why change to hybrid Camrys and not LPG powered Camrys?

Garry

[PhilipA]

Forget the taxis, what about F1 cars being hybrids?
When I heard about Daniel Riccardo being penalised for using more than 120Kw of electric power on a lap, I had to look harder.
So the F1 cars recover heat from after the turbo and also recover energy during braking MKU?.
They then store it I presume in batteries and use the stored power presumably to enhance acceleration.
I guess there are lots on here that know about that but I didn't as I don't follow F1 at all.
BTW in Townsville all the taxis were Prius..s when I used to go there. They are more of a hybrid than Camrys.
seeing taxis usually stooge around town there would be great savings in fuel use to be had.
Regards PhilipA

[101RRS]

They are more of a hybrid than Camrys.
seeing taxis usually stooge around town there would be great savings in fuel use to be had.
Regards PhilipA

How will there be great savings to be had? Starting with flat batteries at the start of a shift, the amount of fuel used for the shift would be similar between the hybrid and none hybrid "all things being equal". If the batteries were charged at the start then they would have been charged by the engine in the earlier shift - as I said what am i missing. You do not get energy out of the thin air - it has to come from the internal combustion engine in the case of the hybrid.

As Top Gear found many years back, on the race track the hybrid used more fuel than the same vehicle in non hybrid form.

Garry

[Bigbjorn]

How will there be great savings to be had? Starting with flat batteries at the start of a shift, the amount of fuel used for the shift would be similar between the hybrid and none hybrid "all things being equal". If the batteries were charged at the start then they would have been charged by the engine in the earlier shift - as I said what am i missing. You do not get energy out of the thin air - it has to come from the internal combustion engine in the case of the hybrid.

As Top Gear found many years back, on the race track the hybrid used more fuel than the same vehicle in non hybrid form.

Garry

In my GM-H days I was for a time the service rep to the Sydney taxi industry. I can assure you that if taxi owners are using Prius/Camry then they are cheaper to run. There is almost no creature on God's earth meaner than a taxi owner. Some kept such detailed records they would bend my ear on the fractions of a cent per mile that disc brakes were more expensive to run than drum brakes. Bosch electrics were cheaper to operate than Lucas,and so on. I have asked drivers their opinion of hybrids and they love them. "Hardly uses any fuel at all" is the constant reply. Drivers have to buy their fuel, not the owner. In most cases drivers lease the cab for the duration of a shift which makes them independent contractors not employees. In addition, cabs never get cold unless they are owner driven and the owner takes them out to make a few bob.

[Bigbjorn]

How will there be great savings to be had? Starting with flat batteries at the start of a shift, the amount of fuel used for the shift would be similar between the hybrid and none hybrid "all things being equal". If the batteries were charged at the start then they would have been charged by the engine in the earlier shift - as I said what am i missing. You do not get energy out of the thin air - it has to come from the internal combustion engine in the case of the hybrid.

As Top Gear found many years back, on the race track the hybrid used more fuel than the same vehicle in non hybrid form.

Garry

In my GM-H days I was for a time the service rep to the Sydney taxi industry. I can assure you that if taxi owners are using Prius/Camry then they are cheaper to run. There is almost no creature on God's earth meaner than a taxi owner. Some kept such detailed records they would bend my ear on the fractions of a cent per mile that disc brakes were more expensive to run than drum brakes. Bosch electrics were cheaper to operate than Lucas,and so on. I have asked drivers their opinion of hybrids and they love them. "Hardly uses any fuel at all" is the constant reply. Drivers have to buy their fuel, not the owner. In most cases drivers lease the cab for the duration of a shift which makes them independent contractors not employees. In addition, cabs never get cold unless they are owner driven and the owner takes them out to make a few bob.

[scarry]

Some of the early prius taxis ran the petrol engine on LPG.

I don't know if they still do.

I don't think any of the Toyota hybrids are plug in.

Overseas they definitely are,seems here we just get the older models.

[BradC]

You do not get energy out of the thin air - it has to come from the internal combustion engine in the case of the hybrid.

It does, but the ICE in a hybrid is actually more efficient that a conventional ICE because it doesn't have to have anywhere near as wide RPM range or torque band. So you recover battery power under braking, you also get it under ICE but the battery supplements the bits where you'd traditionlaly want more oomph from the ICE. So it's smaller and more efficient given it only has to work in a much more limited set of conditions.

Now, does it save enough CO2 in its lifetime to offset the extra require to make the batteries and electronics? Who knows. As Bigbjorn says, Taxi owners are mean mothers and they wouldn't be spending the extra $$ on a hybrid if there wasn't a payoff somewhere.

[101RRS]

Well the Camry has the same 2.5 litre engine in the non hybrid Camry and the hybrid Camry so there is nothing to be gained.

So as I indicated, as these taxis are not plug ins, over a long period, the power to run the car has to come from somewhere - in both vehicles is the same 2.5 litre engine - whether it is running the wheels directly or charging batteries the laws of physics require the same power to be ultimately developed (all things being equal of course).

Garry

[bsperka]

Let's deal with some data. ADR fuel economy figures - 4.2l per 100km hybrid versus 7.8l per 100km petrol only for a 2019 Camry. So let's say a saving of 3 l per 100km. The energy recovered from when braking. Even if only 1 litre per 100km, then the kms racked up save them money.

[BradC]

Well the Camry has the same 2.5 litre engine in the non hybrid Camry and the hybrid Camry so there is nothing to be gained.

The donk in the hybrid may be "the same" in that it's an ICE and 2.5L, but it has the ability to run an Atkinson cycle which at very limited operating points is hugely more efficient thermally, although inflexible enough to be useless without the hybrid.

The coupling of the drive train and battery assistance means the engine can be held at its point of maximum efficiency for much longer, so narrowing the operating conditions to those that best suit the ICE.

Yeah, regen braking probably contributed measurably, but it's the added flexibility of the drive train that allows more efficient use of the ICE.

Why do you think there is a huge push for CVT or a gazillion speed slush boxes? Keep the engine in its most efficient operating point for more of the time and save fuel. Otherwise we'd all still be driving 2 speed Hydramatics. The hybrid drive train just pushes that a step further.

Again, in the real world will that ever offset the additional resources required to make them?

Edit: Found a great article on the latest Camry donk : https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2019-04/documents/sae-2019-01-0249-benchmarking-2018-toyota-camry-2.5-liter-atkinson-cycle-engine-cooled-egr.pdf
I'll have to eat my words, as in the ICE only Camry it is mapped to run Atkinson cycle under certain conditions also. Mapping changes between the two applications to effect the outcomes required of the hybrid drive train.