240V electrical work in Vans

[pop058]

A question for the Licensed Electricians. I believe I know the answer but would like to hear it from someone WITH a ticket. On a caravan FB page I was reading about replacing the mains input point on their van. The usual suspects said "just do it ". After some discussion on legalities, someone stated that a license was not required to perform 240V work on caravans and transportable buildings in Victoria (at least).

Can anyone clarify ??

[scarry]

Now where is Gav when you need him??

For others,in Qld,yes definitely needs to be done by a licensed electrician.

I bet VIC is the same.

[pop058]

This is the general story.

154544

[Homestar]

Technically a caravan is considered an appliance in Victoria so no, you don’t need to be licensed to do anything to them - ESV (Energy Safe Victoria) generally don’t want to know about anything that’s not hardwired to the mains. There is also no safety checks required on wiring or gas in Vic to register a van - it’s just treated as any other trailer. As long as the rear lights work, that’s pretty much it...

Having said that, I would strongly recommend using a Licensed Electrician to do the work, but I would say that wouldn’t I.

While changing an inlet on a van is pretty easy to do, would the DIY’er then check the health of the rest of the vans wiring after completing the work? I would.

As for transportable buildings, they are almost exclusively hard wired in Victoria so needs to be done by a Sparky and all wiring up to the applicable Standards - there’s about 3 of them that these fall under. Also need to be elec tested when on sites too, so I’d put them in a whole different category.

The comment regarding not using licensed people to wire up vans is correct - they pay their labour’s to do it. Most new vans wiring wouldn’t pass inspection if this was required - I’ve seen some pretty ordinary work.

[Vern]

Technically a caravan is considered an appliance in Victoria so no, you don’t need to be licensed to do anything to them - ESV (Energy Safe Victoria) generally don’t want to know about anything that’s not hardwired to the mains. There is also no safety checks required on wiring or gas in Vic to register a van - it’s just treated as any other trailer. As long as the rear lights work, that’s pretty much it...

Having said that, I would strongly recommend using a Licensed Electrician to do the work, but I would say that wouldn’t I.

While changing an inlet on a van is pretty easy to do, would the DIY’er then check the health of the rest of the vans wiring after completing the work? I would.

As for transportable buildings, they are almost exclusively hard wired in Victoria so needs to be done by a Sparky and all wiring up to the applicable Standards - there’s about 3 of them that these fall under. Also need to be elec tested when on sites too, so I’d put them in a whole different category.

The comment regarding not using licensed people to wire up vans is correct - they pay their labour’s to do it. Most new vans wiring wouldn’t pass inspection if this was required - I’ve seen some pretty ordinary work.My folks vans they used to build had to have gas compliance for them prior to rego, they also came with a non prescribed certificate for electrical, not sure if this was mandatory or not. I do recall seeing an A.S book there for wiring of caravans etc...Might see if they still have it.

[Blknight.aus]

IN vic and QLD for van that do not generate their own power anyone with a restricted electrical can replace an existing plug/socket assembly But only with a like for like item.

[Gav 110]

Doesn’t Victoria abide by the same Australian Standard (AS/NZS 3001:2008) as the rest of the country

The standard sets out requirements for electrical installations associated with transportable structures and vehicles that are intended for connection to low-voltage a.c. supply systems (i.e. exceeding 50V a.c. but not exceeding 1000V a.c.)

The Standard uses the term ‘transportable structure’ which includes both vehicles and structures with or without wheels that can readily be moved from one site to another either under their own motive power or by some other means

Transportable buildings that are hard wired come under AS/NZS3000:2018
They do not require double pole switching as they will be hard wired on site by a licensed electrician ( hopefully)

Transportable buildings that have an appliance inlet have to have double pole switching incase someone changes a plug top on an extension lead (something anybody is legally aloud to do) and gets the active and neutral crossed (easy to do, I’ve even seen electricians stuff it up)

As with appliances, companies will get people without qualifications to do the wiring and have it (supposedly)inspected by an electrician

In WA we have to put a notice in to Energy Safety and install a compliance certificate

I have been told some caravan parks won’t let you get a powered site without first seeing the compliance certificate on the vehicle

Any work on a low-voltage wiring system (between 50V - 1000V a.c. or 120V - 1500V d.c.) shouldn’t have anyone but a licensed trade person do any sort of work on it

As Homestar said, would a DIYer check the rest of the wiring system ( or know what to check)

Just remember people, Volts jolts, Current kills
Always use a licensed electrician [wink11]

Gav

[W&KO]

IN vic and QLD for van that do not generate their own power anyone with a restricted electrical can replace an existing plug/socket assembly But only with a like for like item.

In Queensland your restricted electrical license need to be endorsed with them type of equipment.

Like for me I can only work on the electrical side of gas appliances. Not unless it changed in the last few years.

[Homestar]

It’s like anything like this - how you interpret the regs. I speak to one of the ESV compliance officers quite a bit in my job about our equipment, I have discussed vans with him before and he wasn’t so bothered by them. Not saying I agree, just the way things seem to have been done.

Vern - yes, new vans do come with a COES, but it isn’t a requirement to registering them in Vic, but other states I believe. If you looked at all of them I think you’d find one or 2 people sign off all the manufacturers here in Melbourne. The work isn’t conducted by a licensed person though, and the gas lines aren’t run by a Plumber either, but again signed off by one who does multiple manufacturers I believe. This is just one of MANY things wrong with the van industry IMO.

Maybe one day when the ESV aren’t busy doing anything else they may clamp down on this, but they are woefully under resourced and generally target bigger things.

[RANDLOVER]

……………...

Maybe one day when the ESV aren’t busy doing anything else they may clamp down on this, but they are woefully under resourced and generally target bigger things.

Although the Authorities aren't inspecting this a s a matter of course, I can guarantee an Electrical Inspector will form part of the prosecution team if anything serious was to go wrong, and then the installer/replacer would be asked questions like "Which code/part of the code did you rely to install the item? Which AS or similar standard did you test the installation to? Where is the documentation for the installation and testing? etc"

[Blknight.aus]

In Queensland your restricted electrical license need to be endorsed with them type of equipment.

Like for me I can only work on the electrical side of gas appliances. Not unless it changed in the last few years.

The restricted electrical (general) allows for the safe disconnection of supply, removal, repair/replacement and re fitment of equipment that is like for like (minor variations like mechanical bolting, colour are allowed for) and the reconnection of the supply.

What it specifically prohibits is changing, installing or the permanent removal of items. So... on paper..

for me to fit a new 15A inlet to someones caravan is fine, for me to change it to another model with an inbuilt RCD is not. similarly if they want a light added or removed I can't do that.

[Homestar]

Although the Authorities aren't inspecting this a s a matter of course, I can guarantee an Electrical Inspector will form part of the prosecution team if anything serious was to go wrong, and then the installer/replacer would be asked questions like "Which code/part of the code did you rely to install the item? Which AS or similar standard did you test the installation to? Where is the documentation for the installation and testing? etc"

Agree 100%. Unfortunately someone will be injured or killed by some substandard wiring before this is likely to happen. 🙁

Such is the way of these sort of things unfortunately.

[scarry]

The restricted electrical (general) allows for the safe disconnection of supply, removal, repair/replacement and re fitment of equipment that is like for like (minor variations like mechanical bolting, colour are allowed for) and the reconnection of the supply.

What it specifically prohibits is changing, installing or the permanent removal of items. So... on paper..

for me to fit a new 15A inlet to someones caravan is fine, for me to change it to another model with an inbuilt RCD is not. similarly if they want a light added or removed I can't do that.

Sort of.

i had this out with an electrical inspector.

I can disconnect and reconnect,basically,only, as part of my work trade,such as compressors,pumps,fan motors,contacters,controllers,pressure switches,etc,etc.
I can also do any fault finding,as part of my trade.Three phase,single phase,whatever.
We do this all day.
I can't run fixed cabling.Cant even replace the interconnecting cable for a split system,because the last person ran cables that do not comply with the regs.

So technically,i can replace a light fitting in a cool room,but not one at home.I also can't technically fit a new 15A inlet to a van,or replace a power point at home.This work is not part of my trade.

Not that i would do anything like that anyway[bighmmm]

Put it another way,some plumbers have restricted electrical tickets,they can only disconnect and reconnect heaters in hot water systems,that is part of their trade.As an example,they can't replace a contacter or defrost timer in a mechanical switchboard.

Dave,so yours must be a different type of electrical ticket than mine?

[W&KO]

The restricted electrical (general) allows for the safe disconnection of supply, removal, repair/replacement and re fitment of equipment that is like for like (minor variations like mechanical bolting, colour are allowed for) and the reconnection of the supply.

What it specifically prohibits is changing, installing or the permanent removal of items. So... on paper..

for me to fit a new 15A inlet to someones caravan is fine, for me to change it to another model with an inbuilt RCD is not. similarly if they want a light added or removed I can't do that.

Not the case case when I got my restricted electrical.....

If your sponsor or employer ticks all the industries and is happy to sign off all good.....

My industry at the time was gas, I could only be endorsed for gas appliances, probably because we were following the requirements to a T......the guys from coke-cola that wet on the same course got endorsed for food manufacturing equipment.

Maybe it was a little different when you did your training and the application to tie electrical licensing board.

[Chops]

Agree 100%. Unfortunately someone will be injured or killed by some substandard wiring before this is likely to happen. 🙁

Such is the way of these sort of things unfortunately.

Speaking with a mate (yes, I do have some [tonguewink]) who is with one of the larger (read largest) van building companies, he was involved in an industry regulatory meeting a few weeks earlier, and they are looking at synchronising the rules/regulations of the entire industry, clamping down on all and sundry, country wide.
It seems very few manufacturers do any real world type destructive testing on anything, including framework etc. Was a bit of a surprise to me, as I would have thought this, to some degree was already in place.
Waiting to catch up with him again in a couple of weeks, so I might have better info there after. Hopefully, it won’t take someone being killed to get this right.

[Blknight.aus]

Not the case case when I got my restricted electrical.....

If your sponsor or employer ticks all the industries and is happy to sign off all good.....

My industry at the time was gas, I could only be endorsed for gas appliances, probably because we were following the requirements to a T......the guys from coke-cola that wet on the same course got endorsed for food manufacturing equipment.

Maybe it was a little different when you did your training and the application to tie electrical licensing board.

the restricted electrical varies from state to state (no surprise there) and what you're endorsed for.

just like truck rego and licences.

[rick130]

Sort of.

i had this out with an electrical inspector.

I can disconnect and reconnect,basically,only, as part of my work trade,such as compressors,pumps,fan motors,contacters,controllers,pressure switches,etc,etc.
I can also do any fault finding,as part of my trade.Three phase,single phase,whatever.
We do this all day.
I can't run fixed cabling.Cant even replace the interconnecting cable for a split system,because the last person ran cables that do not comply with the regs.

So technically,i can replace a light fitting in a cool room,but not one at home.I also can't technically fit a new 15A inlet to a van,or replace a power point at home.This work is not part of my trade.

Not that i would do anything like that anyway[bighmmm]

Put it another way,some plumbers have restricted electrical tickets,they can only disconnect and reconnect heaters in hot water systems,that is part of their trade.As an example,they can't replace a contacter or defrost timer in a mechanical switchboard.

Dave,so yours must be a different type of electrical ticket than mine?And I can do all this in NSW, Vic, Tas and Sa but not Qld, NT and WA.
Those states refuse to acknowledge my quals.....[emoji849]

[Vern]

And I can do all this in NSW, Vic, Tas and Sa but not Qld, NT and WA.
Those states refuse to acknowledge my quals.....[emoji849]Should be national recognition for trades.

[DoubleChevron]

I can guarantee a licensed electrician has never been near 99.999% of caravans in Australia. The wiring is woeful and horrendous if you ever have the side off one (except the pommy built caravans. They seem to run proper wiring harnesses).

Just change the plug. I guarantee you will do a better and safer job than the factory did (even if you are just using a shifter and $2.00 pair of pliers from ALDI).

The only thing I would make sure of is if there is a safety switch fitted .... the damn thing was actually wired correctly ( and it actually works ). If there wasn't one fitted.... Fit one!

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Nearly every caravan I've seen the cladding off I've been able to find something REALLY DODGY on. eg: staples into the 240volt wiring (I **** you not, its VERY common). Or ... nails into the 240 volt wiring ... The 240 volt wiring is always swinging around uncontained in the walls ............ mixed with 12volt wiring (that is often only twisted together :Thump::no2: I am not kidding ... the 12volt wiring is just twisted together and covered in insulation tape ..... Swinging uncontained in the walls (mixing with any aeriel/240volt wiring). The gentlest tug on the 12volt wiring will pull it apart!

safety switch .... you must fit one ..... absolutely. I think the aluminium frame caravans would be much safer as you wouldn't tend to end up with live staples/nails around the 'van (as the whole caravan is an earth, so the thing will pop fuses/circuit breakers if the factory has put screws/pop rivets through the 240volt wiring).

When the builders were working on my place I came home oneday to find no power to 1/2 of the house... Very strange, I figured an appliance must have died in the house. So I busily unplugged *everything* I could find.... and finally the safety switch stopped tripping. OK, so lets plug everything back in one at a time and see what is tripping it. Imagine my surprised when ***anything*** at all plugged in tripped the circuit breaker..... I finally worked it out though. If you short neutral and earth together .... the safety switch will not see the earth leakage until you apply a load (as its wired into the active). So I switched the power off and went outside to the end of the house where they had removed the bricks and hung foil insulation to cover the house frame. I know where the powerpoint was inside the house, so I pushed on the insulation until I felt the wiring .... and traced it across the bottom of the frame, then up the wall .............................where I found a staple straight into the wiring (rather than the frame). The fact our meter box has been upgraded to safety switch/circuit breakers on each circuit probably save the builders life ....... You really should bang staples into the 240volt wring ...........

seeya,
Shane L.

[scarry]

There was actually a thread on another forum and some pics of wiring in vans before it was sheeted over,I couldn’t believe what I was seeing.

There have also been a few fires in newish vans caused by electrical faults,but nowhere was it stated what the fault was,it could have been the 12V wiring.

Something sure needs to be done about it.

[DoubleChevron]

There was actually a thread on another forum and some pics of wiring in vans before it was sheeted over,I couldn’t believe what I was seeing.

There have also been a few fires in newish vans caused by electrical faults,but nowhere was it stated what the fault was,it could have been the 12V wiring.

Something sure needs to be done about it.

Most caravan parks have RCD breakers in there power poles these days.... and most homes. They probably save countless people each year (they sure are amazing devices!).

[scarry]

Most caravan parks have RCD breakers in there power poles these days.... and most homes. They probably save countless people each year (they sure are amazing devices!).

They are,but shouldn’t be relied on.

They also give you quite a big whack,before tripping,don’t ask me how I know.[bighmmm]

[Blknight.aus]

Sort of.

i had this out with an electrical inspector.

I can disconnect and reconnect,basically,only, as part of my work trade,such as compressors,pumps,fan motors,contacters,controllers,pressure switches,etc,etc.
I can also do any fault finding,as part of my trade.Three phase,single phase,whatever.
We do this all day.
I can't run fixed cabling.Cant even replace the interconnecting cable for a split system,because the last person ran cables that do not comply with the regs.

So technically,i can replace a light fitting in a cool room,but not one at home.I also can't technically fit a new 15A inlet to a van,or replace a power point at home.This work is not part of my trade.

Not that i would do anything like that anyway[bighmmm]

Put it another way,some plumbers have restricted electrical tickets,they can only disconnect and reconnect heaters in hot water systems,that is part of their trade.As an example,they can't replace a contacter or defrost timer in a mechanical switchboard.

Dave,so yours must be a different type of electrical ticket than mine?


yeah, mine was for elec test and repair on fixed and portable mil gear. so so long as its not replacing a fixed run of wiring (and working out the definition of that on a mobile units fun) or whole assemblies (junction boxes/ dist boards)I can swap like for like

[Homestar]

They are,but shouldn’t be relied on.

They also give you quite a big whack,before tripping,don’t ask me how I know.[bighmmm]

Yes, indeed they do... 😇

[drivesafe]

Most caravan parks have RCD breakers in there power poles these days.... and most homes. They probably save countless people each year (they sure are amazing devices!).
It is actually mandatory for ALL caravan parks to have RCDs fitted to all powered site supply outlets.

The problem is they are not inspected enough and are not correctly tested.

It is commonplace for the to be wired in reverse, to have defective RCDs and so on.

You are far better off making sure your own caravan is safe before you go near a caravan park.

[Blknight.aus]

as an opener for anyone in the melbish area who can line it up.

I have a good tester at work and if you're willing to make the effort to schedule it I'll run the tester on the van power for you.

All our guys now carry an Ampfibian

Compare | Bunnings Warehouse (https://www.bunnings.com.au/compare?products=7050115,7050104,7050105),

[Milton477]

I would recommend one of these RVD devices instead of a plain RCD. Residual Voltage Technology | Generators, Inverters, RVD-SAFE(R) Power Leads, RCD, RVD, Electrical Earth, Earthing, Electrical Safety, Wet Environments (https://www.rvdsafe.com.au/product/rvdsafe-emr/)
This thing protects against inverted wiring connections & also works when running van off a generator.

[goingbush]

Slightly off topic, Electric Vehicles are different again, When you look into the regulations VSB 14 / NCOP14 the high voltage wiring can be done by anyone 'competent' no mention of 'qualified' and I quote 'and executed in accordance with acceptable codes and standards.'

and "SPECIAL NOTESELECTRICAL INSTALLATIONS
Before starting construction of an electric vehicle some knowledge can be gained by reading
Australian/New Zealand Standard AS/NZS 3000:2000: Electrical installations (known as the Australian/New Zealand Wiring Rules), in particular, section 7.9 Hazardous Areas."

so apparently 'some knowledge' is all you need , then get your 240v side and charge cable test and tagged , your good to go.

So be careful whose EV you lean against :)

[rick130]

Should be national recognition for trades.I think that will only happen when we abolish the state's. [emoji849]

[V8Ian]

We now have national road rules, unfortunately we have seven different interpretation of them.:wallbash:

[mick88]

Technically a caravan is considered an appliance in Victoria so no, you don’t need to be licensed to do anything to them - ESV (Energy Safe Victoria) generally don’t want to know about anything that’s not hardwired to the mains. There is also no safety checks required on wiring or gas in Vic to register a van - it’s just treated as any other trailer. As long as the rear lights work, that’s pretty much it...

Having said that, I would strongly recommend using a Licensed Electrician to do the work, but I would say that wouldn’t I.

While changing an inlet on a van is pretty easy to do, would the DIY’er then check the health of the rest of the vans wiring after completing the work? I would.

As for transportable buildings, they are almost exclusively hard wired in Victoria so needs to be done by a Sparky and all wiring up to the applicable Standards - there’s about 3 of them that these fall under. Also need to be elec tested when on sites too, so I’d put them in a whole different category.

The comment regarding not using licensed people to wire up vans is correct - they pay their labour’s to do it. Most new vans wiring wouldn’t pass inspection if this was required - I’ve seen some pretty ordinary work.



To obtain a Victorian Roadworthy Certificate for our Motorhome in Victoria early last year, we were required to have an Electrical Safety Certificate for the 240 volt wiring, and a Gas Safety Certificate for the LPG works.

Cheers, Mick.

[Homestar]

To obtain a Victorian Roadworthy Certificate for our Motorhome in Victoria early last year, we were required to have an Electrical Safety Certificate for the 240 volt wiring, and a Gas Safety Certificate for the LPG works.

Cheers, Mick.

That's interesting - might be different requirements for a motor home as it needs a RWC whereas a trailer doesn't?

[DoubleChevron]

To obtain a Victorian Roadworthy Certificate for our Motorhome in Victoria early last year, we were required to have an Electrical Safety Certificate for the 240 volt wiring, and a Gas Safety Certificate for the LPG works.

Cheers, Mick.

I have never heard of such a thing. Is it a fresh import from UK/USA ? they do the crazy gas caper on imported caravans as we don't have the aussie standards label on them (obviously they aren't the identical LPG appliances sold everywhere else in the world ........... but not fitted iwth the aussies standards tags [bighmmm]).

[Homestar]

I have never heard of such a thing. Is it a fresh import from UK/USA ? they do the crazy gas caper on imported caravans as we don't have the aussie standards label on them (obviously they aren't the identical LPG appliances sold everywhere else in the world ........... but not fitted iwth the aussies standards tags [bighmmm]).

No, I’ve seen it - a locally built bus conversion, registered as a motor home.

[mick88]

As a follow up to this thread I recently emailed Vicroads and asked the question if a Gas and Electrical Safety Certificate are required for a RWC and I received the following reply today.
They also attached a copy of the Vehicle Standards for Motorhome Conversions.


"Thank you for enquiring about motorhomes.

When performing a roadworthy inspection a licenced vehicle tester will ask for evidence any gas or 240 volt electrical system comply with Australian Standards and are certified.

These standards are set out in Vehicle Standards Information 5 Conversion of Vehicles to Motor Homes. (attached)"

.

This extract below is from the attached Vehicle Standards Form:


Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) Installations All gas operated appliances installations must comply with the applicable requirements of Australian Standard AS 5601 – Gas Installations. In addition any specific installation requirements specified by the appliance manufacturer, such as ventilation, and minimum clearance requirements, must be complied with.

Electrical Installations Electrical installations must comply with Australian Standards AS – 3001 Electrical Installations – Movable premises (including caravans) and their site installations.

Cheers, Mick.

[Gav 110]

A question for the Licensed Electricians. I believe I know the answer but would like to hear it from someone WITH a ticket. On a caravan FB page I was reading about replacing the mains input point on their van. The usual suspects said "just do it ". After some discussion on legalities, someone stated that a license was not required to perform 240V work on caravans and transportable buildings in Victoria (at least).

Can anyone clarify ??

There you go POP058
MICK88 has just got it in writing from VicRoads
My interpretation is that you must use a licensed electrician to do electrical work as per the Australian/New Zealand standards
And also that Victoria is part of Australia [emoji12](the teachers at school didn’t bull****) who operate under the same rules as the rest of us

Gav