2014 Puma loss of clutch

[Samblers]

Asking for a friend... (no, really)...

His 2014 Puma 110 yesterday experienced loss of clutch, pedal to the floor, and was towed home last night. He described it as first going slightly soft/ vague... a lack of feel, then pedal to the floor. Sounds hydraulic to me. The pedal assembly is fine and cannot see any leaks around the clutch pedal box in the engine compartment.

Where to start diagnosing? ... before he goes to the expense of a tow truck to a local repairer (its not drivable)?

Cheers, Sam

[big harold]

Asking for a friend... (no, really)...

His 2014 Puma 110 yesterday experienced loss of clutch, pedal to the floor, and was towed home last night. He described it as first going slightly soft/ vague... a lack of feel, then pedal to the floor. Sounds hydraulic to me. The pedal assembly is fine and cannot see any leaks around the clutch pedal box in the engine compartment.

Where to start diagnosing? ... before he goes to the expense of a tow truck to a local repairer (its not drivable)?

Cheers, Sam
Slave cylinder will be toast.
Gearbox out job.
Updated slave cylinder available
Mark

[Samblers]

Roger. I'll break the bad news gently...

Is there anything that can be done to confirm this diagnosis... just in the street where the car is parked?

Sam

[big harold]

Roger. I'll break the bad news gently...

Is there anything that can be done to confirm this diagnosis... just in the street where the car is parked?

Sam
Not that I know off.
I had the same issue with mine changed the master first ended up being the slave.
When you remove it it will look ok but will be internally bypassing.
Mark

[alien]

Check the master cylinder for fluid. Ours did the same when the slave cylinder went during a trip, managed to keep fluid up with only 2 applications available before retoping again, I only used the clutch to start moving and changed gears with out using the pedal and out of gear when stoping.
While they have the box out check the adapter shaft. I also did a heavy duty clutch while the box was out more as a preventative measure.

[vnx205]

Is the slave cylinder on the Puma different from the 300tdi? It is a simple job on my Defender to replace the slave cylinder without taking the gearbox out.

[scarry]

Is the slave cylinder on the Puma different from the 300tdi? It is a simple job on my Defender to replace the slave cylinder without taking the gearbox out.

Yes completely different,out with everything to get to it.[bigsad]

Gearbox,transfer case,etc

A PITA.

A lot of newer vehicles are like this,a Ford design

[Robmacca]

Asking for a friend... (no, really)...

His 2014 Puma 110 yesterday experienced loss of clutch, pedal to the floor, and was towed home last night. He described it as first going slightly soft/ vague... a lack of feel, then pedal to the floor. Sounds hydraulic to me. The pedal assembly is fine and cannot see any leaks around the clutch pedal box in the engine compartment.

Where to start diagnosing? ... before he goes to the expense of a tow truck to a local repairer (its not drivable)?

Cheers, Sam

How many kms are on the vehicle? I recently had my clutch fail on my old tdi300. The pedal would go to the floor and come back up as per normal but I was unable to change gears - Problem turned out to be 3 of the 6 springs falling out. The springs ended up between the clutch plate and the pressure plate and clutch thus preventing the clutch from working...

Is this a possibility with the Pumas?

[ian4002000]

i lost the clutch fluid as well a year ago. Mine 130 is a 2012 model with 100 K's on it.
The slave cylinder/ thrust bearing assembly had failed. The clutch was rattling so this was changed at the same time. Dont forget to do the gearbox output shaft if it hasn't already been done.
Was a great way to get rid of lots of dollars but the clutch is much lighter since and the vehicle drives great. A change of gearbox oil helped the gearbox and i will regularly change the gearbox oil from now on.

Ian
Bittern

[Samblers]

Thanks for replies all. Its a 2014 Puma with low km's (not mine, so i don't know, but guessing 50K). I'll talk with my mate and advise him to get all the other usual clutch wear parts replaced at the same time.

From the sound of it I don't suspect clutch plate springs... much more likely hydraulic system.

Just a query for my own interest... is the gearbox/ transfer case removal something that can be done at home by a competent mechanic and a jack? Or special tools and stuff required?

I presume of the hefty price tag that almost all of it is the labour to remove the gb/tf case and not much for the actual replacement of the parts.

Sam

[ian4002000]

i think i was quoted around 20 hours labour by Ritters. It will be difficult and heavy as the transfer case and gearbox have to come out. I reckon i could have done mine on a hoist with a transmission lifter but, it would have taken me at least a week ( 40 Hours ) but i didnt have time or energy.

Ps Ritters also changed the clutch master cylinder to ensure all will work well for another 100k's or more.
and the clutch is working great.

Ian
Bittern

[scarry]

Ps Ritters also changed the clutch master cylinder to ensure all will work well for another 100k's or more.
and the clutch is working great.

Ian
Bittern

What i can't believe is these LR parts only last this sort of mileage,or less.
One of reasons the Defender in my sig is going.Its had the clutch,master cylinder,transfer case,gearbox seals,output shaft,etc,etc,etc.

We have 4 work vans ATM,all bought new,manuals,two have over 300 000k on them,one has 170K,one98K.Brand you can guess.
None have had anything done to the engine, drivetrain,clutch components,suspension,or brakes.
Just regular services,batteries,and tyres.
Mostly driven around town and loaded almost on GVM.

Sure they don't go off road,but nor do a lot of Defenders.

[ian4002000]

Yes the lifespan of some of these parts is very disappointing, My 130 has had long runs all its life and is not a daily driver in a city, i was very suprised to find the clutch fluid gone.
I am even more disappointed with the clutch plate as it was the clutch plate springs that failed, and someone designed it with some very little springs in it which just seems stupid to me.
My old tractor still has the original clutch plate after 55 years and it had done a lot more work than my 130 ever will.

Ian
Bittern

[Samblers]

Mate had Defender towed to garage today. Yep, slave cylinder is cactus.

Interested to find out what he gets quoted.

[pjh4159]

What i can't believe is these LR parts only last this sort of mileage,or less.
One of reasons the Defender in my sig is going.Its had the clutch,master cylinder,transfer case,gearbox seals,output shaft,etc,etc,etc.

We have 4 work vans ATM,all bought new,manuals,two have over 300 000k on them,one has 170K,one98K.Brand you can guess.
None have had anything done to the engine, drivetrain,clutch components,suspension,or brakes.
Just regular services,batteries,and tyres.
Mostly driven around town and loaded almost on GVM.

Sure they don't go off road,but nor do a lot of Defenders.
Many of these items you have replaced are made by other well known parts manufacturers, I had to replace my clutch recently as it was slipping and I was thinking an oil seal weep but no it wasn't.
When I removed the clutch/ pressure plate I was surprised to see no sign of oil contamination and I could still see the brand stamp across the clutch lining as there was next to no wear at all.so why had it started slipping?
The reason was the pressure plate springs had weakened on a vehicle that had only done 120,000 klms and very little city driving, the brand of clutch was the well know Valeo, needless to say I will never use this brand again.
The moral of the story in that in many cases it is the outside parts suppliers to landrover that are the weak points and not the vehicle maker!

[scarry]

Many of these items you have replaced are made by other well known parts manufacturers, I had to replace my clutch recently as it was slipping and I was thinking an oil seal weep but no it wasn't.
When I removed the clutch/ pressure plate I was surprised to see no sign of oil contamination and I could still see the brand stamp across the clutch lining as there was next to no wear at all.so why had it started slipping?
The reason was the pressure plate springs had weakened on a vehicle that had only done 120,000 klms and very little city driving, the brand of clutch was the well know Valeo, needless to say I will never use this brand again.
The moral of the story in that in many cases it is the outside parts suppliers to landrover that are the weak points and not the vehicle maker!

We will have to agree to disagree.

Many of these issues occur with parts fitted to the new vehicle,as has happened to the Deefer in my sig.And a huge number of others on this site.
And on others with OEM,genuine LR parts.

At a guess I would think the manufacturer would know what type of quality the parts they fit to vehicles would be?And their genuine spares?

The work vehicles I was talking about also have numerous parts that are sourced from different manufacturers.
I would suggest,from my experience and from many others on here,that these manufacturers fit much better quality parts to their vehicles,and their spare parts are also of that quality.

Surely LR can do the same?

In fact if you look at OEM,genuine clutches for the Puma range of Defenders,there has been numerous OEM part number changes for the clutch assembly over the years.And they are still having issues.Surely the vehicle manufacturer has to take the blame,quality control and design is their issue,as much as the parts supplier.
Surely the vehicle manufacturers parts have to be designed to a particular specification?

After 70 years plus,surely LR should have had these issues sorted.

Anyway,moving on,thankfully the later LR vehicles and their parts generally are a much better quality,than the last Defender run,as an example.

[DazzaTD5]

*Common failure on a Defender TDCi (puma).
*The clutch slave and throw/release bearing are a complete unit, full hydraulic, which gives them a light clutch pedal when compared to older Defender models.
*If its done round 50K (I say to customers 70K on wards) then the adapter shaft between the gearbox and transfer case is about to fail anyway, so do that at the same time.
The updated release bearing/slave, hydraulic valve should be installed (listed below), these seem to resolve the slave failure.
*AND, due to the amount of failures now on the 2.2 I would suggest a new clutch assembly (cover, plate) as they now seem to be failing like the 2.4.

DEFENDER TDCI PUMA 2.4 2.2 CLUTCH
LR068981 Adapter
LR068979 Cylinder - Clutch Slave
LR068982 Valve - Control
LR048731 SACHS CLUTCH ASSEMBLY

Adapter shaft MT82 kit from Ashcroft

Cost: complete clutch job round $2000
add cost if done at same time: adapter shaft kit round $900

P.S and don't be suckered into "it needs a gearbox or transfer case rebuild" This is rarely the case on the Defender TDCi (puma) model with low km's.
I would trust Rovertech as the only other Land Rover repairer in Perth.

[Juff]

Has he heard on price yet Samblers??

Pretty sure my slave is on the way out. I felt a soft clutch and pulled over, no fluid in reservoir, topped it up and while it feels different it’s still working. There is a drain on the bottom of the bell housing where you can seen the fluid dripping out. (for future reference??)

I’d be interested to hear how it goes, I’m still 750km away from home and hoping it’s gonna make it back....

So the new slaves are better/last longer??

With 90,000km on the clock should I be gong a new clutch as well?

(already got the Ashcroft output shaft)

Thanks for all the info thus far!!

J

[DazzaTD5]

So the new slaves are better/last longer??

With 90,000km on the clock should I be gong a new clutch as well?




Yes, all as per my last post

[4bee]

Interesting. Some of you may wonder why I scornfully laugh at the Overseas Road Tests that Land Rover carry out prior to release of a new model. "Built for Australian conditions", is one that was bandied about. My arse!

"Junkets/Jollies for the lads" would be the more appropriate description. Isn't this the reason they do these trips, to sort out possible weaknesses so new Owners like you don't have to? I assume the vehicles & components are stripped right down when they are back in the U.K. or is that just my wishful thinking. If not, it negates the expense & possible feedback of such journeys.


"This pressure plate, (choose component) Stan, it looks like it wouldn't last a reasonable distance, I'll recommend a better one in my extensive report".

Naive? Moi?


Just sayin'.[wink11]

[Robmacca]

"This Valeo pressure plate, (choose component) Stan, it looks like it wouldn't last a reasonable distance, I'll recommend a better one in my extensive report".

Naive? Moi?


Just sayin'.[wink11]

Is this Valeo pressure plate renowned for failing is it?

rob

[4bee]

No idea, I picked it out of the above posts but it may or may not be. I can change it if you wish. DONE.

[Robmacca]

No idea, I picked it out of the above posts but it may or may not be. I can change it if you wish. DONE.

lol... no its just that I'm about to install one of those clutches into my old Defender... U had me worried ;)

[4bee]

Ah, sorry to put the ****s up you Rob, I'm sure Valeo are ok as there must be millions in use around the world. If not, I'm sure someone here will tell you different if it isn't.

[smilebigeye]

[DazzaTD5]

R & D on the Defender model has always been hit and miss, extensive field testing prolly floated around zero.
The clutch assembly was straight out of the FoMoCo (Ford) parts bin.
The adapter shaft between the Ford MT82 gearbox and Land Rover LT230 transfer case was a poorly half engineered item that clearly worked on the design table.
The most basic of R & D would have highlighted an issue with it. Hell I think some basic engineering thought would have highlighted an issue with it.

Pull apart numerous Jeep models that use a adapter shaft between whatever gearbox and the Jeep transfer case and it wont be worn out, even after 20 years.
*The shafts often a support bearing on either end.
*Are harder on the rockwell scale (round 50 from memory).
*Tighter fitting splines.
*Will last the life of the vehicle (despite also being installed dry).

[4bee]

I rest my case M'lud.
[smilebigeye]
If Manufacturers cannot get the 'Basic' Engineering right what hope has any vehicle got so it will last a reasonable time & be reliable as they become more sophisticated?.


Oh hang on, I see a flaw in my argument,[biggrin]

[Juff]

Just spoke to a mechanic about my slave cylinder issue. Asked about a new clutch while he’s in there, he uses AP Driveline (genuine?).
Are they any good now - issues been fixed or they dodgy and I’ll regret it?

[4bee]

Interesting thread here from the UK.

I suppose Robmacca will want to bang my ears around now. [bigsad]

Valeo. Borg and Beck, AP Driveline - Defender Forum - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum


Not suprisngly you also get a couple of opinions from our Rick & that has to be worth money.[biggrin]
(https://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/42802-valeo-borg-and-beck-ap-driveline/)

[Robmacca]

Interesting thread here from the UK.

I suppose Robmacca will want to bang my ears around now. [bigsad]

Valeo. Borg and Beck, AP Driveline - Defender Forum - LR4x4 - The Land Rover Forum


Not suprisngly you also get a couple of opinions from our Rick & that has to be worth money.[biggrin]
(https://forums.lr4x4.com/topic/42802-valeo-borg-and-beck-ap-driveline/)

That thread is some 10 years old so and some said the valeo HD was ok... who really knows but its what I got so I'll see how long it lasts for...

[DazzaTD5]

Not a problem, I used the AP Driveline clutch for many years before switching to the SACHS brand ones. (dont bother with the Genuine one, clearly they didnt get it right).

[ATH]

When the stealer changed the g/box/transfer case I forget which under warranty years ago on my 2010 Defender, I asked the service foreman to ensure the adaptor shaft was greased...... "It is not a service item" he said in a subcontinent shop accent.
So there ya go, a bit of grease is too much for them.
AlanH.

[Juff]

I’ve just gotten it back from the mechanic, slave was gone and bearing was leaking as well apparently.
Clutch springs were loose.
Parts changed as per DazzaTD5’s list.

Cost just under $2000.

(Thanks very much DazzaTD5 for the advice!!!)

[Samblers]

My mate ended up paying $1600 for the job to replace the slave cylinder. He doesn't post on here but I pointed him toward the thread and the recommendations to replace other parts whilst they were at it, but he passed. His choice.

It wasn't Rovertech who did the work but some other Land Rover guy, possibly near Bibra Lake?

Thanks for all the posts.

[DazzaTD5]

My mate ended up paying $1600 for the job to replace the slave cylinder. He doesn't post on here but I pointed him toward the thread and the recommendations to replace other parts whilst they were at it, but he passed. His choice.

It wasn't Rovertech who did the work but some other Land Rover guy, possibly near Bibra Lake?

Thanks for all the posts.

You can lead a Defender TDCi owner to a new clutch and all the bits but ya can't make them put it in [bigrolf]

So the slave gets done, then the clutch takes a dump later on and it gets done, then the adapter shaft goes later on and it gets done. So you end up paying for 3 lots of labour to remove/fit gearbox. Doesnt really make a lot of sense now does it.

Anyway, if your mate can't even coff up $11 per year for a AULRO subscription, then well more fool him [tonguewink]