The New Defender: Diesel vs Petrol

[DiscoDB]

Interested in people’s views on the initial engine choices and what you would pick.

Normally I would go for Diesel over Petrol any day but with diesels getting smaller and more complicated when it comes to emission controls I am not so sure these days. Would have been nice if they had included a 3L 6 cyl Diesel option from the start but maybe this will come later.

As it is at present, the 3L petrol engine is looking like a great option.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191004/015b6186c2fe297dde53ee55377ec38f.jpg

[cjc_td5]

First time I have seen some fuel economy figures. So 24mpg is about 12l/100km? If so the P400 petrol is looking ok.

[scarry]

Can you get 18” OEM rims to fit the vehicle with P400 petrol?

[DiscoDB]

First time I have seen some fuel economy figures. So 24mpg is about 12l/100km? If so the P400 petrol is looking ok.

Shows potential - but of course this assumes you are not racing everyone off the lights - which I imagine would be hard to avoid.

WLTP testing limits acceleration to 1.6m/s2 - so 0-100kph takes 15.5s - so like being stuck in traffic behind a stock TD5 Disco!

I agree though the P400 looks promising.

[DiscoDB]

Can you get 18” OEM rims to fit the vehicle with P400 petrol?

Seems not - the P400 has larger brakes so the 18” OEM rims won’t fit - which is a negative in my mind as well.

[Xtreme]

Naturally the most powerful motor is appealing but (& I'm thinking of a touring vehicle) does one need that much power & torque at the cost of a 20% reduction in available range?

[RobA]

Can you get 18” OEM rims to fit the vehicle with P400 petrol?

Having checked the configurator in Oz and UK the short answer is no it seems. Reason being rim and tyre size seems directly linked to engine capacity which is no great surprise. Nothing on the diesel 6 yet but expect the same is my view.

Yes petrol 6 looks OK if you don't tow a lot nor drive a fully loaded car around all the time. IMHO the 4cyl diesel would be fine for general touring and the odd Simpson crossing etc. As well as fitting probably most people's needs for a daily drive as well. Whereas we travel 3-5 months each year towing our AOR camper (2500kg) so diesel 6 is what we are waiting for.

We have specced what we want, less the diesel, and are waiting for indicative pricing to come back. I drove an LC200 VX yesterday just to refresh my memory and that experience keeps me on this side of the fence ATM

Rob

[Gregz]

Have to agree.... these diesels look a bit puny, same 430 NM as a Pajero Sport. From other reports, the P400 engine does not suffer any turbo lag either with the mild hybrid assisting from take off. Also with IP6x water proofing of all components and wading (float away) depth of 900mm, there appears to be no advantage to diesels of not having spark plugs etc. Just be prepared to pay a bit extra for the increased fuel use.
I am wondering if service times will increase (for both diesel and petrol) if they have to remove water-proofing to get to components and then put it back again later?

[DiscoDB]

The D200 and P300 would have to be non-starters in my mind. I assume these are targeting fleet or company buyers and just to lower the starting price before you spec up to a higher level.

[scarry]

Seems not - the P400 has larger brakes so the 18” OEM rims won’t fit - which is a negative in my mind as well.

Maybe aftermarket,if not, it won’t be in my driveway.
Some say run a 20” and go oversize,to get more sidewall,but that’s not what I want to do.

The diesels in my opinion are a bit lacking,the vehicle will be almost as heavy as my D4.

And going by D5 reports,with same Diesel engine,fuel economy not fantastic.
In fact it’s very similar to a late model D4,8apeed,with a heap less power and torque.

The smaller diesel will probably not sell well and be dropped,as happened with D5.

[DiscoDB]

I just noticed the P300 is not an option on the Australian configurator. So that is one non-starter confirmed.

[DiscoDB]

Maybe aftermarket,if not, it won’t be in my driveway.
Some say run a 20” and go oversize,to get more sidewall,but that’s not what I want to do.

The diesels in my opinion are a bit lacking,the vehicle will be almost as heavy as my D4.

And going by D5 reports,with same Diesel engine,fuel economy not fantastic.
In fact it’s very similar to a late model D4,8apeed,with a heap less power and torque.

The smaller diesel will probably not sell well and be dropped,as happened with D5.

The diesels have pretty much gone back to D3 TDV6 levels of torque but acceleration performance is on par with the V8 so maybe we are underestimating how they will perform.

[scarry]

The diesels have pretty much gone back to D3 TDV6 levels of torque but acceleration performance is on par with the V8 so maybe we are underestimating how they will perform.

Yes we may be underestimating them,the torque and power curves would be good to see,and compare them to the TDV6.

But the 2.7 D3/4 was easily tuned,as mine is,but I doubt that can be done to the smaller engines,although we will have to wait and see.They may have been ‘tuned ‘ as far as they can go by the manufacturer.

Maybe someone with a D5 that runs the 240 diesel will tune in.

[DiscoDB]

The D240 engine in the Range Rover Velar has 500Nm - same as the SD4 in the 2019 Discovery Sport. Both have the same power.

So it appears the Defender D240 has been de-tuned at the bottom end of the rev range to bring the torque back down to 430Nm and the D200 further de-tuned at the top end to reduce the max power.

[Slunnie]

Interested in people’s views on the initial engine choices and what you would pick.

Normally I would go for Diesel over Petrol any day but with diesels getting smaller and more complicated when it comes to emission controls I am not so sure these days. Would have been nice if they had included a 3L 6 cyl Diesel option from the start but maybe this will come later.

As it is at present, the 3L petrol engine is looking like a great option.



Why do you think Diesels are more complex than Petrols? I don't think they have anything thats too different between them these days.

D200 looks reundant to me. Cant see a reason to have it in the line up apart from having a dutuned option to charge for the D240.


Naturally the most powerful motor is appealing but (& I'm thinking of a touring vehicle) does one need that much power & torque at the cost of a 20% reduction in available range?

The P400 would be my choice of that lot. With increased size comes low down power/torque. That lugability that big engines have when the're down low in the revs and off boost. I guess with that engine a long range fuel tank would be coming with it also. :lol2:

Actually, the 6cyl diesel would be my choice. Hopefully if it turns up it will be a good motor.

[jon3950]

Naturally the most powerful motor is appealing but (& I'm thinking of a touring vehicle) does one need that much power & torque at the cost of a 20% reduction in available range?

And that’s just on-road. My biggest concern would be its range off-road.

I’d much rather have a diesel touring vehicle, so for me I think it would be the D240.

Cheers,
Jon

[greg-g]

I’ve seen no comments about storage space in the new Defenders, but I believe the P400 loses the rear storage compartment to batteries and their controller.

Lack of a decent storage space is one of my main gripes about my 7 seat D5, but if I go travelling I’ll probably remove the 3rd row seats.

[scarry]

Why do you think Diesels are more complex than Petrols? I don't think they have anything thats too different between them these days.

Particularly this Ingenium petrol 6.

Its direct injected,as most are,but its also turbo and supercharged,so seems highly complicated.

Coupled with a small fuel tank,not much of a tug.

Its not an engine design like,for example,the V8 in the Y62.

[Slunnie]

Particularly this Ingenium petrol 6.

Its direct injected,as most are,but its also turbo and supercharged,so seems highly complicated.

Coupled with a small fuel tank,not much of a tug.

Its not an engine design like,for example,the V8 in the Y62.

Ahhh, I didn't realise it was turbo and supercharged.

[1nando]

Having checked the configurator in Oz and UK the short answer is no it seems. Reason being rim and tyre size seems directly linked to engine capacity which is no great surprise. Nothing on the diesel 6 yet but expect the same is my view.

Yes petrol 6 looks OK if you don't tow a lot nor drive a fully loaded car around all the time. IMHO the 4cyl diesel would be fine for general touring and the odd Simpson crossing etc. As well as fitting probably most people's needs for a daily drive as well. Whereas we travel 3-5 months each year towing our AOR camper (2500kg) so diesel 6 is what we are waiting for.

We have specced what we want, less the diesel, and are waiting for indicative pricing to come back. I drove an LC200 VX yesterday just to refresh my memory and that experience keeps me on this side of the fence ATM

RobOut of curiosity how heavy is your van, what is towing it and what economy are you getting?

[1nando]

Particularly this Ingenium petrol 6.

Its direct injected,as most are,but its also turbo and supercharged,so seems highly complicated.

Coupled with a small fuel tank,not much of a tug.

Its not an engine design like,for example,the V8 in the Y62.DIG today is not an issue; some early DIG engines had potential intake valve carbon build up issues.
Vehciles like the y62 have been around for 10 plus years and there is no reported valve deposit issue. None! Unlike modern diesel engines with egrs and all the other crap on them.

In my opinion there is nothing simpler today then a NA v8 petrol on the market. Emphasis on me referring to engines available today. Not old school diesels which are worlds apart from today's.

I will eventually buy this new defender with the petrol engine however I do agree that it is a extremely complicated engine. But the diesels look just as bad if you ask me. I would have preferred a simple turbo straight six pertol without all the BS!

[DiscoDB]

Why do you think Diesels are more complex than Petrols? I don't think they have anything thats too different between them these days.

It is the emission controls that I don’t like on the modern diesels. To get them to burn clean and soot free so they are acceptable in the cities seems to take a lot more effort but I do admit I am coming from a point of ignorance as the technical details on the engines is very limited at present.

[Disco-tastic]

Particularly this Ingenium petrol 6.

Its direct injected,as most are,but its also turbo and supercharged,so seems highly complicated.

Coupled with a small fuel tank,not much of a tug.

Its not an engine design like,for example,the V8 in the Y62.Imagine a new defender with the Y62 donk! I think that would be pretty perfect.

[1nando]

Imagine a new defender with the Y62 donk! I think that would be pretty perfect.It's a shame the limited edition v8 was only made right at the end as a one off.

[Pickles2]

400hp in a 90 sounds just my cup of tea!
Pickles.

[RobA]

Out of curiosity how heavy is your van, what is towing it and what economy are you getting?

OK
Camper is an AOR + which comes in at 2500kg. We're normally around the 2450kg mark fully loaded

Towing with a MY15 TDV6

Economy.
Bitumen normally around the speed limit is an average of 15.7l per 100km. In really bad conditions like 60kph+ headwinds we can hit low 20's. We always have a fully roof platform for remote travel
Off bitumen. Varies depending on conditions but our planning figure/average is 18l per 100km

These figures have not varied outside of their normal range for the last tow years and 50,000km all of which has been towing

We spend 3-5 months each year travelling remotely

Rob

[blackrangie]

Maybe aftermarket,if not, it won’t be in my driveway.
Some say run a 20” and go oversize,to get more sidewall,but that’s not what I want to do.

The diesels in my opinion are a bit lacking,the vehicle will be almost as heavy as my D4.

And going by D5 reports,with same Diesel engine,fuel economy not fantastic.
In fact it’s very similar to a late model D4,8apeed,with a heap less power and torque.

The smaller diesel will probably not sell well and be dropped,as happened with D5.D5 came with 19s and 18s fitted aftermarket.

We just have to ask LR what equivalent model d5 the straight 6 petrol brakes are.

Let us know

[blackrangie]

Particularly this Ingenium petrol 6.

Its direct injected,as most are,but its also turbo and supercharged,so seems highly complicated.

Coupled with a small fuel tank,not much of a tug.

Its not an engine design like,for example,the V8 in the Y62.90L is not small imo to be fair for a stock tank.

750km range @ 12L/100

Aftermarket tanks are already avail for D5

[blackrangie]

Imagine a new defender with the Y62 donk! I think that would be pretty perfect.Imo they will do an svx version with bmw v8, if and when they do, ill sell and buy if fuel economy is reasonable.

Having said that the straight 6 is almost up there in v8 land, im sure it will be reasonably reliable considering their testing, if not we have warranty and au consumer guarantee.

[Bellytanker]

I am waiting for the rumoured all electric version. I reckon that will be a cracker.

[rick130]

DIG today is not an issue; some early DIG engines had potential intake valve carbon build up issues.
Vehciles like the y62 have been around for 10 plus years and there is no reported valve deposit issue. None! Unlike modern diesel engines with egrs and all the other crap on them.

In my opinion there is nothing simpler today then a NA v8 petrol on the market. Emphasis on me referring to engines available today. Not old school diesels which are worlds apart from today's.

I will eventually buy this new defender with the petrol engine however I do agree that it is a extremely complicated engine. But the diesels look just as bad if you ask me. I would have preferred a simple turbo straight six pertol without all the BS!The big problem with DI in petrol engines is fuel dilution of the oil, or at least used to be.

[INter674]

Fact: modern diesels are trouble!!

Perhaps wht they've brought back a petrol option?

Even mighty Toyota can't make a modern diesel that runs like the old ones ie for 500000ks. Service and repair costs will chew up any fuel savings too...IMHO😎

Go the petrol. BTW superchargers are v common . They are v effective and simple and reliable too.

[blackrangie]

I am waiting for the rumoured all electric version. I reckon that will be a cracker.Hybrid was seen at frankfurt, I believe released 2020, that would be good for AU for range.

Notice the plug in and left side "fuel" flaphttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191009/234f861c4ca7bf1ba4e705ad1903e071.jpg

[shanegtr]

Im not really much of a fan for long term ownership of modern diesels, so I would now be leaning more towards petrol. I've only brought my cars second hand and generally keep them as long as possible (last couple where forcibly removed due to being written off:censored:)

[knp]

I dunno but the elephant in the room for me is it looks too much like an FJ Cruiser (please excuse the blasphemy)
Not really a fan of any of the engine options especially a turbo and super-charged diesel? (did I read that correctly?)
Been thinking about upgrading the Disco lately but there's really nothing anywhere that I like _and_ that I can justify the $$$$$$ spend.

Anyway I really like my 2003 Td5 D2a very much even after 16yrs. Yes all things plastic etc are breaking but it is still such a lovely vehicle.
I'ts due for new tyres next year and I'd like to replace the driver's seat but that's minor compared to new car costs these days.
It still has less than 150000km on the clock so not driven much but it's towed plenty when we go away.
I think the Disco will remain our tow vehicle for quite while yet.

Cheers
Peter

[Melbourne Park]

OK
Camper is an AOR + which comes in at 2500kg. We're normally around the 2450kg mark fully loaded

Towing with a MY15 TDV6

Economy.
Bitumen normally around the speed limit is an average of 15.7l per 100km. In really bad conditions like 60kph+ headwinds we can hit low 20's. We always have a fully roof platform for remote travel
Off bitumen. Varies depending on conditions but our planning figure/average is 18l per 100km

These figures have not varied outside of their normal range for the last tow years and 50,000km all of which has been towing

We spend 3-5 months each year travelling remotely

Rob
I've not weighed mine and we don't use our AOR Matrix much but we did three weeks this year, two weeks on dirt. I'm running on the 18" alloy wheels 265/65 KO2s and the economy has been pretty good, but its speed dependent. On dirt roads at 70 kmh I was getting 13l/100. But I play with the transmission a bit to keep its revs down, it makes a difference. On bad roads its easy not to do that though.

I'd like to keep my D4; I bought my petrol 3.4 Prado in 1997 and its still going well. The interior lights don't work though. My major concern with LR is if it breaks down, getting it towed out, and a bush repair is out of the question. But with Toyotas the bush also don't have most parts and you had to wait too ... but a Toyota should be able to be fixed in the bush, although I reckon an older 70 series would be a heck of a lot easier than today's 200s. Which I don't like to drive.

The current V6 diesel seems a great engine IMO and short motors are becoming affordable now ... the thing that worries me about the new Defender is the lack of a chassis when towing. Vw, Mercedes, Ford - their delivery vans are still using a chassis. And they don't even tow. I am skeptical from a physics point of view about the advantages of a monocoque when towing 2 or more tonnes.

[RobA]

I've not weighed mine and we don't use our AOR Matrix much but we did three weeks this year, two weeks on dirt. I'm running on the 18" alloy wheels 265/65 KO2s and the economy has been pretty good, but its speed dependent. On dirt roads at 70 kmh I was getting 13l/100. But I play with the transmission a bit to keep its revs down, it makes a difference. On bad roads its easy not to do that though.

I'd like to keep my D4; I bought my petrol 3.4 Prado in 1997 and its still going well. The interior lights don't work though. My major concern with LR is if it breaks down, getting it towed out, and a bush repair is out of the question. But with Toyotas the bush also don't have most parts and you had to wait too ... but a Toyota should be able to be fixed in the bush, although I reckon an older 70 series would be a heck of a lot easier than today's 200s. Which I don't like to drive.

The current V6 diesel seems a great engine IMO and short motors are becoming affordable now ... the thing that worries me about the new Defender is the lack of a chassis when towing. Vw, Mercedes, Ford - their delivery vans are still using a chassis. And they don't even tow. I am skeptical from a physics point of view about the advantages of a monocoque when towing 2 or more tonnes.

I have complete faith in the D4. Given its duty cycle over the last 4.8 years and the sort of terrain we have travelled through over extended periods the car has never put a foot wrong and along the way been as reliable as all the LC200's we have travelled with but, on average, 20% more fuel efficient. An aircraft is a monocoque and WW2 fighters pretty much all were and they were pulling a lot of G's in combat plus plenty of buffeting. As our modern jets are made from composite fibre, along with ships like hovercraft and mine sweepers I have never felt the need to doubt the technology and I would think the operators would be very comfortable with the engineering and physics as the consequences of failure are somewhat higher than almost everything else on the planet

In fact on reflection we have experienced plenty of minor niggles with our AOR Q+ compared to the D4

Rob

[Melbourne Park]

... An aircraft is a monocoque and WW2 fighters pretty much all were and they were pulling a lot of G's in combat plus plenty of buffeting.

...

..LC200's we have travelled with but, on average, 20% more fuel efficient. An aircraft is a monocoque and WW2 fighters pretty much all were and they were pulling a lot of G's in combat plus plenty of buffeting. As our modern jets are made from composite fibre, along with ships like hovercraft and mine sweepers I have never felt the need to doubt ...
In fact on reflection we have experienced plenty of minor niggles with our AOR Q+ compared to the D4.


Rob


Hey Rob. As to reliability of AOR, niggles are part of any job lot manufacture IMO. But the chassis of the AOR is probably its most important feature IMO and it's seems bullet proof. Most of the stuff that goes wrong in mine is due to the article failing from another manufacturer, not to AOR. I had a kink in a hose that played havoc but it was something that happened by not using the van and also such things can develop in hand built operations. AOR resprayed my front and roof due to a 3M material that failed and AOR picked up the considerable bill that was solely due to 3M who walked away. 'nuff said ..

As to the WWII fighters - my Dad - a 4th generation Australian - died 8 years ago but he flew Spitfires and Typhoons in the WWII. The Typhoon engine was over 2000 HP - it had 4 straight 8s with a central crankshaft. It was fast too - quicker than any Spitfire in a straight line.


My Dad destroyed a Spitfire when he went to 42000 feet on empty tanks and did a vertical dive with the throttle open, He pulled out at 14,000 feet and blacked out with the throttle pulled back to keep the plane level a(he'd tried this before at lower altitudes). He came to consciousness and could see the instruments again - but the altimeter kept spinning down. At 300 feet the plane stopped decending. The CO called him in next day and said that he'd ruined his plane - the rivets along the Spit's wings were popped, the plane deformed, and also on the body work things were wrecked. As punishment he was shipped off into combat. He did all that in training. He flew Typhoons in combat. But the life of those planes weren't that long. Plus the endurance of a fighter plane in WWII was very short. In the Typhoon, Dad was in the air for only 50 minutes a mission. He was more than likely to be shot down once in every 5 missions. So fatigue wasn't a fighter plane issue in WWII it seems to me. And failures happened although most were due to flack and to a lesser extent other aircraft.

My trained nurse Mum flew as an air hostess in Australian National Airline Douglas DC4s in the late 1940s Melbourne to Vancouver, rock hopping from Australia and then landing somewhere after hawaii for re-fueling to get to LA, then onto Vancouver. It took a week including for her a 4 day stop over in Honolulu. That DC4 was I think the same as the military C-54. However the tails fell off 'em. They sure fatigued but in wartime if a plane crashed it wasn't blamed on fatigue and even if they knew it was fatigue, it was wartime and they'd have flown the plane anyway. The Comet failed due to fatigue issues and Boeing people later said that but for the Comet lessons learned, the 707 would have had major fatigue issues. Although the dumb thing about the Comet was it's square windows which would fail due to fatigue around them causing the corners to open up. If they'd put in oval windows in the British Comet then it seems the 707 would have had major fatigue issues.

They've always used rivets for large alloy passenger planes - I have always presumed they aid expansion contraction issues hence fatigue issues. Rivets aren't aero dynamic so why have them? IMO less fatigue prone than welds, cheaper to build than welding and its easier to replace a fatigued part of the plane by removing the rivets and putting in a fresh part of the plane. When composite shows fatigue issues you just glue some composite over the top - they have to do that on carbon racing yachts often.

I notice that Ford, Mercedes, VW, etc etc still use a chassis for their transit vans etc. And they don't even tow. And the reason that the new Defender is light is IMO because its alloy - not just because of its monocoque. I wonder how much lighter an alloy body on a D4 might have been? And throw in some carbon fibre here and there too? And some magnesium for good measure? And keep the chassis ... the cost accountants would have rejected it though for Just In Time reasons plus building multiple vehicles from a single platform is the recipe car makers want to stick to nowadays. The Camry is a Rav is a Corrolla etc. etc.

I do wonder if LR had of put a flat square of carbon fibre with a kevlar outer layer from the tow bar to the front of the new Defender, and some similarly ultra light cross beams to also be a base for the front for a bull bar attachments and at the rear for some wheels etc., and some rubber connections to the monocoque underneath via those light composite cross bars - how much happier I'd have felt. Something like that would have cost maybe 10-15kg plus some rubber and bolts I reckon. And would have distributed the tow and extras stress more evenly across the monocoque. But if a designer had of shown that concept to a manager he'd have said the D4 concept is dead son and I've got orders that we can enhance the current floorpan design but that essentially we are not allowed to change it. So instead they fell back on the "we need to weld it better then" , it seems to me.

[PeterJ]

so, does anyone know if the petrol motor will need 91, 95 or good grief I hope not, 98 RON. Seems to me a big factor in availability and running costs.
Peter

[1nando]

so, does anyone know if the petrol motor will need 91, 95 or good grief I hope not, 98 RON. Seems to me a big factor in availability and running costs.
PeterIt will more than likely run on e10, 95 and 98. To sell in the states the engines must be e10 compliant.

[DiscoDB]

Let the games begin!

This is from a dealer.154962https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191014/4bd00bcbafe1d2e0b8add788bf289ba1.jpg



So now that we have seen the RRP does this change the Diesel vs Petrol point of view?

$6K premium for an extra 30kW from base model D200 to D240!

And a further $12K premium for P400 over D240 in S spec.

Ouch - suddenly the base spec D200 is looking the pick of the bunch.

Bring on the re-mapping!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191015/c645a2c50d8b08d76a1f2298e504e939.jpg

[Rob66]

Why not save thousands and if you're really keen on more power get a tune or a plug-in kit in it??
D200, D240 have been around for years in Rangies and Disco's. Lots of upgrade options out there.

[blackrangie]

What current JLR vehicles run the same d240 engine at similar power levels, wouldn't mind test driving one before I make final call on engine choice.

[DiscoDB]

I believe the cheapest base spec Disco uses the same D240.

[blackrangie]

Can someone convince me why the d240 is a better choice that the petrol 6 other than the obvious 18inch wheels are definite.
Planning to head to dealer tomorrow to finalize order. [emoji41]

[cjc_td5]

Can someone convince me why the d240 is a better choice that the petrol 6 other than the obvious 18inch wheels are definite.
Planning to head to dealer tomorrow to finalize order. [emoji41]

There seems to be about 12K reasons.....

[SpudHeadTed]

I’d go for the base model diesel 200 and spend the $5k on T2 and other bits.
It’s the same size engine Defenders have always had. A remap will be available pretty fast to take it safely up to the 240 I reckon too.

The petrol is $25k more than the D200. That’s a year travelling this great country! Or a LOT of gear and fuel.

But I’m waiting for the proper hybrid or EV.

[101RRS]

The petrol is $25k more than the D200.

And the petrol will have twice the rate of depreciation in Australia.

[blackrangie]

And the petrol will have twice the rate of depreciation in Australia.Not at the rate most deisels are going out of favour in oz at present. [emoji6]

[blackrangie]

Went and test drove a Discovery 5 today with the D 240 engine.

Definitely sufficient power but not an exciting drive by any means. Very well suited to the car, tiny little bit of delay when you punch it but you get used to that very quickly, not an issue.

The Discovery weighs 2184 kg

The new defender weighs 2323 kg

For anyone considering the D240 defender, for sure take a test drive in a D240 Discovery.

Coming from an LS RRC im still leaning towards the MHEV i6, the only thing that is holding me back is the bigger brakes, but as has been mentioned lucky 8 are pretty confident they will be able to get 18s to fit.

If for whatever reason 18 inch wheels do not fit, I would be leaning towards fitting 34s on the factory 20 inch wheels, giving a side profile as follows.


255/60/20 (32s) stock 6inch sidewall

295/60/20 (33.9x11.6) 2inch taller 7 inch sidewall. (Which gives you the same sidewall as 32s on 18s but with more contact patch.
Ridge grapler at, bfg km3 mt, trail grapler mt, terra grapler, baja mtz p3 mt

Or 275/65/20 (34.1x10.8) 2.1 inches taller 7 inch sidewall in pretty much all of the above tyres plus wrangler duratrac and wrangler mtr (with kevlar)

Now considering the engineer's have said 35 will fit with a 1 inch lift, 34s will fit with a 0.5 inch lift.

Meaning 33s will fit with no lift.

This option allows you to run 275/60/20 with no lift giving a sidewall of 6.5 in. ( which is only 0.5 of an inch left side well then the standard tyres on 18 inch rims.)
Duratracs, bfg all terrains, ridge graplers

So 33s no lift
34s 0.5inch lift ( legal tyre limit before Engineering in most States of Australia)
35s 1 inch lift. (Engineering needed for tyres all states)

So no matter whether you choose the 18 inch wheels or the 20s, you will be fine.

Just don't choose 19s [emoji1787]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191018/2cd560c15baf3063553d292f0fa36ae3.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191018/bb36818d60f81cedf0d19f92e1a2607d.jpg

[101RRS]

Not at the rate most deisels are going out of favour in oz at present. [emoji6]

Europe yes - not Australia.

[scarry]

Europe yes - not Australia.

Some manufactures have recently dropped the petrol models in their line up,for the Aus market.

Its interesting that with modern LR's,petrols are way more expensive than diesels,but with some other manufacturers,the $ difference has always been the other way around.

[1nando]

Some manufactures have recently dropped the petrol models in their line up,for the Aus market.

Its interesting that with modern LR's,petrols are way more expensive than diesels,but with some other manufacturers,the $ difference has always been the other way around.Wrong most manufactures are dropping diesels.

Most European manufacturers are going away from diesel and most won't have a diesel option by 2030 as most major European country's are banning them. Pertol hybrid and ev will be all that is offered.

New euro emissions legislation will kill diesel in the medium term
Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-26/a-dead-end-for-fossil-fuel-in-europe-s-city-centers)

[scarry]

Wrong most manufactures are dropping diesels.

Most European manufacturers are going away from diesel and most won't have a diesel option by 2030 as most major European country's are banning them. Pertol hybrid and ev will be all that is offered.

New euro emissions legislation will kill diesel in the medium term
Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-26/a-dead-end-for-fossil-fuel-in-europe-s-city-centers)

What i meant was commercials and 4x4's.Didnt explain myself properly[bighmmm]

In Aus,as i said.

Have a look at the Ranger,BT50,Hilux,Prado,LC,Colorado range,to name a few.Some of those model runs have recently dropped the petrols in their range completely.Others have very few petrol models availably,probably as they simply don't sell well.

Patrol is the exception.

What they do in Europe is for a totally different market to us,and so is the car market compared to commercials and 4X4's.But it will eventually probably filter down here.

Why anyone would buy a small car in a diesel is beyond me,even a few yrs ago before all the diesel issues appeared.

[1nando]

What i meant was commercials and 4x4's.Didnt explain myself properly[bighmmm]

In Aus,as i said.

Have a look at the Ranger,BT50,Hilux,Prado,LC,Colorado range,to name a few.Some of those model runs have recently dropped the petrols in their range completely.Others have very few petrol models availably,probably as they simply don't sell well.

Patrol is the exception.

What they do in Europe is for a totally different market to us,and so is the car market compared to commercials and 4X4's.But it will eventually probably filter down here.

Why anyone would buy a small car in a diesel is beyond me,even a few yrs ago before all the diesel issues appeared.The euro emissions regulations are what the manufacturers build too. They will affect us here like they always have in the past.

[blackrangie]

Europe yes - not Australia.Was referring to the widespread and well publicized issues with diesels in oz across multiple manufacturers

[101RRS]

While European based diesels might start to dry up because of the the EU rules, Asian based diesels will continue to reign supreme in both heavy haulage and 4wds in Aust and most other non European countries and has been discussed a bit lately, while we love our LR product, Asian 4wds reign supreme here and of course Toyota are revising (reducing) their petrol line ups and not the other way.

[SpudHeadTed]

They’ll all be making way for 100% hybrids and EV’s by 2030.

Both straight diesel and petrol private vehicles will then be obsolete.

I would’t buy a new vehicle now unless it was a hybrid.

[1nando]

While European based diesels might start to dry up because of the the EU rules, Asian based diesels will continue to reign supreme in both heavy haulage and 4wds in Aust and most other non European countries and has been discussed a bit lately, while we love our LR product, Asian 4wds reign supreme here and of course Toyota are revising (reducing) their petrol line ups and not the other way.The Toyota dropped the 4.7 petrol v8 in cruiser cause no one buys it. They should have the 5.7 v8 out of the lexus 570 and tundra in there instead, that makes much more power but they're tight ar$es who don't like offering much in the way of value. What's even funnier is that it was the most reliable LC in the lineup, fact.


Yes in Australia they have been reducing some of the petrol options because people have this love affair with diesel here however in time you'll see petrol become the mainstream fuel as manufacturers like Mazda, nissan, Toyota are all designing and testing new petrol engines capable of competing with diesel on economy. If you go on YouTube watch "engineering explained", has some great videos.

[blackrangie]

While European based diesels might start to dry up because of the the EU rules, Asian based diesels will continue to reign supreme in both heavy haulage and 4wds in Aust and most other non European countries and has been discussed a bit lately, while we love our LR product, Asian 4wds reign supreme here and of course Toyota are revising (reducing) their petrol line ups and not the other way.Correct and even yota looks to be heading away from big diesels and 300 series looks to be not V8 at all. Pat Callinan's 4X4 Adventures (https://mr4x4.com.au/new-toyota-landcruiser-300-series-engine-revealed/)

Looks like the will match what LandRover are doing with the petrol Straight 6 2020 and diesel straight 6 in 2021, however for Yota it looks like V6 engines and 300 maybe 2 years off and will they be electrified? From memory it was 2025 they were aiming for.

Times are changing, going to be an interesting couple of years.

[scarry]

Correct and even yota looks to be heading away from big diesels and 300 series looks to be not V8 at all. Pat Callinan's 4X4 Adventures (https://mr4x4.com.au/new-toyota-landcruiser-300-series-engine-revealed/)

Looks like the will match what LandRover are doing with the petrol Straight 6 2020 and diesel straight 6 in 2021, however for Yota it looks like V6 engines and 300 maybe 2 years off and will they be electrified? From memory it was 2025 they were aiming for.

Times are changing, going to be an interesting couple of years.

Thats why its a real difficult decision to buy a vehicle today or in the next couple of years.

Petrol,diesel,or wait for plug in hybrid?

Or keep what you have and see what happens?

Could make a huge difference to resale say in 5 to 10 yrs.

[Rob66]

EU standards/requirements find their way here too.

Take a look at the Disco .. the D240 engine recently (circa 2018 model) had a drop in torque from 500 to 430, which also applies to any new ones sold from that point onward .. When challenging the dealer as to why the drop .. "emission laws" was the reply.
I nearly got one last year, now I'm in line for a L663.


We (ozzies), still buy diesels but we will always feel the effect of Euro standards.

[blackrangie]

Thats why its a real difficult decision to buy a vehicle today or in the next couple of years.

Petrol,diesel,or wait for plug in hybrid?

Or keep what you have and see what happens?

Could make a huge difference to resale say in 5 to 10 yrs.Im also torn about this, i think people will be trading in every 2-3 years until things settle down.
Imo a good 6 petrol or diesel hybrid is the go long term until a hydrogen v8 becomes avail [emoji41].

BMW Hydrogen 7 - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_Hydrogen_7)

Do we know what engines LR are using with for thier plug in hybrids bring released next year?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191020/c133bf9314027963c8623fdd6bb1b5ed.jpg

[blackrangie]

EU standards/requirements find their way here too.

Take a look at the Disco .. the D240 engine recently (circa 2018 model) had a drop in torque from 500 to 430, which also applies to any new ones sold from that point onward .. When challenging the dealer as to why the drop .. "emission laws" was the reply.
I nearly got one last year, now I'm in line for a L663.


We (ozzies), still buy diesels but we will always feel the effect of Euro standards.What engine are you going for, for me the d240 in the D5 didn't excite me enough, but was for sure sufficent power.

[scarry]

EU standards/requirements find their way here too.

Take a look at the Disco .. the D240 engine recently (circa 2018 model) had a drop in torque from 500 to 430, which also applies to any new ones sold from that point onward .. When challenging the dealer as to why the drop .. "emission laws" was the reply.
I nearly got one last year, now I'm in line for a L663.


We (ozzies), still buy diesels but we will always feel the effect of Euro standards.

I wonder if thats actually the truth?
Maybe there were reliability concerns,Euro 6 hasn't yet changed,has it,for Europe?

I also can't find many that 'tune',the D240,the ones that do only get a small increase in figures.Maybe it is highly 'tuned' in stock form.
But the velar models did get around 500nm out of it stock.

I feel your pain,Blackie,engine choice is very difficult decision,the diesel ATM,is a let down,particularly if towing or people are used to the current TDV6.
My D4 is tuned,and even an extra 60nm or so can certainly be noticed.Huge difference from stock,and very little lag.
But if a larger diesel does arrive,i bet there is a huge premium to pay over the D240.

Engine choice has actually put me off the vehicle ATM,we are in no rush ,so can wait.Need to look at it as well,before purchase.

And as many will say,Diesel is going,but is it in AUS?

In 10 yrs time,when they will supposedly be difficult to buy,a good second hand one could be worth a bit of coin,particularly to people that tow huge loads,and a petrol or Hybrid,or EV doesn't suit them for whatever reason.
Diesel fuel will definitely be around for a very long time.

[cripesamighty]

I don’t mind the idea of Hydrogen as a fuel for vehicles. What I do mind is that nearly all of the hydrogen produced for industry and motor vehicles currently comes from the gasification of coal so is NOT a clean fuel as yet. We will just have to wait and see.

[blackrangie]

I wonder if thats actually the truth?
Maybe there were reliability concerns,Euro 6 hasn't yet changed,has it,for Europe?

I also can't find many that 'tune',the D240,the ones that do only get a small increase in figures.Maybe it is highly 'tuned' in stock form.
But the velar models did get around 500nm out of it stock.

I feel your pain,Blackie,engine choice is very difficult decision,the diesel ATM,is a let down,particularly if towing or people are used to the current TDV6.
My D4 is tuned,and even an extra 60nm or so can certainly be noticed.Huge difference from stock,and very little lag.
But if a larger diesel does arrive,i bet there is a huge premium to pay over the D240.

Engine choice has actually put me off the vehicle ATM,we are in no rush ,so can wait.Need to look at it as well,before purchase.

And as many will say,Diesel is going,but is it in AUS?

In 10 yrs time,when they will supposedly be difficult to buy,a good second hand one could be worth a bit of coin,particularly to people that tow huge loads,and a petrol or Hybrid,or EV doesn't suit them for whatever reason.
Diesel fuel will definitely be around for a very long time.I don't think the straight 6 diesel will be a huge Premium, unless it's running all the mild-hybrid gear like the straight 6 petrol, which if it is will be fair enough imo.

[blackrangie]

I don’t mind the idea of Hydrogen as a fuel for vehicles. What I do mind is that nearly all of the hydrogen produced for industry and motor vehicles currently comes from the gasification of coal so is NOT a clean fuel as yet. We will just have to wait and see.There are clean ways to produce it but it's more expensive, also the emissions of just water out of the pipe are a huge positive.

[cripesamighty]

Unfortunately at the moment, a LOT more expensive. You also have to put more energy in than you get out as well with current techniques. A bit more work needs to be done for it to be commercially viable for the long term. I’m hoping they get their act together sooner rather than later. We need more clean energy alternatives.

[scarry]

I don't think the straight 6 diesel will be a huge Premium, unless it's running all the mild-hybrid gear like the straight 6 petrol, which if it is will be fair enough imo.

Around $9K difference,D5,between D240 and Ingenium 6.

D4 3.0L compared with same spec 2.7 was around $11 to $12K from memory,in 2012.

So definitely up there.

Pushes a 110 SE up to around $100 with no boxes ticked.

[SBD4]

.....Engine choice has actually put me off the vehicle ATM,we are in no rush ,so can wait.Need to look at it as well,before purchase....


I totally agree, I think the engine line up is poor. They give you small diesels or the big daddy petrol to choose from.

If I were asked to decide on the engine line up, for the diesel choice I would get rid of the D200 altogether and start with the D240 which should have at least 450Nm, next the D300(IL6) with at least 650Nm. For the Petrol the P300 (4cyl) 450Nm and then the P400 (IL6) 550Nm.

As far as hybrid goes mix and match power/torque/fuel/range specs as required to achieve the desired results ...I don't know enough about it.

In terms of pricing it go D240 ==> P300 ==> D300 ==> P400 with no more than 5K AUD between each jump.

All engines would be available in the base model up to SE with the top models perhaps only offering the D300 or the P400.

The options are another story. The way it is currently, it's like going to a restaurant that has lots of food you like but none of it exists in a single dish so you have order all the dishes to get the bits you want.

EDIT: I know that the D300 does not exist today but the SD6 does. It makes sense that LR are not going to engineer the car to accommodate the outgoing TD6/SD6 engines but they really should have pulled out all stops to get the IL6 diesel done in time for the Defender release.

[rar110]

It’s reasonable to assume JLR will fit the new Defender with the 2.0 PHEV motor currently used in the L405 & L494.

[SBD4]

It’s reasonable to assume JLR will fit the new Defender with the 2.0 PHEV motor currently used in the L405 & L494.
Agreed but, I think that is oriented towards the people who want to go fast with a clear conscience[wink11]. It doesn't really address the towing need with a 2500Kg limit.

[Tins]

Imo they will do an svx version with bmw v8, if and when they do, ill sell and buy if fuel economy is reasonable.

Having said that the straight 6 is almost up there in v8 land, im sure it will be reasonably reliable considering their testing, if not we have warranty and au consumer guarantee.

If they do it's far more likely they'll use a Jag V8. They aren't affiliated with BMW anymore, and Jaguar have some fine 8s.

[Rob66]

What engine are you going for, for me the d240 in the D5 didn't excite me enough, but was for sure sufficent power.

I'm looking at the D240 .. can't justify/afford the additional $12k-ish for the P400 MHEV. There is always the option of tunes, plug-ins or a pedal box to get a bit of extra up n go.

[blackrangie]

If they do it's far more likely they'll use a Jag V8. They aren't affiliated with BMW anymore, and Jaguar have some fine 8s.Actually they are now partnered with BMW

Jaguar Land Rover and BMW join forces on electric cars - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-48525840)
New 2021 Range Rover spotted with BMW V8 engine | Autocar (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/new-range-rover-2021)

Project Rockstar -- The Future BMW X8 M brings Hybrid V8 Power (https://www.bmwblog.com/2019/08/07/project-rockstar-the-future-bmw-x8-m-brings-hybrid-v8-power/)

[blackrangie]

I'm looking at the D240 .. can't justify/afford the additional $12k-ish for the P400 MHEV. There is always the option of tunes, plug-ins or a pedal box to get a bit of extra up n go.Test drove it the other day in a D5, very nice engine, well suited, floored it up a big steep hill from standstill accelerated nicely

[1nando]

Opinion: Petrol engines likely to make imminent return to the 4x4 world (https://www.whichcar.com.au/opinion/petrol-engines-return?fbclid=IwAR1pf5ccfzGikQNhf7l_NoQy2y0Z527__b Gv-6Z1OIXMf7k8D0uVHzSon70)

[scarry]

Opinion: Petrol engines likely to make imminent return to the 4x4 world (https://www.whichcar.com.au/opinion/petrol-engines-return?fbclid=IwAR1pf5ccfzGikQNhf7l_NoQy2y0Z527__b Gv-6Z1OIXMf7k8D0uVHzSon70)

They ramble on about the Tojo engines being dropped because of sales,but the truth is also both engines were old tech,and way behind,as an example the engine in the Y62,and the latest European petrols.Even the 5.7 Lexus petrol is old tech.

The Japanese have always made great petrol engines,so I am sure they will be back with something modern in the new models.

As we know Toyota don’t anything here until they have to,even if they have the technology in other markets.

Plug in hybrids are a very good example of this.

[trout1105]

They ramble on about the Tojo engines being dropped because of sales,but the truth is also both engines were old tech,and way behind,as an example the engine in the Y62,and the latest European petrols.Even the 5.7 Lexus petrol is old tech.

The Japanese have always made great petrol engines,so I am sure they will be back with something modern in the new models.

As we know Toyota don’t anything here until they have to,even if they have the technology in other markets.

Plug in hybrids are a very good example of this.

I think that Toyota work on the premise of "If it aint broke then why fix it?"

[blackrangie]

Opinion: Petrol engines likely to make imminent return to the 4x4 world (https://www.whichcar.com.au/opinion/petrol-engines-return?fbclid=IwAR1pf5ccfzGikQNhf7l_NoQy2y0Z527__b Gv-6Z1OIXMf7k8D0uVHzSon70)Without mentioning it, they are pretty much describing what is available in the new defender and what will be available.

Hybrid matches

Even the 4l V8 matches up with the BMW V8, that is rumoured to be going in the SVX Defender.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191024/a690696ed3d2d5ee495678ca553a86e2.jpg

[blackrangie]

I think that Toyota work on the premise of "If it aint broke then why fix it?"They also work on the premise of if it is broke in AU, unless they have to as Scary alluded to, they won't fix it. The Yota diesels don't have a good rep in AU from my understanding,dusting past the air filter(limp mode in outback anyone), dpf and the "fix" is apparently one of the worst according to autoexpert tv and berrima diesel(who Toyota tried to sue) and worst environmental offenders in AU according to ABC.

So it is really quite interesting they are dropping the petrols. Right now they need them.

Hilux is now outsold by Ranger and Triton in the 4x4 seg.

Not having a go, just stating relevant facts.

So if it aint broke dont fix it, doesnt really apply to toyota, its more, its broke and not fixed, annoying and our customers can put up with it.

[1nando]

They also work on the premise of if it is broke in AU, unless they have to as Scary alluded to, they won't fix it. The Yota diesels don't have a good rep in AU from my understanding,dusting past the air filter(limp mode in outback anyone), dpf and the "fix" is apparently one of the worst according to autoexpert tv and berrima diesel(who Toyota tried to sue) and worst environmental offenders in AU according to ABC.

So it is really quite interesting they are dropping the petrols. Right now they need them.

Hilux is now outsold by Ranger and Triton in the 4x4 seg.

Not having a go, just stating relevant facts.

So if it aint broke dont fix it, doesnt really apply to toyota, its more, its broke and not fixed, annoying and our customers can put up with it.That's the point I was making in the new defender thread. Toyota is actually not that reliable but peoples perception deem them to be and they keep buying them[emoji207][emoji2369]

The v8 and v6 Toyota engines were arguably more reliable then any of their current diesel options yet people flock to the diesel, only in Australia do we have such a love affair with diesel.

[AK83]

.... only in Australia do we have such a love affair with diesel.

Don't forget most of Europe too tho!.
UK have their love of diesels .. all about the economy(price) factor.

In Aus, it's more about the economy more than anything else.
Added to that the current preference for more and more top the power of more( .... to infinity) power, yet the local market wants all this power AND some economy too.
The Yanks seem to care zero about the notion of economy or fuel consumption .. just chuck in a larger V8 ... don't mind that it does 8MPG(in US terms)( .. more like 6MPG)

Not many other countries like here (maybe Africa) where you may need to drive 800 or more klms before the next fill up.
Carrying more fuel can be an option, so of course we have a very active aftermarket fuel tank accessorising sector, but carrying more fuel may not always be the best option too.

[1nando]

Don't forget most of Europe too tho!.
UK have their love of diesels .. all about the economy(price) factor.

In Aus, it's more about the economy more than anything else.
Added to that the current preference for more and more top the power of more( .... to infinity) power, yet the local market wants all this power AND some economy too.
The Yanks seem to care zero about the notion of economy or fuel consumption .. just chuck in a larger V8 ... don't mind that it does 8MPG(in US terms)( .. more like 6MPG)

Not many other countries like here (maybe Africa) where you may need to drive 800 or more klms before the next fill up.
Carrying more fuel can be an option, so of course we have a very active aftermarket fuel tank accessorising sector, but carrying more fuel may not always be the best option too.Europe is moving to petrol and evs. As for economy it's simple maths that people often overlook, upfront cost relative to required kilometers that need to be done to justify the diesel surcharge.

Believe it or not the yanks are actually pretty smart on this topic unlike us in Australia. TFL truck is a great YouTube channel and they have many great videos explaining the pros and cons of gas v diesel and as an average 150,000kms is about the break even point.
Now if your like me and upgrade your car every 5 years then it's a simple option to buy petrol. As an example I'd have to do 500,000kms in my patrol for a vx 200 that costs $20k more to be a "economically wise decision", yet the 200 outsells the patrol 10-1. Australia loves diesel, as for this no petrol in the outback crap it's a load of BS!

A crappy little petrol patrol was the first to do the simo, petrol series vehicles the first to open up much of Australia.... yet a 4wd in Australia needs to be diesel..[emoji207][emoji85]

[AK83]

Have seen a couple of TFLs vids .. more so the OffRoad where they did a series on a D2)


Europe is moving to petrol and evs. As for economy it's simple maths that people often overlook, upfront cost relative to required kilometers that need to be done to justify the diesel surcharge.

...

A crappy little petrol patrol was the first to do the simo, petrol series vehicles the first to open up much of Australia.... yet a 4wd in Australia needs to be diesel..[emoji207][emoji85]

In terms of ICE types in Europe, you claim the math is simple, yet it isn't like here in Aus.
Historically D fuel has always been cheaper in Europe than P.
About 10 years or so back, bro took family on European holiday(BMW3 + caravan) bought in UK(LHD) and off to the continent.

So(from a historical perspective) diesels have always been better value for money over there, irrespective of lifetime of ownership(ie. cost of servicing).
So, the D ICE is more economical, D fuel is cheaper, yet lifetime servicing cost a bit more. People can look for short term servicing discounts to offset the price difference .. but the every day cost was alsways lower for the D powered vehicle.
How this then translates is that on the secondhand market, the premium of the initial D fuelled vehicle comes back 10 fold to the owner in terms of retained value.
Petrol powered vehicles over in Europe are for lack of a better term .. worthless! They depreciate so badly,(simply because in the S/H market folks want even cheaper every day running costs).

Only reason I remember all this coz it took me and bro about 6 or more months perusing UK car ads to find a diesel powered car that wouldn't cost him arms and legs .. of all his family! :D

D1's V8s would sell for 100 UK pounds!(with MOT), cheapest D1 was 200tdis .. roughly in the $3000 pound range(and up!) .. why? who wants a guzzler.

10 years ago, there were no direct fuel injected petrol ICEs .. they were a min 20% less efficient(per litre) many 50% less efficient.
Now the gap has closed, mainly due to the heavier handed regs on D fuelled vehicles, and I dare say the VW debacle also has lots to do with how D fuelled cars sales are panning out.

So, the turning tide is primarily an 'enforced' one manufactured by Euro governments .. not a natural evolution of one.

For mine: I reckon a diesel hybrid would have to make the most sense as a daily drive vehicle. Shouldn't be hard to do properly .. still retain the ability to tow if those that need it want it(I don't).

ps. I've never been the type to sell cars in such short timeframes .. so my persepctive is always completely different.
My outlook on vehicle ownership has always been not just long term time frames .. but very very long distance travelled terms.

[SpudHeadTed]

I’m in Europe now. Diesel is still cheaper in EU by at least 10 euro cents / litre.

Lots of Defenders on the road. No Landcruisers. Virtually no Toyota’s at all actually.
Plenty of VW and many other diesels.

[AK83]

Note to self: must clean out your very old unused, not needed bookmarks! :D

Just found the old bookmark that shows average Euro prices of fuels types.

On the whole cheaper as SpudHead said, but I noticed in the UK Diesel is more by a Euro cent or two.
They have something called B7(diesel fuel) .. may it's a premium ultra super soapy additive type like we have at some servos here.

Converted to our money .. at an average of Eur 1.50(ish) .. that's about Au 2.40/lt

if you were to drive holiday in Europe in a petrol powered vehicle(eg. a new model Patrol!) .. :eek2: .. your Au dollar aint getting you very far.

Looking at the figures for Europe again in terms of percentage of diesel powered passenger cars(no breakdowns of SUV or hatch and stuff, just passenger cars) .. Note that commercial sales are 90+ % diesels, and in some countries 100%.
Passenger cars are interesting tho. Figures go from 2001 to 2017(that I can see now).
Diesels were fewer in percent terms in 2001 than 2017.
Averages are in the 30-40% diesels, some countries, France and lack locked Luxembourg are more 60-ish steady.
Over the time between 2001 and 2017, Diesels have gradually increased to roughly 60% across the board. Greece is weird .. apparently 1% .. but I reckon something wrong there, I don't have any family that don't run a diesel other than their scooters.

So diesel new cars dominate over petrol.

Other interesting numbers: Toyota, early 2000's hardly any diesels. 16%. Slowly picked up and peaked at about 40%(42 I think??)
Then it changed again with their hybrids dropping diesels numbers, and growing their electrified cars(I'm assuming Lexus also count as Toyota) Toyota is not large in Europe like here. between 10th and 7th less than a million units, usually less than half the regular Euro makers in numbers.
About 2005, they slowly increased both hybrids and diesels by percentage terms. People slowly got used too and accepted their hybrids and electrics and diesels.
By 2015 half their car sales were not pure petrol powered, and electrified still booming. 2017 8% diesel, 49% hybrid, a small percentage fuel cell straight electric types.

Volvo is interesting .. consistently 80% diesels .. I used to think Peugeot and VW/Audi were more diesel oriented makers .. but Volvo is .. same with Merc(60-ish%) and around about the 2010 mark BMW too(60% +)

Norway is also interesting as a country. Their figures only start in 2013, but consistently much higher average price for cars(incl taxes) .. in some instances $15-20K Euro average price above the norms for most of Europe. Switzerland, you'd expect higher average prices due to their average income per capita .. still .. Norway still Euro10-15K higher than Swiss!
The car power breakdown for Norway is 23% diesel 12.7% hybrid(except plug in) 19.7% plug in, 18.9% battery electric/fuel, so those figures assume 16% petrol(only) powered cars. Interesting considering Norway makes a pretty penny or billion out of oil production too!
Norway subsidises non ICE cars very heavily(near on 20K Euro per vehicle .. but then again they can afford it. I'm sure I saw Dave at EEVBlog discuss this.
No other country comes near them for 'greenified' passenger vehicle sales.

I think the dieselgate issue must have hit the Germans quite hard too. Consistently 47-49% range of cars sold were diesel, maybe a percent or two electric of some type. But since about 2014 diesels have declined(~ 39%), but alternative haven't increased by the same amount.
Thee are no petrol powered figures(that I can locate), so the assumption is if not diesel, nor alternative, then the loss of diesels percentage must translate to petrol ICE sales, only country in the figures to be doing so, against all the Euro trend.
Realistically too you'd expect Germany to have higher petrol car sales too .. autobahns must seem a lot nicer at 200+ k/h than at 180k/h in s noisy D motor! [biggrin]

One last anomaly about the figures. In the last 10 years Germans have bought 35 million new vehicles(roughly 3 million/year) .. ~ 1million more than the nearest next country.
What on earth do they do with that many vehicles every 10 years? Must export second hand cars to other places(say old eastern blocks places cheaply). 88million people buying 35million cars / 10 year period.

I think our car industry is 1 million /year. Actually doing the sums .... our appetite for new cars puts the Germans to shame.

[scarry]

Europe is moving to petrol and evs. As for economy it's simple maths that people often overlook, upfront cost relative to required kilometers that need to be done to justify the diesel surcharge.

Believe it or not the yanks are actually pretty smart on this topic unlike us in Australia. TFL truck is a great YouTube channel and they have many great videos explaining the pros and cons of gas v diesel and as an average 150,000kms is about the break even point.
Now if your like me and upgrade your car every 5 years then it's a simple option to buy petrol. As an example I'd have to do 500,000kms in my patrol for a vx 200 that costs $20k more to be a "economically wise decision", yet the 200 outsells the patrol 10-1. Australia loves diesel, as for this no petrol in the outback crap it's a load of BS!

A crappy little petrol patrol was the first to do the simo, petrol series vehicles the first to open up much of Australia.... yet a 4wd in Australia needs to be diesel..[emoji207][emoji85]

But the owner that has paid the $20K more for the VX,will get a fair chunk of that back at resale,after 5 yrs,obviously depending on condition of vehicle,K's,etc.

Just saying,its not all money down the drain,and the vehicle has a 5 yr unlimited KM warranty,so if left stock,more than likely,no costs for repairs.

Back on topic,is it worth paying $12K extra for a petrol in the 2020 Deeefer?
Sure its nice to have a bit more power,torque,but is it an 'economically wise decision'?

Maybe not,how will resale go in 5 yrs,petrol verses diesel,who knows,we can only guess.
The petrol costs more,so the owner has more to lose,and LR's generally don't have good resale anyway.
A 5 yr warranty?Doesn't look like it,so maybe some repair costs for the vehicle owner.

There is certainly no trend in Aus of sales of petrol 4x4,and utes, increasing,at the moment,anyway.

Sure many are saying its going to happen,but they also say the place is soon going to be full of Ev's.
The sales of EV's in Aus haven't increased at all,and have actually dropped in many other countries.

Times are changing,its a lot of crystal ball stuff.

And everything we do doesn't have to be an economically wise decision,or life would be boring.[biggrin]

[1nando]

But the owner that has paid the $20K more for the VX,will get a fair chunk of that back at resale,after 5 yrs,obviously depending on condition of vehicle,K's,etc.

Just saying,its not all money down the drain,and the vehicle has a 5 yr unlimited KM warranty,so if left stock,more than likely,no costs for repairs.

Back on topic,is it worth paying $12K extra for a petrol in the 2020 Deeefer?
Sure its nice to have a bit more power,torque,but is it an 'economically wise decision'?

Maybe not,how will resale go in 5 yrs,petrol verses diesel,who knows,we can only guess.
The petrol costs more,so the owner has more to lose,and LR's generally don't have good resale anyway.
A 5 yr warranty?Doesn't look like it,so maybe some repair costs for the vehicle owner.

There is certainly no trend in Aus of sales of petrol 4x4,and utes, increasing,at the moment,anyway.

Sure many are saying its going to happen,but they also say the place is soon going to be full of Ev's.
The sales of EV's in Aus haven't increased at all,and have actually dropped in many other countries.

Times are changing,its a lot of crystal ball stuff.People always mention resale of a diesel purchase as part of the equation but it isn't that simple. Most people lease new cars these days, I don't know anyone who's actually gone to a dealership and paid outright for a vehcile in the last few years. An extra $20K upfront also means a considerable amount more paid in interest over the life of the loan. When you actually calculate the extra paid over the life of the loan relative to the resale it isn't the gap most claim it to be.

As an example any y62 bought post 2016 holds its value on par with the 200, just have a troll through car sales. I paid $77k drive away in November 2017 including genuine nissan 5 year warranty and tow pack for a 2018 Ti, try find one on car sales for less than $65k including on roads(thats the cheapest one on their. Most are high 60s). They hold they're value very well.

Then there's cost of diesel ownership post warranty, when egrs and dpfs die and cost a lot of money to fix, and believe me when I say these will eventually fail.

The problem I see with the new defender is that the diesel options are small and underpowered; ain't converting or convincing many possible buyers. The petrol engine specs look great but it is a complex motor, maybe pushing people away also. Then there's the vehicle pricing which is ridiculous and the gap between petrol and diesel substantial. Is the diesel going to be more reliable than the petrol, I don't know time will tell.

One thing I can guarantee is that 400hp petrol engine in the new defender would definitely be a fun drive.

[scarry]

People always mention resale of a diesel purchase as part of the equation but it isn't that simple. Most people lease new cars these days, I don't know anyone who's actually gone to a dealership and paid outright for a vehcile in the last few years. An extra $20K upfront also means a considerable amount more paid in interest over the life of the loan. When you actually calculate the extra paid over the life of the loan relative to the resale it isn't the gap most claim it to be.

Good point.

So i am one of the few,i always buy outright.

Company owned,sure some will say lease,borrow,whatever,write it off,you can use the money for other things,salary sacrifice,etc.

I prefer to not have the extra costs,repayments,etc.

Borrowing is expensive.

Many borrow,because they don't have the money,and some are living beyond their means.
i know a few that have borrowed for new vehicles,and the vehicles are now worth way less than what they owe on them.
But thats a topic for another thread.

[blackrangie]

But the owner that has paid the $20K more for the VX,will get a fair chunk of that back at resale,after 5 yrs,obviously depending on condition of vehicle,K's,etc.

Just saying,its not all money down the drain,and the vehicle has a 5 yr unlimited KM warranty,so if left stock,more than likely,no costs for repairs.

Back on topic,is it worth paying $12K extra for a petrol in the 2020 Deeefer?
Sure its nice to have a bit more power,torque,but is it an 'economically wise decision'?

Maybe not,how will resale go in 5 yrs,petrol verses diesel,who knows,we can only guess.
The petrol costs more,so the owner has more to lose,and LR's generally don't have good resale anyway.
A 5 yr warranty?Doesn't look like it,so maybe some repair costs for the vehicle owner.

There is certainly no trend in Aus of sales of petrol 4x4,and utes, increasing,at the moment,anyway.

Sure many are saying its going to happen,but they also say the place is soon going to be full of Ev's.
The sales of EV's in Aus haven't increased at all,and have actually dropped in many other countries.

Times are changing,its a lot of crystal ball stuff.

And everything we do doesn't have to be an economically wise decision,or life would be boring.[biggrin]

I wouldn't be so sure about Toyota resale with DPF and DUSTgate. [emoji51]

Being mild hybrid is a plus for the petrol defender for economy at such a high power level. Hybrid would be better which we will see next year.

Anything with the word hybrid in it will help future resale imo.