Uluru at peace.

[bob10]

The climb finishes today. A simple ceremony Sunday will celebrate the return to the traditional owners.


All evidence of Uluru climb to be removed (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/all-evidence-of-uluru-climb-to-be-removed/ar-AAJj4HT?ocid=spartandhp)

[grey_ghost]

Uluru is at peace? I didn’t know that it was at war?

[Carzee]

No biggie, I haven't been and i won't now. Haven't got time to go all the way out there to a cattleyard for tourists. Too busy - there's only 12 years until extinction.
/sarc

[Tins]

How does preventing people from walking on a rock equate to it being "at peace"? It's a rock. You appear to reside in Brighton, Brisbane. Do you want to see the "traditional owners" given back your particular piece of real estate? Would Brighton be at peace if you were forced out?

This is not personal against you, but this whole thing is utterly ridiculous. What's next? Will we stop people skiing Hotham? Ferries in the Harbour? Let's tear down the Harbour Bridge, and bulldoze the Opera House. I wouldn't mind if they bulldozed Fed Square and Docklands Stadium, but that's just me. But I'm pretty sure someone will make a claim on the MCG, or the Hydro Majestic. Maybe we should all get on wooden ships and go back to where we all came from. The so called "traditional owners" laid no claim to Ayer's Rock for 200 years after Cook got here. The activists that chose to provoke this stupidity have lived in Australia for far less years than I have. I do not acknowledge them, and I never will. I respect the ( trigger warning ) aboriginal people who lived here, but I'm not hearing from them, I'm hearing from a mob looking for a free buck.

There is a monolith in West Australia, twice the size of Ayer's Rock, called Mount Augustus. Is it now at peace as well? Or are we now prevented from enjoying it too. What about the Wolf Creek crater? Does that now belong to John Jarrett. Nobody else seems to have claimed it. Yet.

[Tins]

No biggie, I haven't been and i won't now. Haven't got time to go all the way out there to a cattleyard for tourists. Too busy - there's only 12 years until extinction.
/sarc

Must be getting closer to 11 years now..... Strange how the Maldives stubbornly remain above SL, and yet get richer.

Nobody worries about Fiji though, and they are lower.... Maybe those pesky coral polyps are working harder there, but perishing from the warmth on the GBR?

Logic is a concept that seems to have escaped many. Not you though. Bravo. Good to see another who isn't convinced.

[stealth]

I was there in April and climbed it.
I have no doubt whatsoever that it will be open to climb again in the future. But I’ll bet by then you will not be allowed to climb it for free.
Then again the world ends in less than 12 years so what will it matter.

[bob10]

How does preventing people from walking on a rock equate to it being "at peace"? It's a rock. You appear to reside in Brighton, Brisbane. Do you want to see the "traditional owners" given back your particular piece of real estate? Would Brighton be at peace if you were forced out?

This is not personal against you, but this whole thing is utterly ridiculous. What's next? Will we stop people skiing Hotham? Ferries in the Harbour? Let's tear down the Harbour Bridge, and bulldoze the Opera House. I wouldn't mind if they bulldozed Fed Square and Docklands Stadium, but that's just me. But I'm pretty sure someone will make a claim on the MCG, or the Hydro Majestic. Maybe we should all get on wooden ships and go back to where we all came from. The so called "traditional owners" laid no claim to Ayer's Rock for 200 years after Cook got here. The activists that chose to provoke this stupidity have lived in Australia for far less years than I have. I do not acknowledge them, and I never will. I respect the ( trigger warning ) aboriginal people who lived here, but I'm not hearing from them, I'm hearing from a mob looking for a free buck.

There is a monolith in West Australia, twice the size of Ayer's Rock, called Mount Augustus. Is it now at peace as well?

Your ignorance is only surpassed by your lack of understanding. No offence meant.

[biggin]

I’m sure Johntins understands perfectly.
How can calling someone ignorant not be offensive?

[grey_ghost]

I’ve noticed that if someone has a different opinion to Bob, he tends to look down on them.

We all have different opinions and life would be boring if we all thought the same thing.

Just imagine a world full of white Toyota Corollas!

I myself and more of a live and let live kinda ghost. [emoji6]

[bob10]

I’m sure Johntins understands perfectly.
How can calling someone ignorant not be offensive?


People can live in ignorance through no fault of their own. My post was in no way meant to be offensive. Sorry if it was taken that way. The only evidence I will present is that relating to Land claims. Johntins post ranting to me about land claims on my property were so far off the mark, that it is worth just ignoring. But I wont. I will attempt to educate.

In a nutshell.
What land can be claimed?
Aboriginal people can only claim vacant government-owned land ("Crown land") under the Native Title Act and they must prove a continuous relationship with this land."Freehold title" is land owned by individual owners, companies or local councils. Such lands cannot be claimed.
for a more in depth explanation;





Aboriginal land claims - Creative Spirits (https://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/land/aboriginal-land-claims)

[bob10]

I’ve noticed that if someone has a different opinion to Bob, he tends to look down on them.

We all have different opinions and life would be boring if we all thought the same thing.

Just imagine a world full of white Toyota Corollas!

I myself and more of a live and let live kinda ghost. [emoji6]

It's unfortunate you have that opinion. I look down on no one. But I will argue a point if I know I am right, and have proof to back it up. What annoys me greatly is people on the net who hold an opinion that is total here say, or urban myth, or just say the first thing that comes to mind without much thought, and pass it off as fact, and push that fact in your face in an aggressive manner. That's a dead giveaway they don't really know . I say if you make a point, be prepared to back it up, or better still, research that point to ensure you have the facts. Then we can both talk at the same level. I am more than prepared to back down and acknowledge the fact if proved wrong.

The disappointing thing about my post? I posted in good faith, about something I believe in, and wanted to share what I regard as good news. To get jumped on by members for whatever reason , without taking in to account my beliefs, my feelings? THAT is insulting. At the very least , if you have a problem with my post, you should ask me the reasons I felt the need to post. I'm willing to share without putting people down. That's what adults do. Just saying [wink11]

[Chops]

I was there in April and climbed it.
I have no doubt whatsoever that it will be open to climb again in the future. But I’ll bet by then you will not be allowed to climb it for free.
Then again the world ends in less than 12 years so what will it matter.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head here.
With no climbing, the tourists will slow right down, be it either “length of stay” or “what’s the point, it’s just a rock”. People go there now, or we’re going there to climb it, but quite often on arrival decided it was to hard, so “chose” not to climb. Now that “choice” is gone, there’s a fair chance they’ll opt to just not go.
If the tourist dollars don’t come in, something’s going to give,,,, or someone will give in.

As said previously on here, when we were there about 40 odd years ago,, we were encouraged by the real “on-site traditional owners” to climb and enjoy the view. The only place off limits was the ceremony cave around the side where one of the elders resided. As we went passed though,, he still acknowledged our presence with a wave.

[VladTepes]

There are my facts and there are your facts, Bob. It's just that simple.

Excuse the juxtaposition, but life isn't as black and white as you interpret things.

We all live in the grey.

[bob10]

I think you might have hit the nail on the head here.
With no climbing, the tourists will slow right down, be it either “length of stay” or “what’s the point, it’s just a rock”. People go there now, or we’re going there to climb it, but quite often on arrival decided it was to hard, so “chose” not to climb. Now that “choice” is gone, there’s a fair chance they’ll opt to just not go.
If the tourist dollars don’t come in, something’s going to give,,,, or someone will give in.

As said previously on here, when we were there about 40 odd years ago,, we were encouraged by the real “on-site traditional owners” to climb and enjoy the view. The only place off limits was the ceremony cave around the side where one of the elders resided. As we went passed though,, he still acknowledged our presence with a wave.

Sorry, I have to call you out on that. For a start, the number of tourists climbing had dropped to 16%, which means 84% visited Uluru for a different experience. 40 years ago, the traditional owners were displaced by ' fringe dwellers ' out to make a buck. It wasn't until 1985 that Uluru and Kata Tjuta were returned to the traditional owners. And it was from that point that the Anangu , began asking visitors not to climb the rock. The Board of the Uluru / Kata Tjuta National Park made the decision in 2010 that when the % of visitor numbers climbing the rock dropped to 20%they would stop the climb. 26th October 2019 was chosen as the closure date because it was the 34th anniversary of the return to the traditional owners.

You are so far off the mark about thinking visitors only go there to climb. And don't put money on it coming back, you'll lose. The present board have in place numerous activities for visitors, many for the first time. Overseas visitors still flock to the rock , I'd bet numbers will increase, not fall. Last word from me, the irony, perhaps lost on the climbers, is that the only place for KM's around where it's not possible to really appreciate the majesty and spiritual pull of Uluru, is from on top of it.

[bob10]

There are my facts and there are your facts, Bob. It's just that simple.

Excuse the juxtaposition, but life isn't as black and white as you interpret things.

We all live in the grey.

You'll forgive me if I don't agree with that .

[grey_ghost]

You continually prove my point Bob - if someone has a different view to you, then you are quite disrespectful to them.

You do it time and time again.

Me? I am just lying down for an afternoon nanna nap [emoji6]

[Pickles2]

You continually prove my point Bob - if someone has a different view to you, then you are quite disrespectful to them.

You do it time and time again.

Me? I am just lying down for an afternoon nanna nap [emoji6]
"Sanctimonious" is the word I would use.
We all have our opinions, do I expect everyone to agree with me?!!!.....NO WAY, BUT,....I just love a good discussion.
With respect to this discussion, 72.55% of Aulro forum respondents disagreed with the climbing "decision". Are they right or wrong?..who knows, but for sure we should all be entitled to our opinion without any form of derision.
Pickles.

[grey_ghost]

Hey Pickles,

I forgot that the supercars at the Gold Coast is on! [emoji1303]

[Eevo]

You continually prove my point Bob - if someone has a different view to you, then you are quite disrespectful to them.

You do it time and time again.


from what ive seen, anyone with a different opinion to bob, he'll call ignorant.

[Eevo]

72.55% of Aulro forum respondents disagreed with the climbing "decision".
ah, so we now have a statistic about how ignorant aulro is [bigwhistle]

[Arapiles]

ah, so we now have a statistic about how ignorant aulro is [bigwhistle]

I didn't vote, so you can take a percentage or two off that.

Went to Uluru in the 90s, learnt why the traditional owners requested people to not climb and chose to respect their wishes. Same way, when I was in Japan, I didn't **** on Torii or sacred trees, or when I was in Paris I took off my hat in Sacre Coeur and kept my voice down or when I was in NYC I didn't stomp around on the altar of St Patricks or go into the blocked off areas .... I can go on, but have I made my point? Why is respect for others and their beliefs so hard for some people?

[Pickles2]

Hey Pickles,

I forgot that the supercars at the Gold Coast is on! [emoji1303]
I'm watching on Foxtel, Chaz has just written off his Mustang in T.T. Shootout,...a total loss.
Big race (one of two) starts at 4.00PM!
Pickles.

[Pickles2]

I didn't vote, so you can take a percentage or two off that.

Went to Uluru in the 90s, learnt why the traditional owners requested people to not climb and chose to respect their wishes. Same way, when I was in Japan, I didn't **** on Torii or sacred trees, or when I was in Paris I took off my hat in Sacre Coeur and kept my voice down or when I was in NYC I didn't stomp around on the altar of St Patricks or go into the blocked off areas .... I can go on, but have I made my point? Why is respect for others and their beliefs so hard for some people?
Nope, don't need to take any points off, the % is only of the actual members who voted.
The issue has been done to death, I'm just clearing up (clarifying is probably a better word!) my comment.
Pickles.

[goingbush]

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/75262271_3194929504065875_6178247138888122368_n.jp g?_nc_cat=1&_nc_eui2=AeFWg896pYpJNa7EgjgQh-o28WfOjYOmY8FKJve8xUl9XEXGcEaPN0m0bT4L0oDNDBqekrEv 4edvG5rSiqq_kEnQErLzGe8uKrdVxeIeqytkCQ&_nc_oc=AQkFGgsOAL3qKpVZEsE4e2S_d8iVN45QxVIqd89x9UZ _bw5BlfZDhYNXYn8z8uo2tp0&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=4ba3c5683e657f47e3c59db32a34930f&oe=5E23EE09

[Eevo]

I didn't vote, so you can take a percentage or two off that.

Went to Uluru in the 90s, learnt why the traditional owners requested people to not climb and chose to respect their wishes. Same way, when I was in Japan, I didn't **** on Torii or sacred trees, or when I was in Paris I took off my hat in Sacre Coeur and kept my voice down or when I was in NYC I didn't stomp around on the altar of St Patricks or go into the blocked off areas .... I can go on, but have I made my point? Why is respect for others and their beliefs so hard for some people?


those things are man made?

is uluru man made?

[V8Ian]

I didn't vote, so you can take a percentage or two off that.

Went to Uluru in the 90s, learnt why the traditional owners requested people to not climb and chose to respect their wishes. Same way, when I was in Japan, I didn't **** on Torii or sacred trees, or when I was in Paris I took off my hat in Sacre Coeur and kept my voice down or when I was in NYC I didn't stomp around on the altar of St Patricks or go into the blocked off areas .... I can go on, but have I made my point? Why is respect for others and their beliefs so hard for some people?


those things are man made?

is uluru man made?
Wow, those Japanese must be pretty smart, making trees!
Then again, eevo's probably just trying to get a rise out of Bob.

[Fatso]

There is always Mount Augustus in WA , a rock twice as big as Uluru , with a climbing trail called Summit Trail for anyone fit enough to do it roughly about 12K return climb . [smilebigeye]

Also known as Burringurrah by the local Wajarri People .

[Eevo]

There is always Mount Augustus in WA , a rock twice as big as Uluru , with a climbing trail called Summit Trail for anyone fit enough to do it roughly about 12K return climb . [smilebigeye]

been there, done that, great climb!

[Eevo]

Wow, those Japanese must be pretty smart, making trees!
Then again, eevo's probably just trying to get a rise out of Bob.

i dont know about their sacred trees. rest are man made.
bob has me blocked, so no chance of that.

[blackrangie]

Sad day for Australians, to restrict access to anything natural is imo wrong if it can be done sustainably, nothing natural is someone's, its ours. Ive never been up there, shame.

[blackrangie]

There is always Mount Augustus in WA , a rock twice as big as Uluru , with a climbing trail called Summit Trail for anyone fit enough to do it roughly about 12K return climb . [smilebigeye]Cheers, on the list

[goingbush]

Don't hear anyone complaining about not being able to climb the Olgas !

[blackrangie]

Don't hear anyone complaining about not being able to climb the Olgas !What's that? Keen to complain if you let me know what it is [emoji6]

[Fatso]

Don't hear anyone complaining about not being able to climb the Olgas !

Didn't know you couldn't . :no2:

[pop058]

I didn't vote, so you can take a percentage or two off that.

Went to Uluru in the 90s, learnt why the traditional owners requested people to not climb and chose to respect their wishes. Same way, when I was in Japan, I didn't **** on Torii or sacred trees, or when I was in Paris I took off my hat in Sacre Coeur and kept my voice down or when I was in NYC I didn't stomp around on the altar of St Patricks or go into the blocked off areas .... I can go on, but have I made my point? Why is respect for others and their beliefs so hard for some people?

Does this belief and respect you speak off also apply to those who believe it is just a rock ????

[Pickles2]

And there is another issue that has been raised, repeatedly, with respect to Churches, wasn't going to raise it, but can't help myself, so I will, and I will be specific, so there can be no doubt.
I am a practicing Anglican, and so that everyone is in no doubt, that does not make me any better, or any worse, than anybody else.
When ANYONE enters an Anglican Church, the whole building is consecrated, holy/sacred ground, whatever you want to call it, no area within the building is any more "sacred" than another. It is all consecrated. And ANYONE is welcome to enter ANY part of the building/consecrated area. There are NO restrictions,.....we welcome anyone,.....whether you "believe" or not.
To be local, so that you can "test" this, & so relate to anyone travelling around country Victoria etc, if you like to enter any Country Anglican Churches as we do, to check ém out!!,... you will find no restrictions,....you can go anywhere, and it is ALL consecrated, or in other's words, Sacred...but you are welcome ANYWHERE in that building.
Now, as far as larger Churches are concerned, say St Paul's Cathedral Melbourne, the whole building is sacred/consecrated, TO US. We understand it may not be "Sacred" to everyone, but nevertheless, we welcome EVERYONE, whether they "believe" or not. Are there "restricted" areas?....Yes, there are, but they are not "restricted" for reasons of belief/sacred, history etc etc,.....they are simply "restricted" because there are valuable items stored in the vicinity, gold, silver, antique items,alcohol, all sorts of stuff.
Nothing to do with anything else, apart from the obvious fact that some items have monetary value, & in line with common sense, whether these items are in a jewelry shop, bank, or whatever, these items have to be protected from "light fingers",....nothing more, nothing less.
Pickles.

[rick130]

And there is another issue that has been raised, repeatedly, with respect to Churches, wasn't going to raise it, but can't help myself, so I will, and I will be specific, so there can be no doubt.
I am a practicing Anglican, and so that everyone is in no doubt, that does not make me any better, or any worse, than anybody else.
When ANYONE enters an Anglican Church, the whole building is consecrated, holy/sacred ground, whatever you want to call it, no area within the building is any more "sacred" than another. It is all consecrated. And ANYONE is welcome to enter ANY part of the building/consecrated area. There are NO restrictions,.....we welcome anyone,.....whether you "believe" or not.
To be local, so that you can "test" this, & so relate to anyone travelling around country Victoria etc, if you like to enter any Country Anglican Churches as we do, to check ém out!!,... you will find no restrictions,....you can go anywhere, and it is ALL consecrated, or in other's words, Sacred...but you are welcome ANYWHERE in that building.
Now, as far as larger Churches are concerned, say St Paul's Cathedral Melbourne, the whole building is sacred/consecrated, TO US. We understand it may not be "Sacred" to everyone, but nevertheless, we welcome EVERYONE, whether they "believe" or not. Are there "restricted" areas?....Yes, there are, but they are not "restricted" for reasons of belief/sacred, history etc etc,.....they are simply "restricted" because there are valuable items stored in the vicinity, gold, silver, antique items,alcohol, all sorts of stuff.
Nothing to do with anything else, apart from the obvious fact that some items have monetary value, & in line with common sense, whether these items are in a jewelry shop, bank, or whatever, these items have to be protected from "light fingers",....nothing more, nothing less.
Pickles.But no one is allowed to climb on the bloody roof!! [emoji6][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[goingbush]

But no one is allowed to climb on the bloody roof!! [emoji6][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

my mate with the Iveco is , [bigwhistle]

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/66774169_1344998575653086_3489182232420024320_o.jp g?_nc_cat=107&_nc_eui2=AeHgcKljcZUABIO9NLWHxi-ZmGF0NNTvQCVG7zgXjrQGMDEmIBdRUSbfbTCw4Fvbo-SrZRz8O2ASVWOyQi9co-4vMzVdGkjubt5iScz83GscPg&_nc_oc=AQmgM7jIjF2QtIbBfcEcJBqGcIsHkx0FntTVD3Y1prg mGjKvD4sm2AgaOOPZxhNsy48&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=8e82acf8e4d63cb93c803893cabf79f9&oe=5E1C61B4

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/69931268_1388341347985475_1295839796966457344_o.jp g?_nc_cat=100&_nc_eui2=AeF46N9yewxFlsggtiV6WHNVqADzd3fkplMOu20hq ffluZN1AeaxwbIN77jzPy2hqrrYefLAg9TbUZnoB1UlMk-DqXeYpB6nzy8yueUJ72G2wA&_nc_oc=AQlP3TSLmeM66evC-zZRy__O9UmDTvvJDhypnm9xC030m2F7IJaG1GHbTgR7HVDrQEs&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=b755f0e7a71b293cb480b8700f2b44e3&oe=5E5AB441

[goingbush]

Didn't know you couldn't . :no2:

if you come across a set of LandCruiser tyre skid marks going up the start of one of the domes, .... 'I know nothing' ( in Sgt Schultz voice)

[4bee]

But no one is allowed to climb on the bloody roof!!



Rick, it would be a bit bloody hard to nick the lead roofing if one didn't.[biggrin] Fairs fair.

[pop058]

But no one is allowed to climb on the bloody roof!! [emoji6][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

I think this comparison is not real accurate. Just because it is high up does not make it a roof. It is still the ground where one normally walks, just closer to the sun. More like climbing up the fronts steps IMHO.

[bob10]

You continually prove my point Bob - if someone has a different view to you, then you are quite disrespectful to them.

You do it time and time again.

Me? I am just lying down for an afternoon nanna nap [emoji6]:Thump:Know what? Think what you like.

[bob10]

Wow, those Japanese must be pretty smart, making trees!
Then again, eevo's probably just trying to get a rise out of Bob.

Good luck with that.[thumbsupbig]

[V8Ian]

Who here would knowingly trample over graves?

[Arapiles]

those things are man made?

is uluru man made?

Mt Kailash is not man-made, the sacred rocks in Japan are not man-made, the sacred trees in Japan are not man-made, Mt Athos is not man-made - a religious site does not have to be constructed to be sacred.

[Arapiles]

Sad day for Australians, to restrict access to anything natural is imo wrong if it can be done sustainably, nothing natural is someone's, its ours. Ive never been up there, shame.

"nothing natural is someone's, its ours" - I think you'll find that that's not how property rights work in Australia. And Uluru is actually owned by the Anangu and leased back to National Parks.

There are some stunning locations in Australia that are on private land - are you seriously suggesting that you have a right to just go on in?

[Arapiles]

Does this belief and respect you speak off also apply to those who believe it is just a rock ????

Is that a religious belief that it's just a rock? Which religion would that be?

[BradC]

Who here would knowingly trample over graves?

How many people are buried under Ayers Rock?

[V8Ian]

How many people are buried under Ayers Rock?
Now you're just being obtuse.

[blackrangie]

"nothing natural is someone's, its ours" - I think you'll find that that's not how property rights work in Australia. And Uluru is actually owned by the Anangu and leased back to National Parks.

There are some stunning locations in Australia that are on private land - are you seriously suggesting that you have a right to just go on in?Uggh

[timax]

those things are man made?

is uluru man made?
There are plenty of natural places around the world where for some cultural reason you cant go.
Mt Machhapuchchhre in Nepal for example would be on most climbers radar being just shy of 7k meters. But its a sacred mountain and has never been climbed.
I dont see Uluru as any different .

[Eevo]

There are plenty of natural places around the world where for some cultural reason you cant go.
Mt Machhapuchchhre in Nepal for example would be on most climbers radar being just shy of 7k meters. But its a sacred mountain and has never been climbed.
I dont see Uluru as any different .


its off limit to climbers to preserve its shape and beauty. nothing about being sacred.

[Eevo]

Mt Kailash is not man-made, the sacred rocks in Japan are not man-made, the sacred trees in Japan are not man-made, Mt Athos is not man-made - a religious site does not have to be constructed to be sacred.

except for mt athos, where there are people living there, none of those sites are religious.
and if your going to go with religion, well my make believe god is more powerful then your make believe god, and he said its ok.

[Eevo]

Uluru has become the first victim of Climb-it Change

[Blknight.aus]

just to weigh in....

Its just a rock.

Its just a rock that has a small section that is a spirtual resting ground

I dont think climbing the rock should be banned.

I do think the area of significance should be cordoned

even if they do ban the climb

I think the access ways should remain to permit easier and safer access for those of the culture for whom that area is of actual significance

While I wouldn't knowingly walk on a grave I'm perfectly happy to walk through and past grave yards and sites., There is a spectacular cemetary near perth that is effectively a park with graves. I've been there a few times just for the views.

And yes, I've climbed it as per in a previous post, with the guidance of an elder...

I get the significance to them....

to me, ITs a rock with a spectacular view that has the equivelent of a shrine on it and this is supposedly a multicultrual country, if its within spec for what is as close as my culture as it gets to permit people to walk and visit in close proximity and those of the culture that wish to blanket ban the rock climb should, of their own volition, follow their own cultural beliefs and guidance when it comes to paying respect to the resting areas and spiritual grounds of other cultures and stay well clear.

Want some examples...

you can get to within about 10m of the tomb of the unkown soldier, you can get to within 10 feet of the memorial flame, you can get right up to and touch almost every anzac memorial....

Yet I dont see those of the culture voluntarily keeping more than 500m between them and those (except maybe the tomb of the unkown soldier because they're on different continents.

[pop058]

Is that a religious belief that it's just a rock? Which religion would that be?

I would not have thought that someone has to be religious to believe in something, but to answer your question, no.

[trout1105]

This Anangu mob can't even keep their own community in good order as it resembles a garbage tip with all the rubbish strewn around amongst the wreaked cars and other junk where they live.
If they don't have any respect for their own homes and where their children play then why all the song and dance about a bloody rock?
I put it to you that this ban on climbing the rock is more to do with politics than it has to do with "culture".

[Arapiles]

its off limit to climbers to preserve its shape and beauty. nothing about being sacred.

I think that you're quoting from the Wikipedia article which subsequently goes on to state:

"Since then, the mountain has been declared sacred, and is now closed to climbers."

And in any case, exactly how would climbers change the shape of a mountain?

Clearer explanation of its sacred status here:

"Rising nearly 7000 metres into the clear blue sky above Nepal’s rugged Annapurna mountain range, Machapuchare is arguably the most untouched place on Earth. Believed to be one of the homes of the Hindu god Shiva, its isolated summit sits alone in the sky – unclimbable and untouched. Officially, Machapuchare has never been summited, making its ethereal heights one of the least-visited places on Earth."

The Untouched Holy Mountain of Nepal | AnOther (https://www.anothermag.com/design-living/8893/the-untouched-holy-mountain-of-nepal)

[Eevo]

I think that you're quoting from the Wikipedia article which subsequently goes on to state:

"Since then, the mountain has been declared sacred, and is now closed to climbers."

And in any case, exactly how would climbers change the shape of a mountain?



yep. its the since then. it wasnt sacred before.

didnt make sense to me either.

[Saitch]

BC predicted similar.
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[Tombie]

What’s done is done. Move on.

[Tins]

I’m sure Johntins understands perfectly.
How can calling someone ignorant not be offensive?

It's fine by me. Offence cannot be given, it can only be taken, and I chose not to. However, It's not me who's ignorant. These so called 'traditional owners" main tradition was not to "own" anything at all. They were stone age nomads for 40,000 years. These days a "flag" is attributed to them, but that "flag" was designed in 1972 by an artist, and his estate still charges for the use of it. The people it is supposed to represent had no idea of "Nation". They were tribal, and often attacked other tribes if they encountered them.

I repeat. I respect them, those real ones( I even hate using the term "them" for other people ). I also respect those that I have encountered in my travels, they seem to me to be people the same as me, with troubles and triumphs. I've never cared about skin colour, and in fact got a tiny bit of fame once for standing up for a black West Indian man that some racist moron bouncers would not let into a crappy Brisbane night club. I made the news.

I don't respect people who trade on a past that likely didn't exist.

[Tins]

Who here would knowingly trample over graves?

Are you saying that massive monolith is a headstone?? Can you point me to any Aboriginal graveyard? Was there a "tradition" of burial amongst the tribes? Graves are a European tradition ( in the context of Australia, I'm aware that other cultures also have this tradition, but the Aborigines did not).

I'm serious. Which tribe is Uluru sacred to? All of them? Most tribes never saw the thing.
Now we're going to change the name of the Yarra, because some modern "traditional owner" says it was called something different 200 years ago. Who told him/her/zie?

[Tins]

I was there in April and climbed it.
I have no doubt whatsoever that it will be open to climb again in the future. But I’ll bet by then you will not be allowed to climb it for free.
Then again the world ends in less than 12 years so what will it matter.

Yep. Like the platform over the Grand Canyon. $$$$$

[Eevo]

i wonder what the chinese will do when they take over?

[Tins]

from what ive seen, anyone with a different opinion to bob, he'll call ignorant.

Funny how one can swing from ignorant to informed, depending on topic.

[Tins]

There is always Mount Augustus in WA , a rock twice as big as Uluru , with a climbing trail called Summit Trail for anyone fit enough to do it roughly about 12K return climb . [smilebigeye]

Also known as Burringurrah by the local Wajarri People .

Think I mentioned Mt Augustus in my original, controversial as usual. post. Seems though that Uluru is a monolith, whereas Mt Augustus in a monocline. I'm not sure of the difference, but maybe the "traditional owners" are.

Do the Wajarri mind if you climb it?

[101RRS]

These so called 'traditional owners" main tradition was not to "own" anything at all.

Not quite true as clans claimed territory as their own and the borders were understood by neighbouring clans - any one caught on neighbouring clans land without an invitation usually got the chop and sometimes eaten.

While different in the way modern peoples do things - similar basic rules still applied.

Garry

[Saitch]

i wonder what the chinese will do when they take over?

Name change...…………."Ururu". Wow, a palindrome!

[Tins]

And there is another issue that has been raised, repeatedly, with respect to Churches, wasn't going to raise it, but can't help myself, so I will, and I will be specific, so there can be no doubt.
I am a practicing Anglican, and so that everyone is in no doubt, that does not make me any better, or any worse, than anybody else.
When ANYONE enters an Anglican Church, the whole building is consecrated, holy/sacred ground, whatever you want to call it, no area within the building is any more "sacred" than another. It is all consecrated. And ANYONE is welcome to enter ANY part of the building/consecrated area. There are NO restrictions,.....we welcome anyone,.....whether you "believe" or not.
To be local, so that you can "test" this, & so relate to anyone travelling around country Victoria etc, if you like to enter any Country Anglican Churches as we do, to check ém out!!,... you will find no restrictions,....you can go anywhere, and it is ALL consecrated, or in other's words, Sacred...but you are welcome ANYWHERE in that building.
Now, as far as larger Churches are concerned, say St Paul's Cathedral Melbourne, the whole building is sacred/consecrated, TO US. We understand it may not be "Sacred" to everyone, but nevertheless, we welcome EVERYONE, whether they "believe" or not. Are there "restricted" areas?....Yes, there are, but they are not "restricted" for reasons of belief/sacred, history etc etc,.....they are simply "restricted" because there are valuable items stored in the vicinity, gold, silver, antique items,alcohol, all sorts of stuff.
Nothing to do with anything else, apart from the obvious fact that some items have monetary value, & in line with common sense, whether these items are in a jewelry shop, bank, or whatever, these items have to be protected from "light fingers",....nothing more, nothing less.
Pickles.

Wonderful. In recent posts we spoke of Nevil Shute books. One that wasn't mentioned was "Round The Bend", which told of an aero engineer who was religious. He wasn't of any particular faith, he was just religious. He would attend any church or temple or shrine that the locals used. All Churches, Mosques, Temples and Shrines welcomed him.

[Tins]

Good luck with that.[thumbsupbig]

I managed it.

[Tins]

Now you're just being obtuse.

In response to a ridiculous question, Ian. Uluru is not a gravesite.

[Tins]

Mt Kailash is not man-made, the sacred rocks in Japan are not man-made, the sacred trees in Japan are not man-made, Mt Athos is not man-made - a religious site does not have to be constructed to be sacred.

Can you reasonably explain why man made sacred sites relate to a big rock in the Northern Territory?

[V8Ian]

These so called 'traditional owners" main tradition was not to "own" anything at all. They were stone age nomads for 40,000 years.
Now it's my turn to allege your ignorance, John. The Indigenous did believe in ownership, however their concept differed from ours in that their community possessed the land, rather than an individual.
May I recommend you read 'Dark Emu", it's available as an electronic download, at a very reasonable price and most enlightening.
Our explorers wrote a very 'convenient' account, either to suit the whitefellas' situation, ignorance or both.

Friday essay: Dark Emu and the blindness of Australian agriculture (https://theconversation.com/friday-essay-dark-emu-and-the-blindness-of-australian-agriculture-97444)

If the podcast is still available, it's well worth listening to, as well.

[Tins]

are you seriously suggesting that you have a right to just go on in?

Why not? Any creek or river allows you to cross private land, as no waterway can be owned by an individual. Did you not know that? What's wrong with applying that logic to natural wonders? Oh, wait, said natural wonders might have some religious significance, right? Like the Yarra River in Melbourne, it seems. We MUST change its name to one somebody made up. I say made up, as there is not one person alive who knows what it used to be. Given there were many tribes who popped in, it may need multiple names. Great. Can I still paddle a canoe in it, or will that offend someone?

[V8Ian]

In response to a ridiculous question, Ian. Uluru is not a gravesite.
Gravesites are not the only sacred places. Sacred is different things to different cultures and individuals.

[Tins]

yep. its the since then. it wasnt sacred before.

didnt make sense to me either.

Since then.... Could not agree more, let's make a buck.

[Tins]

Not quite true as clans claimed territory as their own and the borders were understood by neighbouring clans - any one caught on neighbouring clans land without an invitation usually got the chop and sometimes eaten.

While different in the way modern peoples do things - similar basic rules still applied.

Garry

Selective interpretation, Garry. I even stated "They were tribal, and often attacked other tribes if they encountered them.".

That does not take away the fact that they were tribalistic, stone age nomads with no concept of Nation. I sometimes envy them this. Doesn't mean I have to listen to someone who wants to make a buck out some claim of ownership. I'm happy to share, in fact I'm one of the most egalitarian people you are likely to meet. But I cannot agree to this "it's ours, not yours" mentality that activists are promoting.

40,000 years, allegedly, and nothing, no claim, no flag, no totem. Some cave paintings that none of them understand. Did they even paint them, or were they from before, like the cave paintings in Europe and Asia.

[Tins]

Gravesites are not the only sacred places. Sacred is different things to different cultures and individuals.

All true, and also of no meaning. If we are to acknowledge all sacred sites then best we don't move. You live in Ipswich. Is there a sacred site you aren't aware of near you?? Bob couldn't grasp why I mentioned where he lives as a potential site, but you are maybe smarter than him, or not....
If you listen to the activists, the whole continent is sacred, and Cook and Phillip committed an act of war just arriving here. If you ask me, I'd say they were bloody lucky that it was the Poms who arrived first. If it had been the French or the Dutch there would be no Aborigines left to argue who owned a rock in the middle of the continent.

And then some runt apologised. FOR ME! I wan't here. My Great Great Great Grandfather wasn't here. What a joke.

I refuse to acknowledge some rule that has been installed retrospectively by individuals that have no right or claim. The plight of the students at the middle of the QUT debacle a couple of years back should make you think. The whole thing was a disgusting play on what we are SUPPOSED to think. It failed, thankfully, but it will happen again.

[Eevo]

the moon is personified in many religions. should we not go there?
its a rock too.

[Tins]

the moon is personified in many religions. should we not go there?
its a rock too.

Nah, the Yanks have sorted that out... Well, unless the Sioux or somesuch have first dibs...

Mars is the God of War, the Red Planet. Many cultures revere Mars. I guess that someone claiming to be from Barsoom will bugger it up.

[4bee]

If it had been the French or the Dutch there would be no Aborigines left to argue who owned a rock in the middle of the continent.


The French would have mined it to oblivion & the Dutch would have made Edam Cheese out of it.[smilebigeye] There is a point. Is the rock composed of Copper & Gold & other rare Minerals?? Interesting to see what they dig up after the gates are shut for good. Drilling machines boring into the walls & the top, "Hey what about the ban on climbing" "Ah Boss, that for white phellas only. Excuse me, I have to go up & place the charges for the next blast. Now where is that "Climbing Chain?"[smilebigeye]

Cynical? Moi?

[Tins]

The French would have mined it to oblivion & the Dutch would have made Edam Cheese out of it.[smilebigeye]

And neither would have given a stuff about Dreaming and cave paintings, the Harbour Bridge would have been a tower, water would have been brought south from the tropics ( bloody good idea IMO ) and Dan Andrews would be facing the guillotine. I'm not saying what I think of that last prediction. Educated people are free to guess.

[blackrangie]

What’s done is done. Move on.Whats done can be undone, people power.

[Tins]

Whats done can be undone, people power.

Really? Undo the Bourke Street Massacre. Better still, bring my wife back to me from her liver cancer. Can people power do that? I try, every night, and I can't seem to manage it. I await your help.

You need to think before you speak. I tell myself this, but I don't usually listen.

[Arapiles]

Why not? Any creek or river allows you to cross private land, as no waterway can be owned by an individual. Did you not know that?

That doesn't make a lot of sense - yes, waterways are owned by the Crown but you don't have a right to access a waterway by crossing private property. As an example, there are plenty of riverfront properties in Melbourne but you can't access the Yarra by going through someone's place.

[Tombie]

That doesn't make a lot of sense - yes, waterways are owned by the Crown but you don't have a right to access a waterway by crossing private property. As an example, there are plenty of riverfront properties in Melbourne but you can't access the Yarra by going through someone's place.

But you can access vast areas of this country on PARs

[blackrangie]

Really? Undo the Bourke Street Massacre. Better still, bring my wife back to me from her liver cancer. Can people power do that? I try, every night, and I can't seem to manage it. I await your help.

You need to think before you speak. I tell myself this, but I don't usually listen.Your examples are not in context at all to be fair.

Apologies if any offence caused regarding your interpretation of my positivity, maybe i could have been more clear.

Trying to be positive and yes if enough people want it, and show it, "it" in context can be reversed.

[Tins]

That doesn't make a lot of sense - yes, waterways are owned by the Crown but you don't have a right to access a waterway by crossing private property. As an example, there are plenty of riverfront properties in Melbourne but you can't access the Yarra by going through someone's place.

I didn't say you could. I was trying to point out that the Crown overrides personal ownership, which Tombie did in a better way.

However, I would add that all those Yarra frontages are unable to prevent me from accessing them from the water, at high tide downstream of Dight's Falls.

Err, of course the Yarra ain't tidal above Dight's Falls. The same rules apply of course. Waterways belong to us all.

[Tins]

Your examples are not in context at all to be fair.

Apologies if any offence caused regarding your interpretation of my positivity, maybe i could have been more clear.

Trying to be positive and yes if enough people want it, and show it, "it" in context can be reversed.

You implied "people power " could override anything. I implied that you were wrong. Nothing in the past can be changed. That's what makes it the past.

I'm unsure what context has to do with anything. Can I reverse the Roman Empire because I don't like it? How do I reverse "It" in context? The idea is absurd.

[blackrangie]

You implied "people power " could override anything. I implied that you were wrong. Nothing in the past can be changed. That's what makes it the past.

I'm unsure what context has to do with anything. Can I reverse the Roman Empire because I don't like it? How do I reverse "It" in context? The idea is absurd.Agreed mate, was just trying to be positive and in the context of decisions made by Govts or organizations, if enough people want it changed, it can and will in most cases be changed. Again apologies for my wording.

[Tins]

Agreed mate, was just trying to be positive and in the context of decisions made by Govts or organizations, if enough people want it changed, it can and will in most cases be changed. Again apologies for my wording.

Got it. How easy is it for context to be lost in words??

NOBODY understands me, and yet I can be amazingly eloquent when allowed to speak. You hear far differently to how you read. This is something around 99% of folk on this forum need to learn, and I'll bet none of them does, including me.

[Fatso]

Think I mentioned Mt Augustus in my original, controversial as usual. post. Seems though that Uluru is a monolith, whereas Mt Augustus in a monocline. I'm not sure of the difference, but maybe the "traditional owners" are.

Do the Wajarri mind if you climb it?

The area including Mt Augustus is a gazetted National Park and is only known as Burringurrah by the Local Wajjari Aboriginal people , as far as i know there is no significant or cultural aspect to the Monolith . No problem in climbing it and is encouraged .

The difference is as far as i know is a Monolith is made up of multiple rock types and not just one rock type like Ayres Rock / Ularu .

[manic]

Love a bit of people power. Congrats to the Anangu!

There are lots of places you can't go in Australia. Some views you would love to see but don't even know exist, or existed. And if you did, you wouldn't be allowed in anyway - certainly not en masse!

Vast swathes of land are shut off for military, mining or otherwise private use.

And yet some of you seem to be ****ed off that a small group of indiginous people have effected a tiny win for their community.

You can still go to Uluru, it is not getting blown up for extraction ffs!

[4bee]

Uluru climb closed forever: Final hikers lashed for behaviour (https://www.news.com.au/travel/australian-holidays/northern-territory/ulurus-climb-to-the-summit-closed-forever/news-story/85d56a32dcfe6c84f55b31fe0e91e3c9)


Now you lot have been & gone & done it.


See what you've done.[biggrin]

Selfish barstewards.

I see the Rangers in the images have all the climbing gear on but what were they going to anchor themselves to now all the infrastructure has gone? POSERS![biggrin]

[4bee]

And neither would have given a stuff about Dreaming and cave paintings, the Harbour Bridge would have been a tower, water would have been brought south from the tropics ( bloody good idea IMO ) and Dan Andrews would be facing the guillotine. I'm not saying what I think of that last prediction. Educated people are free to guess.


Nuts to that. [smilebigeye]

[Tins]

You can still go to Uluru, it is not getting blown up for extraction ffs!

Can the Anangu still climb it?

People moan and convulse about "racism" and yet continue to champion it. Or is being Australian now selective?

[Saitch]

I wonder how long before some sort of "Compensation" issue raises its head?

[W&KO]

I wonder how long before some sort of "Compensation" issue raises its head?

I see the mobs in SEQLD are now wanting the same for the glasshouse mountains.

Uluru-style climbing ban called for Sunshine Coast summits by indigenous elders | 7NEWS.com.au (https://7news.com.au/news/qld/uluru-style-climbing-ban-called-for-sunshine-coast-summits-by-indigenous-elders-c-529511)

[trout1105]

I wonder how long before some sort of "Compensation" issue raises its head?

IF there is any compensation issue it wont be the Anangu that will be getting It, it will be the rest of the Australians that will be due compensation because they have been locked out of the climb.

[4bee]

I wonder how long before some sort of "Compensation" issue raises its head?



Funny you had that thought, Saitch[biggrin]. Just need a couple of switched on Aboriginal Activists in there & awaaaaaaaaay we go..






You can still go to Uluru, it is not getting blown up for extraction ffs



[biggrin]I must have got the date wrong then, I know it's not quite Nov 1 not April 1.

[Pickles2]

I see the mobs in SEQLD are now wanting the same for the glasshouse mountains.

Uluru-style climbing ban called for Sunshine Coast summits by indigenous elders | 7NEWS.com.au (https://7news.com.au/news/qld/uluru-style-climbing-ban-called-for-sunshine-coast-summits-by-indigenous-elders-c-529511)
And don't forget Victoria, where the Grampions & Mount Arapiles are atttracting the same "attention"!
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

The other side of this story.

I notice the Anungu only get 25% of the gate price, and government in fighting means much of it isn't being spent on their needs for housing because of a fight over who pays for power and water.


Closing the climb was the easy part — creating a brighter future for Uluru's people is much harder
Closing the climb was the easy part — creating a brighter future for the people who live there is much harder - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-11-03/why-closing-the-uluru-climb-was-the-easy-part/11666528)

[4bee]

Shirley some bright sparks would have considered all that?

Yeah, right.[bigsad]

But look at all the crap around the Community Centre. 10 minutes with a few taking part could have that joint tidied up even for the camera.

Has no-one any pride in the place & their surroundings??

It certainly doesn't instill confidence on what will happen in the future. I've noticed the same lack of pride in footage of the settlements as well, bloody old cars & crap etc lying around the places..

Don't give me any of the olde "it is their way of Life & we can't change that" bollocks. Maybe the " now unemployed" Rangers could set an example? The world (UN) criticises Australia for not taking care of these people, so where does all the money go, Admin, fat salaries to CEOs etc etc?


I notice the Anungu only get 25% of the gate price, and government in fighting means much of it isn't being spent on their needs for housing because of a fight over who pays for power and water.


So the residents are being exploited because the suits can't sort that out? Some hope for the rest of us eh?

[BMKal]

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