Defender TD5 Electrical Fault

[solmanic]

I have an intermittent electrical fault in my 02MY Defender - all the electrics cut out periodically both stationary and on the road. And I mean ALL the electrics, even the hazard lights. On a couple of occasions the radio has reset itself. Most of the time it is for only a fraction of a second, when driving a couple of times it was so brief the engine just hiccupped and then kept going.

Now I have already checked the battery terminals and they are secure, I have pressed all the fuses and relays in the fuse box - they seem fine. Can't find anything loose in the ECU box under the driver's seat. It seems most likely that it is a loose connection, and somewhere straight off the battery.

Has anybody got any ideas? Are there any connections that are particularly prone to jiggling loose? It has started (some time) after our last off-road foray. Not overly rambunctious, but maybe it was enough to unsettle whatever it is that's loose.

[George130]

Have you got a volts guage if so check the connections. Might be worth checking the alternator wires as well. They were the causes on our old cars.
Good luck.

[rangieman]

might just be a bad earth prob as well https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[DEFENDERZOOK]

<span style="color:#006600">yep...it sounds like a loose earth.....not neccessarily on the battery terminal...but maybe on the other end of
that wire.....and find the one from the chassis to the engine as well.....




turn on your radio loud enough to hear it from under the bonnet etc....then just start wiggling wires around till
you find the one causing the problems......
check also the connectors on the ecu havent come loose......


thinking about it a bit more...a dead short could cause the same problem but is more serious.......
make sure the battery isnt bouncing around.....</span>

[CraigE]

I have had a similar problem on the Fender, more so before start up. It was a relay. Could here it clicking.
Check your ECU connection for oil as well, this can cause similar dramas.

[hiline]

mine used to do the same sort of thing..... https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

then one day on our way back from camping it just stopped on the side of the road


we had no power at all didn&#39;t even have dash lights when ignition was on



turned out to be a loose earth wire in the Inner passenger front gaurd

it only took the dealership 9days to find it https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

[drivesafe]

Hi solmanic, you seem to have covered the obvious by checking the leads and, as pointed out by zook, a dead short is another culprit that can cause that sort of problem.

Try checking in and around the starter motor and starter motor solenoid as this is one of the few places around a vehicle where you can have a dead short but where there is no fuse protection, so it can happen repeatedly without any indication.

Cheers and keep us informed.

[JDNSW]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(solmanic &#064; May 17 2006, 08&#58;35 PM) Quoted post</div><div class='quotemain'>
I have an intermittent electrical fault in my 02MY Defender - all the electrics cut out periodically both stationary and on the road. And I mean ALL the electrics, even the hazard lights. On a couple of occasions the radio has reset itself. Most of the time it is for only a fraction of a second, when driving a couple of times it was so brief the engine just hiccupped and then kept going.

Now I have already checked the battery terminals and they are secure, I have pressed all the fuses and relays in the fuse box - they seem fine. Can&#39;t find anything loose in the ECU box under the driver&#39;s seat. It seems most likely that it is a loose connection, and somewhere straight off the battery.

Has anybody got any ideas? Are there any connections that are particularly prone to jiggling loose? It has started (some time) after our last off-road foray. Not overly rambunctious, but maybe it was enough to unsettle whatever it is that&#39;s loose.
[/b][/quote]

I remember hearing of a similar problem with a Defender that turned out to be one of the main battery leads was faulty in that one end terminal was not properly soldered onto the cable itself. The fact that this has happened at least once suggests that removing and examining the terminal attachments and replacing any suspect cables could be worthwhile - or even replace the main battery cables on spec - should be pretty easy and cheap.

[solmanic]

Thanks for all the info guys - the vehicle is at the dealer getting some other things seen to. I'll work through this list when I get it back.

[solmanic]

Just a follow-up to fill you in on what's been happening. I picked the Defender up from the dealer and they, not surprisingly, said they couldn't locate the problem. This was mainly due to the fact that they couldn't replicate it in the workshop - typical!
Anyway, five minutes up the road I stopped at the post office and got out to check the box. When I got back in and turned the key - dash lights flickered, fuel pump cut in and out a bit and the whole thing went dead. I tried turning the key a few times but no luck. Then it all started lighting up again but the car was immobilised (usually does this when you leave it for a while without locking it). I went to press the keytag to re-mobilise the car but got no response - red alarm light still on. Then, again for no reason, the red alarm light flickered and away she went.
Now at this stage I thought it was just the same old problem, but when I got to the bank later on I went to lock the car - pressed the button and nothing happened. No response at all from the keytag but the car would still start OK.
I rang the dealer and explained all this and they said to bring it back so they could check the keytag. Sure enough, they found the battery in it was dead but I'm not sure if it carked it only just then or whether it was on the way out before. They said it might be possible that the dodgy battery in the keytag was causing all the problems but I'm not convinced as the flickering lights seem more like a loose connection.
I'll keep you posted if the problem persists or if this was, somehow, the cause of it all.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

a dodgy battery in the remote wont cause that......it will cause it not to start......
or it will not allow you to lock or unlock(cos the battery is dead and it wont work).....


what you are describing is a power problem.....you simply have a dodgy connection somwhere....
these are not easy to find......
have you checked your ecu to make sure your harness isnt full of oil......?
have you checked any of the earth leads to see if any are loose....?

if yes.....then just simply start the car...and wiggle some wiring around to see if you can replicate the problem....
until you can find what is causing it you obviously cant fix it.....




ON VERY RARE OCCASSIONS......
another thing that causes all sorts of "gremlins" is a dodgy alternator....
it will still work and charge and do what it is supposed to....
but will confuse the ecu in the process and throw up all sorts of faults on the dash....
very hard to diagnose cos nothing is wrong...it all works....
this is always the absolute last resort to electrical problems which are intermittent
and can never be found.....you could replace the whole wiring harness and every sensor....
and the ecu and the problem will still be there.....till someone decides to try an alternator.....
but dont bother with this...i just posted to let you know how much fun electrical faults can be.....

how dealerships diagnose problems is by swapping suspect parts or sensors with other vehicles
and seeing if the problem is fixed or transferred to the other vehicle....
the only way to do this at home...is to find someone who has the same vehicle and is willing
to lend you bits of it to try and find your problem.....

[solmanic]

Yes, well hoping the problem was somehow the result of the dodgy remote was wishful thinking. The vehicle cut out about five times again last night.

Unfortunately one of those times was just as I stopped and, once again, everything went dead. Not lights, hazards, ignition, locks - nothing.
I thought maybe if I give the car a shake it might come good - and it did! Still had another couple of hiccups on the way home, but when they happen on the road the general movement & vibration must be enough to make whatever it is re-connect.

Now, my diagnosis is - it can't be a short circuit or I would have expected a blown fuse somewhere. It is killing ALL electrics which means either something breaking contact directly off the battery or an earth connection. Battery itself is ruled out - tested & fine. Battery earth/negative lead checked and secure to both chassis & transmission housing. Battery positive secure to battery but haven't gone any further yet.

I still can't believe with this kind of detailed info the dealer couldn't locate anything. It must be a major connection, and how many of those are there? Pretty much everything beyond the fusebox is on isolated circuits (including the ECU) so I would have thought this should narrow down my search abit. Beyond the basics (ie bits I can see) I just don't have any idea of where the Defender's wiring runs to follow a logical path to the problem.

[Tusker]

I'm guessing now

Maybe the battery has an internal fault. A loose plate that's not connecting properly, or similar. A bit of movement giving an intermittent fault.

Anyway, its easy enough to swap out a battery & see what happens.

Regards
Max P

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Yes, well hoping the problem was somehow the result of the dodgy remote was wishful thinking. The vehicle cut out about five times again last night.

Unfortunately one of those times was just as I stopped and, once again, everything went dead. Not lights, hazards, ignition, locks - nothing.
I thought maybe if I give the car a shake it might come good - and it did! Still had another couple of hiccups on the way home, but when they happen on the road the general movement & vibration must be enough to make whatever it is re-connect.

Now, my diagnosis is - it can't be a short circuit or I would have expected a blown fuse somewhere. It is killing ALL electrics which means either something breaking contact directly off the battery or an earth connection. Battery itself is ruled out - tested & fine. Battery earth/negative lead checked and secure to both chassis & transmission housing. Battery positive secure to battery but haven't gone any further yet.

I still can't believe with this kind of detailed info the dealer couldn't locate anything. It must be a major connection, and how many of those are there? Pretty much everything beyond the fusebox is on isolated circuits (including the ECU) so I would have thought this should narrow down my search abit. Beyond the basics (ie bits I can see) I just don't have any idea of where the Defender's wiring runs to follow a logical path to the problem.
Surely the fact that it's killing everything must make it easy to fault find. Start at the battery with your voltmeter until you run out of volts?

I don't understand why your dealer can't do this. :huh: :huh:

[johnv]

Hi,

Had something similar in my TD5. Car started, then all died and that was it.

Found it was a loose earth. Near the battery box there is 3 or 4 nuts/bolts with earth leads bolted to them. One was loose and thats all it took to completley kill my car

Good luck

[solmanic]

The challenge is catching it when the fault is occurring. Since it happens mainly on the road, and only for an instant, it is very hard to replicate.
The latest news from the dealer is that it may be the actual battery-earth lead itself. Not at any connection, but somewhere along the lead there is a break (how that happened who knows). We are waiting for confirmation after it has been driven around a bit with a new one.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

if you were closer i would look at it for you.....

it shouldnt be that hard to find......
it seems to me all they are doing is driving it around and waiting for it die.....
which it never does for the repairman......

get it off them and just try what i told you....with it running.....start pushing...pulling....tugging....bending....flexing ....etc.....the wires you can see
starting from the battery and working back.....till you find one that causes your problem......

when it dies while you have your headlights on......do the park lights remain on.....
or do they switch off as well.....?

[solmanic]

Park lights & everything - dead. I can see what you're getting at since the headlights go off with the ignition. No, it is definitely ALL dead. Hazard lights off as well. Still no word from the dealer to let me know if they are satisfied that the earth lead was the problem. At least they're making an effort this time. I don't know what they were doing (or not doing) whilst it was with them last week, but they had four days to find the fault. I picked it up and had it happen six times in the next 24 hours!

Unfortunately it's not just as easy as turning it on and jiggling wires. A few times when the power cut-out, when it came back on the car was immobilised and the alarm started going off. It appears that I still don't have the right security code to re-mobilise the vehicle. RACQ say this is a common problem as people often never need to use the code so no-one checks that it is the right one - and it often isn't. Consequently I'm happy to let the dealer work on it for a bit with the alarm going off every two minutes - keeps my neighbours happier.

[solmanic]

Well the dealer thought they had found the problem - loose chassis connection on the main earth lead off the negative terminal of the battery. One of their guys wiggled it and things cut out and in. So they cleaned it up and re-tightened it - also checked all the other earth connections with no problems.

My wife picked it up and 20 minutes up the road, started cutting out again. Only a bit, and not enough to stop the car this time, but still the same problem. I took it out again this evening, and, you guessed it, another call for a tow truck.

It is back to the dealer in the morning and they are going to check a bit harder this time, but I am leaning more towards the loose battery plate idea. It occurs to me that if they were jiggling the main earth lead, it could have been jiggling the battery as well. I would think that if they have checked all the other earth connections, the battery is the only thing that has not been thoroughly scrutinised. I have passed this information on to them (I mentioned it the other day but when they thought they had found the problem I guess they stopped looking).

More to come I'm sure.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

i like the idea of a loose plate in the battery.....
but wouldnt that just drop a cell.....reducing the voltage to 10v....

it should still keep running though cos the alternator is still running things.....
come to think of it....if it open circuits the battery....yes...that could do it....

want to borrow a battery.....?

[solmanic]

I'll see how they go today.
In the meantime, I've learnt a bit about the alarm/immobiliser setup which might make future outages less dramatic. Part of the problem is that if I lock it using the keytag and the power cuts out, the car thinks it has been broken into when the power comes back on (usually once I've manually unlocked the door and tried to start it). Consequently every breakdown is accompanied by a chorus of horns and flashing lights.
Until this problem is sorted, I will resort to using only the manual key for a few weeks. This should prevent the alarm from being activated, but I'm not sure about the immobiliser.
While I was waiting for the tow truck last night one of the guys from the LandRover service centre happened to drive by and, recognising the rego (I'm just about on first name terms with them all now) stopped to see what the problem was. At least he got to see the problem as it was happening so that's something I guess.

[dhumphri]

If you look on the Rave CD there are a number of main earthing points on the vehicle - have all been checked?

Major earth points:

Centre of engine compartment bulkhead/firewall
LH side of transfer box
Beneath RH rear wheel arch
Adjacent reear screen wiper motor

Darren

[solmanic]

The dealer said they had checked all the main earthing points - maybe not thoroughly though. In any case, they say that wiggling the main lead off the battery under the car (the one that goes to the chassis & gearbox) caused the electrics to cut in & out. I tried this last night after it died again and it did no good.

Thanks for the info on the other two points - RH rear guard & rear screen (yeah, they make sense). I'll familiarise myself with these when, and if, I get the car back.

[4bee]

Do these have a Fusible Link? Could be an intermittent fault with that if it has. Just a thought.

[solmanic]

OK - another update from the dealer. They have found the lead from the battery to the fusebox under the driver's seat was dodgy. Everyone is being careful not to say conclusively that this was THE problem, but it is definitely A problem. A new lead has been ordered and will be fitted tomorrow - then we'll see.

Funny though, I noticed that the alien spaceship that is usually parked on the roof is gone now...