Austraia's F35. Lessons from a problematic purchase

[bob10]

Australia needs a new Bomber, because the F35 is inadequate for future strike operations. Was our Government conned by the US Government / defence industry?

Our Air Force is incapable of defending our lines of communication , or prevent the lodgement of a hostile power in the INDO Pacific region. What now ?

Australia’s F-35s: Lessons from a problematic purchase (https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/australia-s-f-35s-lessons-from-problematic-purchase)

[cripesamighty]

The F-35 is only half a solution for Australia as it is a tactical, not strategic aircraft, ie. cannot replicate the long-range/payload package of the F-111.
The article below answers some of those questions though.

Closing Australia’s long-range strike gap requires a robust space capability | The Strategist (https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/closing-australias-long-range-strike-gap-requires-a-robust-space-capability/)

[Bigbjorn]

The F-35 is only half a solution for Australia as it is a tactical, not strategic aircraft, ie. cannot replicate the long-range/payload package of the F-111.
The article below answers some of those questions though.

Closing Australia’s long-range strike gap requires a robust space capability | The Strategist (https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/closing-australias-long-range-strike-gap-requires-a-robust-space-capability/)

Remember the abslute cluster **** of the F111 purchase. Delivery date blew out by years and years and the cost skyrocketed. One political commentator of the time was wont to refer to it as "The Flying Opera House".

[cripesamighty]

Oh, the F-111 was a mess in the beginning alright - as most aircraft on the 'bleeding edge' of technology are. BUT, unlike the F-35, it's ROLE was very long-range interdiction/strike. Once the bugs were ironed out it was world class, and gave endless worries to the Warsaw Pact in Europe during the Cold War. Ask Gaddafi how well he slept after the Libya raid in 1986!

The F-35 will eventually get sorted given enough money and because the project is now TBTF - too big to fail. BUT, even packed with tons of techno whiz-bang thingys and doo-hickeys, and no matter how well it's systems are integrated across the battlespace, the F-35 will only ever be a short-ranged tactical jet compared to the F-111.

We still desperately need the F-111 airframes 'capabilities' in whatever type of platform(s) that may eventually be. That is the very crux of the problem which needs sorting.

[bob10]

The B21 seems to fit the bill, but it would have to be at the expense of the future submarines. The old argument of air vs sea will go thru its paces again. I have to admit, a force of B21's with an operational base in central Australia sounds good at face value. However, the infrastructure needed to support them [ target acquisition, damage assessment, weapons used, base protection, would make it a very expensive option indeed. The f35 will not provide the fleet with air cover any distance from the airfields, the only fleet defence option with the f35 is aircraft carriers, but without proper infrastructure around them [ anti air and anti submarine assets] the carriers are little more than expensive targets. I believe the B21 and nuclear submarines are our best option. We would have to discover massive oil deposits to afford that, but that would present another problem altogether. We will probably do what we have always done. Make do with what we have, and hope for the best, at the expense of the lives of our service men and women.

Is the B-21 bomber a viable option for Australia? | The Strategist (https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/is-the-b-21-bomber-a-viable-option-for-australia/)

[cripesamighty]

We don't have to necessarily buy new American subs (if we could get over the nuclear bogieman). Another viewpoint is that we can always lease/share them. See article below...

China and Russia's Worst Nightmare: America Starts Selling Nuclear Submarines | The National Interest (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/china-and-russias-worst-nightmare-america-starts-selling-nuclear-submarines-94531)

[bob10]

We don't have to necessarily buy new American subs (if we could get over the nuclear bogieman). Another viewpoint is that we can always lease/share them. See article below...

China and Russia's Worst Nightmare: America Starts Selling Nuclear Submarines | The National Interest (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/china-and-russias-worst-nightmare-america-starts-selling-nuclear-submarines-94531)


"Between 1948-1967 Penguin
was home to the Royal Navy's Fourth Submarine Squadron before the First Australian Submarine Squadron was formed in 1968 and home-ported at HMAS Platypus
, Neutral Bay.. " Sailors from the RAN did a basic submariners course and escape tank training in the UK and then trained as part of the RN crew, until the decision was made to buy the Oberons. The Aussies then went to the UK and formed the crews on our first Oberons. as they were built., training on RN subs while they waited. . There's no doubt the Brits make good submarines. Something like that may be feasible with the Astute class.

[cripesamighty]

Tyler Rogoway's view of what the feasible options are for Australia, re: long range strike capabilities, that were mentioned in the last article as hypotheticals.

Australia Buying B-21 Raider Stealth Bombers Is A Fantasy But Other Options Exist - The Drive (https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/31211/australia-buying-b-21-raider-stealth-bombers-is-a-fantasy-but-other-options-exist)

[DiscoMick]

Forward bases, subs, missiles and aerial refuelling sound logical to me, but I'm no expert.

[cripesamighty]

And some B-1 bombers as icing on the cake for long range interdiction/strike...

[bob10]

Forward bases, subs, missiles and aerial refuelling sound logical to me, but I'm no expert.


More desalination plants, and a proper water management policy , fully funded, sounds better to me. It's too easy to get caught up in an arms race, we have to determine what our long term priorities are. I have been guilty in the past of focusing on defence at all costs. Not so sure now. We can't afford top shelf.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, why are some people so keen for war with China? Do they want to revive the discredited 'Yellow Peril' and 'Reds under the beds' rubbish? Sounds a dumb idea to me.
Do we want to crash out economy? The Chinese want to do business, not invade. Let's stop waving guns around like stupid Trump and instead concentrate on doing business to the advantage of Australia.
War is not in Australia's best interests. Trade is very good for us.

[rick130]

Yes, why are some people so keen for war with China? Do they want to revive the discredited 'Yellow Peril' and 'Reds under the beds' rubbish? Sounds a dumb idea to me.
Do we want to crash out economy? The Chinese want to do business, not invade. Let's stop waving guns around like stupid Trump and instead concentrate on doing business to the advantage of Australia.
War is not in Australia's best interests. Trade is very good for us.Michael, the problem is CCP influence in our political affairs, and the wider region.
It is overt.

Having lived in Canberra for a number of years and worked around ANU for some of that time the influence the CCP was trying to exert via students and business was obvious.

[cripesamighty]

My mate did his PhD at Canberra's ANU and he mentioned the CCP 'influence' on several occasions.

[DiscoMick]

Yep, of course the Chinese are trying to influence us. So are the Yanks, British, French, Canadians, Indonesians, Japanese, Germans, Russians, Indians and others. The Brits own more of Australia than the Chinese.
Everybody tries to influence everyone else. That's world politics.
We're certainly trying very hard to influence other countries to our advantage. That's how the game is played.
Are we going to throw childish hissy fits about this, or are we going to grow up and act like nature adults?

[Eevo]

The Brits own more of Australia than the Chinese.


given they founded australia, is that really suprising?

i work in IT security and for the most part, the only worry we have here in Aust is china. not Russia, not Indonesia, etc

[cripesamighty]

Unless of course you work at Pearce Airbase North of Perth, where the main worry is the Singaporians.... [bigwhistle][biggrin]

[rick130]

Yep, of course the Chinese are trying to influence us. So are the Yanks, British, French, Canadians, Indonesians, Japanese, Germans, Russians, Indians and others. The Brits own more of Australia than the Chinese.
Everybody tries to influence everyone else. That's world politics.
We're certainly trying very hard to influence other countries to our advantage. That's how the game is played.
Are we going to throw childish hissy fits about this, or are we going to grow up and act like nature adults?The Chinese influence is very different, as the repeated cyber attacks on public and private institutions illustrate.
ANU had everything hacked last year, names addresses, everything siphoned off.
The CCP are much more aggressive than everyone else, and their bellicose and bullying attitude to their neighbours and anyone that disagrees with them is concerning.
South China Sea anyone?

[Eevo]

Unless of course you work at Pearce Airbase North of Perth, where the main worry is the Singaporians.... [bigwhistle][biggrin]
is that the training school?

[bob10]

Unless of course you work at Pearce Airbase North of Perth, where the main worry is the Singaporians.... [bigwhistle][biggrin]

Republic of Singapore 130 Squadron. And Squadron training aircraft. Probably safer than training over Singapore. For the Singaporeans. [wink11]

[cripesamighty]

I have a couple of friends who work at Pearce. It is an open secret that the Singaporian's are doing lots of snooping. In fact it's sometimes joked about, ie. guess who we caught in a restricted area, guess who we found with restricted material, etc. All countries spy on each other, just some are more aggressive than others. After that ANU hack, the Singaporians they have at Pearce just seem to be amateurs compared to the CCP though!

[DiscoMick]

I remember when the Thais got very upset when the Singaporean government investment fund bought the largest mobile phone company in Thailand. They assumed the Singaporeans would be spying on them.
Everybody spies on everybody. The Russians spied on the US and British elections.
It's good our people are very aware of Chinese spying, but there's nothing surprising about it.