Which FUEL is best in FREEZING Climate - Petrol or Diesel?

[Robmacca]

Guys....

Been following a few people on YouTube who full time tour in their 4WD's. Some of these 4WD's are Diesel and some are Petrol. It got me thinking as to which fuel handles the colder climate better(ie: not freezing and preventing u from starting your vehicle in the morning) - Petrol or Diesel? I know there is a special blend that is used in the winter times in the VHC and would assume this to also be the case overseas, but I'm not 100% sure...

What are people's thoughts/experiences in regards to travelling in freezing climates (ie: below zero)??

[AK83]

petrol.
something like -40°C freezing point.

[crash]

Doesn't matter - it comes down to having a damn good starting battery!

[JDNSW]

I have recently been editing a book on Antarctic operations fifty years ago. Most of their engines were diesel - and most used aviation turbine kerosine as fuel because the prevailing temperatures were well blow the pour point of diesel. At least one bulldozer used it as coolant as well. But petrol was used for all small motors except for generators that operated 24/7., and most of the cold associated issues with these resulted from ice crystals blocking fuel lines and jets.

My conclusion from this would be that the cold had little effect on why petrol or diesel was used - the greater economy of diesel was the major reason for its use, same as in warmer climates.

[Robmacca]

I have recently been editing a book on Antarctic operations fifty years ago. Most of their engines were diesel - and most used aviation turbine kerosine as fuel because the prevailing temperatures were well blow the pour point of diesel. At least one bulldozer used it as coolant as well. But petrol was used for all small motors except for generators that operated 24/7., and most of the cold associated issues with these resulted from ice crystals blocking fuel lines and jets.

My conclusion from this would be that the cold had little effect on why petrol or diesel was used - the greater economy of diesel was the major reason for its use, same as in warmer climates.


Thanks... I was curious as to when u stop your travels to camp over night, then go to start your vehicle in the morning - which one is more likely to have issues in starting the engine due to frozen fuel in the fuel lines...

[RANDLOVER]

The non-winterised diesel, but at least it is not as volatile when one tries to thaw it out with a blow torch!

[JDNSW]

I had issues with non-winterised fuel at Ayers Rock in 1966, but that is the only time. Provided you have the appropriate fuel it is not an issue. (I changed the first filter and got going)

[Bigbjorn]

I can't speak for modern electronic injection diesels. My experience has been with mechanical injection engines. Detroit two strokes will start in virtually any circumstances unless they are really badly worn. Isuzu 4BD1 in my County likewise. Cummins 855 series do not like cold starts and in anything much below 40 degrees F. need a squirt of ether. Pre-chamber engines are also reluctant starters from cold. In the USA snow states I have seen trucks with an exhaust bypass that directs warm exhaust gases over the outlet of the fuel tank and the vehicle left idling all night.

[4bee]

I have recently been editing a book on Antarctic operations fifty years ago. Most of their engines were diesel - and most used aviation turbine kerosine as fuel because the prevailing temperatures were well blow the pour point of diesel. At least one bulldozer used it as coolant as well. But petrol was used for all small motors except for generators that operated 24/7., and most of the cold associated issues with these resulted from ice crystals blocking fuel lines and jets.

My conclusion from this would be that the cold had little effect on why petrol or diesel was used - the greater economy of diesel was the major reason for its use, same as in warmer climates.


Bugger the fuel. John, the book sounds really interesting are you able to give more details on that yet?

50 years ago I recall a lot of the activity published at those times. Antarctica holds a special fascination for me as it does for many. Mawson lived just up the road from here. House is still there.

Were you there in those heady days?

[JDNSW]

Bugger the fuel. John, the book sounds really interesting are you able to give more details on that yet?

50 years ago I recall a lot of the activity published at those times. Antarctica holds a special fascination for me as it does for many. Mawson lived just up the road from here. House is still there.

Were you there in those heady days?

I have never been to Antarctica, but my brother spent 1970 there - hence I ended up editing the book (plus my experience as a technical editor). Current situation is it is just about "print ready", and the publisher has to make a final decision to go ahead. I assume that this will be fairly soon, as I had to give my volume editor's views by this Tuesday. Publication should be by the middle of next year assuming all goes well.

[4bee]

Thanks John, I did wonder whether you had been South since you appear to have had a sort of "roving"
sort of life so would not have been surprised..

Would you please keep me/us informed when you have firm release details?

Thanks.

[RANDLOVER]

…………... In the USA snow states I have seen trucks with an exhaust bypass that directs warm exhaust gases over the outlet of the fuel tank and the vehicle left idling all night.

Ah modern technology, I've heard stories of truckers in Russia draining the oil and water at night into tin cans/metal buckets which they then heat up on a fire in the morning to put in the truck to get going again. Also Alaskan bush pilots, putting a blow torch in the plane's exhaust pipes and turning the propeller backwards to suck the warmth into the cylinders!

[prelude]

Petrol has a lower freezing point than diesel. Sure, aviation fuel will also work as a replacement for diesel but out of the box petrol needs no changes. Mind you, bio ethanol fuel is a different story since it is prone to attract water which does freeze of course, I am talking about "real" fuel here :)

What I found on my trip to the north cape is that the stuff in your engine is a bigger problem to deal with since fuel stations modify their diesel accordingly to the season. Engine oil get's so thick that cranking the engine becomes too difficult for a battery that is already stressed due to the cold and coolant can only be modified to go so far (or low I should say). Also, even if you did get the engine to fire the oil would not do it's job and wear your engine pretty damn quick. The cooling properties of the coolant are affected as well in such low temperatures but the big advantage is: it's bloody cold as it is already!

When I made my trip I stopped at my dads mechanic in Sweden and had him put way thinner oil in my V8 to cope with the extreme cold going up north. The spare oil I had with me had turned into molasses...

Then again, I have never been in temperatures below -40c so beyond that I have no experience.

Cheers,
-P

[JDNSW]

Years ago I owned a Cessna 180 aeroplane. While it was not fitted with this gadget, the owner's manual included operating instructions for a gadget that added fuel to the sump at a fixed rate per second, and it included a table as to how much to add according to the temperature. From memory the maximum amount of fuel added was the same amount of fuel as there was oil in the sump. As the engine warmed up the fuel in the oil evaporated - oil gets hot in aircooled engines.

[oka374]

We travelled quite a bit through winter in the US and Canada in a petrol V8 F250 with slide on camper on the back, minimum temps were about -26 on the thermometer plus wind chill overnight.
The Effie sat for three days at those temps half buried in snow and starting it was only one of the problems, getting the doors unlocked and opened was the first problem and once inside the engine was very reluctant to start but after a few cranks it fired up enough cylinders to eventually start idling. We regularly had temps of -10 to -12 which were more common and it did start much easier at that temperature.
I'm not sure that I'd like to try starting the Oka's Cummins 6BT at such temps, it is hard to start below about 2 or 3, struggles at -2 and won't start at -7 at all, had to wait for the sun to come up and warm the air and things around it before it went that day. I've since plumbed a Webasto Thermotop into the heater circuit which can warm it up before trying to start it in cold weather.
The Cummins has no glowplugs or intake heater hence the hard to start problem.

[Bigbjorn]

We travelled quite a bit through winter in the US and Canada in a petrol V8 F250 with slide on camper on the back, minimum temps were about -26 on the thermometer plus wind chill overnight.
The Effie sat for three days at those temps half buried in snow and starting it was only one of the problems, getting the doors unlocked and opened was the first problem and once inside the engine was very reluctant to start but after a few cranks it fired up enough cylinders to eventually start idling. We regularly had temps of -10 to -12 which were more common and it did start much easier at that temperature.
I'm not sure that I'd like to try starting the Oka's Cummins 6BT at such temps, it is hard to start below about 2 or 3, struggles at -2 and won't start at -7 at all, had to wait for the sun to come up and warm the air and things around it before it went that day. I've since plumbed a Webasto Thermotop into the heater circuit which can warm it up before trying to start it in cold weather.
The Cummins has no glowplugs or intake heater hence the hard to start problem.

I once worked at the Oz distributor of a line of high quality US made earthmoving equipment. All their engines came equipped with a plug-in block heater as standard equipment. No use here as the heater was 110 volt. The gear was made in Minnesota and their big market place was the mid-West, Great Plains, and prairie states where it does get a tad chilly.

I know from personal experience that the Cummins 855 series do not like starting at temperatures below 5-8 degrees C. In fact Cummins used to supply them with an ether starting system as standard equipment. They would cough and fart and blow white smoke, run on one cylinder then two or three and back to one and so on until the combustion chambers warmed up and stopped blowing copious quantities of the white fuel smoke. Get them running and leave them idle to warm up whilst you had breakfast. The worst were the crane carrier and fire appliance versions of the NTA series. Higher rpm engines and fueled up for horsepower. Real buggers when cold. White smoke like a Melbourne fog.

One of the reasons why I like Detroit two strokes. Always started easily unless almost totally worn out. Start up, walk around and tap the tyres and by the time you had full brake air they were ready to drive away and work.

[V8Ian]

A lot of 855s were fitted with a decompression lever too, Brian.

[Bigbjorn]

A lot of 855s were fitted with a decompression lever too, Brian.

I can't remember ever seeing one. Where were they used? Marine? Stationary?

[V8Ian]

I can't remember ever seeing one. Where were they used? Marine? Stationary?
My RC 64 had one.

[RANDLOVER]

I once worked at the Oz distributor of a line of high quality US made earthmoving equipment. All their engines came equipped with a plug-in block heater as standard equipment. No use here as the heater was 110 volt. The gear was made in Minnesota and their big market place was the mid-West, Great Plains, and prairie states where it does get a tad chilly...………………..
.

If you'd like one for your Landy try Engine Block Heater For Land Rovers (https://www.roverparts.com/Parts/PRC9674G)

Kenlowe used to make them as well but now seem to be just making fans for car co's.

[Bigbjorn]

My RC 64 had one.

That is interesting, Ian. I can not recall ever seeing this on any truck let alone a White. All the RC's I ever saw at WMCA had the ether start assist option. What year model RC and what engine model?

[V8Ian]

That is interesting, Ian. I can not recall ever seeing this on any truck let alone a White. All the RC's I ever saw at WMCA had the ether start assist option. What year model RC and what engine model?
74 IIRC, pre NTC, originally intercooled 350. It had a rare spec for an RC, massive radiator, 9 ton, six spoke front axle, RTO 12513, 5.29 44 Rockwells on RTE 460 on forged beams, GCM rated at 74tonne.

[crash]

In USA and Canada all vehicles come equipped or can be optioned with a block heater. Makes a huge difference with starting. There are a few different types all being electric which are magnetic heater that is stuck to the oil pan, an electric heater that goes into the block itself and ones that are inline of the heater hoses that heat the anti freeze. The inline ones are great because you have almost instant heat when you start the car as the anti freeze / coolant is already warmed up. Electric battery blankets are great as they keep the battery warm and you do not loose as much CCA.

Oils as mentioned are also important. natural oils can go done to 5w and synthetics 0w. Most common oil was either 5w40 or 0w40.
One of the farm tractors my dad had had a metal air cleaner, dad would sit this on the wood stove to warm up and then put it back onto the tractor just before trying to start. The effect was drawing in warm air and the tractor was a lot easier to start when dad did this.

I was at a friends house who has a collection of small dozers. On one of them it had a small pull start petrol motor which you would start first, the exhaust has plumped into the main diesel exhaust and the coolant was also plumped through this small motor and main motor.

I read the travel stories of an american who drove a diesel F350 through Russian during the winter. Temps were getting down to -60. The vehicle was equipped with heaters in the diesel tanks to make sure that the fuel did not gel and the vehicle would actually start. In those extreme temps a lot of vehicles do not get shut off and are left idling when not being used.
LPG can be a real bugger in the cold, and vehicles with LPG were a lot harder to start than any petrol or diesel.

[JDNSW]

... On one of them it had a small pull start petrol motor which you would start first, the exhaust has plumped into the main diesel exhaust and the coolant was also plumped through this small motor and main motor.

.....

This used to be very common with dozers in particular - a favourite setup for Caterpillar. The book about Antarctica I mentioned above they had a D6 with this. With temperatures as much as 40 below the procedure was to use a Herman Nelson preheater (blows hot air from a small petrol motor and a petrol burner) for an hour or more to allow the petrol motor to be started, which would then warm up the coolant for the diesel for perhaps another half hour before the main engine could be started. Their Nodwell tracked carriers had Detroit diesels, and as noted above, these were a lot easier to start (perhaps helped that the installation was designed in Canada).

A different setup I have seen on an old IH dozer was an extra combustion chamber that communicated by a valve to the main cylinder. Equipped with a small intake valve that went to a separate intake manifold with a carburettor and petrol supply. Pulling a lever opened the valve into the main cylinder and closed a throttle in the main air intake, so that when cranked a petrol air mixture was drawn into this extra chamber, which was equipped with a spark plug, run from a magneto. The lower compression enabled easy hand cranking, and the engine, started as a petrol engine, was warmed up before moving the lever to the running position closed the valve into the main cylinder, and opened the throttle on the main intake. With any sort of luck, the engine then continued running as a diesel.

Both these setups originated to enable the diesel engines (impossible to hand crank) to be started without needing an electrical system (other than the selfcontained magneto). As customers demanded electrics other than for starting, these sort of systems became redundant. Some early diesel tractors used cartridge start, another way of getting the same result.

[V8Ian]

74 IIRC, pre NTC, originally intercooled 350. It had a rare spec for an RC, massive radiator, 9 ton, six spoke front axle, RTO 12513, 5.29 44 Rockwells on RTE 460 on forged beams, GCM rated at 74tonne.
After giving it some thought, I think it was '76.

[oka374]

The Effie we had in Canada had the block heater, the plug was in the front grille and lots of places like shopping centres, car parks and most motels and hotels had plugs in front of each parking spot to connect to. We rarely stayed anywhere like that preferring to "boondock" as they call free camping over there, was great to wake up after a fresh six inches of snow overnight and bears wandering past. We found in really cold conditions that we could use a full 9kg bottle of "Propane" as they call LPG in four or five days if running the gas furnace in the slideon most of the night.

[Bigbjorn]

After giving it some thought, I think it was '76.

The spec gives it away. It was one the the US built imports known inside WMCA as the CBU's. WMCA imported a batch or two of RC's when they were just commencing Oz manufacture of the RC and needed stock. I wonder where an 18000 lb front axle came from. White made axles were 12000 and 14000 lb. Autocar had some whoppers made in house. Fortuna Engineering reckoned they could bend one to get correct RHD alignment. The steel beam set in concrete in their alignment bay bent and pulled out of the floor before the Autocar axle bent. Whoopsie[bigwhistle]

[Hogarthde]

The big ol Cummins N12 I looked at the other day had a de,compression lever, as did the a DB 900 we had on the farm. The FIAT dozer I still use has 4 de.compression plugs in the block, a dash fine thing at cold morning start up. The early FIAT tractors had the pilot motor ,viz a viz the Caterpillar John mentioned, a really good principle in that the engine got warm and oil and fuel pressure increased prior to the injection of distillate

The I H system worked well too , tho looked a bit strange to some with spark plugs on one side and injectors on the other. I think some switched to distillate automatically ,others operater controlled

Dave

[Bigbjorn]

The big ol Cummins N12 I looked at the other day had a de,compression lever, as did the a DB 900 we had on the farm. The FIAT dozer I still use has 4 de.compression plugs in the block, a dash fine thing at cold morning start up. The early FIAT tractors had the pilot motor ,viz a viz the Caterpillar John mentioned, a really good principle in that the engine got warm and oil and fuel pressure increased prior to the injection of distillate

The I H system worked well too , tho looked a bit strange to some with spark plugs on one side and injectors on the other. I think some switched to distillate automatically ,others operater controlled

Dave

Jesus wept. How old are those Fiats? What model dozer?

Pilot motors went out of use in new tractors 40 years ago at least.

That IH engine series were called semi-diesels. First seen in the 1930's and left behind by improvements in diesel engine design and electrical systems. Better starter motors and batteries giving push button start killed all these weird ideas on starting diesels. Gone by about 1950.

[Robmacca]

Jesus wept. How old are those Fiats? What model dozer?

Pilot motors went out of use in new tractors 40 years ago at least.

That IH engine series were called semi-diesels. First seen in the 1930's and left behind by improvements in diesel engine design and electrical systems. Better starter motors and batteries giving push button start killed all these weird ideas on starting diesels. Gone by about 1950.


Agreed.... I was more wanting to know about what's better in cold climates (Petrol or Diesel) with today's vehicles...

[JDNSW]

Agreed.... I was more wanting to know about what's better in cold climates (Petrol or Diesel) with today's vehicles...

Go back to my original comments in this thread - with today's vehicles, cold weather is not an issue for either fuel, certainly for any cold weather in this country. Which is not to say that particular models don't have cold weather problems due, for example, to inadequate battery capacity. But this has nothing to do with fuel type.

[prelude]

Modern vehicles have start/stop systems and what not so they use AGM batteries which is an advantage in cold climates; they provide more CCA compared to flooded. Although starting and running a modern engine in colder climates is fairly comparable, unless you go REALLY low (say -35 and beyond where petrol will edge out imho) there is also the minor little point of driver comfort. Modern frugal diesel engines simple do not heat up enough to be able to spare enough warmth to warm your interior. A less frugal petrol engine will have the edge here. My dad used to own a volvo V70 petrol and was nice and warm in winter (indeed with a block heater and interior heater so he got into a warm car to start with) but his current KIA eco diesel POS simply can't get the temp up (enough) in mid winter.

Mind you, my P38 with very frugal V8, of course, had no problem whatsoever keeping us nice and warm inside all the way [bigwhistle]

Cheers,
-P

[crash]

Modern vehicles have start/stop systems and what not so they use AGM batteries which is an advantage in cold climates; they provide more CCA compared to flooded. Although starting and running a modern engine in colder climates is fairly comparable, unless you go REALLY low (say -35 and beyond where petrol will edge out imho) there is also the minor little point of driver comfort. Modern frugal diesel engines simple do not heat up enough to be able to spare enough warmth to warm your interior. A less frugal petrol engine will have the edge here. My dad used to own a volvo V70 petrol and was nice and warm in winter (indeed with a block heater and interior heater so he got into a warm car to start with) but his current KIA eco diesel POS simply can't get the temp up (enough) in mid winter.

Mind you, my P38 with very frugal V8, of course, had no problem whatsoever keeping us nice and warm inside all the way [bigwhistle]

Cheers,
-P
I presume you are using a radiator cover in the winter - helps with keeping things warm!

[Bigbjorn]

Mind you, my P38 with very frugal V8, of course, had no problem whatsoever keeping us nice and warm inside all the way [bigwhistle]

Cheers,
-P

Being a Land Rover it would normally keep you warm without using the heater.[bigwhistle]

[prelude]

It does have a radiotor cover and some other gadgetry, I do not know how it works :)

The problem is compounded by road conditions however, small winding roads and ice do not match well so you have to adjust your driving style, even though in all months with an "r" (so september through to april) they drive with studded tyres. The engine is loaded a lot less and even less heat is produced. The trip to the nearest supermarket is 60K's though so eventually things might get warm.

-P

[RANDLOVER]

…………….
LPG can be a real bugger in the cold, and vehicles with LPG were a lot harder to start than any petrol or diesel.

Not just vehicles suffer with LPG, it can be difficult to light a gas ring in the cold, basically because not enough gas is "boiling off" due to the low temps i,e, most of the bottle content is liquid.

But don't be tempted to heat the gas bottle on an electric hotplate, as I knew a fridgie who tried this with a refrigeration bottle at a Telecom site, but got an urgent call out and forgot about the bottle, when he returned he said the workshop door looked like match wood lying in the yard.

[Red90]

You use vaporizers for LPG when it is cold. You can use it at any temperature.

[JDNSW]

Not just vehicles suffer with LPG, it can be difficult to light a gas ring in the cold, basically because not enough gas is "boiling off" due to the low temps i,e, most of the bottle content is liquid.


Actually, for LPG, almost all of the gas is always liquid with Liquid Petroleum Gas, the issue is when it is all liquid. A mixture of propane and butane, its usable minimum temperature depends on the proportions of these.

The boiling point of propane is about -42C, butane 0C at STP, higher when under pressure (but not much, at the pressures in LPG cylinders). So even pure propane will not work below about -40C.