Pssst want 400 cheap 737s?

[NavyDiver]

Boeing said " that it had 400 737 Max aircraft in storage."



Boeing to temporarily halt 737 Max production in January - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-50817124)

[Bigbjorn]

Boeing will do a software fix and offer them up as bargains. Always some cheap stingy operator who will buy the cheapest. Ryanair, Jetstar, Tiger Air, Frontier come to mind.

[V8Ian]

James, PM John Travolta. [tonguewink]

[Saitch]

Maybe a couple as Government aircraft would be OK?

[goingbush]

Convert them to Freighters , fire bombers , paying passengers wont fly in them, people do have short memories but I think the 737MAX / NG / 800 or whatever they want to call them is forever tarnished . I know I'd rather walk.

[DeanoH]

Reminds me of the De Haviland Comet. The worlds first commercial jet airliner, a truly ground breaking aircraft. Two crashes over a short period of time killing all on board. Unfortunately the idea of having large square(ish) cornered windows and 'non rip stop' fuselage design led to the Comets failure.
A poisoned chalice the Comet as it is more remembered for what went wrong as opposed to its ground breaking design.

Just like the Comet the 737 max with its MCAS system may also be a ground breaking development in aircraft design but it will forever be remembered for what went wrong not what it got right.

Deano

[bsperka]

You should never use software to hide a hardware problem.

[goingbush]

Reminds me of the De Haviland Comet. The worlds first commercial jet airliner, a truly ground breaking aircraft. Two crashes over a short period of time killing all on board. Unfortunately the idea of having large square(ish) cornered windows and 'non rip stop' fuselage design led to the Comets failure.
A poisoned chalice the Comet as it is more remembered for what went wrong as opposed to its ground breaking design.

Just like the Comet the 737 max with its MCAS system may also be a ground breaking development in aircraft design but it will forever be remembered for what went wrong not what it got right.

Deano

Interestingly the ill fated Comet went on to become the Hawker Siddeley Nimrod (Anti Submarine) , in service with RAF until 2011 , but never again in civil service.

The failure of the Comet opened the door for the Boeing 707 .

[NavyDiver]

Interestingly the ill fated Comet went on to become the Hawker Siddeley Nimrod (Anti Submarine) , in service with RAF until 2011 , but never again in civil service.

The failure of the Comet opened the door for the Boeing 707 .

Amazing trivia thanks. Worked with Nimrods in my Anti Sub days. very cool kit. [thumbsupbig]

PS we (Australia ) used P-3 orion not nimrods. Happily played with during exercises somewhere blue and far away [biggrin]

[Barraman]

"Interestingly the ill fated Comet went on to become the Hawker Siddeley Nimrod (Anti Submarine) , in service with RAF until 2011 , but never again in civil service."

Not so!

The disasters occurred to Comet 1s in 1954.

The Comet 4 first flew in 1958 and enjoyed a short but successful life in service with a number of airlines - most notable being East African Airlines. An old instructor of mine flew Comet 4s for EAA - he thought they were an excellent aircraft. 76 Comet 4s were built - the last flew in 1997.

Alas the damage was done by the earlier losses and the B707 went on to dominate the international skies.

The Nimrod was based on the Comet 4.

[Homestar]

One down the farm would be cool - converted to a not so tiny house. 😁

Maybe if they fly one around the place long enough, they’ll crash land one there....

[DeanoH]

You should never use software to hide a hardware problem.

I think a better description would be to 'overcome' a hardware problem. This is standard procedure in many military aircraft which would be un-flyable without it.

Deano :)

[djam1]

I will ask one of the callers from Delhi who tell me I have a problem with my computer. Maybe they can come up with a fix

[Pedro_The_Swift]

One down the farm would be cool - converted to a not so tiny house. 😁

Maybe if they fly one around the place long enough, they’ll crash land one there....

instant dam! [bigrolf]

[V8Ian]

instant dam! [bigrolf]
Of Jet A. [biggrin]

[JDNSW]

Amazing trivia thanks. Worked with Nimrods in my Anti Sub days. very cool kit. [thumbsupbig]

PS we (Australia ) used P-3 orion not nimrods. Happily played with during exercises somewhere blue and far away [biggrin]

And, few today remember that the Orion is a development of the Lockheed L-188 Electra. And what does Wikipedia have to say about the Electra?

" Initial sales were good, but after two fatal crashes that led to expensive modifications to fix a design defect, no more were ordered."

They had an unfortunate "whirl mode resonance" that led to the wings falling off.

Extensive airframe modifications led to their being quite successful, but not in their primary market in the US. However, with communications nowhere as good as today, the Australian travelling public had not heard of the crashes, and the Electra was used extensively by Australian and New Zealand's international and domestic airlines (Qantas, TAA, Ansett, TEAL etc), giving good service until replaced by jets from about 1970.

Given both the Comet/Nimrod and Electra/Orion history, the future of the 737MAX seems quite clear!

[Roverlord off road spares]

Convert them to Freighters , fire bombers , paying passengers wont fly in them, people do have short memories but I think the 737MAX / NG / 800 or whatever they want to call them is forever tarnished . I know I'd rather walk.

if they are too unsafe then what pilot is going to risk their life to fly them as a freighter or fire bomber?

[superquag]

Correct me if I'm rrong, but part of the problem was Boeing being... too 'Commercially Reactive', to the consequences of what they did with the original design, to tweak and improve...without starting over.

When they upgraded the engines with bigger/better/more economical/whiter-than-white ones, they had to re-position them as the bigger mouths were now too close to the ground. I think they flattened the bottom of the intake to get it up a bit (?) Re-designing the landing gear was a co$t too far!

(Software Engineers / IT Support will see where this is going...)

Whatever, the overall effects of the fiddles was to alter it's handling, most notably at higher angles of attack (nose-up) so much so that it 'wanted' to pitch itself UP even more than expected.... Not welcome when one thinks about aerodynamics at low(er) speeds and only Blue filling the windscreen...and the Brown stuff not far away.

Bottom line was, the differences in controls 'feel' and low/slow/nose-up flight behaviour made it a "new" airplane, and thus there would be a training cost when stepping out of one 737...into the New Improved 737.

Boeing already had a version of MCAS floating around their Parts-Bins, so someone thought to adapt it to the 737, artificially making it 'feel' and react like the previous model(s). Voila! airplane 'feels'the same and no expen$ive cross-over training required.

The e idea was to work in the background and not call attention to itself, - thus, "...did the front seat pass.. er, 'Pilots' really need to know the details ?"

IF MCAS had been restricted in how much 'nose-down' trim it could roll in, AND perhaps only ONE attempt before warning the drivers that things were going pear-shaped, Boeing may have gotten away with it.

Or replace the MCAS Clever Bits with a spoken command to 'Get your nose down NOW!'. With so many mobile phones giving (female) voice instructions...compliance would be guaranteed ! [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

Yes, turn some into Water-Bombers for the Global Warming Fire Seasons, - adding tanks etc (swapping fuel capacity for water?) will change their characteristics and mission profile enough to mandate special training... and an excuse get rid of MCA$ at the same time...

[bob10]

There were more problems with Boeing than met the eye.

Boeing ex-manager warned of a 'factory in chaos' (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/other/boeing-ex-manager-warned-of-a-factory-in-chaos/vi-AAK277Z)

[JDNSW]

if they are too unsafe then what pilot is going to risk their life to fly them as a freighter or fire bomber?

If they ever get recertified, they will be as safe as any other airliner - but that will still not convince passengers to fly in them or airlines to buy them.

But as this saga continues, I am beginning to have doubts whether they will ever be recertified without major modifications. Even as they sit, these planes have a substantial value - each has two zero hours engines of the latest type (sell to Airbus?), and the airframe can certainly be used as the basis for a new variant, or even to build more NGs by fitting different engines and relatively small modifications. (whether passengers would want to fly in them may be another matter!

[p38arover]

the Electra was used extensively by Australian and New Zealand's international and domestic airlines (Qantas, TAA, Ansett, TEAL etc), giving good service until replaced by jets from about 1970.

In March 1970** (honeymoon), my wife an I flew in one from Melbourne to Tassie (up north as we had to collect our car from the ferry terminal). We were seated in the rear in seating like that of a suburban railway carriage rear compartment, ie., facing the other passengers.

156558

** Edited: my wife says we got married in 1970 - I bought the Hillman Hunter in 1971. [biggrin]

[superquag]

There were more problems with Boeing than met the eye.

Boeing ex-manager warned of a 'factory in chaos' (https://www.msn.com/en-ie/news/other/boeing-ex-manager-warned-of-a-factory-in-chaos/vi-AAK277Z)

Like it or not, the Captain(s) of the Ship - boat, plane train or corporation, are the ones who set the standards and tone of that environment. And they bear the responsibility and consequences, criminal or creditable.
- Even the driver of a car, can be held accountable for the continued behaviour of his/her passengers - when said pax harm other people etc.

Like all shrt-sighted money-grubbers, the Manager alluded to in the video link lost $quillions more on earnings than 'fixing' Production Line problems could ever have cost.
Do we know a politician or three with a similar mindset ?

[RANDLOVER]

If they ever get recertified, they will be as safe as any other airliner - but that will still not convince passengers to fly in them or airlines to buy them.

But as this saga continues, I am beginning to have doubts whether they will ever be recertified without major modifications. Even as they sit, these planes have a substantial value - each has two zero hours engines of the latest type (sell to Airbus?), and the airframe can certainly be used as the basis for a new variant, or even to build more NGs by fitting different engines and relatively small modifications. (whether passengers would want to fly in them may be another matter!


They will pro'ly just fit them with new engines and/or controls and then rename them as 737 Ultras or some such and start selling them again.

[superquag]

if they are too unsafe then what pilot is going to risk their life to fly them as a freighter or fire bomber?

Older pilots...(I would...) In the US, there's a significant % of crop-dusters who are beyond Retiring Age...

Once the cause(s) of the crashes is clearly understood, a well-trained "bomber" pilot should have little difficulty in coping with it. With bigger and faster fires happening on every continent, Boeing could turn this around with excess inventory sales plus a Corporate Reputation saviour.


- Fire-fighters worldwide will benefit from the flying public's fear ! [biggrin]

Our cash-strapped / $quandering Federal Govt might even buy one...

[4bee]

Could the RAAF update their Poseidon ASW fleet by 400+? Might be a bargain, the likes we could never see again.

[insert tongue in cheek smiley here.]

P-8A Poseidon | Royal Australian Air Force (https://www.airforce.gov.au/technology/aircraft/intelligence-surveillance-and-reconnaissance/p-8a-poseidon)

[4bee]

And, few today remember that the Orion is a development of the Lockheed L-188 Electra. And what does Wikipedia have to say about the Electra?

" Initial sales were good, but after two fatal crashes that led to expensive modifications to fix a design defect, no more were ordered."

They had an unfortunate "whirl mode resonance" that led to the wings falling off.

Extensive airframe modifications led to their being quite successful, but not in their primary market in the US. However, with communications nowhere as good as today, the Australian travelling public had not heard of the crashes, and the Electra was used extensively by Australian and New Zealand's international and domestic airlines (Qantas, TAA, Ansett, TEAL etc), giving good service until replaced by jets from about 1970.

Given both the Comet/Nimrod and Electra/Orion history, the future of the 737MAX seems quite clear!



(Qantas, TAA, Ansett, TEAL etc)


As well as BCPA.

British Commonwealth Pacific Airlines (http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/BCPA%20DC6%20poster.htm)

[travelrover]

In March 1970 (honeymoon), my wife an I flew in one from Melbourne to Tassie (up north as we had to collect our car from the ferry terminal). We were seated in the rear in seating like that of a suburban railway carriage rear compartment, ie., facing the other passengers.

156558

Had a similar experience in an Air Zimbabwe Viscount in the mid 80’s. But it was the front row of seats against the forward bulkhead facing the other passengers. An interesting couple of flights for all sorts of reasons, just after independence but still fighting going on.