Puma Engine Replacement Options Cummins R2.8

[Baytown]

I’m still scoping the options for when it comes time for an engine rebuild on my 2.2 with BAS 170 tune.
I’ve 172,000 on my vehicle and just thinking of the future.

Options: LS3 with standard manual box
LS3 with full 6 speed auto
Ford 3.2 Diesel
And now, the Cummins R2.8 Crate engine.

I contacted Cummins and am pleasantly surprised at the cost of a new 2.8 crate engine delivered to Tassie.
$15,000 plus GST, of which I’m exempt.

That price is a way better option than second hand LS3/3.2 engines, and it’s very a complete offering.
The factory stock specs are very good. 160HP, 420nm.

I wonder if anyone else has done this install in Oz. Obviously, interface to the gear box, an auto box, engine mounts, comms to the gauges, air con install etc are items that need to be factored in.

Comments?

156443156444

[Robmacca]

There's a guy in the USA that installed one of those crate engines into his Disco-1. Might give u some ideas...?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW4xXxmG7qM&t=119s

[Standard]

I have a couple of questions.
What are you trying to achieve with an engine swap? Because an LS and a Cummins R2.8 are very different outcomes.
Are you planning on doing it yourself or pay a mechanic/engineering workshop to do the work?
If you want to do it for ****s and giggles, I would be the last person to stop you.
If it's to remedy issues that you have experienced or are expecting with the 2.2, what are they?

[Baytown]

Yep, I’ve seen the video series.
Theres some good info on these engines via You Tube.👍


There's a guy in the USA that installed one of those crate engines into his Disco-1. Might give u some ideas...?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW4xXxmG7qM&t=119s

[Baytown]

Yep, very aware of the differences between the Diesel options and LS3 swap outs. I’ve been looking into this for a few years.

My Defender is getting towards 200,000 kms, and I need reliability in it, as I do go to very remote areas, where a breakdown is just not a situation I want to contemplate.

Id like to get an engine that is just as capable and then some as my Puma, but is less stressed.

The work will be done by a shop, hence my enquiring if anyone is doing this at the moment, vs my having to blindly reinvent the wheel.

My 2.2 with BAS 170 tune has and is great, but a little underpowered for my heavily modified and heavy Defender. I really enjoy improving on the factory capabilities and modding my vehicle. Most of what has been done has been done by me, but an engine swap is way out of my league. I could remove an engine, but getting a new one running and set up correctly is for the professionals.

My Defender is a keeper so I want the best engine and gear box option for my specific set up that I can get, for remote touring and not being afraid to tackle the high country tracks.


I have a couple of questions.
What are you trying to achieve with an engine swap? Because an LS and a Cummins R2.8 are very different outcomes.
Are you planning on doing it yourself or pay a mechanic/engineering workshop to do the work?
If you want to do it for ****s and giggles, I would be the last person to stop you.
If it's to remedy issues that you have experienced or are expecting with the 2.2, what are they?

[DiscoMick]

I have read ads from England for a company which fits the Ford 3.2 from Rangers to Defenders, is that what you're looking for?

Ford Puma 3.2 i5 TDCi Engine Management Kit | scs-delta (https://www.scs-delta.co.uk/product-page/ford-puma-3-2-i5-tdci-engine-management-kit)

About Us | Motor & Diesel Engineering (Anglia) Limited (http://www.mdengineering.co.uk/about-us/)

[Robmacca]

Yep, very aware of the differences between the Diesel options and LS3 swap outs. I’ve been looking into this for a few years.

My Defender is getting towards 200,000 kms, and I need reliability in it, as I do go to very remote areas, where a breakdown is just not a situation I want to contemplate.



Not sure a LS3 would a suitable swap if u plan on heading into remote areas... The added fuel u would have to take would affect your vehicle's GVM I would imagine??

[SPROVER]

I have read ads from England for a company which fits the Ford 3.2 from Rangers to Defenders, is that what you're looking for?

Ford Puma 3.2 i5 TDCi Engine Management Kit | scs-delta (https://www.scs-delta.co.uk/product-page/ford-puma-3-2-i5-tdci-engine-management-kit)

About Us | Motor & Diesel Engineering (Anglia) Limited (http://www.mdengineering.co.uk/about-us/)I think there is a guy on here doing that conversion for the defender. Would be very nice to drive.

[Bigbjorn]

I think there is a guy on here doing that conversion for the defender. Would be very nice to drive.

Swapping in a Cummins is going to cost at least $20,000 if you are paying professionals to do the job. Your car is not worth that much.

Why not just trade it in on something with a lot more grunt ex factory. Something with a decent size engine to start with. Probably means you will not be driving a Land Rover as the poms have always been reluctant to put a decent size engine in just about anything.

[SPROVER]

Swapping in a Cummins is going to cost at least $20,000 if you are paying professionals to do the job. Your car is not worth that much.

Why not just trade it in on something with a lot more grunt ex factory. Something with a decent size engine to start with. Probably means you will not be driving a Land Rover as the poms have always been reluctant to put a decent size engine in just about anything.Yep I understand that... but the guy here is doing the 3.2 litre conversion. That would be a better engine.

[Standard]

Swapping in a Cummins is going to cost at least $20,000 if you are paying professionals to do the job. Your car is not worth that much.

Why not just trade it in on something with a lot more grunt ex factory. Something with a decent size engine to start with. Probably means you will not be driving a Land Rover as the poms have always been reluctant to put a decent size engine in just about anything.If a crate motor alone is $15000 the whole swap is going be a fair bit north $20000.

@Baytown have you driven a Foton Tunland? They are quite underwhelming power wise.

[MLD]

I think there is a guy on here doing that conversion for the defender. Would be very nice to drive.

Momentum 4x4 in Wauchope has done 2 3.2 conversions. Will want to go the auto route. The MT82 might not last if you are heavy or tow. Speak to CAL415 about his MT82 wows behind a 3.2 defender. He can give you real world experience.

[Baytown]

Hi Mod.
could you delete this please?
i posted in the wrong thread.
Ta.

156470

[Plutei]

Swapping in a Cummins is going to cost at least $20,000 if you are paying professionals to do the job. Your car is not worth that much.

Hahaha how would you know? You clearly haven't been keeping up with what Baytown posts; his defender seems to be more than worth it to him :)

[Tins]

I spoke to Glenn at length about this. It would appear to answer your needs. It's proven, sorta, it involves far less than the conversions you mentioned, and is affordable. He's in Sydney, but so what? Read the thread from the beginning.


3.2 Up and running!!! (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/255980-3-2-up-running-7.html)

or


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/255980-3-2-up-running-7.html

[Tins]

Probably means you will not be driving a Land Rover as the poms have always been reluctant to put a decent size engine in just about anything.

Have you heard of Bowler? But I take your point. The Poms still seem limited by their post WWII experience when it comes to cars.

[Tins]

I spoke to Glenn at length about this. It would appear to answer your needs. It's proven, sorta, it involves far less than the conversions you mentioned, and is affordable. He's in Sydney, but so what? Read the thread from the beginning.


3.2 Up and running!!! (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/255980-3-2-up-running-7.html)

or


https://www.aulro.com/afvb/90-110-130-defender-county/255980-3-2-up-running-7.html

Dunno why it did that...... This works.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJaiQ4WWx3c&feature=youtu.be

Could be the simplest option for you.

[Baytown]

Not that much to you, but. I love my Defender, have done much of the modifications myself, and am proud of it.
Its not about money. I enjoy working on and improving the vehicle and it’s a keeper.


Swapping in a Cummins is going to cost at least $20,000 if you are paying professionals to do the job. Your car is not worth that much.

Why not just trade it in on something with a lot more grunt ex factory. Something with a decent size engine to start with. Probably means you will not be driving a Land Rover as the poms have always been reluctant to put a decent size engine in just about anything.

[Bigbjorn]

Check this link,

Engines, Transmissions, Components and Upgrades | Chevrolet Performance (https://www.chevrolet.com/performance/overview)

You are spoilt for choice.

[Slunnie]

Momentum 4x4 in Wauchope has done 2 3.2 conversions. Will want to go the auto route. The MT82 might not last if you are heavy or tow. Speak to CAL415 about his MT82 wows behind a 3.2 defender. He can give you real world experience.
I didn’t think anybody could get the front propshaft to work with the 3.2’s auto due to lack of clearance with an
LT230, or is this with a different setup eg ZF 4HP24?

[MLD]

I didn’t think anybody could get the front propshaft to work with the 3.2’s auto due to lack of clearance with an
LT230, or is this with a different setup eg ZF 4HP24?

apparently Momentum have worked a way for the 6r80 and prop shaft clearance. The 6r80 is also found behind the territory TDV6 and momentum did a conversion not long ago. Set a man a challenge and he will either conqueur it or die trying. Doubt anyone has bothered with a 4hp24 behind a 3.2

[Slunnie]

apparently Momentum have worked a way for the 6r80 and prop shaft clearance. The 6r80 is also found behind the territory TDV6 and momentum did a conversion not long ago. Set a man a challenge and he will either conqueur it or die trying. Doubt anyone has bothered with a 4hp24 behind a 3.2
Ahhh, good on them! Got to love it when somebody does what cant be done.

[loanrangie]

Have you heard of Bowler? But I take your point. The Poms still seem limited by their post WWII experience when it comes to cars.Bowler don't make road vehicles so a pointless comparison.

[butundede]

I personally think if someone can package up the cummins and deliver a finished product in relation to the conversion and reliability, it would be a success here in oz. The yanks are dropping them in lots of their older vehicles, and they are seemingly a good thing.
We love our Defender (130 Td5) and 110 (4bd1t) I would sooner fork out $40k on a engine/transmission conversion than buy a new dual cab with nothing to love or enjoy about it, been there, done that!
At the end of the day, people think we’re nuts keeping the old trucks going instead of buying new, but we think the opposite. The days of running defenders into the ground are gone, with their worth, both monetary and intangible, increasing I think people will start seeing options to repower and reinvigorate their Defenders as a worthwhile exercise.
Cheers, Bob

[Bigbjorn]

I’m still scoping the options for when it comes time for an engine rebuild on my 2.2 with BAS 170 tune.
I’ve 172,000 on my vehicle and just thinking of the future.

Options: LS3 with standard manual box
LS3 with full 6 speed auto
Ford 3.2 Diesel
And now, the Cummins R2.8 Crate engine.

I contacted Cummins and am pleasantly surprised at the cost of a new 2.8 crate engine delivered to Tassie.
$15,000 plus GST, of which I’m exempt.

That price is a way better option than second hand LS3/3.2 engines, and it’s very a complete offering.
The factory stock specs are very good. 160HP, 420nm.

I wonder if anyone else has done this install in Oz. Obviously, interface to the gear box, an auto box, engine mounts, comms to the gauges, air con install etc are items that need to be factored in.

Comments?

156443156444

I have no idea what the landed cost of an LS3 in Australia would be. A LS3 crate engine in top end spec, the CT525, is quoted at US$8000 on their web site.

[Tins]

Bowler don't make road vehicles so a pointless comparison.

Err.... Conversions & Modifications | Bowler (https://www.bowlermotorsport.com/bowler-conversions/)

Fast Road Defender | Bowler (https://www.bowlermotorsport.com/bowler-conversions/fast-road-defender/)

[DiscoMick]

If you really just want a simple reliable Defender for remote travel, rather than an expensive engine transplant, wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper just to buy a Perentie?

Check out these cars: You have been blocked (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/results?q=(Service%3D%5BCarsales%5D%26(Make%3D%5BL and%20Rover%5D%26(Model%3D%5B110%5D%26Badge%3D%5BP erentie%5D)))&sort=TopDeal)

[djam1]

If you really just want a simple reliable Defender for remote travel, rather than an expensive engine transplant, wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper just to buy a Perentie?

Check out these cars: You have been blocked (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/results?q=(Service%3D%5BCarsales%5D%26(Make%3D%5BL and%20Rover%5D%26(Model%3D%5B110%5D%26Badge%3D%5BP erentie%5D)))&sort=TopDeal)

You will even end up with a real Land Rover

[Bigbjorn]

A friend who lives up near Bundaberg bought a brilliant 6x6 Perentie with camper conversion on the back for less than $30,000. It had all the bells and whistles needed for prolonged outback driving and camping. He lives on the Qld. coast for summer and spends the cool months prospecting in the WA deserts. He lives in the Perentie. It replaced a Ranger with a stuffed engine which was going to cost over $20,000 to rebuild.

As to the Cummins vs LS3 conversion. Both are going to cost about the same. I would rather have 450-500 horses from an LS3 than 161 from the little Cummins.

[grinna1965]

We have completed 4-6speed auto conversions so far and working well,we have just completed. Another 3.2 and auto for a customer ready for delivery end of January.we have also had my tdv6 with 6 speed auto running, just up to the finishing and tuning stages and it sounds awesome if i do say so myself, will send pics in a couple of weeks

[Baytown]

Hi Grinna.

I spoke with you last year re your conversion.

Its still in my list of 3 engine options and as you’ve fitted more, heading toward my preferred option.
Im just having my BP51s’ fitted today, so that is now everything short of my focusing on the engine and possible transmission swap.

Can a 3.2 crate engine be sourced at all for this conversion, or do you prefer used due to the end cost?

Thanks mate.

Ken

[wpalmo]

If you really just want a simple reliable Defender for remote travel, rather than an expensive engine transplant, wouldn't it be simpler and cheaper just to buy a Perentie?

Check out these cars: You have been blocked (https://www.carsales.com.au/cars/results?q=(Service%3D%5BCarsales%5D%26(Make%3D%5BL and%20Rover%5D%26(Model%3D%5B110%5D%26Badge%3D%5BP erentie%5D)))&sort=TopDeal)


Couldn't agree more! It amazes me how good these vehicles are when it comes to serious remote outback travel. You can pick one up for under 20K and keep your PUMA for everything else you do in it other than the serious off road remote work. It would work out cheaper in my opinion than modifying your PUMA.

No other Landrover out of the box can come close to a Perentie.

4BD1 Isuzu 3.9 litre 4 cylinder motor that can be fitted with a turbo
Fully galvanised chassis
some with PTO winches
some with long range fuel tanks
some with dual batteries
external access storage lockers
RFSV has all the options plus 4 wheel disk brakes and power steering

The best part of the Perentie story is that they were designed for Australia and built in Australia.

I haven't seen or heard of many Perentie owners wanting to swap out the Isuzu 4BD1 for another engine. Could be that they are very reliable and good for 1 000 000kms if looked after!!!!

If you really want to spend north of 20K on your PUMA why not look into the turbo 4BD1 option when wanting to replace the PUMA 2.2. My only concern is that the PUMA gearbox might not be able to manage the torque of a turbo 4BD1 but if you are prepared to change the gearbox to a compatible 5/6 speed option it would be an exceptionable reliable remote outback vehicle .

Regards Warrick.

[200defenda]

Heaps of people go on about the 4bd1 engine. Ive driven a few isuzu’s with the engine, cant really say i was very impressed. A 200/300tdi engine is better. Plenty of 200 and 300tdi engine have done huge kms with little or no issues. But i wouldnt put either in a puma, Just saying putting in a 4bd1 turbo in a puma would have disappointing results.

[Tombie]

Couldn't agree more! It amazes me how good these vehicles are when it comes to serious remote outback travel. You can pick one up for under 20K and keep your PUMA for everything else you do in it other than the serious off road remote work. It would work out cheaper in my opinion than modifying your PUMA.

No other Landrover out of the box can come close to a Perentie.

4BD1 Isuzu 3.9 litre 4 cylinder motor that can be fitted with a turbo
Fully galvanised chassis
some with PTO winches
some with long range fuel tanks
some with dual batteries
external access storage lockers
RFSV has all the options plus 4 wheel disk brakes and power steering

The best part of the Perentie story is that they were designed for Australia and built in Australia.

I haven't seen or heard of many Perentie owners wanting to swap out the Isuzu 4BD1 for another engine. Could be that they are very reliable and good for 1 000 000kms if looked after!!!!

If you really want to spend north of 20K on your PUMA why not look into the turbo 4BD1 option when wanting to replace the PUMA 2.2. My only concern is that the PUMA gearbox might not be able to manage the torque of a turbo 4BD1 but if you are prepared to change the gearbox to a compatible 5/6 speed option it would be an exceptionable reliable remote outback vehicle .

Regards Warrick.

Can you get Euro 4 compliant 4BD1s?

[wpalmo]

Yep, very aware of the differences between the Diesel options and LS3 swap outs. I’ve been looking into this for a few years.

My Defender is getting towards 200,000 kms, and I need reliability in it, as I do go to very remote areas, where a breakdown is just not a situation I want to contemplate.

Id like to get an engine that is just as capable and then some as my Puma, but is less stressed.

The work will be done by a shop, hence my enquiring if anyone is doing this at the moment, vs my having to blindly reinvent the wheel.

My 2.2 with BAS 170 tune has and is great, but a little underpowered for my heavily modified and heavy Defender. I really enjoy improving on the factory capabilities and modding my vehicle. Most of what has been done has been done by me, but an engine swap is way out of my league. I could remove an engine, but getting a new one running and set up correctly is for the professionals.

My Defender is a keeper so I want the best engine and gear box option for my specific set up that I can get, for remote touring and not being afraid to tackle the high country tracks.\


Hi 200defenda,

As you can see from the quote by Baytown who started the thread, he is concerned about the reliability of his Puma for remote travel and he has only 200,000 kms on the clock.

If you have driven a 4BD1 landrover in remote areas of Australia I would find it hard for you not to be impressed with the simplicity, reliability, fuel economy and work horse capacity these engines offer. As far as high country goes the amount of torque generated by the 4BD1 with a well set up turbo is very good and would provide more than enough power to climb all day. I have driven 200 and 300tdi engine Landrovers and while they are a good engine and a lot quieter than the 4BD1 they can not match the torque reliability and simplicity of the 4BD1.

In my humble opinion it is these qualities that make the 4BD1 powered Landrovers the best remote Australian outback travel Landrovers.

As I said Baytown could do a lot worse than buy a KLR turbo Perentie and just use that for the remote travel and high country work. Keep the Puma for the everyday stuff. Probably work out cheaper in the long run and you end up with 2 great Landrovers instead of one!

As far as Euro 4 compliance - probably best left for the latte sipping mob to pontificate over!

Regards Warrick.

[DiscoMick]

Personally, the Puma seems like a very tough and reliable engine which is well proven to avoid major problems, but each to his own.

[phin]

As far as Euro 4 compliance - probably best left for the latte sipping mob to pontificate over!




Isn't the issue that you won't get engineering approval to fit a 4BD1 to a Defender of that era because it doesn't meet emissions requirements? I don't think you can even fit a TD5 to a Puma Defender.

[LR V8]

Isn't the issue that you won't get engineering approval to fit a 4BD1 to a Defender of that era because it doesn't meet emissions requirements? I don't think you can even fit a TD5 to a Puma Defender.

But that isn't what you do.... the idea is to fit a Defender body onto a Perentie / 4BD1 chassis. If the additional seating is required then Engineering Cert would be needed for the seat belts & seating capacity change.

Cheers.

[grinna1965]

Hi Baytown
mate before you make any decisions on an engine conversion come and drive my tdv6 auto which we are in the final stages of tuning it will impress you that much the ls3 wont even be an option.This thing is so smooth responsive fuel efficient its just a hole new level.Its a good comparison to because we have a 3.2 auto hear that is now finished so we were able to do some good comparisons.I will be posting some info on a new thread soon as i get five minutes spare
cheers Grinna
Ken[/QUOTE]

[Baytown]

I’ll call you this week Glenn to discuss.
Im coming over to the mainland for a month in Feb, and hope to drop in to view and drive if able.
Good on you.

Ken




Hi Baytown
mate before you make any decisions on an engine conversion come and drive my tdv6 auto which we are in the final stages of tuning it will impress you that much the ls3 wont even be an option.This thing is so smooth responsive fuel efficient its just a hole new level.Its a good comparison to because we have a 3.2 auto hear that is now finished so we were able to do some good comparisons.I will be posting some info on a new thread soon as i get five minutes spare
cheers Grinna
Ken[/QUOTE]

[Hugh42732]

Personally, the Puma seems like a very tough and reliable engine which is well proven to avoid major problems, but each to his own.

Agree Mick that I do not understand the knockers of the 2.4 Puma, unless you stall it going uphill and roll backwards in gear...

Luckily blew my engine under warranty, not sure if I would pay to replace it with a new one knowing it is an accident away from needing replacing.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Robmacca]

Agree Mick that I do not understand the knockers of the 2.4 Puma, unless you stall it going uphill and roll backwards in gear...

Luckily blew my engine under warranty, not sure if I would pay to replace it with a new one knowing it is an accident away from needing replacing.

Cheers,

Hugh

Curious... can u please share more about what u mean? I've got the 2.4 myself and I'm keen to keep up-to-date with any potential or known problems??

[ramblingboy42]

I'm a little bit confused here.

A puma is an engine series in a defender isnt it?

are they wanting to replace a puma with an Isuzu or vice versa, or put either in a defender but calling the defender a puma?

I think the engine in my Ranger is a Puma2.2......ford product.....seems faultless in the Ranger.

fiik

[DiscoMick]

Puma is a Ford engine range, including 2.2, 2.4 and 3.2. Used in both the Ranger and Transit, and flogged unmercifully all around the world. The 2.2 and 2.4 were used in Defenders when Ford owned JLR.

[Hugh42732]

Curious... can u please share more about what u mean? I've got the 2.4 myself and I'm keen to keep up-to-date with any potential or known problems??

So I basically wrecked the top end of the engine, didn't go and see it myself as it was taken to a dealership about 5 hours away and Land Rover said given the low Km on the vehicle (just under 40 000 km) they would replace the engine.

Basically cams/followers/valves were bent/broken/had bits of metal chipped or gouged out.

Naturally as I was unhappy about the development, pushed LR pretty hard but they assured me that this wasn't a common problem, got my Defender fixed and never asked anymore questions.

Fast forward 6 or 7 years and after a dodgy mechanic or 2 had worked on my Defender resulting in it being dusted and start inquiring about a replacement motor and one supplier said obviously I was happy and hadn't destroyed an engine.

Well actually...

He claims that the tensioner on the timing chain only tensions when the engine is running the right way, which isn't a big problem in a delivery van, put it in a 4wd environment and stall the vehicle going uphill and it rolls backwards in gear the tensioner gives the chain some slack and it may jump a cog or 2.

Always been going to post here for thoughts but never have.

Cheers,

Hugh

[Tote]

I'll be interested to hear from someone who knows more than me but it sound plausible if the tensioner is hydraulic - no oil pressure means no tension on the timing chain, engine turned backwards and the timing chain jumps. Equally, it might be false and I'm just speculating......

Regards,
Tote

[inken_dave]

.....

He claims that the tensioner on the timing chain only tensions when the engine is running the right way, which isn't a big problem in a delivery van, put it in a 4wd environment and stall the vehicle going uphill and it rolls backwards in gear the tensioner gives the chain some slack and it may jump a cog or 2.

Always been going to post here for thoughts but never have.

Cheers,

Hugh

This problem is highlighted by many 4wD schools teaching that you should stop/stall the engine with key or naturally when you loose traction on a steep hill! This is a very poor technique to teach, and will possible result in the engine running backwards!