Improving transport taxes for the future

[DiscoMick]

Interesting ideas in this, I thought.

Opinion: We are at risk of killing the golden goose of our transport system
Our transport system needs fixing, but a tax on electric vehicles isn't the solution - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-24/a-proposed-new-tax-on-electric-vehicles-is-a-bad-idea/11813630)

[Tombie]

It’s certainly something that needs to be carefully considered.

[PhilipA]

Opinion: We are at risk of killing the golden goose of our transport system
Our transport system needs fixing, but a tax on electric vehicles isn't the solution - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-24/a-proposed-new-tax-on-electric-vehicles-is-a-bad-idea/11813630)
What a BS article from very left of centre.
1 EVs in Australia are coal driven and will be for many years. Ther eis no environmental benefit.
2 Sydney already has enormous congestion taxes with over $100 a week to drive into the city.
3 congestion taxes are very inequitable as they drive poorer people off the road. You only have to look at a the Harbour Bridge on any given day to see the majority of cars have a single occupant.
4Perhaps the decline in fuel tax has been because of more efficient cars and I would guess the fleet average for Australia is only a fraction of what it was.
The road pricing idea has the major stumbling block of the existing taxes in Sydney and Melbourne which together would be about 40% of Australian road travel.
So what is the answer?
A road mileage charge on electric vehicles which approximates the excise paid by the average car for average kms per year. NZ already has a system for diesels.
Regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

But we want to encourage the shift to EVs to reduce emissions, so putting a road charge on them would be counter productive.
Falling fuel tax is a good thing because it means more efficient engines are being used.
Maybe government might have to get over the idea that motorists are an easy target to slug with taxes.
Personally, I would rather see the GST raised to 15% and all exemptions abolished, as NZ and some other countries have done, as this treats everyone equally and rewards those who are frugal.

[Bigbjorn]

What a BS article from very left of centre.
1 EVs in Australia are coal driven and will be for many years. Ther eis no environmental benefit.
2 Sydney already has enormous congestion taxes with over $100 a week to drive into the city.
3 congestion taxes are very inequitable as they drive poorer people off the road. You only have to look at a the Harbour Bridge on any given day to see the majority of cars have a single occupant.
4Perhaps the decline in fuel tax has been because of more efficient cars and I would guess the fleet average for Australia is only a fraction of what it was.
The road pricing idea has the major stumbling block of the existing taxes in Sydney and Melbourne which together would be about 40% of Australian road travel.
So what is the answer?
A road mileage charge on electric vehicles which approximates the excise paid by the average car for average kms per year. NZ already has a system for diesels.
Regards PhilipA

Sydney does not have "congestion taxes". It has toll roads, bridges, and tunnels. If you don't use them you don't have to pay. The only toll I pay when in Sydney is the Harbour Bridge. It being more convenient to use rather than going all the way around through Gladesville. I don't pay tolls in Brisbane either. I take the position that roads etc are built from the common purse for the free use of all citizens. Our caring governments then sold "tolling rights" to private sector companies.

CBD peak hour congestion can be solved by a stroke of the legislative pen and a display of political will. Ban private vehicles from the central traffic areas. Problem solvered, Boss.

[PhilipA]

Sydney does not have "congestion taxes". It has toll roads, bridges, and tunnels.

Ha Ha
Ever tried to take the non tolled roads especially in peak hour?
The actions that the Government took to restrict alternate routes to support the toll roads makes them a de facto congestion tax.
You know , on a Sunday you can maybe take alternate roads if you have plenty of time, but don't try it on Saturday morning.
They just have another name.
But I do agree that congestion taxes would maybe help, as would staggering start and finish times. When I worked in the CBD , I started at 8AM and finished at 4PM, which meant I could at least avoid the worst in the Afternoon , but probably not any more.
Regards PhilipA

[vnx205]

... ... When I worked in the CBD , I started at 8AM and finished at 4PM, which meant I could at least avoid the worst in the Afternoon , but probably not any more.
Regards PhilipA

I preferred your post before you edited your typo.

I assumed that finishing at $PM meant that you stopped work as soon as you got paid. :D

[Homestar]

What a BS article from very left of centre.
1 EVs in Australia are coal driven and will be for many years. Ther eis no environmental benefit.
2 Sydney already has enormous congestion taxes with over $100 a week to drive into the city.
3 congestion taxes are very inequitable as they drive poorer people off the road. You only have to look at a the Harbour Bridge on any given day to see the majority of cars have a single occupant.
4Perhaps the decline in fuel tax has been because of more efficient cars and I would guess the fleet average for Australia is only a fraction of what it was.
The road pricing idea has the major stumbling block of the existing taxes in Sydney and Melbourne which together would be about 40% of Australian road travel.
So what is the answer?
A road mileage charge on electric vehicles which approximates the excise paid by the average car for average kms per year. NZ already has a system for diesels.
Regards PhilipA

There is a definite and proven environmental benefit to EV's even running them off coal fired power stations. A large power station is far more efficient and converts more of the fossil fuel to power, so emissions are lower from a 'coal fired' EV than any modern petrol or diesel engine- between 20 and 40% depending on which reports you look at, but all of them - independent or not, come to the same conclusion. It also reduces the build up of the emissions in the city areas where pollution is the worst - and most people just don't seem to want to admit that these higher concentrations of pollution really do kill more people than in areas of lower pollution. Is it perfect? - no, not by a long stretch, but it is a start and we do need to start somewhere.

There's a lot more to be done before the uptake of EV's is of any real significance though IMO - they are just too bloody expensive at the moment in every way, shape and form, so taxing them per KM is the least of their problems. I do think they do need to pay their way though, but not sure how and how much - this is not a simple fix by any means.

[scarry]

But we want to encourage the shift to EVs to reduce emissions, so putting a road charge on them would be counter productive.
Falling fuel tax is a good thing because it means more efficient engines are being used.
Maybe government might have to get over the idea that motorists are an easy target to slug with taxes.
Personally, I would rather see the GST raised to 15% and all exemptions abolished, as NZ and some other countries have done, as this treats everyone equally and rewards those who are frugal.

Correct,but unfortunately its all about job security for politicians.....[bigsad]

And then who would they tax instead of motorists?

In fact its light commercial vehicles that get slugged more than private motorists,which is unfair to start with.Tolls,rego,etc.
But i suppose most wouldn't pay the GST component of the fees or fuel.

[DiscoMick]

The Guardian view on car culture: change is coming

The Guardian view on car culture: change is coming | Editorial | Opinion | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/26/the-guardian-view-on-car-culture-change-is-coming?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Arapiles]

CBD peak hour congestion can be solved by a stroke of the legislative pen and a display of political will. Ban private vehicles from the central traffic areas. Problem solvered, Boss.

That might work in Tokyo - if they had a congestion problem with private cars, which they don’t - but in the absence of a widespread and efficient public transport system in Sydney or Melbourne, all that would do is punish people who can’t afford to live close to the CBD and cut off a lot of people from access to the best jobs. It would be utterly regressive and simply exacerbate the inequalities building in our society.

[Bigbjorn]

That might work in Tokyo - if they had a congestion problem with private cars, which they don’t - but in the absence of a widespread and efficient public transport system in Sydney or Melbourne, all that would do is punish people who can’t afford to live close to the CBD and cut off a lot of people from access to the best jobs. It would be utterly regressive and simply exacerbate the inequalities building in our society.

Rubbish. It would force people who currently drive into and park in the CBD to drive to and park at a transit centre further out and catch public transport in to the CBD. It might even convince some Luddites that their offices can nowadays in the electronic age be anywhere. Why does a large insurance or financial company need to be in the CBD? It can be headquartered in Dubbo or Darwin or Wooriyallock. Other than ministerial offices, public service departments can be set up in country towns.

[RANDLOVER]

…………………... Why does a large insurance or financial company need to be in the CBD? It can be headquartered in Dubbo or Darwin or Wooriyallock. Other than ministerial offices, public service departments can be set up in country towns.

I think you've answered your own question as CBD= Central Business District. There is an experiment in geopolitical science IIRC, take a flat featureless piece of land, so no rivers, ports, etc and start putting dots equidistant apart to represent settlements, villages, towns etc and it soon becomes apparent that a hexagonal pattern starts to form so even without natural advantages certain places become centres due to distance.

[Arapiles]

Rubbish. It would force people who currently drive into and park in the CBD to drive to and park at a transit centre further out and catch public transport in to the CBD. It might even convince some Luddites that their offices can nowadays in the electronic age be anywhere. Why does a large insurance or financial company need to be in the CBD? It can be headquartered in Dubbo or Darwin or Wooriyallock. Other than ministerial offices, public service departments can be set up in country towns.

So, you’d force people into a multi-mode trip - adding cost, complexity and inconvenience - and add traffic and parking pressure in areas just outside your exclusion zone. Note too that you’re talking about forcing people to do something to make the roads clearer for - who, exactly? Commercial operators? People who can afford to pay the congestion tax? People would still be driving too, so it’s not like there’s a huge environmental benefit to it.

I lived in London and I was never convinced that the congestion zone added anything other than traffic to the routes around it.

[Homestar]

Rubbish. It would force people who currently drive into and park in the CBD to drive to and park at a transit centre further out and catch public transport in to the CBD. It might even convince some Luddites that their offices can nowadays in the electronic age be anywhere. Why does a large insurance or financial company need to be in the CBD? It can be headquartered in Dubbo or Darwin or Wooriyallock. Other than ministerial offices, public service departments can be set up in country towns.

In Melbourne there would need to be a heap of work extra to what is happening already to allow this to happen - the Trains and Trams are at capacity - actually beyond capacity - during peak hours already. Trains regulaly skip stops now during peaks as they are full heading in, and try getting on ANY tram heading into the City in the morning - unless you're at the start of the line, forget it and despite the works happening on the Metro Rail Tunnel and signalling upgrades, this is at best going to allow the system to gain enough extra capacity to keep up with current organic growth - if you forced the drivers onto the trains at the moment, or any time in the foreseeable future, the whole system would grind to a halt - hardly efficient (or vote winning.)

One of the things needed to help fix this and allow these sort of initiatives is for businesses to have more flexible start and finish times for their employees. I get that retail has to be open from A to B, but almost all offices could have early starters and late finishers to stagger the peak hour loads - which is where all the issues are.

More than just roads, rail and infrastructure planning is needed to fix this.

[DiscoMick]

Apart from London, another example is Singapore, which has had a charge for driving into the CBD for at least two decades, very successfully. Very smart people they are in Singapore.
It might boost the growth of regional hubs, which is already happening, for example at North Sydney, Parramatta and other places in Sydney, or in Brisbane at Garden City and other locations, including the Gold and Sunshine Coasts. For example, Youi Insurance is based at Sippy Downs on the Sunshine Coast.
Reducing congestion on public transport doesn't always mean more trains and buses, it can mean giving people reasons to change their transport habits.
If fast rail is built to connect the regional centres to the CBD then why would people drive? We rarely drive into the Brisbane CBD now. Train or bus are the way to go.

[Tombie]

I’d rather shoot myself in the face than use public transport.

[scarry]

Apart from London, another example is Singapore, which has had a charge for driving into the CBD for at least two decades, very successfully. Very smart people they are in Singapore.
It might boost the growth of regional hubs, which is already happening, for example at North Sydney, Parramatta and other places in Sydney, or in Brisbane at Garden City and other locations, including the Gold and Sunshine Coasts. For example, Youi Insurance is based at Sippy Downs on the Sunshine Coast.
Reducing congestion on public transport doesn't always mean more trains and buses, it can mean giving people reasons to change their transport habits.
If fast rail is built to connect the regional centres to the CBD then why would people drive? We rarely drive into the Brisbane CBD now. Train or bus are the way to go.

Boosting growth in regional hubs sounds like a great idea,but does it really work?

Have you seen the huge number of people that drive from the Sunshine and Gold Coast to Brisbane each day for work?

The roads out of places like Springfield are also clogged each morning with commuters leaving the area.Yet it is supposed to be one of these 'regional hubs'

Yarrabilba is another stuff up,virtually no public transport at all.Yet the politicians beat their chests saying there are going to be 10 000 homes in the area?Great.The main road to the area is single lane each way.

What we need is a fast and efficient public transport system,that is the bottom line.One doesn't exist anywhere in Brisbane.

[Bigbjorn]

[QUOTE=DiscoMick;2962474] For example, Youi Insurance is based at Sippy Downs on the Sunshine Coast.

When I went to lodge a claim last year I found out that the insurer that has my household and motor insurance does not publish an address in White Pages. I 'phoned the teleservice centre and was told that there is no office for clients to come to. All claims are done on-line or by telephone. So their offices can be anywhere. No need for a 50 story cubicle farm in the city centre. In Melbourne your offices could be north of Thomastown, west of Geelong, or out at Moe. No peak hour travel. Sydney Water Board moved 2000+ staff from Pitt St. to Parramatta. Many were right royally displeased but many liked the change. Depends on where they lived. Anyone who lived west of Burwood were delighted. Those from the east and north were not as this relocation meant two trips each way not one. Most corporations could move out as the city offices are just admin centres with no customer contact. NSW public service moved some departments to country towns and found that most staff who were not locked into that particular govt. work by their qualifications started applying for jobs back in Sydney rather than stay in Orange or Armidale or similar.

[Homestar]

I’d rather shoot myself in the face than use public transport.

You and me both mate. [bigrolf]

[DiscoMick]

Nah, don't be old-fashioned, public transport can be great if it is properly designed and funded.
The reason public transport is so poor in certain areas is that certain governments have refused to properly fund it and would rather build roads. Very short-sighted thinking, I reckon.
Australia should be perfect for public transport. It is large, flat and has populations concentrated into cities which could be at each end of each high speed rail link. If we had more forward thinking governments we would already have high speed rail from Cairns to Melbourne. It's a national failure that we don't.

[Homestar]

Has nothing to do with how well designed or funded it is - more about the people that use it... [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

Has nothing to do with how well designed or funded it is - more about the people that use it... [bigwhistle]Or don't use it.


Funding makes a huge difference. Brisbane's Cross-River Rail could have been finished by now if the federal government had put in its share of the funding, but instead it put it's money into roads.

[trout1105]

Or don't use it.


Funding makes a huge difference. Brisbane's Cross-River Rail could have been finished by now if the federal government had put in its share of the funding, but instead it put it's money into roads.

Maybe IF the State or local government paid for these LOCAL infrastructure projects themselves instead of relying on the rest of Australia to pay for them they would happen But God forbid making the locals pay via State taxation or via their rates.
It is FAR easier to blame the federal government than it is to blame the inadequacy and even in some cases corruption of the State government or Councils that are responsible for these projects [bigwhistle]

[Homestar]

Or don't use it.


Funding makes a huge difference. Brisbane's Cross-River Rail could have been finished by now if the federal government had put in its share of the funding, but instead it put it's money into roads.

Funding has nothing to do with who would and wouldn’t use it or why I don’t.

[scarry]

Or don't use it.


Funding makes a huge difference. Brisbane's Cross-River Rail could have been finished by now if the federal government had put in its share of the funding, but instead it put it's money into roads.

And the roads are still probably at least 5 to 8 yrs behind where they should be.

And not much is being done about it.
Same with the public transport system,it’s a hopeless mess.

In the years gone by,think the Jo,Hinze days,they were ten to twenty years ahead,at least.

In that era people asked why would you build the M1 with 4 lanes each way?
Lucky they did.

The only reason there is no money to sort out these issues is miss management from successive governments,and no forward planning.

They love to beat their chests and say everyone is coming to Qld,we have all this fantastic growth.

But what they forget to say is there is no infrastructure to support the growth.

The traffic congestion in the south east area of Qld is causing massive costs to business,and flows onto the public,but no one seems to really care.
Virtually nothing is being done to sort it out,whether it is road or public transport upgrades.