Sadly, 176 people have died in air crash in Iran

[Tins]

Reports differ as to the number.

YouTube (https://youtu.be/RUwF2WEpw5A)
Three Britons among 176 killed as plane crashes after take off in Tehran | World News | Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/airliner-with-180-people-on-board-crashes-after-taking-off-from-tehran-international-airport-11903445)

[goingbush]

waiting for conspiracy theorists,

Jeez did not realise Qantas flew over Iran & Iraq on its London - Perth route , Wonder if the punters know ? ... do they show inflight maps ??

[Slunnie]

Its interesting that Boeing wont be given the black box.

[goingbush]

Its interesting that Boeing wont be given the black box.

I can understand Iran not wanting to send the Black box to Boeing (unless it contained a Semtex surprise) but I thought being a Ukraine Airline there would be no issue, especially since Zelensky and Captain Chaos are buddies.

[NavyDiver]

sad for all

According to Ukraine's Foreign Minister, on the plane there were:


82 Iranians
11 Ukrainians
63 Canadians
10 Swedes
Four Afghans
Three Germans
Three British people

[Tins]

It's important that we realise that this has nothing to do with the 737 MAX issue, it has nothing to do with the current US Iran conflict ( We hope ), it appears to be a malfunction..... Not sure that works, but let's give it a go.

The aircraft was operated by a Ukranian company.

Sad for all involved.

[JDNSW]

More information on the news this morning. It was a near new 737-800 (not MAX), and the wording is beginning to suggest that it may not have been an accident - Iran has withdrawn a statement that there was no suggestion of terrorism.

I wonder if it could have been a trigger happy air defence unit expecting US reprisals for the missiles launched only hours earlier?

[4bee]

Oh John, you are a cynic.[smilebigeye]

Has happened before though.

[Johndoe]

Where there is smoke there is fire.

[Hugh Jars]

Getting the DFDR to the manufacturer would have little bearing on the outcome. Most investigative authorities have systems to access, retrieve and decode the data.

Sort of like the car manufacturer insisting only they know how to service your car, when we know better...

[JDNSW]

Oh John, you are a cynic.[smilebigeye]

Has happened before though.

Most notably, in Ukraine, the owners of the plane!

[Hugh Jars]

The latest claim is an engine fire. These seldom bring down a jet aircraft if handled correctly. I’m in the sim doing my 6-monthly check, and ironically that’s one scenario we had.

I’m more suspicious about the sudden and complete loss of comms airborne. Not saying it’s the cause, but a sudden and complete loss like that smells of something very quick and very destructive. Like an explosive device...

[goingbush]

The latest claim is an engine fire. These seldom bring down a jet aircraft if handled correctly. I’m in the sim doing my 6-monthly check, and ironically that’s one scenario we had.

I’m more suspicious about the sudden and complete loss of comms airborne. Not saying it’s the cause, but a sudden and complete loss like that smells of something very quick and very destructive. Like an explosive device...

which would explain why they don't want NTSB to get the BlackBox .

[Hugh Jars]

Politics and conspiracies aside, the only way the NTSB might become involved is :
1. It’s an ‘N’ registered aircraft;
2. It was any state’s registered aircraft that crashed in the US or its territories ;
3. The safety bureau of the country in which the aircraft crashed requested expertise that it didn’t have itself, such as the capability to decode the DFDR.

[4bee]

Most notably, in Ukraine, the owners of the plane!


I seem to recall the US Navy brought one down somewhere, the computers thinking it was an incoming missile.

I stand to be corrected though.


Edit Iran Air Flight 655 - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655)

[JDNSW]

yes. From memory, an Iranian plane over the Persian Gulf. Fairly soon admitted to from memory.

[Barraman]

Looks increasingly like an "accidental" shoot-down by Iranian defense system!

[4bee]

Really? Haven't seen that anywhere yet.

The Trigger Puller/Squeezer will be for the high jump or the long drop, whichever is in use there.



EDIT. http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/iran-plane-737-crash-in-tehran-was-it-shot-down.html

Maybe they thought it was another Drone?
(http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/01/iran-plane-737-crash-in-tehran-was-it-shot-down.html)

[Tins]

Oh John, you are a cynic.[smilebigeye]

Has happened before though.

Coincidentally, in The Ukraine last time. MH17.

[Tins]

yes. From memory, an Iranian plane over the Persian Gulf. Fairly soon admitted to from memory.

And KAL007 in 1983, although the term 'accidental' can't be applied to that one.

[JDNSW]

This sort of thing does happen. I am reminded of my b-i-l's account in 1942 when he was manning an anti-aircraft position just outside Port Moresby, when the first US fighter aircraft arrived. Up to then everything in the air was Jap, and dropping bombs on them. This next lot did not dodge, so were easier to hit.

All hushed up under wartime security, of course.

[Pickles2]

Looks increasingly like an "accidental" shoot-down by Iranian defense system!
Yes, not confirmed as yet, and seeing the news footage of the "remains", it's hard to comprehend how any definite conclusion could be made from them, but conclusions do get made don't they, and interesting to note, the footage spent some time looking at suspicious "holes" in the remains of the plane's fuselage, similar to those seen in the Ukranian disaster.
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

Justin Trudeau said intelligence confirmed a shoot down was one possible explanation. Iranians say a mechanical fault most likely as the plane was turning back towards the airport. Puzzling no comms recorded to the air traffic control. Video seems to show a fireball before it crashed.
It's good the Iranians are letting the Ukranians send in experienced investigators. I'm not surprised they don't want the Americans involved. Why would they? They would assume Trump would distort the evidence to blame them.
Very sad.

[Pickles2]

Justin Trudeau said intelligence confirmed a shoot down was one possible explanation. Iranians say a mechanical fault most likely as the plane was turning back towards the airport. Puzzling no comms recorded to the air traffic control. Video seems to show a fireball before it crashed.
It's good the Iranians are letting the Ukranians send in experienced investigators. I'm not surprised they don't want the Americans involved. Why would they? They would assume Trump would distort the evidence to blame them.
Very sad.
There you go with your biased "Political Nonsense" again.
It's nothing to do with "my mate Donald", no Americans on the plane, so why would He be involved....if anything I think the Canadians would be entitled to be involved in any subsequent investigation.
Pickles.

[goingbush]

Lets face facts,
Accident or no accident, the Aircraft would not have been shot down if Trump had not assassinated General Soleimani .

[DiscoMick]

Certainly true the assassination and Iran's moderated response caused the Iranians to be very jumpy and maybe someone over-reacted to Trump's provocative behaviour.

Tehran crash: plane downed by Iranian missile, western officials believe

Tehran crash: plane downed by Iranian missile, western officials believe | World news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/09/tehran-crash-plane-downed-by-iranian-missile-western-officials-believe?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[PhilipA]

waiting for conspiracy theorists,

Quack quack quack.
Photos of warheads, video of misslle launch.
Hmmm
Regards PhilipA
Sometimes it is wise to wait a while before commenting.

[p38arover]

What I don't understand from photos I've seen of the alleged remnants of the nose of the missile is why it just seems to have been placed where it is. There's no disturbed earth that I'd expect to see from something hitting the ground at speed.

Eliot Higgins on Twitter: "Second image (right) of Tor anti-aircraft missile debris, supposedly from near the #PS752 crash site. Still unverified, and still going to be very hard to geolocate it based on what's visible in the image. h/t @Liberalist_30… https://t.co/1EKijopLbU" (https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1215227238595121152/photo/1)

[4bee]

Justin Trudeau said intelligence confirmed a shoot down was one possible explanation. Iranians say a mechanical fault most likely as the plane was turning back towards the airport. Puzzling no comms recorded to the air traffic control. Video seems to show a fireball before it crashed.
It's good the Iranians are letting the Ukranians send in experienced investigators. I'm not surprised they don't want the Americans involved. Why would they? They would assume Trump would distort the evidence to blame them.
Very sad.

Nothing gets past my mate Justy does it?[smilebigeye]

I informed the world this was the case yesterday & Blind Freddy could see that as well.[tonguewink]

You lot also knew they were lying sods & it wouldn't look too good for them if they had stuffed up after all the hellfire & damnation talk they had spouted.

Will they ever admit it? Who knows?[bigsad]

Now onto far more important stuff. Who wants to discuss Meghan & Dopey easily led?

No-one? There is a surprise. I think most of us all saw that coming.

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/Y0S1RMqaam0

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/H5aefcpypM0

Seems like YouTube don't like that one. Typical. Let's try this one.


https://youtu.be/H5aefcpypM0

[DiscoMick]

What I don't understand from photos I've seen of the alleged remnants of the nose of the missile is why it just seems to have been placed where it is. There's no disturbed earth that I'd expect to see from something hitting the ground at speed.

Eliot Higgins on Twitter: "Second image (right) of Tor anti-aircraft missile debris, supposedly from near the #PS752 crash site. Still unverified, and still going to be very hard to geolocate it based on what's visible in the image. h/t @Liberalist_30… https://t.co/1EKijopLbU" (https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1215227238595121152/photo/1)Yes, the photos I saw looked a bit staged. Maybe not. Hard to know.

[sashadidi]

Lets face facts,
Accident or no accident, the Aircraft would not have been shot down if Trump had not assassinated General Soleimani .
No fan of trump at all but really? what about proper command and control ?iofiraian airspace with their radar systemsf it was a US attack it wouldnt have taken off from tehran airport ....it would gsve been incoming and seen by any decent radar system and monitored and dealt with before it got that far inside their terrority.

[goingbush]

No fan of trump at all but really? what about proper command and control ?iofiraian airspace with their radar systemsf it was a US attack it wouldnt have taken off from tehran airport ....it would gsve been incoming and seen by any decent radar system and monitored and dealt with before it got that far inside their terrority.

Up until that crash Qantas was flying through Iran on its Perth - London route , could just as easily been a Qantas flight that was shot down .

[DiscoMick]

I wonder how the missile operator decided that a plane which was taking off from the airport was actually attacking.

[JDNSW]

From discussions on line, these systems have an auto mode - "fire on contact". This may have been switched on due to poor training or carelessness.

I note that all the news services outside Iran now seem to regard the "five eyes" intelligence explanation as more likely than Iran's "technical fault". It is difficult to think of a technical fault that would cause immediate loss of all communications. The only explanations would seem to be either an on-board explosion or a missile. Note that an on board explosion could conceivably have been inappropriate cargo rather than a bomb, but this seems only marginally more likely than a technical fault.

[4bee]

https://youtu.be/Y0S1RMqaam0


Can't help wondering about that point of impact.

Bloke says "See ya later Darls" (in Iranian of course) & goes off with his hoe, basket & watering can to tidy up his little veggie patch. All of a sudden he gets flattened by the nose cone of stricken 737 (assuming it came down nose first which it appears it may have done) No spuds for Darls that night nor ever after Gunga Din.

I mean how arsey can one get?

[Hugh Jars]

From discussions on line, these systems have an auto mode - "fire on contact". This may have been switched on due to poor training or carelessness.

I note that all the news services outside Iran now seem to regard the "five eyes" intelligence explanation as more likely than Iran's "technical fault". It is difficult to think of a technical fault that would cause immediate loss of all communications. The only explanations would seem to be either an on-board explosion or a missile. Note that an on board explosion could conceivably have been inappropriate cargo rather than a bomb, but this seems only marginally more likely than a technical fault.

The third option, John, is a sudden and catastrophic breakup (structural failure) of the aircraft. That's extremely unlikely (on a B737, at least). They are literally built like tanks. In any instance a sudden breakup could only be the result of an explosion.

[goingbush]

Heres a conspiracy theory, has anyone confirmed the pieces on the ground are actually 737-NG parts, that thing on the ground in the YouTube clip with the Ukranian logo is presumably the Vertical Stabiliser, it has detail differences to 737-800 / NG VS images on google . I wonder if Iran hijaked the aircraft & disabled the black box / comms / transponder & had the crash site prepared earlier ??

[Johndoe]

Give it a couple more days, a bit more bull**** and people will believe it was an accident.

Whole thing was staged. The bombs with no payloads in them killing 0 and this plane crash.

[Pickles2]

Yes, not confirmed as yet, and seeing the news footage of the "remains", it's hard to comprehend how any definite conclusion could be made from them, but conclusions do get made don't they, and interesting to note, the footage spent some time looking at suspicious "holes" in the remains of the plane's fuselage, similar to those seen in the Ukranian disaster.
Pickles.
It's looking increasingly likely to be what I suggested.
But, apart from that, what I find increasingly distasteful, is the emphasis of "excusing" & "downgrading" , and quietening the incident, at the expense of any mention of the heartbreak & loss suffered by all of those affected by the death of all of the 176 innocent human beings on board.
Pickles.

[Tins]

Lets face facts,
Accident or no accident, the Aircraft would not have been shot down if Trump had not assassinated General Soleimani .

I assume from this that you are also not ok with Obama assassinating Bin Laden? Or is your comment politically motivated? Might be better posted in CA

It's fascinating to me how quickly people jump to blame Trump for EVERYTHING. It doesn't matter what.

[JDNSW]

The third option, John, is a sudden and catastrophic breakup (structural failure) of the aircraft. That's extremely unlikely (on a B737, at least). They are literally built like tanks. In any instance a sudden breakup could only be the result of an explosion.

Yes, so unlikely that I had not even considered it. There have been incidents of airliners suddenly breaking up in flight without any explosion - Comet and Electra come to mind, but these were new types only just entering service, not a tried and tested type. Also a few cases where the airframe is subject to extreme stress such as by gross overspeeding or in extreme weather, but none I can think of in normal weather during an apparently normal departure.

The other possibility, of course, is a midair collision, but there has been no suggestion of another aircraft being involved.

And several cases that come to mind of major structural failure that did not result in immediate loss of communications - e.g Aloha 243, Japan Airlines 123 and UAL 811.

[4bee]

Just what you need on a Crash site... Bulldozers. Not.


There was me thinking the best way of investigating a crash was leave well alone until given the ok to clean up. How naive am I?

Instead, there appeared to be all sorts walking all over the site & disturbing the evidence & taking bits away.

Suspicious? Moi?

[sashadidi]

film from site, appears to have been cleared very quickly
https://mobile.twitter.com/RuptlyVU/status/1215655709603442688

[DiscoMick]

I read the aircraft was only 3 years old, was said to be the best in the airline's fleet and had only been serviced two days previously, so you would think that makes mechanical failure unlikely.
Tragic, just tragic.

[bob10]

It's official. A missile shot it down.



Iranian Missile Accidentally Brought Down Ukrainian Jet, Officials Say - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/world/middleeast/iran-plane-crash-ukraine.html?auth=login-email&campaign_id=60&instance_id=0&login=email&regi_id=84534669&segment_id=20183&user_id=38b653f59d8a788d2b8029d349fb05f1)

and from Ukraine.

Ukrainian flight crew tried to turn back before crash: authorities | News | DW | 09.01.2020 (https://www.dw.com/en/ukrainian-flight-crew-tried-to-turn-back-before-crash-authorities/a-51936419'maca=en-newsletter_en_bulletin-2097-html-newsletter)

[4bee]

Both of the plane's "black boxes," which contain the aircraft's data and communication records, have been recovered — but some memory has been lost due to damage, Iranian authorities said.


Abdul with a Mash Hammer perchance?


"Just make it look like an accident Abdul, & chuck some dirt over it."



A reasonable person might think the reason for lack of communication was that as it happened so quickly there were other pressing duties by the Flight Deck to take care of, like the lives of 176 souls, but alas it was suddenly all too late.

[PhilipA]

Now here is a report from the Gasp! Murdoch News limited press.I leave it to you whether you think it is just another part of the great News Limited conspiracy or actually true.


Iran has announced that its military ‘unintentionally’ shot down a Ukrainian jetliner, killing all 176 aboard.

The statement came Saturday morning and blamed “human error” for the shootdown.The jetliner, a Boeing 737 operated by Ukrainian International Airlines, went down on the outskirts of Tehran during takeoff just hours after Iran launched a barrage of missiles at US forces.Read Next






Iran had denied for several days that a missile downed the aircraft (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/us-believes-ukraine-boeing-737-was-shot-down-by-iran-missiles-by-mistake/news-story/5e331523cf1341777aa3f66d337ae5da). But then the US and Canada, citing intelligence, said they believe Iran shot down the aircraft.The plane, en route to the Ukrainian capital of Kiev, was carrying 167 passengers and nine crew members from several countries, including 82 Iranians, at least 63 Canadians and 11 Ukrainians, according to officials.AP

[DiscoMick]

Yes, they've admitted it and said those who did it would be held responsible.

Iran admits to 'unintentionally' shooting down plane
Iran blames human error for 'unintentionally' shooting down Ukrainian plane - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-11/iran-admits-to-shooting-down-ukrainian-plane/11860508)

[4bee]

A statement read on state television said the airliner had flown close to a sensitive military site and parties responsible for shooting down the jet would be held accountable.


Why would they have a "Sensitive Military Site" so close to a runway where passengers in every aircraft, Taking off & Landing could sticky beak over the fence?? If not a visual matter then why the unnecessary action?

Sounds like more ME Bull****/Cover up/Whitewash stuff.

Will we ever know & can prove who actually gets kicked in the ballcocks or is enjoying a 2/5 year Mediterranean Holiday paid for by Iran although more likely the blood of the deceased?

AKA Rainbow Warrior in NZ where the guilty culprits apparently lived it up on a Pacific French Possession Island for a few years courtesy of the French Gubmint & then eventually drifted back to La Belle France..

[101RRS]

Why would they have a "Sensitive Military Site" so close to a runway where passengers in every aircraft, Taking off & Landing could sticky beak over the fence?? If not a visual matter then why the unnecessary action?

Sounds like more ME Bull****/Cover up/Whitewash stuff.



Hmm what like RAAF Fairbairn and Canberra Airport and the Joint Headquarters, like Darwin Airport and its military use, like RAAF Williamtown and Newcastle Airport, NAS Nowra and Nowra Airport.

[JDNSW]

See post #7!

[bob10]

The Americans have known since the incident that it was an Iranian missile that bought the plane down. They also knew well before the missile attack on Iraq bases when and where it was going to happen. Sigint and chatter from Iran warned them. They merely moved all personnel right out of the area, or into secure bunkers. The airline tragedy was unplanned. I guess we'll never know why commercial aircraft weren't grounded or diverted to different flight paths. 176 innocent people were the collateral damage of arrogant pig headed men . The US Space Based Infra Red System, or airborne radar[ perhaps even the RAAF aircraft currently in the area] would have tracked the launch of the ground to air missiles.


U.S. Air Force Awards Lockheed Martin $1.5-Billion Contract For SBIRS Follow-On Spacecraft | Lockheed Martin (https://web.archive.org/web/20090605074247/http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2009/0602ss-sbirs.html)

[bob10]

More information on Space Based Infrared satellites.


First Light: Fourth U.S. Air Force SBIRS Satellite Sends First Images Back to Earth - May 2, 2018 (https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2018-05-02-First-Light-Fourth-U-S-Air-Force-SBIRS-Satellite-Sends-First-Images-Back-to-Earth)

[4bee]

Hmm what like RAAF Fairbairn and Canberra Airport and the Joint Headquarters, like Darwin Airport and its military use, like RAAF Williamtown and Newcastle Airport, NAS Nowra and Nowra Airport.


Yeah like those I suppose, 101, never seen them. Probably not much to see except a few various types of antennas but then Oz wouldn't use that proximity as an excuse to justify the shooting down of an Airliner.

So if there was bugger all to see why were the Iranians being so touchy & use that as an excuse? Like I said, ME Bull**** & covering there arses.

[bob10]

Yeah like those I suppose, 101, never seen them. Probably not much to see except a few various types of antennas but then Oz wouldn't use that proximity as an excuse to justify the shooting down of an Airliner.

So if there was bugger all to see why were the Iranians being so touchy & use that as an excuse? Like I said, ME Bull**** & covering there arses.

I think they were doing what you say. But then, so would any one else in the same situation. And besides, there is history here.

Shooting down of Iran Air 655 (Pt 1 of 3) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Onk_wI3ZVME)


Shooting down of Iran Air 655 (Pt 2 of 3) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50sYFs6p7lk)


Shooting down of Iran Air 655 (Pt 3 of 3) - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGU5FNtpBzM)

[DiscoMick]

There is a Revolutionary Guard base near the airport, according to the maps.

[bob10]

There is a Revolutionary Guard base near the airport, according to the maps.

The Revolutionary Guard are known for being loose. Brave, but ill disciplined and poorly trained. And prone to getting over excited.

[DiscoMick]

I suppose it's logical to have air defences next to your main airport.
The guards are known for being extremists who were willing to sacrifice themselves in human waves during the war with Iraq, in contrast with the regular army.
The Iranian leadership sounds genuinely contrite about this downing, which is understandable as 82 Iranians died and their families would be demanding justice.
The moderates in the leadership had managed to curb the radicals and restrain their response to Trump's assassination of their number 2, which can't have been easy. The hot heads would have been demanding blood. Then the hot heads shot down a civilian airliner.
This downing might actually strengthen the moderates, which would be good. They are so close to achieving their aim of getting the Yanks out of Iraq, which is also what Trump has promised his supporters.
Imagine if the situation had been the opposite and the American Vice President had been assassinated. They would have gone nuts and bombed every possible target. The Iranians have been very restrained, really.

[PhilipA]

Imagine if the situation had been the opposite and the American Vice President had been assassinated. They would have gone nuts and bombed every possible target. The Iranians have been very restrained, really.

I love the Post Modern Moral equivalency.

One mentioned is VC of the USA, the other is a terrorist responsible for thousands of lives lost through terrorist support including arming Hezbollah.

Actors like this are armed enemies and should have been treated the same as any terrorist years ago.

I was gobsmacked by Kilcullen saying they just let Iranians go when they were caught with their terrorist group.
Isn't a rule for police to try and get the "kingpin?"

So the USA has for years bent over backwards to try to dissuade the Iranians, to no avail until now.

Regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

It looks like heads will roll in the Iranian airspace unit, which will strengthen the hand of the moderates against the extremists, so that could be good.

'I wished I was dead': Iranian airspace unit accepts 'full responsibility' for downed Ukrainian plane
Iran commander says requests to shut down country's airspace denied ahead of Ukraine plane crash - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-11/iran-admits-to-shooting-down-ukrainian-plane/11860508)

‘They killed our sons and daughters’: anger rises in Iran over Flight 752

‘They killed our sons and daughters’: anger rises in Iran over Flight 752 | World news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/11/they-killed-our-sons-and-daughters-anger-rises-in-iran-over-flight-752?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[4bee]

The Revolutionary Guard are known for being loose. Brave, but ill disciplined and poorly trained. And prone to getting over excited.

But with no imagination. [biggrin]


157113

[bob10]

I love the Post Modern Moral equivalency.

One mentioned is VC of the USA, the other is a terrorist responsible for thousands of lives lost through terrorist support including arming Hezbollah.

Actors like this are armed enemies and should have been treated the same as any terrorist years ago.

I was gobsmacked by Kilcullen saying they just let Iranians go when they were caught with their terrorist group.
Isn't a rule for police to try and get the "kingpin?"

So the USA has for years bent over backwards to try to dissuade the Iranians, to no avail until now.

Regards PhilipA

You are looking at it through red white and blue glasses. Look at it through Iranian eyes, you may get another perspective. I won't condone either the USA, or Iran. One's as bad as the other. But as Mick said, the moderates may get stronger now. Go at it your way, you will just perpetuate the violence. What's needed here are level heads, and move forward. This conversation is moving away from ' flight'. perhaps we should let it go.

[trout1105]

The US and Iran are NOT on the same level at all, The Iranians are FAR worse and if you believe otherwise then I feel sorry for you .
Even the Iranian people are terrified of their own government, I very much doubt that that is the case in the US.
The "accidental" shooting down of this aircraft and the subsequent loss of 176 INNOCENT lives just goes to show the complete lack of Empathy on behalf of the Iranian armed forces.
At the altitude the plane was shot down from even blind Freddy could tell that it was a civilian aircraft and NOT a military plane and yet they shot it down anyway.
Bloody Unforgivable in my personal opinion.

[Saitch]

It's fascinating to me how quickly people jump to blame Trump for EVERYTHING. It doesn't matter what.

Sorry, JT, I beg to differ.

Trump would be 75% with the remaining 25% attributed to Climate Change,

[p38arover]

At the altitude the plane was shot down from even blind Freddy could tell that it was a civilian aircraft and NOT a military plane

At 4,600 ft (above ground). In the dark (0615 hrs)?

[AK83]

The US and Iran are NOT on the same level at all, The Iranians are FAR worse and if you believe otherwise then I feel sorry for you .
Even the Iranian people are terrified of their own government, I very much doubt that that is the case in the US.
....

This!
I had an Iranian friend at my old work, sitting chillin having a 'chrissy' period beer after work.
The story he told us of his woes .. not falling into line with government brainwashing cost him some family members, a business, and eventually fleeing to Aus.
All because he was apathetic towards politics and religion.
Now it wasn't the actual government .. who predominantly does care one iota for the population, but it's the government directives, messages to local religious leaders to make sure that the civvies fall into line in totality.
If not, basically persecution.
The way he described it, so that we can understand it, is that national govt policy is <insert whatever fanatical directive here>, this is filtered down to what amounts to council leaders.
Council leaders have personal vendettas to pursue, in effect, what they like to say and do, is like a law unto itself, so makes for a dogs breakfast of the government policy directives.
So the actual issue is that there are no checks and balances on the council leaders revenge biases against whoever.

Hence we have monumental humanitarian catastrophes, simply because some jealous/vengeful bastard in 'local religious leadership' .. which leads to what most far right followers see as too much foreign immigration .. and boat people sagas.

Anyhow, the sooner the yanks get themselves out of the mid east, the quicker the mid east states will begin the process of obliterating each other with their own micro wars, and eventually the area will quieten down at some point in the future.

[PhilipA]

You are looking at it through red white and blue glasses. Look at it through Iranian eyes, you may get another perspective.

Er like the perspective of the 300 demonstrators killed by the Iranian leadership in November ?

Let me know when 300 or say 1000 USA citizens on a population basis are killed at a demo.
Regards PhilipA

[bob10]

If people want to make this a discussion of their political belief, move it to CA.

[DiscoMick]

'They died immediately': Missile hit plane's cockpit from below, Ukraine says, as crash footage emerges
Iranian missile hit plane's cockpit from below, Ukraine official says, as crash footage emerges - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-12/iran-missile-hit-planes-cockpit-from-below,-says-ukraine/11861216)

[trout1105]

If people want to make this a discussion of their political belief, move it to CA.

A bit of the kettle calling the pot black there Mate [biggrin][bigwhistle]

[trout1105]

'They died immediately': Missile hit plane's cockpit from below, Ukraine says, as crash footage emerges
Iranian missile hit plane's cockpit from below, Ukraine official says, as crash footage emerges - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-12/iran-missile-hit-planes-cockpit-from-below,-says-ukraine/11861216)

And that makes it OK does it Mick???

[bob10]

A bit of the kettle calling the pot black there Mate [biggrin][bigwhistle]

You may not be aware, but I have you on my ignore list. So troll away all you like.

[trout1105]

You may not be aware, but I have you on my ignore list. So troll away all you like.

HeHe Get over yourself Bob , The very last thing in the World that I would worry about is If you read my posts or not.[bigwhistle]

Considering that the most Prolific reply's to the threads that you endlessly "Cut and paste" to this forum is yourself how on earth do you actually find the time to read what I post anyway?? [biggrin]

[DiscoMick]

And that makes it OK does it Mick???Where did I say that?

[BradC]

And that makes it OK does it Mick???

At least it's an indicator that perhaps the suffering was shorter than longer.
Small mercies and all that.

[Pickles2]

This!
I had an Iranian friend at my old work, sitting chillin having a 'chrissy' period beer after work.
The story he told us of his woes .. not falling into line with government brainwashing cost him some family members, a business, and eventually fleeing to Aus.
All because he was apathetic towards politics and religion.
Now it wasn't the actual government .. who predominantly does care one iota for the population, but it's the government directives, messages to local religious leaders to make sure that the civvies fall into line in totality.
If not, basically persecution.
The way he described it, so that we can understand it, is that national govt policy is <insert whatever fanatical directive here>, this is filtered down to what amounts to council leaders.
Council leaders have personal vendettas to pursue, in effect, what they like to say and do, is like a law unto itself, so makes for a dogs breakfast of the government policy directives.
So the actual issue is that there are no checks and balances on the council leaders revenge biases against whoever.

Hence we have monumental humanitarian catastrophes, simply because some jealous/vengeful bastard in 'local religious leadership' .. which leads to what most far right followers see as too much foreign immigration .. and boat people sagas.

Anyhow, the sooner the yanks get themselves out of the mid east, the quicker the mid east states will begin the process of obliterating each other with their own micro wars, and eventually the area will quieten down at some point in the future.
We've had a couple of Iranian families come to our Church, both lovely, & hard working.
From what they tell me, You can call it what you like, and I don't know whether you'd call it the Government or not, but it's the "people who make the rules", maintain & carry out those "rules", and severely (not unusually by death) punish those they see as "offenders", that are the problem. And yes, the majority of the population are terrified. They would like to do something about it, but they are basically too frightened.
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, the society seems deeply divided and the zealots terrorise the ordinary people.

Protests and teargas as Iran faces public anger over aircraft downing

Protests and teargas as Iran faces public anger over aircraft downing | World news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/12/iran-riot-police-anti-government-backlash-ukraine?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Pickles2]

We've had a couple of Iranian families come to our Church, both lovely, & hard working.
From what they tell me, You can call it what you like, and I don't know whether you'd call it the Government or not, but it's the "people who make the rules", maintain & carry out those "rules", and severely (not unusually by death) punish those they see as "offenders", that are the problem. And yes, the majority of the population are terrified. They would like to do something about it, but they are basically too frightened.
Pickles.
One point I forgot to add.
One of the persons that I mentioned was very "Angry" with the Americans, sort of "sneered" at them,........but not for the reason you might think.
As I've said, it appears there is little that the Iranian people can do to change the "Regime", although they would like to. This person gave me the impression that many had expected America, in view of rhetoric etc, to "do something" about the regime, but, in reality, had done nothing of any consequence, "leaving them in the lurch"/ helpless, so to speak.
Now I make no secret of the fact that when the Iraq war started, I was all in favor, "Stormn Norman", & all that. But looking at the aftermath, I wonder if the same would occur in Iran. It seems to me that many of these countries can only function under the dictatorial, and yes certainly cruel & inhumane rule, currently existing in this part of the World.
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

One point I forgot to add.
One of the persons that I mentioned was very "Angry" with the Americans, sort of "sneered" at them,........but not for the reason you might think.
As I've said, it appears there is little that the Iranian people can do to change the "Regime", although they would like to. This person gave me the impression that many had expected America, in view of rhetoric etc, to "do something" about the regime, but, in reality, had done nothing of any consequence, "leaving them in the lurch"/ helpless, so to speak.
Now I make no secret of the fact that when the Iraq war started, I was all in favor, "Stormn Norman", & all that. But looking at the aftermath, I wonder if the same would occur in Iran. It seems to me that many of these countries can only function under the dictatorial, and yes certainly cruel & inhumane rule, currently existing in this part of the World.
Pickles.I certainly agree you can't impose a foreign electoral system and expect it to stick. That has failed in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Iran is one of the oldest societies on Earth and they will not submit to foreign domination. Historically, the regimes were powerful city states run by dictators who conquered their neighbours. There is no history of democracy.
They drove out the British, deposed the Shah who was imposed on them by the USA, and defeated the invasion by Saddam, backed by the USA.
They also drove out the foreign oil companies and seized control of their own oil reserves.
When the Americans try to bully Iran, it just strengthens the radicals and makes it harder for the moderates. Obama's nuclear deal strengthened the moderates. When Trump rejected the deal, the radicals became more powerful and nuclear activities resumed.
If the West wants a peaceful, rational Iran, it has to stop trying to bully them. Iran will never bend the knee.

[4bee]

It seems to me that some countries need a Despot to rule them like it or not, & when a vacuum occurs the countries seem to run into all sorts of Civil disorder. Iraq, Libya & probably others that are generally not known. Australians wouldn't tolerate it but the above two were like chooks with their bonces missing.

[Eevo]

It seems to me that some countries need a Despot to rule them like it or not, & when a vacuum occurs the countries seem to run into all sorts of Civil disorder.

correct, they need an iron fist

[bob10]

One point I forgot to add.
One of the persons that I mentioned was very "Angry" with the Americans, sort of "sneered" at them,........but not for the reason you might think.
As I've said, it appears there is little that the Iranian people can do to change the "Regime", although they would like to. This person gave me the impression that many had expected America, in view of rhetoric etc, to "do something" about the regime, but, in reality, had done nothing of any consequence, "leaving them in the lurch"/ helpless, so to speak.
Now I make no secret of the fact that when the Iraq war started, I was all in favor, "Stormn Norman", & all that. But looking at the aftermath, I wonder if the same would occur in Iran. It seems to me that many of these countries can only function under the dictatorial, and yes certainly cruel & inhumane rule, currently existing in this part of the World.
Pickles.

I really didn't want to jump into this politicised flight thread, but I give you this advice. Buy and read' FIASCO, the American military adventure in Iraq' by Thomas E Ricks. Check it out on Amazon, or similar site.

[AK83]

One point I forgot to add.
One of the persons that I mentioned was very "Angry" with the Americans, sort of "sneered" at them,........but not for the reason you might think.
As I've said, it appears there is little that the Iranian people can do to change the "Regime", although they would like to. This person gave me the impression that many had expected America, in view of rhetoric etc, to "do something" about the regime, but, in reality, had done nothing of any consequence, "leaving them in the lurch"/ helpless, so to speak.
...

Conspiracy theory hat on! [tonguewink]
There is a 99.99% probability that the US don't want to change the Iranian regime.
Unless a US pres is elected that has zero ties to their military industrial string pulling puppeteers, there is no chance that the US would want any ending of hostilities between middle eastern factions. it's not good for business, so to speak.
So while they may want to get themselves out of there, that doesn't mean they want to see peace!

[Johndoe]

Every president has to have there war.
Trumpy is running out of time.

[4bee]

And bugger everyone they get involved! Maybe he'd like to pick up a gun & go & fight his own war. away from civilisation.

[DiscoMick]

I doubt that, since he repeatedly dodged Vietnam by running some bull excuse.

[4bee]

Don't know about Trump, but George Bush the younger certainly appeared to get squirreled away to some Nat. Air Guard backwater & apparently did bugger all service. Daddy's influence? I'll leave you to judge that.

Edited. Ah ha, seems Trump was a coward as well. No further comment.:rolleyes:





When Mr McCain’s plane was shot down over Hanoi during his 23rd bombing mission Mr Trump, nine years his junior, was studying the real estate business at Pennsylvania University’s esteemed Wharton School (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/11752460/Donald-Trump-lived-glamorously-while-John-McCain-was-held-captive-in-Vietnam.html). He was able to avoid conscription through a series of student deferments, as well as a medical deferment for a bone spur in his foot..

[Tins]

Mods, is there any chance that the political garbage becoming prevalent in this thread could be consigned to CA where it belongs??

I started this to make people aware of a tragedy, not to begin some sort of political bashing exercise.

I have received warnings from mods for far less than what is going on here.