Suspension Lift Options D4

[BennyF]

Hi all - first post on this forum. I’ve been reading for a while so I know I’m reaching out to the right people.

I’ve recently purchased a 2015 Disco 3.0L TDV6. It’ll be used primarily as a family car but I will most definitely be getting it off-road so I need to get it up to spec.

I’ve got a long (and very expensive) list of ‘must haves’ and ‘nice to haves’. For the most part, it’s a simple matter of my prioritising what I can afford and when.

One issue I keep bumping into is the lift kit. I’ve looked at various lift rods and electronic variable solutions like LLAMS. Each option appears to be good but with some trade offs.

Lifting with rods is essentially a full time lift which isn’t ideal for the day to day that I need to do (3 and 4yr olds getting into the rig). I’ve also been advised that I’ll get a much tougher ride as the bags and I love the soft ride I currently have. Are they easy enough to pop on when heading off-road or is it not recommended?

Next I looked at the LLAMS solution and on the surface, it looked like a no brainer... but then I read that there may be complications regarding insurance and legality. I’m a legit Safety Sam so if there’s a risk insurance will be compromised, I unfortunately can’t consider it.

That takes me to the GAP IID solution to adjust the lift heights. I think it looks brilliant. I’m pretty solid with technology so the interface and tech aspects don’t intimidate me. If there is a risk with insurance, it’ll be mitigated by me simply inserting and removing the device when it’s needed - which would be limited to tougher terrain and crossings (I assume?).

What are people’s thoughts on these options in the context of having the best, temporary solution for when you need it - rather than a permanent 2.5-3” lift.

Does ongoing use of the GAP IID solution in anyway compromise the ECU? Can you over do it? Can the plug wear from repeated use? Anyone experience any weird issues with it?

Your opinions and advice is much appreciated.

Cheers

[Graeme]

Next I looked at the LLAMS solution and on the surface, it looked like a no brainer... but then I read that there may be complications regarding insurance and legalityNever heard that suggestion before so I can only assume that someone has their own agenda. There's no difference between LLAMS and temporary use of different height calibrations via the Gap tool except that LLAMs is simpler and faster to switch on and off just by rotating a knob.

However you may want to get a diagnostic tool first for its diagnostic capabilities and occasional use of other height calibrations then if use warrants, get LLAMS later.

[BennyF]

Never heard that suggestion before so I can only assume that someone has their own agenda. There's no difference between LLAMS and temporary use of different height calibrations via the Gap tool except that LLAMs is simpler and faster to switch on and off just by rotating a knob.

However you may want to get a diagnostic tool first for its diagnostic capabilities and occasional use of other height calibrations then if use warrants, get LLAMS later.

Yes I too was surprised by the conversation on here (a thread dedicated to it from memory). I did have to step back and think “there are a LOT of people on this forum that have LLAMS and they’d presumably be insured”.

If it turns out that there are no legal/insurance issues, then it rockets to equal first for my requirements.

[rocket rod]

My reckoning with the various options are;

Rods- cheap, simple, a little inconvenient.
LLAMS - expensive, single use (ie it only does lift), very convenient, hardest to install. It's my preferred choice.
GAP Tool- expensive, multiple uses (I suggest it's a must have whether you want lift or not), fiddly to use (need to plug in device, get phone out, use software), to change settings you have to do all this again.

My take on the insurance side of things is, all of these devices are not doing anything different to what you can do with the buttons in the car except is lowers >40km/h. People do suspension lifts with springs and shocks all the time and have no insurance issues, except possibly stupidly high lifts.

[letherm]

Hi all - first post on this forum. I’ve been reading for a while so I know I’m reaching out to the right people.

I’ve recently purchased a 2015 Disco 3.0L TDV6. It’ll be used primarily as a family car but I will most definitely be getting it off-road so I need to get it up to spec.

I’ve got a long (and very expensive) list of ‘must haves’ and ‘nice to haves’. For the most part, it’s a simple matter of my prioritising what I can afford and when.

One issue I keep bumping into is the lift kit. I’ve looked at various lift rods and electronic variable solutions like LLAMS. Each option appears to be good but with some trade offs.

Lifting with rods is essentially a full time lift which isn’t ideal for the day to day that I need to do (3 and 4yr olds getting into the rig). I’ve also been advised that I’ll get a much tougher ride as the bags and I love the soft ride I currently have. Are they easy enough to pop on when heading off-road or is it not recommended?

Next I looked at the LLAMS solution and on the surface, it looked like a no brainer... but then I read that there may be complications regarding insurance and legality. I’m a legit Safety Sam so if there’s a risk insurance will be compromised, I unfortunately can’t consider it.

That takes me to the GAP IID solution to adjust the lift heights. I think it looks brilliant. I’m pretty solid with technology so the interface and tech aspects don’t intimidate me. If there is a risk with insurance, it’ll be mitigated by me simply inserting and removing the device when it’s needed - which would be limited to tougher terrain and crossings (I assume?).

What are people’s thoughts on these options in the context of having the best, temporary solution for when you need it - rather than a permanent 2.5-3” lift.

Does ongoing use of the GAP IID solution in anyway compromise the ECU? Can you over do it? Can the plug wear from repeated use? Anyone experience any weird issues with it?

Your opinions and advice is much appreciated.

Cheers

Hi BennyF

Welcome to the forum[bigsmile1]

My personal experience is that I was going to buy the LLAMS kit due to the cost of the GAPIID tool at the time and the GAPIID not being Blue Tooth. I also had another GAPIID type tool at the time called a Nanocom which is very similar in functionality. My main use is to lower the car to make access better for my wife. Possible on the Nanocom but tedious at the time. Excellent on the LLAMS as it's just the turn of a knob. I ended up going with the GAPIID though as it later came out in a blue tooth version and the cost differential was then minimal and it has the added functions inherent in it that were not in the LLAMS. I can drop the car (D4 2013) to its bump stops with the GAPIID using the app on my phone in about 5 taps. Launch app, connect to tool, select Height Control, select bump stops, confirm. All up about 20 or 30 seconds. The longest part is waiting for the suspension to get down to bump stops. I sold the nanocom to a forum member. Personally it was a better option a I got the suspension alterations I needed and also had a diagnostic tool that I could use through my phone.

There is a warning on the GAPIID site about leaving the tool plugged in all the time. Another member here queried this and it is because if you don't turn off the tool it will keep looking for a connection and can drain your car battery. I bought mine in April 2017 and it has been permanently plugged in since then. I had my car serviced today (6 years and 2 months since I bought it and had the battery replaced as a precautionary measure as it was showing signs of degradation. Obviously having the tool plugged in has had no effect. That said I have forgotten to disconnect (to clarify, I mean through the app not by physically disconnecting it) a few times and later remembered and gone out to the car to disconnect it. The position of the obiid port is inconvenient and would cause a problem if the tool was connected there. I bought a flat extension ribbon cable and it sit underneath the steering wheel behind the cover panel.

Bottom line is that either solution will work. The GAPIID was my choice because of added functions and I'm happy to wait a few seconds to use a phone rather than a simple knob twist. Some people do not want to wait and of course you would need to stop to use a mobile phone unless you have a passenger. Once again I would be happy to wait for the added functionality gains. You can of course leave the tool "on" while you're driving as your battery is in no danger of discharging while the engine is running.

Very much a personal circumstances choice but that's my experience.

HTH

Regards,
Martin

[101RRS]

Benny - if you have issues with LLAMs then you must have issues with any type of lift as the issues you mention apply to them all.

Garry

[DiscoJeffster]

I used GAP as I only need to permanently raise my vehicle for off-road travel a couple of times a year. I don’t need to lower like some regularly. For me GAP does the job. Takes longer, but I set it +40mm at the start of the holiday and reset at the end. Simple. In the in between I use the standard height buttons to gain further height if required.

The dual purpose of GAP makes it the right investment for me for my infrequent use.

[Tombie]

“I’d only fit it when going offroad etc”

Huh?!?!? [emoji38] So when most likely to damage the vehicle you would fit something you’re worried would potentially make insurance invalid (BtW, it won’t cause ANY insurance issues).

GAP tool first, Suspension controller second.

[BennyF]

“I’d only fit it when going offroad etc”

Huh?!?!? [emoji38] So when most likely to damage the vehicle you would fit something you’re worried would potentially make insurance invalid (BtW, it won’t cause ANY insurance issues).

GAP tool first, Suspension controller second.

I’d argue that I’m more likely to have an insurance event on the road during day to day driving. I’ve been off-roading for years and while things break, fail and go wrong, we’ve never had to lodge an claim.

I’ll have a chat to Club 4x4 and get their perspective. If they’re OK with a LLAMS kit, then the grey areas should be cleared (for me anyway).

Thanks to everyone else for their input.

[INter674]

Just been thru a nightmare exercise with mods to a Patrol due to a call in .. from who and why we were not told by the rego people in Tas Gov.

Car has engineers cert for various mods in accordance with the national code.. something the rego office did not check b 4 issuing the call in. .but dug in after we sent in the details.....which they had..saying it still had to be inspected.

Anyhow on talking with the office they said any mods to suspension required approval...as well as eg long-range tank. ...tick...turbos. .. tick...etc

Now I said I own a car that can from factory lift more than the code allows. That's okay they said but if that system is changed eg to over ride the factory provisions....it requires approval and they said it could affect insurance etc. So I spoke with RACT insurance and they seemed relaxed about mods eg. GAP etc provided they were listed with them...inc bull bar....winch etc.

But I've been with them for decades so they may be being more accommodating than others and who knows what might happen re a claim.

Ps on the Pootrole the stuupid engineer forgot to list the removal of the rear seats on the compliance plate. So we had to put them back in. There goes the rear drawer system😐

Engineers....?..well there's only a couple here in Tas now both 3 hours away from us and very expensive too. Some are going the Engineers in Vic instead...easier to deal with😎

[Tombie]

Hot tip - Drop Club4x4.

So many exclusions in their policy, especially one covering fires from electrical faults.

[Tombie]

I’d argue that I’m more likely to have an insurance event on the road during day to day driving. I’ve been off-roading for years and while things break, fail and go wrong, we’ve never had to lodge an claim.

I’ll have a chat to Club 4x4 and get their perspective. If they’re OK with a LLAMS kit, then the grey areas should be cleared (for me anyway).

Thanks to everyone else for their input.

Traffic incidents are certainly a higher risk, however when on the road with Llams in normal road mode the vehicle is stock - so no accident could be attributed to the device - therefore no grounds to nullify insurance.

The device, or even doing the lift via the Gap tool, will still only allow the suspension to operate within a factory range of motion.

I wouldn’t worry either way.

Keep in mind that the vehicle, once modified with the usual off-roading gear, and loaded with a weekend away worth of essentials and family will most likely end up like all other offroad use vehicles; over GVM. That is a challenge very few manage to meet effectively.

Anywho [emoji6] enjoy your new machine, they are a great vehicle and looked after, are a sense of much enjoyment.

[LRD414]

I have been on this forum for more than 5 years and read back into the history extensively from the years before that when researching accessories and modifications. I’ve never come across anyone with an issue between Llams and insurance. The chances of an insurance company understanding what Llams is (and is not) or does would be virtually zero I think.

And ability for Llams to be the cause of an event that leads to claim rejection? I don’t see that as feasible. We are not talking about modifications in the engineering realm. The potential capability of a diagnostic tool to change things would be arguably more of a risk in an insurance context.

I have both Llams and a Gap iiD BT.

Regards,
Scott

[DiscoJeffster]

The device, or even doing the lift via the Gap tool, will still only allow the suspension to operate within a factory range of motion.

One could argue that if you are hard setting your vehicle higher to avoid the dreaded “return to normal height”, you have worked around a safety feature presumably designed to maintain the vehicles stability at speed, not just infuriate the driver. So I’d say it’s not exactly the same, but there’s no way in hell an assessor is going to pick it anyhow.

[Tombie]

One could argue that if you are hard setting your vehicle higher to avoid the dreaded “return to normal height”, you have worked around a safety feature presumably designed to maintain the vehicles stability at speed, not just infuriate the driver. So I’d say it’s not exactly the same, but there’s no way in hell an assessor is going to pick it anyhow.

Agree [biggrin], way too many variables to be an impact.

Example: Even raised at 50mm, then without a rack loaded on top COG would be lower than with the 75kg max weight on the roof at normal ride heght
As decreed though in our VSI - a 50mm lift is an uncertified modification, so the addition of 50mm is entirely legal.

[BennyF]

I have been on this forum for more than 5 years and read back into the history extensively from the years before that when researching accessories and modifications. I’ve never come across anyone with an issue between Llams and insurance. The chances of an insurance company understanding what Llams is (and is not) or does would be virtually zero I think.

And ability for Llams to be the cause of an event that leads to claim rejection? I don’t see that as feasible. We are not talking about modifications in the engineering realm. The potential capability of a diagnostic tool to change things would be arguably more of a risk in an insurance context.

I have both Llams and a Gap iiD BT.

Regards,
Scott

Here’s the thread that I came across when searching for the legality of LLAMS.

Some of the people here claiming to have never had the issue raised clearly have forgotten the conversation, especially Graeme who states that it needs to be hard disconnected when getting back on the paved stuff. Granted, it was more than a few years ago but running a google search brings it right up for newbies like me.

In any case, it doesn’t matter what I think or anyone else on this forum , it comes down to the insurer and what they’ll do to get out of out of paying a claim. A GAP IID is easily disconnected and hidden. Plus it’s got a few more functions of value.

Don’t get me wrong, LLAMS looks easier and faster to use but the install, risk and single functionality come second the GAP (in my opinion).

Sincere thanks to everyone for your wise words. I’m so amped to have the D4 and be embarking on the journey of tricking it out and hitting the bush with the family. Just have to remind myself that it’s not a sprint! Haha.

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/archive/index.php/t-118349.html

157405

[BennyF]

Hot tip - Drop Club4x4.

So many exclusions in their policy, especially one covering fires from electrical faults.

Really? I hadn’t looked that far yet as I’ve just rolled my road policy over for now. I know quite a few people with Club4x4 so hopefully they’re not at risk.

Who do you recommend?

Thanks in advance.

[scarry]

Following on from Tombies hot tip,

Check it includes or doesn't exclude contaminated or dirty fuel damage to engine.
Some also cover miss fueling.

I couldn't find one that covered both,so just went with the dirty/contaminated fuel.

And sorry,can't remember what company it is with,but i did cancel the old policy as it didn't cover what i wanted.

[Tombie]

That comment by Graeme was to highlight how you could disable it to be “offroad only”.

I wouldn’t take too much notice of the posts of a 3 time poster from 8 years ago that made those 3 posts and never logged on again [emoji41]

The reality is suspension can be raised by 50mm without engineering. The law makes no allowances for speeds at which this can be done - a LR can stay +50mm up to 50km/h factory and this is not specified as a minimum/maximum speed under ADRs. Technically the ride height of a LR is specified as Xmm to Ymm so +50mm above Y is still technically within tolerance.

I’d be very surprised if an insurance company even knows what it is, or what it does. And unspecified accessories will not void insurance, only not be paid for during a claim.

Please, relax your fears, you likely wouldn’t think twice about a 50mm coil lift (and they’re legal in all states).

[Tombie]

Really? I hadn’t looked that far yet as I’ve just rolled my road policy over for now. I know quite a few people with Club4x4 so hopefully they’re not at risk.

Who do you recommend?

Thanks in advance.

In the past I have used CGU, Shannon’s and our RAA.

I have full offroad cover, all accessories - just no competition work. Never had a problem with any of them.

[Bru]

For what it’s worth this is what I did to combat the self lowering at 50ks and it’s worked a treat, I’ve got mine on a permanent 1” lift and it’s perfect for where I go which is a combination of unsealed roads, sand and a bit of rock climbing. Real easy to do and costs nothing. And in my opinion the added bonus it looks great that bit higher. But all that said we are all driving one of the best if not the best off the shelf 4x4s going , so dont over think it and just enjoy.
Cheers

DIY 2" LR3 Suspension Lift - Land Rover Forums - Land Rover Enthusiast Forum (https://landroverforums.com/forum/lr3-28/diy-2-lr3-suspension-lift-59537/)

[Geedublya]

For what it’s worth this is what I did to combat the self lowering at 50ks and it’s worked a treat, I’ve got mine on a permanent 1” lift and it’s perfect for where I go which is a combination of unsealed roads, sand and a bit of rock climbing. Real easy to do and costs nothing. And in my opinion the added bonus it looks great that bit higher. But all that said we are all driving one of the best if not the best off the shelf 4x4s going , so dont over think it and just enjoy.
Cheers

DIY 2" LR3 Suspension Lift - Land Rover Forums - Land Rover Enthusiast Forum (https://landroverforums.com/forum/lr3-28/diy-2-lr3-suspension-lift-59537/)

If you have an IID Tool it is very easy to set up a height change either higher or lower. I run at -10mm normally to give a slightly softer ride and change to +25mm on dirt roads to give more centre clearance. No mucking around with rods.

[Tombie]

And on the highway - lower = less fuel burn... I consistently get better economy if lowered on the highway.

[Graeme]

Here’s the thread that I came across when searching for the legality of LLAMS.

Some of the people here claiming to have never had the issue raised clearly have forgotten the conversation, especially Graeme who states that it needs to be hard disconnected when getting back on the paved stuff. Granted, it was more than a few years ago but running a google search brings it right up for newbies like me.
Its a bit late but I've only just recalled that the quote by CraigL was taken from wording referring to height modifications that lowered the rear or one side to aid wheel-chair access where the system was required to have an interlock to ensure that the vehicle was level again before moving off. Legislation explicitly prohibits the raising or lowering of other than the whole vehicle.

[letherm]

If you have an IID Tool it is very easy to set up a height change either higher or lower. I run at -10mm normally to give a slightly softer ride and change to +25mm on dirt roads to give more centre clearance. No mucking around with rods.

Pardon my ignorance but how does this make the ride softer? Genuine question as my wife feels every bump in the road and anything that can alleviate that I will do. I too have the GAPIID and use it all the time to lower to bump stops to help her get in and out. I assumed that having a lower suspension would have the opposite effect.

Martin

[Geedublya]

Pardon my ignorance but how does this make the ride softer? Genuine question as my wife feels every bump in the road and anything that can alleviate that I will do. I too have the GAPIID and use it all the time to lower to bump stops to help her get in and out. I assumed that having a lower suspension would have the opposite effect.

Martin
The more air pressure in the bags the higher the spring rate. Less air pressure is a lower spring rate. Air bags aren't linear like a coil spring, as they compress the air pressure and spring rate rises. Try running over bumps (same speed) at off-road height and then normal height to feel the difference.

There is a compromise between softness and travel. You can try lowering the car in small increments to find the ideal. If you go too far the bump stops come into play and they make the ride too harsh. On my D4 I ran at -20 on smooth city roads and motorways but if the road is rough you can run out of travel and hit the bump stops. Be aware also that a non standard height affects your wheel alignment. If you find a more comfortable height and intend to run it most of the time you can get a wheel alignment at that height to prevent excessive tyre wear.

It would be nice if they developed multi stage airbags so the ride became softer when the height increased, one thing I dislike about Landrover air suspension is how stiff it becomes as you lift.

[josh.huber]

That's actually not true,
it's an urban myth. It's true in truck suspension where the bags are not in shrouds. They grow as the pressure and load increases.
In these cars the bags are in a aluminium tube which limits the diameter of the bag end therefor the spring rate.
Adding air raises the vehicle with very small rise in pressure. It only needs to over come static friction of tyres and suspension bushes etc.
These suspension systems have a constant Spring rate regardless of height. So adding or reducing height only gets you further away from bump stops.

[josh.huber]

Also coils are available in both linear and progressive spring rates. Linear. Move the same amount per force applied.
Example 5mm per 100kg applied.
But progressive coils will start at 5mm per 100kg and then stiffen to to
3mm per 100kg then
2mm per 100kg
Getting stiffer as they compress.

[Geedublya]

For the purposes of the discussion I was talking about straight rate springs. Progressive coil springs are available but fairly rare.

Set your height at off road height or even better extended height and you will definitely notice a difference in the spring rate.