Battery Torture Test

[rocket rod]

Recently I shared an installation of a lithium based DBS (see Lithium Battery Install Instructions (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/276570-lithium-battery-install-instructions.html)) and there were a few requests for real world testing so what I did was use the Fusion lithium and Optima batteries in a standalone situation to see how long they would power my fridge until the battery was drained or the low voltage setting of the fridge kicked in.

So, for the test I used a Snowmaster (Opposite Lock badged) 72L dual compartment fridge. I set both compartments to -15C and the low voltage cut out was set to 11.7V. I kept the lids of the fridge open so the compressor ran continuously for each test. My fridge now hates me! The Fusion battery is brand new, the Optima is about 3 years old but was recently tested and was all good.

To see the amps used, I put a watt meter inline on the power lead to the fridge and to keep time I had a battery voltmeter that stores battery voltage every 2 mins. I connected these at the start of the test and read them when the fridge cut out. Now I didn’t sit by the fridge for times shown below so they maybe a little out but not by much as I was checking them every half hour or so.

Results
Optima 55A Yellowtop, Runtime 6hr, 34A
Fusion Lithium 100A, Runtime 19hr, 95A

These are pretty much inline with what I was thinking and fulfills my objective of getting multiday use out of my DBS. Remember these are continuous run time figures so for everyday use I would say the compressor comes on for about 20minutes for every hour, which means the fridge would run for about 3 times as long as these numbers suggest. I would also say it’s essential you have a proper battery meter installed with a lithium as it outputs a constant voltage until right at the end when it plummets. If you don’t have one you have no way of knowing the charge of your battery. With the Optima the voltage drop was constant.

Now, you’re going to ask about charging. Well I haven’t completed that yet other than to say after installing the Lithium back in the car and driving for an hour, according to the battery meter I have replaced 28A. I know that it replaces 80% of capacity pretty quickly then the other 20% over a long period but if I get back 80A within a 3 or 4 hours of driving, I’m happy.

[John_D4]

It’d be interesting to see a comparison between 2 batteries of similar physical size

[drivesafe]

Hi Rod and mate I am sorry but that is by no means a fair comparison of the two battery types.

First off, going on the info you posted up in your other two threads, because you were not using your Traxide DBS as it was intended, there is every likelyhood that your Optima is in a very poor condition, so there can’t be an honest comparison between the two batteries.

Next, you discharged the lithium battery down to 100% DoD, and while a Optima Yellowtop can also be SAFELY discharged down to 100% DoD, you only discharged it down to 80% DoD.

This all means that none of your finding are relevant.

You need to carry out at least 5 to 10 charge discharge cycles on both batteries, with a decent battery charger and then carry out your comparison test.

This would bring the Optima back to somewhere near is correct State of Charge.

Your Optima, even when only discharged down to 20% SoC ( = 80% DoD ), you should have got at least 40 to 44Ah from that battery.

With out doing a number of charge discharge cycles on your lithium battery, you have no way of knowing the genuine Ah available from that battery.

Many poor quality lithium batteries can be labeled as being a 100Ah battery but may have as little as 80Ah actually available. My brand of 100Ah lithium batteries, which are on the other end of the quality spectrum, regularly return an Ah of 104 to 109Ah.

So again, you have a lot of work to do before you can make legitimate comparisons between these two batteries.

[drivesafe]

It’d be interesting to see a comparison between 2 batteries of similar physical size
Hi John, you can actually use different size batteries and still get comparatively accurate comparison between two different types of batteries, but as above, the testing has to be done correctly.

[John_D4]

Hi John, you can actually use different size batteries and still get comparatively accurate comparison between two different types of batteries, but as above, the testing has to be done correctly.

Agreed. But you can’t decide on which battery you’re going to buy if only 1 of the batteries actually fits in the battery tray!

[rocket rod]

Hi Rod and mate I am sorry but that is by no means a fair comparison of the two battery types.

First off, going on the info you posted up in your other two threads, because you were not using your Traxide DBS as it was intended, there is every likelyhood that your Optima is in a very poor condition, so there can’t be an honest comparison between the two batteries.

Next, you discharged the lithium battery down to 100% DoD, and while a Optima Yellowtop can also be SAFELY discharged down to 100% DoD, you only discharged it down to 80% DoD.

This all means that none of your finding are relevant.

You need to carry out at least 5 to 10 charge discharge cycles on both batteries, with a decent battery charger and then carry out your comparison test.

This would bring the Optima back to somewhere near is correct State of Charge.

Your Optima, even when only discharged down to 20% SoC ( = 80% DoD ), you should have got at least 40 to 44Ah from that battery.

With out doing a number of charge discharge cycles on your lithium battery, you have no way of knowing the genuine Ah available from that battery.

Many poor quality lithium batteries can be labeled as being a 100Ah battery but may have as little as 80Ah actually available. My brand of 100Ah lithium batteries, which are on the other end of the quality spectrum, regularly return an Ah of 104 to 109Ah.

So again, you have a lot of work to do before you can make legitimate comparisons between these two batteries.

Tim
I'm not sure what you mean by you were not using your Traxide DBS as it was intended as it was installed exactly as per your instructions and in Shared mode but anyway as I've said before I wanted to move away from using the starting battery so that means installing a different system to yours. I wish you would stop referring back to your system, it's irrelevant, I'm doing something different to you. Is that OK?

I fail to see why you don't think this is a real world test. Quite possibly you need to do this a few times to make it accurate but I'm not going to to that because I couldn't be bothered and my fridge would probably cack itself. However if the fridge is set to a cut out voltage, which they all will be, in my case 11.7V and 1 battery delivers 3 times the amps than the other then what does that say? Even if the Optima delivered 40 amps as you suggest, that's only 6 amps more than my test shows so I can't see really what the problem is. I can't discharge the battery anymore than when the fridge cuts out. Even your ABG-25 is designed to cut out at 11.6V.

As I said in my post before I DO NOT WANT TO USE THE STARTING BATTERY, so any of your comments must take that into consideration and should not refer back to your Traxide system.

You also mentioned about false battery labelling and I guess you can make that argument about any product but that's a complete red herring in this instance because my battery is labelled 100 amp and I got 95 amps out of it and I actually stopped the test early because the point had been proven.

I suggest you stop trying to SELL your products as the only solution, there's another section on this forum for that.

[W&KO]

Thanks for posting Rod, look forward to your updates.

I need lock on a brand of battery soonish. More than likely 200amp/hr lithium therefor need the dimension for the camper fitout.

My main drive is to be gas free for touring. Given space is at a premium I’m leaning towards lithium. I could add another AGM bit means a lot of weight and probably consume more space.

I’m also in the camp of leaving the starter out of the capacity equation

[drivesafe]

Hi again Rod and first off, it has nothing to do with me selling my gear. As you have already stated. you “HAD” my gear in your vehicle, and as you have now finally stated that you WERE using it as intended.

This brings us right back to an earlier thread, where I suggested something may be wrong with your specific setup and if you liked some help to sort it, I requested you post up some operating info.

Contrary to your claim I just want to try to sell my products. I make it a point of doing everything I can to help my customer, even when the problem has nothing to do with my products, and this service was being offered to you.

And as I pointed out, if you had a problem and didn't solve, you may still have the same problem with your new setup.

You obviously didn’t want to fix what ever the reason was for your short operating times. Thats your prerogative, and so be it.

Then you posted up about your Lithium setup and again fitting a lithium battery is your prerogative, but this does not alter the fact that much of your “ADVICE” was incorrect.

You and I are not the only ones reading these threads and if you, or anybody else posts up erroneous info, then it should be corrected, to make sure others don’t make the same mistakes.

And once again, your Optima is obviously in a poor state of health and as such, how is this comparison test in the slightest bit relevant.?

As for you not wanting use your cranking battery. WHY, you have not made your setup any safer.

[roverrescue]

Tim
I get your frustration with the backstory to this thread
AND
I totally understand your disdain of testing batteries with limited scientific rigour
BUT let’s just get real for a minute

THIS test (as best as I can comprehend) is as follows

Standalone discharge test
New charged Lithium vs/
Charged 3 year old but recently load tested Optima

Total Run time with load applied - 12V fridge

Once Battery output voltage (UNDER LOAD) dipped below 11.7V test stopped

Now that is NOT testing 11.7V DoD
Lithium’s hold their Voltage under load and of course will do well in this test

It won’t matter if the test is repeated 100 times
The Optima under these conditions will always perform close to tested



Now to reality - this test actually matches the working cycle for someone who want a battery that runs their fridge essentially seperate to the charging system
The OP has on this and other thread stated he wants to run his fridge easentially stand-alone
With no drag on vehicle once stopped

If he can adequately charge the Lith
He has found his solution

I know you have a deep love affair for Optima but to anyone who has no dog in the fight
They are expensive low capacity batteries. I know that silly late model JLR offerings have no space for a reasonable sized battery and so you have built a system around a small format battery BUT that doesn’t make Optima the only solution to running a fridge

As I mentioned in other thread - if I had the OP same goals
I would run 120W solar Victron 75/15 and a 130ah AGM to fridge
No connection to vehicle
That system is standalone and will work as long as there is a bit of sunshine around most days.
Hell even better keep the sexy Lith and run a dedicated Lith charge profile from a Victron and you’ll have indefinite fridge running even in Tasmanian winter !!!

S

[matti4556]

"Haters gonna hate"

[roverrescue]

I totally agree

The JLR BMS and limited engine bay space is a hateful compromise of fuel efficiency over touring functionality

JLR know their market though - It is you mob who choose yummy mummy SUVs for touring that can suck the consequences as far as JLR are concerned !!!!

S

[matti4556]

Let me re-write that S - Some who "hate" on Rod's solution (which I quite like as its a good read and offers real world results without being overly theoretical) are going to continue to fire-hose his comments and test method. That attitude particularly ****s me to tears. I hope this thread can continue with ongoing feedback on how Rod's system is coping in the future. I am sure there are lots of punters out there who want to pull the same trigger as Rod have. Looking forward to future feedback.
Cheers and keep up the good work - Matti

[drivesafe]

Hi folks and I think you are all missing the point here.

The OP originally stated he was only getting a nights run out of his Traxide system, and I wrongly assumed this was because he was running his system in IGNITION/STORAGE Mode, which would have caused the short run times he was getting.

He has just posted up that he was running his system as it was designed to be run.

If this is the case, then as he should have easily been getting up to 3 days run time, as he was only getting an over night run time, he didn't just have a problem, he had a MAJOR problem.

Now surely both logic and pure simple commonsense would dictate that you sort out the problem, especially one of this major proportion, before moving on.

The OP made it quite clear he was not interested in sorting the original problem, no matter how bad it was.

As this problem could have be caused by something as simple as a bad connection somewhere in the existing system, or at the other end of the spectrum, it could be something as serious as a stuffed alternator. Again, commonsense would dictate that you sort out the problem first.

The OP then goes on about his Lithium install, and I like reading these sorts of threads, as I regularly learn from them, and did not knock his installation, I corrected his erroneous “advice”

This crap that you can use thinner cable is nothing more than advertising B/S. It was used to make out you could compensate for the higher cost of a DC/DC device by saving money and using thinner cable.

Yes you could use thinner cabling, but by doing so you increased the amount of energy you needed to run your DC/DC device. You literally made an inefficient device even more inefficient.

In all fairness, while the average vehicle had constant alternator voltage operations, the only real issue was that you simply wasted energy.

The problem with this type of advertising crap is that when you have a variable voltage type operation, which the OP’s vehicle has, using thinner cable causes problems.

Most of the reputable DC/DC suppliers now SPECIFICALLY state that you MUST use thicker cable. The problem is, and this is where the OP has fallen into the advertising trap, the DC/DC suppliers don’t go into the reasons for having to using thicker cable.

Most good quality DC/DC devices are now designed to run in vehicles with variable voltage type operations. They are designed to adjust the output current based on the input voltage.

If the input voltage drops to low, the output battery charging current is reduced, which means you will need to drive even longer to try to recharge low batteries.

To reduce the effects of low voltage alternator operations, the DC/DC suppliers now recommend you use much thicker cabling, as this will help to reduce the some of voltage drop at the input of their devices.


There were a number of other errors I corrected, and the point of my replies was not about criticising what he was installing, but about how he was doing it, and as has also been pointed out, others are reading these threads and need to be made aware of the OP’s errors so they don’t make the same mistakes.

[roverrescue]

Tim
We would have to get Rods input
But From the three threads my impression is that his primary goal is actually
To have ~3 days runtime with NO draw off the main battery
Any specific fault with his particular Traxise install still won’t change that general point

Now I tend to agree that if you want a standalone fridge system just build one
Particular with the ****y pants BMS of a newer alternator
Chances are a DCDC setup won’t be as efficient at charging his system
When compared to a Traxise or pure solar BUT
If Rod is happy and gets his three days of cold beer

Cest la Vie

As Elsa would say, let it go , he is not interested in a Traxise optima combo!

S

[drivesafe]

As Elsa would say, let it go , he is not interested in a Traxise optima combo!
S
You just don’t get it, this not about my DBS, some other brand of DBS, or no DBS at all.

It is about sorting out what could be a HUGE problem in his vehicle.

[roverrescue]

Bad alternator
Bad Connections
Bad Traxide

Pick your poison

At least he has removed one of the variables !!!

S

[gavinwibrow]

You just don’t get it, this not about my DBS, some other brand of DBS, or no DBS at all.

It is about sorting out what could be a HUGE problem in his vehicle.


I get what you ALL are saying in the 2 related threads. I also tend to agree with Tim that some are not listening to each other and are talking on different planes/aspects.

I'm old fashioned in the sense that I would hate to leave the charging problem that the OP has just sitting there without at least identifying and preferably fixing it - who knows what underlying problems could be festering under there.

Even though he is impossible to get hold of some times, Tim has been a long term commenter on here and has supported and done well by any number of members, including me. I guess you could draw some sort of comparison with Colin at BBS - definitely prefer to have them both on board.
How does that (mis)quote go - I may disagree with what you say, but will fight to the death for your right to say it.

Can I now respectfully suggest that all opinions have been well expressed and we can get on with the future? (I too will be interested in any new knowledge arising).

[W&KO]

You just don’t get it, this not about my DBS, some other brand of DBS, or no DBS at all.

It is about sorting out what could be a HUGE problem in his vehicle.

In reading the other thread you drop TRAXIDE pretty often and you make reference either products or installation as inferior.

It’s looks a little like your ****ed the the OP has opted for a different system.

[W&KO]

Even though he is impossible to get hold of some times, Tim has been a long term commenter on here and has supported and done well by any number of members, including me. I guess you could draw some sort of comparison with Colin at BBS - definitely prefer to have them both on board.
).

Yep still waiting on my enquiry about lithium batteries......from a week or so ago.

[SeanC]

As a scientist I get where Drivesafe is coming from. I see a lot of myths/untested theories. Someone’s told someone that you must do this or can’t do that. Often this comes from a single failed experiment. They change something and it works. Therefore the change they made was the reason for success when actually they made a mistake with the initial experiment and if they had repeated it, it would have worked.

You are finding that your DBS (say combined 180AH) isn’t giving the performance expected. Therefore you decide the battery capacity isn’t enough. So you install a 100AH lithium. You get better performance than the DBS. Therefore an 100AH lithium is better than the 180AH lead acid DBS when actually there was problem with to DBS system so you were not getting maximum performance.

I have a lithium aux. system. I had read the advertising info. A 100AH lithium battery will give you the same performance as a 300AH lead acid. I read some of Drivesafe’s posts about lithium vs lead acid and realised that 100AH lithium was not going to give me the performance I was expecting. So I ended up with 2x100AH lithiums.

How are they going? They are doing the job. Haven’t had the need to discharge them very low so I can’t comment on charging speed. I have a 50A DCDC charger to minimise charging time and also a 240v lithium charger to make sure they are fully charged before leaving on a trip. Some of this is from info from Drivesafe’s posts.

It’s not great after spending considerable money and time to be told that maybe you are not going to get the performance you think you will or that time and money was not needed as there was a fault in the original system.

As someone who has a lot of knowledge in these maters, take Drivesafe’s advice. File it away. If you do have problems with the setup, then the answer may be there.

[drivesafe]

Yep still waiting on my enquiry about lithium batteries......from a week or so ago.
While not the correct place for this but the importer brought in his last batch of batteries in November and arranged for the next batch to be delivered at the end of February.

The batteries sold far quicker than expected and were all sold by the end of last month and until I knew when batteries were going to be available, I have held off with sales enquires.

I even took down the Lithium Battery page off my website.

The importer managed to get the next delivery brought forward to this coming week and I will contact all relived parties when I have some.

Sorry for the delay.

[W&KO]

While not the correct place for this but the importer brought in his last batch of batteries in November and arranged for the next batch to be delivered at the end of February.

The batteries sold far quicker than expected and were all sold by the end of last month and until I knew when batteries were going to be available, I have held off with sales enquires.

I even took down the Lithium Battery page off my website.

The importer managed to get the next delivery brought forward to this coming week and I will contact all relived parties when I have some.

Sorry for the delay.

A reply at the time just might keep the customer engaged.......maybe mention, out of stock, sizes available, comments on the manage system and usage I put in the email, availability date.

Although I did forget to ask for physical sizes as we are about to fitout our camper and need sizes.

Either way I’ve received replies from other suppliers.....and will do a bit more research and maybe ask a question or two

although bit hesitate about posting what we decide to go with and it’s install...

[drivesafe]

although bit hesitate about posting what we decide to go with and it’s install...
Why?

I didn't put down the equipment Rod was using, just the way he was setting up.

HONESTLY, if someone sees a problem or error on here, some of you are of the opinion that you keep you mouth shut and let others make the same ( potentially costly ) mistakes.

[W&KO]

Why?

I didn't put down the equipment Rod was using, just the way he was setting up.

HONESTLY, if someone sees a problem or error on here, some of you are of the opinion that you keep you mouth shut and let others make the same ( potentially costly ) mistakes.

Why...because my reason are similar to OP, I moved away from traxide DBS some years ago, I’ll install as per manufacturers instructions, I’ll listen to sales staff (getting good at picking knowledgeable ones)......but there is always a forum member (not aimed at you) just waiting to pull apart your post and say it can be done better for less

Sometimes a bit of tact goes along way.......

Either way, i do like you headlight upgrade kits.....and must get around to shooting an email your way.