Frozen relay

[S3ute]

Hello from several thousand feet above the Gulf of Carpentaria - usually Sherwood.

I’m in need of serious advice - preferably of the useful variety.

My truck has been parked up under my house for about five or so years and the steering relay has seized up at some time during that period of idleness. Here I’m talking about it’s ability to rotate as part of the steering rather than the body seizing in the chassis crossmember.

It was jammed tight but I was able to shift it with hits from a rubber and polythene headed mallet. But it didn’t really free as part of that process - it’s still can’t be moved except by belting it. So, I don't know what is going on inside the thing, and whether the central shaft is stuck to the tufnol bushes and the bushes are turning or what not. Repeated applications of penetrating oil over weeks have achieved nothing to date.

I’m pretty sure that extracting the whole relay from the chassis will turn into an exercise in genuine grief - it’s been there in all likelihood since at least 1975 and painted over at least twice.

What are the options?

I had been planning to find the filler and drain bolts and refill it anyway - would that help? Otherwise, can the relay be overhauled without removing the body from the crossmember?

I suppose, at the end of the day (plan D) is to cut the crossmember out and refit in a new section and search around for a repairable relay. Not something I hope to have to do. Plus the jungle drums seem to suggest that the general run of aftermarket relays enjoy poor longevity.

Cheers,

Neil

[Blknight.aus]

no oil in it and it rusted.

there isnt an ulta easy fix but sometimes packing them with grease and working it back and forth will help. (if it works its a bodge not a fix)

also if you've only undone the pitman arm and left the steering box attached you might not be looking at a siezed relay but a failed steering box.

the relay box can be overhauled in situe if you are both luck and brave (very very + taken a whole bottle of clarksons brave pills) there is a spring in there that is under the "I'm not kidding" (say that with mechanics words in your head) class of compression.

[JDNSW]

Rather than grease I would be inclined to fill it with light oil. I agree with Dave, it almost certainly has no oil and is rusty, but this treatment is likely to return it to sort of serviceable condition. You may need to replace the bottom seal (in situ) , which can be done safely, to keep the light oil in, and this is clearly needed anyway to keep the normal EP90 in.

Depending mainly on how long it has been oilless and how much driving has been done with it that way, it may be OK with this treatment, or a full overhaul may be needed. Or at least disassembling it to check the condition of the shaft and bushes.

As Dave indicates, do not attempt to remove the shaft without reading the manual.

[S3ute]

Hello and thanks for the prompt responses and suggestions.

Yes, I was well aware that they are a potential grenade. But, again, the reminder is warranted.

No, the steering box was removed for overhaul - the relay is doing it all on its own.

In the first instance I’ll try filling it with oil.

Cheers,

Neil

[Blknight.aus]

the reason I prefer grease over oil is the ease of getting it in.

Adapt a nipple to suit and pump away. with the grease going in under pressure you'll force it past any rust (as it will have air behind it which compresses) which gets "smeared" out as you move the internals around.

Oil generally works in a better way but grease is faster.

I'f you're going to use oil I'd be throwing a mix of ATF and Diesel in there using a smallish syringe.

[S3ute]

the reason I prefer grease over oil is the ease of getting it in.

Adapt a nipple to suit and pump away. with the grease going in under pressure you'll force it past any rust (as it will have air behind it which compresses) which gets "smeared" out as you move the internals around.

Oil generally works in a better way but grease is faster.

I'f you're going to use oil I'd be throwing a mix of ATF and Diesel in there using a smallish syringe.

Thanks again.

Appreciate the quick and useful response.

Cheers,

Neil

[JDNSW]

Some grease guns at least will pump oil quite satisfactorily..... (When I was little my father's car specified oil in the tie rod ends (at 500 mile intervals), and he did what the manual said.)

[Blknight.aus]

Some grease guns at least will pump oil quite satisfactorily..... (When I was little my father's car specified oil in the tie rod ends (at 500 mile intervals), and he did what the manual said.)

not one made by landrover and not most of the chinesium ones you buy today.

We had one at work that the plunger fit in so badly once the pullback was released it slowly pushed its way all the way through the cartridge. (yes pulling it back expelled a goodly amount out the hole the pull back shaft exits)

[gromit]

If you take the top cap off you can fill it with oil much faster.
The oil has to travel past the gaps between the ends of the Tufnol bush and you're normally trying to dribble it in via one of the bolt holes. For the sake of a gasket (or just gasket cement) removing the top cap is much easier.

You can replace the seal at the same time to stop water getting back in.


Colin

[1950landy]

Neil , as said fill it with oil the bushes in it are fiber. It doesn't hold much but takes a while to fill with an oil can & you will get sick of pumping it in . You will probably find the bottom seal will need replacing. I filled mine with floating grease , the grease they use in the swivel hubs on later LR's but is a little harder to get in I used a grease gun that will take oil as well as grease. Once the bushes are will oiled it should free up.
Wayne

[S3ute]

Neil , as said fill it with oil the bushes in it are fiber. It doesn't hold much but takes a while to fill with an oil can & you will get sick of pumping it in . You will probably find the bottom seal will need replacing. I filled mine with floating grease , the grease they use in the swivel hubs on later LR's but is a little harder to get in I used a grease gun that will take oil as well as grease. Once the bushes are will oiled it should free up.
Wayne

Wayne,

Hello from Darwin - thanks.

Genuinely appreciated.

How’s the rain at home?

Cheers,

Neil

[1950landy]

Wayne,

Hello from Darwin - thanks.

Genuinely appreciated.

How’s the rain at home?

Cheers,

Neil
Raining on & off all day & getting heavy showers over night. Having to pump 100mm out of the pool every couple of days. I think there is a lot more still coming.
Wayne

[S3ute]

Wayne,

Hello again and thanks.

We’ve had a lot of rain around Sherwood. Raining heavily there again today-tonight I believe.

I’m back on Sunday and planning to get stuck back into the truck during the week.

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

Hello again from Sherwood.

Just wanting to confirm that the filler hole on the relay is actually one of the two bolt holes (of the set of four on the cover at the top) that is oriented at 90 degrees to the two cross bolts that hold the relay in place?

I have taken two bolts out and have been syringing a mix of ATF and distillate into one of the holes - extremely slow. Warned that it would be slow, but it doesn’t seem to be going in as quickly as some YouTube clips suggest. It also isn’t voiding air or fluid from the opposite hole which I had expected.

Cheers,

Neil

[JDNSW]

According to my manual, any of the four bolt holes can be used.

[Tins]

Rather than grease I would be inclined to fill it with light oil. I agree with Dave, it almost certainly has no oil and is rusty, but this treatment is likely to return it to sort of serviceable condition. You may need to replace the bottom seal (in situ) , which can be done safely, to keep the light oil in, and this is clearly needed anyway to keep the normal EP90 in.

Depending mainly on how long it has been oilless and how much driving has been done with it that way, it may be OK with this treatment, or a full overhaul may be needed. Or at least disassembling it to check the condition of the shaft and bushes.

As Dave indicates, do not attempt to remove the shaft without reading the manual.

Agree, but I'd try a 80/20 mix of ATF/Acetone, which has amazing penetrating qualities. Of course, I have no idea if Acetone is contraindicated in the relay, but I doubt it ( someone will ). Of course, this would need to be drained and flushed and refilled with the correct stuff, but it will likely get it moving. Better than removing the thing from the chassis...... but, the ATF/Acetone mix is handy for that as well.... As is a Porta Power, some chain, and an oxy set.

Good luck.

[incisor]

Agree, but I'd try a 80/20 mix of ATF/Acetone,

what he says above!

[S3ute]

Hello again.

I’ve been using a mix of ATF and distillate so far - very slow to get it in via the top holes.

Also, not been effective yet. Still live in hope. May shift to acetone if nothing improves over the coming days.

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

Hello from Sherwood.

I did free the relay up a bit with a combination of atf and distillate plus repetitive swinging of the top arm back and forth with the aid of a long square section steel bar. However, it isn’t great and I decided it probably warranted pulling the guts out and reconditioning it anyway.

Here’s the challenge.

The relay housing is stuck in the chassis and several weeks of irrigating it with the atf/distillate mix plus a couple of weeks of sitting on a car jack with repetitive hits with a drift and hammer from the top and bottom sides hasn’t made much difference.

So, it’s a bit of a crossroads. Pull the innards out and refurbish it in situ or try some form of pressing or pulling it out of the chassis to do the same in a vice?

My quest is to find someone in Brisbane who has actually accomplished an overhaul using either method. Anyone out there with first hand experience?

Cheers,

Neil

[Blknight.aus]

to overhaul in chassis....

2 options..

1 build a press around the chassis cross member and use a proper press.....

2. improvise a press....


how goods your welding?

an improvised press is as simple as 2 pieces of H beam, some big washers, inch thread all and nuts to suit coupled with a 10T jack.

[S3ute]

Hello again.

Returning to the earlier question - anyone in Brisbane extracted a stuck relay from a chassis without wrecking the crossmember or replaced the innards while the housing was still in the crossmember?

Keen to get some first hand insights into the procedures that were used.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that getting the two upper half bushes into their correct position can be extremely trying - the inner housing hasn’t got parallel walls?

Cheers,

Neil

[flashman]

I have rebuilt around 7 or 8 relays some in situ. The relay housings can be rusted into the chassis and can only be replaced by cutting out the cross member . This is when the relay needs to be rebuilt whilst still in the cross member. Rebuilding in situ is no harder than rebuilding on the bench.
Be careful of aftermarket replacement relays , they are not a tight fit in the chassis tube. If necessary jam some shimsteel around the circular section to create a tight fit. If the the relay is not a tight fit in the chassis it will rock back an forth and crack the chassis , a problem I had with my military 2a. Required some serious welding to fix.
I live in sydney so will not be able to help you in Brisbane.

[JDNSW]

The ring bolted to the bottom of the crossmember is supposed to be a tight fit on the bottom plate of the relay, and takes the side load. It is not necessary for the relay to be a tight fit in the chassis.

[incisor]

The ring bolted to the bottom of the crossmember is supposed to be a tight fit on the bottom plate of the relay, and takes the side load. It is not necessary for the relay to be a tight fit in the chassis.

X2

that bottom ring is all thats needed...

[4bee]

As you have gone through all the soaking & bashing etc of the body to chassis, now place a Hydraulic Jack under the relay shaft & lift it so the wheels are off the floor & the weight is on the jack after loosening the ring bolts holding the relay into the chassis..


Overnight, this pressure of the front end weight can sometimes allow the relay to come out of it's own accord.

Good luck.

[1950landy]

Neal,
I am not sure if I am correct here , correct me if I am wrong ,but not everyone can see your post in the SLOWS section unless a member of SLOWS you may get more responce if you post your question in the Series 111 section at the top.
Wayne

[S3ute]

Overnight, this pressure of the front end weight can sometimes allow the relay to come out of it's own accord.
.

Hello again.

Nice thought but, unfortunately, after perching on the jack for a fortnight with ongoing irrigation and knocking it hasn’t moved a jot.

Starting to prepare for an in situ effort - Just waiting for all of the NOS parts to arrive.

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

Neal,
I am not sure if I am correct here , correct me if I am wrong ,but not everyone can see your post in the SLOWS section unless a member of SLOWS you may get more responce if you post your question in the Series 111 section at the top.
Wayne

Wayne,

Hello and thanks.

You’re obviously correct there. However, I try to give the SLOw site precedence in the vague hope that it might motivate the odd member to come on board.

Must admit that’s not been the overall experience to date. Occasionally I sneak over to the Series 3 site with technical questions - usually if I’m in a hurry or given up on the SLOw site.

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

The ring bolted to the bottom of the crossmember is supposed to be a tight fit on the bottom plate of the relay, and takes the side load. It is not necessary for the relay to be a tight fit in the chassis.

Hello again and thanks - yes, I was aware of all that wrt original and aftermarket diameter. I have a replacement machined retaining ring optimistically set for the original housing.

Looseness of fit is the last of my concerns at the moment - might be an issue should I get to the happy state of refitting the relay.

Cheers,

Neil

[JDNSW]

Something I have not tried, but occurred to me as something that might help is to try and scrape a lot of the rust out of the gap by working from below with a hacksaw blade or similar.

[4bee]

Hello again.

Nice thought but, unfortunately, after perching on the jack for a fortnight with ongoing irrigation and knocking it hasn’t moved a jot.

Starting to prepare for an in situ effort - Just waiting for all of the NOS parts to arrive.

Cheers,

Neil


Ah right. Next step in the removal procedure
.
Obtain 60cm of Semtex.

Wrap said Semtex around the relay & Chassis member & pack it in tightly.

Ignite the fuse (60 seconds should be enough time to vacate the premises.

Clear the shed fast.



When dust settles, pick up relay from 8 houses down prior to fettling chassis.


Job Done.[bigrolf]

[4bee]

Something I have not tried, but occurred to me as something that might help is to try and scrape a lot of the rust out of the gap by working from below with a hacksaw blade or similar.


Always assuming there is sufficient clearance to insert a Hacksaw Blade but a good idea if you can get one in.

A Mini Blade is thinner but I think it would lack the strength of the push/pull action.

[S3ute]

Always assuming there is sufficient clearance to insert a Hacksaw Blade but a good idea if you can get one in.

A Mini Blade is thinner but I think it would lack the strength of the push/pull action.

Hello again.

Also tried to no avail.

Cheers,

Neil

[4bee]

I tell you, Semtex is the only way to go, Neil.[bigrolf]

[S3ute]

I tell you, Semtex is the only way to go, Neil.[bigrolf]

Hello again from Sherwood.

There have been times when the thought has passed my attention. However, for now I'm persevering with the atf/distillate irrigation and occasional sideways belt with the drift and hammer.

As noted, I'm in the process of amassing the requisite NOS internal componentry - a mix of local and international acquisitions. Once they are all to hand a decision will have to be made on whether to keep trying to remove the housing for a clean up and bench repair or just drive out the innards and overhaul it in situ.

I saw an older post from a Victorian member that successfully used a couple of large pinchbars jammed under the flanges of the upper housing - I have a couple of those tools lying about and might give that a go before looking at rigging up captive jacks and so on.

Cheers,

Neil

[4bee]

Hello again from Sherwood.

There have been times when the thought has passed my attention. However, for now I'm persevering with the atf/distillate irrigation and occasional sideways belt with the drift and hammer.

As noted, I'm in the process of amassing the requisite NOS internal componentry - a mix of local and international acquisitions. Once they are all to hand a decision will have to be made on whether to keep trying to remove the housing for a clean up and bench repair or just drive out the innards and overhaul it in situ.

I saw an older post from a Victorian member that successfully used a couple of large pinchbars jammed under the flanges of the upper housing - I have a couple of those tools lying about and might give that a go before looking at rigging up captive jacks and so on.

Cheers,

Neil


Yeah, why not. What could possibly go wrong? [bigrolf]

[JDNSW]

If you do this, put a bit of heavier plate under the fulcrum of the pinch bars to spread the load and transfer the load to the sides of the crossmember.

[S3ute]

If you do this, put a bit of heavier plate under the fulcrum of the pinch bars to spread the load and transfer the load to the sides of the crossmember.

Hello again and thanks.

Yes, I had planned to do that to avoid damaging the crossmember - for both the pinchbar or any alternative captive jack attempt.

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

I have rebuilt around 7 or 8 relays some in situ. The relay housings can be rusted into the chassis and can only be replaced by cutting out the cross member . This is when the relay needs to be rebuilt whilst still in the cross member. Rebuilding in situ is no harder than rebuilding on the bench.

Hello again.

I’m still persevering with trying to extract the whole unit from the chassis without destroying the crossmember. As part of this I had another look from beneath the unit and managed to get a keyhole blade between it and the chassis tube to begin the laborious task of trying to clean the crud out from the sides. So far after two days I’m about 180 degrees around although the fit seems to be getting tighter from now and the diff partly interferes with the handle.

The alternative option remains of attempting to rebuild it in situ, as discussed before. So, I have a query for anyone who has done it.

The workshop manual has the rebuild starting from the bottom of the housing - hence an earlier question about the inner profile and whether the internal sides are parallel and without interference from top to bottom. Why I mention that is because there appears to be two common approaches to compressing the spring for insertion. One is the factory tool or a makeup copy, and the other is a couple of fabricated C clamps held in place by hose clips.

The first looks easier and safer, but I can’t see how it can be pressed into place from underneath without the handles fouling the crossmember, whereas it would be OK from the top.

The question - can you insert the spline, bushes, washers and spring from the top of the relay housing? Or must it be done from the bottom?

I haven’t pulled my relay apart yet, so don’t know what the inner profile looks like - the cut out diagram in the manual appears to show it as uniformly parallel sided.

Cheers,

Neil

[4bee]

Hello again.

I’m still persevering with trying to extract the whole unit from the chassis without destroying the crossmember. As part of this I had another look from beneath the unit and managed to get a keyhole blade between it and the chassis tube to begin the laborious task of trying to clean the crud out from the sides. So far after two days I’m about 180 degrees around although the fit seems to be getting tighter from now and the diff partly interferes with the handle.

The alternative option remains of attempting to rebuild it in situ, as discussed before. So, I have a query for anyone who has done it.

The workshop manual has the rebuild starting from the bottom of the housing - hence an earlier question about the inner profile and whether the internal sides are parallel and without interference from top to bottom. Why I mention that is because there appears to be two common approaches to compressing the spring for insertion. One is the factory tool or a makeup copy, and the other is a couple of fabricated C clamps held in place by hose clips.

The first looks easier and safer, but I can’t see how it can be pressed into place from underneath without the handles fouling the crossmember, whereas it would be OK from the top.

The question - can you insert the spline, bushes, washers and spring from the top of the relay housing? Or must it be done from the bottom?

I haven’t pulled my relay apart yet, so don’t know what the inner profile looks like - the cut out diagram in the manual appears to show it as uniformly parallel sided.

Cheers,

Neil




So far after two days I’m about 180 degrees around although the fit seems to be getting tighter from now and the diff partly interferes with the handle.


Interesting, maybe it hasn't heard of Gravity? So, it must be repacking the **** elsewhere besides the floor unless you have a ginormous Rust hole inside the sleeve.[bigsad]

[S3ute]

Hello again.

I’m not thinking at this stage of the process that the inner locating tube will be terribly corroded. The truck lived most of its life in a semi-arid environment in western NSW.

What I am finding as I poke away at the gap is a loamy mix of dirt and oil. It would likely have had enough moisture ingress in there over the years to form a bonding paste with the help of some surface rust from the tube and housing. The lake of atf/distillate that I irrigated it with for several weeks probably added to the mix as would the penetrating fluid that I have been firing up into the working face over the last couple of days.

It is a laborious process picking away at it chip by chip - needless to say - but I’m getting there. As noted, I’m about halfway around the bottom profile getting in to a depth of about 25mm. It would be nice if it could be cut away using a hacksawing motion, but that’s not the drill. Rather, it is a case of picking away at the face of the cut and occasionally cutting through at the point where the housing diameter reduces a fraction.

The next half is probably going to be a bit tougher because the housing base isn’t perfectly centred to the tube - or vice versa given the way these things were built. The next half is almost touching the welds around the tube base. So, getting the blade in will get progressively harder - plus the front diff housing is progressively sited below the handle of the keyhole saw reducing the potential length of stroke.

I’m actually hoping that once I’ve cleared, say, about three quarters of the way it may respond more positively to some sideways pressure from the drift and sledge - sufficient to release or failing that be more responsive to another round of jacking.

Anyway, the earlier question remains alive - can you reassemble a relay from the top? Or must it be effected from the bottom of the housing?

Cheers,

Neil

[1950landy]

Neil ,
Good to see that you have had progress with removing that steering relay when I called in today .:thumbsup::clap2::BigThumb:
Wayne

[4bee]

WOT! He's actually done it no bull****?:TakeABow::TakeABow::TakeABow:

Break out the Champers, quick. Sounds like it was worse then having a baby. Not that I'd know, you understand.

[JDNSW]

As far as I can tell the steering relay can be assembled from either end.

[1950landy]

WOT! He's actually done it no bull****?:TakeABow::TakeABow::TakeABow:

Break out the Champers, quick. Sounds like it was worse then having a baby. Not that I'd know, you understand.
See is believing :banana::arms: 162874162876162877

[Blknight.aus]

and when you put it back in fit a couple of rubber bands to the top and bottom and fill the cavity with turntable grease.

[4bee]

Unless you are extremly lucky Neil, I bet that is the most satisfying withdrawl you have ever had.:Rolling::TakeABow:

[JDNSW]

Congratulations!

[S3ute]

Congratulations!

Thanks.

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

See is believing :banana::arms: 162874162876162877

Wayne,

Hello again.

Thanks for your support and interest with the ongoing project - appreciated.

I won’t go into gory detail on the extraction but can confirm that it fought all the way. Happily, however, it proved to be non-destructive in terms of collateral damage to either myself or the truck.

Not sure if there is a 9th dan black belt for Land Rover restorations, but having worked over a steering box, removed the chassis bushes with a hacksaw blade and, now, extracted a stuck relay armed with an ageing keyhole saw, lake of penetrating fluid and 80 year old hydraulic jack, feel that I must have passed some sort of threshold.

Now to pull it apart....

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

Unless you are extremly lucky Neil, I bet that is the most satisfying withdrawl you have ever had.:Rolling::TakeABow:

Hello again.

Well, I don’t smoke - but suppose I would have had a cigarette afterwards back in the day.

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

As far as I can tell the steering relay can be assembled from either end.

John,

Hello and thanks.

This was probably more important for an attempt to rebuild a relay in situ rather than in a vice. Happily, the latter’s going to be the operative case.

Cheers,

Neil

[1950landy]

Neil , Have you attempted to pull the relay apart yet? If not make sure you put a hessian bag or old heavy towel over it so that spring dose not get you.
Wayne

[4bee]

I have also read somewhere that it is advised to pull an old sock over it & wire that down tight on the body.

Have never seen one fire off but I can imagine the mess it would make if the guts hit you.[bigsad]

[S3ute]

Neil , Have you attempted to pull the relay apart yet? If not make sure you put a hessian bag or old heavy towel over it so that spring dose not get you.
Wayne

Wayne,

Hello and thanks.

I was out west counting kangaroos all week - so, didn’t make any further progress.

Yes, I’m aware of the need to use some sort of constraining bag when the innards are driven out. I’m planning to have a go at that later in the week when I get back onto the job.

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

I have also read somewhere that it is advised to pull an old sock over it & wire that down tight on the body.

Have never seen one fire off but I can imagine the mess it would make if the guts hit you.[bigsad]

Hello again.

Yes, the folklore on this part of the operation is fairly confronting. Hopefully, it will prove to be overstated.

Cheers,

Neil

[4bee]

Hello again.

Yes, the folklore on this part of the operation is fairly confronting. Hopefully, it will prove to be overstated.

Cheers,

Neil


It does tend to imply that one needs a change of under wear & some new standby DAKs hanging up in the grudge for the just in case event doesn't it.[bigrolf]

[1950landy]

Hello again.

Yes, the folklore on this part of the operation is fairly confronting. Hopefully, it will prove to be overstated.

Cheers,

Neil
I have , just missed my right ear.:woot:

[1950landy]

Neil,
How is that relay going ? have you pulled it apart yet or are you still waiting for the spring to arrive? Don't forget your PPE :spudnikhalfback: I keep checking every day for the success report. [biggrin]
Wayne

[S3ute]

Wayne,

Hi.

The genuine LR spring that was coming from Italy was incorrectly packed - what came was, in fact, a gear lever spring.

The correct relay spring is supposedly on the way.

Cheers,

Neil

[4bee]

Wayne,

Hi.

The genuine LR spring that was coming from Italy was incorrectly packed - what came was, in fact, a gear lever spring.

The correct relay spring is supposedly on the way.

Cheers,

Neil


Well, not much of a difference. Might just do the job at a pinch.[bighmmm]


How in the hell someone couldn't tell the difference beggars belief.

[1950landy]

Would be easer to assemble , you won't need anything to compress it.[biggrin]

[4bee]

Would be easer to assemble , you won't need anything to compress it.[biggrin]

Only a little finger will do.[bigrolf]

[S3ute]

Only a little finger will do.[bigrolf]

That’s about right.

The first thing that I did was compress it one handed.

Anyway, to be fair to the vendor he was genuinely surprised that an error had been made when I pointed out the problem. He was pretty good about arranging for the correct spring to be posted.

It’s not here yet, but the photo that he sent this time was the correct spring. Matter of waiting.

Cheers,

Neik

[1950landy]

Lucky it is not your main mode of transport.[biggrin]

[S3ute]

Lucky it is not your main mode of transport.[biggrin]

Yes, it’s taking a little bit longer than originally planned....

Cheers,

Neil

[russellrovers]

That’s about right.

The first thing that I did was compress it one handed.

Anyway, to be fair to the vendor he was genuinely surprised that an error had been made when I pointed out the problem. He was pretty good about arranging for the correct spring to be posted.

It’s not here yet, but the photo that he sent this time was the correct spring. Matter of waiting.

Cheers,

Neikyou should ohf gone to mr at redcliff jim

[S3ute]

you should ohf gone to mr at redcliff jim

Hello from Somerset Dam - here for a bit of Covid-less R&R.

I have bought a fair bit of kit from MR over the years and don’t have any complaints of note. However, in this instance they didn’t have exactly what I was after whereas the Italian fellow did. Same applies to all the other local sources that I have dealt with - nowadays unless it’s old stock that has been sitting there for years it’s nearly all Britpart or Bearmach and the differences are getting less evident.

Anyway, going Italian was the correct decision but, in this particular case, happened to have a poor initial outcome. Previous dealing with the same crew had been very good and once the correct part arrives, hopefully, will vindicate the original decision.

Cheers,

Neil

[4bee]

Hello from Somerset Dam - here for a bit of Covid-less R&R.

I have bought a fair bit of kit from MR over the years and don’t have any complaints of note. However, in this instance they didn’t have exactly what I was after whereas the Italian fellow did. Same applies to all the other local sources that I have dealt with - nowadays unless it’s old stock that has been sitting there for years it’s nearly all Britpart or Bearmach and the differences are getting less evident.

Anyway, going Italian was the correct decision but, in this particular case, happened to have a poor initial outcome. Previous dealing with the same crew had been very good and once the correct part arrives, hopefully, will vindicate the original decision.

Cheers,

Neil


Interesting



"Britpart or Bearmach and the differences are getting less evident."


Are you saying ****part quality is improving or Bearmach is going downhill?

[S3ute]

Interesting



"Britpart or Bearmach and the differences are getting less evident."


Are you saying ****part quality is improving or Bearmach is going downhill?

Hello again from Somerset Dam.

I’ll leave that quality judgement for others to argue over.....

With respect to the blue box packets - I have some dim memory about leopards and spots.

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

Hello again from Sherwood.

Been travelling for a few weeks and not given much attention to the task at hand - until now.

I cleaned up the outside of the relay with a wire wheel and opened up the “drains” and stood it vertically to see what comes out. If nothing else, presumably some of the litre or so of the atf-distillate mix that I poured in from the top with an aim of freeing the innards.

Well, the quotation marks are appropriate in this instance because, after 72 hours, not a skerrick of any liquid substance has emerged. So, I’m puzzled as to what I’ll find when I gut it.

Now, that’s the next issue. Anecdote has it that I’ll be handling something akin to either a Mills bomb or Titan missile once the end caps are removed.

So my question of those with actual defusing experience is “how extreme a reaction will the spring give when the guts are pressed downwards below the point at which the lower tufnols are just holding it compressed”?

I’m aware that best practice (for survivors) is to wrap the butt end in a heavy bag or some such which I don’t happen to have. I’m thinking of a doubled over Army blanket and a garbage can to smother the reaction and collect the spring, washers, bushes etc.

Is that precaution enough?

If you’ve done it and lived - call me:

0419715234

Cheers,

Neil

[4bee]

Hello again from Sherwood.

Been travelling for a few weeks and not given much attention to the task at hand - until now.

I cleaned up the outside of the relay with a wire wheel and opened up the “drains” and stood it vertically to see what comes out. If nothing else, presumably some of the litre or so of the atf-distillate mix that I poured in from the top with an aim of freeing the innards.

Well, the quotation marks are appropriate in this instance because, after 72 hours, not a skerrick of any liquid substance has emerged. So, I’m puzzled as to what I’ll find when I gut it.

Now, that’s the next issue. Anecdote has it that I’ll be handling something akin to either a Mills bomb or Titan missile once the end caps are removed.

So my question of those with actual defusing experience is “how extreme a reaction will the spring give when the guts are pressed downwards below the point at which the lower tufnols are just holding it compressed”?

I’m aware that best practice (for survivors) is to wrap the butt end in a heavy bag or some such which I don’t happen to have. I’m thinking of a doubled over Army blanket and a garbage can to smother the reaction and collect the spring, washers, bushes etc.

Is that precaution enough?

If you’ve done it and lived - call me:

0419715234

Cheers,

Neil

Well Neil, one thing is for sure. If the world suddenly jumps to 15* off it's axis we will know it's out.

Sorry can't help with it's Explosive capabilities, when I "wanted" to change mine I was offered a 109 scrapper with a good one so I was able to swap it over with no dramas or hysterics. Still good today.


Bon Chance

[S3ute]

Hello again from Sherwood.

No doubt the kinetic potential of these things might be a bit overstated. However, recalling those black and white range safety films from the 50’s that were a prelude to any live firing day at Singleton, I’m disinclined to not at least try to understand what I’m playing with.

Hopefully, more of a double happy than a tuppenny bunger. Or worse....

Cheers,

Neil

[4bee]

Hello again from Sherwood.

No doubt the kinetic potential of these things might be a bit overstated. However, recalling those black and white range safety films from the 50’s that were a prelude to any live firing day at Singleton, I’m disinclined to not at least try to understand what I’m playing with.

Hopefully, more of a double happy than a tuppenny bunger. Or worse....

Cheers,

Neil


Neil mate, it is only a compressed spring. What could possibly go wrong?:BigCry::Rolling:

[S3ute]

Neil mate, it is only a compressed spring. What could possibly go wrong?:BigCry::Rolling:

See the earlier reference to Mills bomb.....

Cheers,

Neil

[4bee]

See the earlier reference to Mills bomb.....

Cheers,

Neil


If you are **** scared why not ask your neighbour to do it? Or better yet, so that you are not liable if the brown stuff hits the whirly thing try & get him to volunteer in a sneaky way. You know, get him to take pity on you for being a wuss.

Then shirley he'd be responsible for blasting his own chimney pot to pieces.:wallbash::Rolling:

[S3ute]

Hello again from Sherwood.

Happy to report that claims of my demise have been seriously exaggerated.

Not even a pop....

I removed the lower end cap as per the recommended procedure and then cloaked the end in a doubled over Army blanket held in place with a large hose clamp. Tap, tap, tapped the shaft with a heavy hammer and it released without much ceremony.

The splined shaft, tufnols, thrust and spacer washers don’t look too bad - nor the spring itself, although it is a bit shorter than the replacement. I’ll measure it later to see if it is still within the limits suggested by the workshop manual.

On observation, the end seals aren’t too flash but that’s not to say they wouldn’t still hold back lubricant. That’s untested as the relay didn’t seem to have a great deal of oil in it. There was some small amount of grease on the washers - possibly copper grease from an installation at some time. The PO might have done that at some time, but I had the impression that it hadn’t had much attention from the time the truck was built.

Re the lubricant - there was a small amount in the casing. Whether it had been dry prior to trying to free it with the atf/distillate mix or had some oil left is unclear. The shaft had jammed tight before I started messing around with it and it was still fairly tight after I ‘freed’ it up. Neither the conical surfaces of the shaft or the tufnols appear to be worn much and there is no obvious pitting on the surfaces. So, it obviously doesn’t take much to seize them.

Anyway, I’ll take a better look in due course before proceeding to reassemble the relay.

Friday - sundowners later. Yippee.

Another rite of passage down - albeit a quiet one.

Cheers,

Neil

[4bee]

Hello again from Sherwood.

Happy to report that claims of my demise have been seriously exaggerated.

Not even a pop....

I removed the lower end cap as per the recommended procedure and then cloaked the end in a doubled over Army blanket held in place with a large hose clamp. Tap, tap, tapped the shaft with a heavy hammer and it released without much ceremony.

The splined shaft, tufnols, thrust and spacer washers don’t look too bad - nor the spring itself, although it is a bit shorter than the replacement. I’ll measure it later to see if it is still within the limits suggested by the workshop manual.

On observation, the end seals aren’t too flash but that’s not to say they wouldn’t still hold back lubricant. That’s untested as the relay didn’t seem to have a great deal of oil in it. There was some small amount of grease on the washers - possibly copper grease from an installation at some time. The PO might have done that at some time, but I had the impression that it hadn’t had much attention from the time the truck was built.

Re the lubricant - there was a small amount in the casing. Whether it had been dry prior to trying to free it with the atf/distillate mix or had some oil left is unclear. The shaft had jammed tight before I started messing around with it and it was still fairly tight after I ‘freed’ it up. Neither the conical surfaces of the shaft or the tufnols appear to be worn much and there is no obvious pitting on the surfaces. So, it obviously doesn’t take much to seize them.

Anyway, I’ll take a better look in due course before proceeding to reassemble the relay.

Friday - sundowners later. Yippee.

Another rite of passage down - albeit a quiet one.

Cheers,

Neil

You sound quite disappointed now the excitement is over.[bigsad] Never mind Neil, summat else will bob up sometime to test you once again.

It was recommended by someone years ago that you could screw a grease nipple in it & keep it pumped with grease of some sort. Possibly Semi Fluid 00

[S3ute]

You sound quite disappointed now the excitement is over.[bigsad] Never mind Neil, summat else will bob up sometime to test you once again. 00

Hello again from Sherwood.

Not sure if there is a black Dan rating for Land Rover restoration but having successfully achieved three of the famed “dirty five” tasks* without much damage to personal appendages - chassis bushes, relay from chassis and relay innards - you’d hope that there might be some sort of noble recognition or sense of personal elation to be had.

In the first two cases it required considerable patience and perseverance but nothing approaching grit or valour. In the last it just happened without so much as an alarum.

Anyway, happy to be moving ahead.

Cheers,

Neil

* the third and fourth are reputedly replacing the rear bearing seal and synchro springs in situ. Not to say that neither won’t emerge in due course.

[4bee]

Hello again from Sherwood.

Not sure if there is a black Dan rating for Land Rover restoration but having successfully achieved three of the famed “dirty five” tasks* without much damage to personal appendages - chassis bushes, relay from chassis and relay innards - you’d hope that there might be some sort of noble recognition or sense of personal elation to be had.

In the first two cases it required considerable patience and perseverance but nothing approaching grit or valour. In the last it just happened without so much as an alarum.

Anyway, happy to be moving ahead.

Cheers,

Neil

* the third and fourth are reputedly replacing the rear bearing seal and synchro springs in situ. Not to say that neither won’t emerge in due course.



I think they'll be a doddle, sort of a piece of cake stuff when you get around to it.

[S3ute]

I think they'll be a doddle, sort of a piece of cake stuff when you get around to it.

One lives in hope.

Cheers,

Neil

[1950landy]

Neil,
You just need to bite the bullet , or in your case SPRING. Just undo those bolts & let it fly.:spudnikhalfback:
JUST A THOUGHT .You could make up a board with two blocks of wood screwed to the board with the gap the same width as the shaft or a bit wider , secure the housing to the board then undo the screws. That way the spring can only expand as far as the blocks, then the will be less tension on the spring.
Wayne[bighmmm]

[S3ute]

Wayne,

Hello again.

You’re about three posts too late.

I gutted the relay yesterday morning without any undue excitement. It simply came out without much force into the old blanket that I had shrouded around the base.

I was never really afraid to do it - just wanted to check with anyone who had actually stripped one to see how big a reaction they got from the spring. Again, “everyone knows” they explode but it’s hard to find someone who has experienced it.

Cheers,

Neil

[1950landy]

So when you got it apart did you find any reason for the steering being tight

[S3ute]

So when you got it apart did you find any reason for the steering being tight

Wayne,

Hello again.

I’m still not entirely sure - the lower check washer and tufnols look like they have been dry and the seal on the lower cover plate wasn’t in the best of condition. The inner shaft, spring, tufnols and thrust washers don’t look too bad and the inner walls of the housing isn’t showing much sign of scoring. The uncompressed spring is a little shorter than the new spring, but I haven’t yet measured it to see whether it is still within the limit suggested by the workshop manual.

There was a small amount of oily fluid inside the housing, but I had been injecting a fair bit of the atf/distillate mix through the top holes in the weeks that I was trying to free it up. If even half that mix had actually penetrated past the top tufnols it should have been full.

So, my thoughts for now are that it lost its sealing capacity at some time, went dry and siezed. Also, that the atf/distillate mix barely penetrated past the top washer and what did was probably assisted by the action of turning the shaft back and forth with a large piece of pipe over the upper arm.

Like many an old farm truck, I’d guess that the relay was likely never checked or serviced from the time that it was rolled off the assembly line.

Cheers,

Neil

[1950landy]

164775 Neil, If you have this type of relay shaft were you fill with oil through the hole in the top of the shaft you can use the hole arrowed with a pin through it to wind the spring down with a hose clamp around the bottom bush then once wound down fit & clamp the top bush. This is the type I have in my relay but yours being a S3 it may be different.

[S3ute]

164775 Neil, If you have this type of relay shaft were you fill with oil through the hole in the top of the shaft you can use the hole arrowed with a pin through it to wind the spring down with a hose clamp around the bottom bush then once wound down fit & clamp the top bush. This is the type I have in my relay but yours being a S3 it may be different.

Wayne,

Hello again.

Thanks.

The relay from my truck is the later type with the solid inner shaft. Unless I can borrow or fabricate something akin to the proper service tool - reassembling it will require the more complicated approach of building removable spring holders and deploying multiple clamps to hold the compressed spring and tufnols in place while they are being driven into the housing.

Again, I have all of the parts, and a pretty good idea of the procedure required, but have yet to collect the necessary bibs and bobs to put it into practice.

Cheers,

Neil

[S3ute]

According to my manual, any of the four bolt holes can be used.

Hello from Sherwood.

Belated response - that is correct. All four bolt holes access an inner cavity ring near the top of the housing. Visible in this photo:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50369511871_5a02db7ce6_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jJYV2R)Relay_28 (https://flic.kr/p/2jJYV2R) by Neil Mac (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156618685@N07/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50368814533_b5b2afeded_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jJVkJM)Relay_29 (https://flic.kr/p/2jJVkJM) by Neil Mac (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156618685@N07/), on Flickr

While on the topic, the bore isn't badly scored but I seem to recall someone mentioning running a brake hone through it - is that correct?

Cheers,

Neil

[Blknight.aus]

Hello from Sherwood.

Belated response - that is correct. All four bolt holes access an inner cavity ring near the top of the housing. Visible in this photo:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50369511871_5a02db7ce6_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jJYV2R)Relay_28 (https://flic.kr/p/2jJYV2R) by Neil Mac (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156618685@N07/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50368814533_b5b2afeded_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jJVkJM)Relay_29 (https://flic.kr/p/2jJVkJM) by Neil Mac (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156618685@N07/), on Flickr

While on the topic, the bore isn't badly scored but I seem to recall someone mentioning running a brake hone through it - is that correct?

Cheers,

Neil

that or a bottle brush hone, just enough to remove any surface rusting/ridging

[S3ute]

that or a bottle brush hone, just enough to remove any surface rusting/ridging

Thanks.

Appreciated.

Cheers,

Neil