Holden axed in Aussie.

[Pickles2]

The end has come, read about it in the media!

[loanrangie]

Here we go again [bighmmm].

[BradC]

Wow. I'm not surprised. Saddened a little bit.

I was only chatting to my 98 year old grandfather yesterday about some of the work he did as a panel beater at the Holden plant in Mosman Park after the war. He'll be a bit saddened today also.

[grey_ghost]

That didn't take long... Lol [biggrin]

[101RRS]

Just watching the interview with GM execs on TV - not sure but they seem to indicate that not only will the Holden brand go but GM is also quitting as they say they will no longer make RHD vehicles - they indicate they will still send "speciality" vehicles (like the Corvette) into Australia - produced through their speciality plant in NZ and maybe still through HSV.

So not only does Holden go but it would seem GM in Australia also goes.

Garry

[BradC]

Now we just wait for Kogan to pick up the name and start selling new made-in-China "Holdens".

Watching the press conference gives me the impression the "execs" were almost blindsided by the decision. They are scrabbling to answer any questions on future plans with anything other than "the details still have to be worked out" and the only positive statement is "we will continue to honour our contractual commitments and support our product for 'at least' 10 years".

It all seems very rushed.

[Redback]

Funny stuff:rolleyes:

[1950landy]

Looks like GM is pulling out as well saying they are no longer going to build cars for Australian roads.

[travelrover]

This will make the Supercars interesting!

[1950landy]

Looks like GM is pulling out as well saying they are no longer going to build cars for Australian roads.

They are also pulling out of all other R/H drive markets.

[Pickles2]

Now we just wait for Kogan to pick up the name and start selling new made-in-China "Holdens".

Watching the press conference gives me the impression the "execs" were almost blindsided by the decision. They are scrabbling to answer any questions on future plans with anything other than "the details still have to be worked out" and the only positive statement is "we will continue to honour our contractual commitments and support our product for 'at least' 10 years".

It all seems very rushed.
They would definitely have been "blindsided",....All decisions concerning Holden have been made by GM U.S. for many years.
Pickles.

[scarry]

This will make the Supercars interesting!

Yes it will be one brand racing itself......[bighmmm]

[martnH]

These American people
Took our tax money and just left.

We should never allow foreign ownership of Aussie companies such as Holden

[Eevo]

These American cun s
Took our tax money and just left.

We should never allow foreign ownership of Aussie companies such as Holden


aust needs foreign investment otherwise we'll be a 3rd world country.

[kelvo]

They are also pulling out of all other R/H drive markets.
I have not seen any mention of them (GM - Vauxhall) pulling out of the UK market.

[travelrover]

These American people
Took our tax money and just left.

We should never allow foreign ownership of Aussie companies such as Holden

$90 million a year in gov subsidies at one point which went straight off shore as their ‘profit’

[incisor]

$90 million a year in gov subsidies at one point which went straight off shore as their ‘profit’

but kept aussies employed and fed $230+ million back into the economy ...

seems no one gave a ****...

[Eevo]

so is my holden with 10x more now that holdens are gone?

[Rok_Dr]

I have not seen any mention of them (GM - Vauxhall) pulling out of the UK market.

Vauxhall is owned by Peugeot/Citroen now.

Maybe GM will sell the brand to them?

cheers

Steve

[justinc]

There hasn't been a real holden here since the 80s...

[JDNSW]

This has been inevitable from the start, once protection and subsidies disappeared. This was shown when Hartnett, the long term head of Holden, who had pushed for local manufacture for years, and had planned and implemented the first Holden car, was replaced (because he was too Australian*) by a man from head office before the first car was produced in 1948.

There might have been a case for continued support if there had ever been a viable Australian manufacturer.


*Hartnett was English, but had a stellar career with GM in Singapore, UK and Scandinavia before being sent to Adelaide in the early thirties to either save or shut down the Holden body works, part owned by GM. As well as running Holden from then, he was a major player in setting up the manufacture of munitions and war equipment in Australia during the war. After he quit GM rather than accept a transfer to Detroit, he tried to build his own car, a Gregoire design, far more modern then the Holden being built at Fisherman's Bend, but was effectively blocked by the Federal Government and a broken contract by PMC who had contracted to press body panels.

[Barraman]

Holden died the day they stopped making the SS !

[p38arover]

John Cadogan predicted this not long back.

[Tins]

This will make the Supercars interesting!

What have Supercars got to do with it?? They've been a silhouette class for decades. Nothing on them that has any connection with the 'real' cars.

[pop058]

snip

We should never allow foreign ownership of Aussie companies such as Holden

Since when was Holden ever owned by Australia ??

[pop058]

There hasn't been a real holden here since the 80s...

around 78 IMHO

[1950landy]

This has been inevitable from the start, once protection and subsidies disappeared. This was shown when Hartnett, the long term head of Holden, who had pushed for local manufacture for years, and had planned and implemented the first Holden car, was replaced (because he was too Australian*) by a man from head office before the first car was produced in 1948.

There might have been a case for continued support if there had ever been a viable Australian manufacturer.


*Hartnett was English, but had a stellar career with GM in Singapore, UK and Scandinavia before being sent to Adelaide in the early thirties to either save or shut down the Holden body works, part owned by GM. As well as running Holden from then, he was a major player in setting up the manufacture of munitions and war equipment in Australia during the war. After he quit GM rather than accept a transfer to Detroit, he tried to build his own car, a Gregoire design, far more modern then the Holden being built at Fisherman's Bend, but was effectively blocked by the Federal Government and a broken contract by PMC who had contracted to press body panels.
Hartnett in his book said he was offered the VW factory after the war to start an all Australian car but knocked it back , he did not Australians would buy a rear engine air cooled car . Said it was the biggest mistake he ever made. [bighmmm]

[justinc]

around 78 IMHO

I think my 5.0 WB holden ute would've just scraped through in 1983... but yes, we've been without a decent local vehicle since forever....😣

[Tins]

These American people
Took our tax money and just left.

We should never allow foreign ownership of Aussie companies such as Holden

Holden ( the car company ) was always foreign owned. In fact Holdens became a subsidiary of GM in 1931, long before they started to build cars of their own. All Holdens, from the 48/215 up to the Torana ( based on the British Vauxhall Viva ) and the VB Commodore ( Opel Rekord from Germany ) were based on US cars, with the very notable exception of the Monaro, but that was merely a styling exercise.

People are so blinkered on this topic. Holden cars would NEVER had existed without GM. This stuff is in the public domain. Why don't people learn it? Holden didn't even produce the first cars here. Joe Lyons wanted an Aussie car, but WWII got in the way, but nobody remembers the Ford Coupé utility of 1934. Australian cars go back to 1896.

Holdens was a coachbuilder. GM bought them, as i stated above, in 1931. GM then imported running chassis and Holdens built bodies for them . This was standard practice in those days. Coachbuilding companies were all over, and Holdens was merely one of them. The 48/215 was a political thing, released in post WWII austerity, a sort of political jingoism.

Holden was no more Australian than Chrysler ( remember the Valiant? ), Ford ( longest continuous badge here by miles in the Falcon ), Mitsubishi ( Magna and 380 {OK, they came out of Chrysler }), Toyota ( plant in Altona made mostly Camrys ), Lightburn ( heard of them... more Aussie than any of the above ), Hartnett ( Ditto ). And there are more. Don't hear anyone crying for them, and yet we get people sooking about the least Aussie of all of them. GM did nothing for Australia when they knew they were folding. they just pulled up stumps. Some Aussie. Ford at least has kept ALL Asia Pacific development HERE, at Broadmeadows. Sure, the cars aren't built here, but there are nearly 2000 jobs still here. Ford knew the value of the engineering they had here, maybe because the always sent folk here to learn. So, the Focus for all of the AP region, the Ranger, the Everest, the Trend.... etc, have Aussie DNA. They know that building cars here doesn't work ( so too do GM and Toyota as it happens ) but they know we have some of the best engineering talent going around and they don't want to lose it.

Reading all that, I can see that people might think I'm a Ford fanboy. Well, i like the Fords i have owned, but I'd prefer a Ferrari. But I am not a fanboy of anything, unless it's LR. Fighting over Mac vs PC, iPhone vs Android, VHS vs Beta is utterly pointless. Oh, there was a point to the VHS thing though.

Anyway, Holden has gone. Why was anyone surprised? GM chose to dump the market entirely. They are seriously struggling at home. Folk should research GM's unfunded healthcare liabilities. GM has very little time left to live. Obama gave GM $US 11.2 BILLION to stave off bankruptcy, and it probably hasn't worked. Trump won't make the same mistake.

For GM, Holden is, and always was, a drop in the bucket. There is no future in building cars in his country, and they all know it. GM and Toyota just dumped us, and yet people still buy Toyotas. Go figure.

Back on point. GENERAL MOTORS HOLDEN was NEVER AUSTRALIAN. The marketing that makes people think they were equals that of MacDonalds convincing people they sell food.

[3toes]

In the run up to the Commodore ending production there was a lot of speculation in the trade press both in Europe and the USA about the future of the Holden name. Most thought it would be retired as without the local car it did not make sense might even have negative connections with buyers. Most thought the name would be replace with Chev as this was a brand GM was pushing globally.

Opel and Vauxhall’s were Europeanised versions of the cars designed in Korea. This added a layer of cost to the cars which they could not recoup. So sold the business with an agreement for supply of products for GM outside Europe for a limited time.

Peugeot has been moving the legacy GM products to their own platforms as quickly as they can. Once changed over no more for GM. Peugeot has made the business profitable by removing the design step and associated employees.

If GM had not taken the bung from the German government and closed Opel Vauxhall to concentrate on the Chev product in Europe it might be different today. Chev and Opel Vauxhall had equal market share at the time and GM was going to just keep the Chev brand and close Opel Vauxhall. This would have been a blow for German engineering and jobs hence the offer which changed the decision.

I do see so many similarities here between what GM is doing today and Chrysler in the eighties when they closed all non US operation to concentrate on the core home market as this was where the profit was. Let’s hope this one goes better than we saw with Chrysler

[Homestar]

Good riddance.

[Tins]

I do see so many similarities here between what GM is doing today and Chrysler in the eighties when they closed all non US operation to concentrate on the core home market as this was where the profit was. Let’s hope this one goes better than we saw with Chrysler

GM today does not have to deal with John Button, so of course there are few similarities, here in Oz. Globally Chrysler was in a far superior financial position then than GM is now ( of course things changed... ). GM has been bankrupt for years, and it's only a matter of time. GM is far more widely spread than Chrysler was. GM's best case wold be if a Korean or Chinese entity bought them out. Irony much? Chrysler would have loved a buy out from Korea.

The world has changed, as it does. 20 years ago Japan ruled the roost. How many cars do they build now, globally? Sure, the brands are still huge, but the cars are built, apart from a select few, anywhere but Japan. The cycle will turn again.

[Tins]

In the run up to the Commodore ending production there was a lot of speculation in the trade press both in Europe and the USA about the future of the Holden name. Most thought it would be retired as without the local car it did not make sense might even have negative connections with buyers.

This was one of the biggest mistakes they made, IMV. The Commodore name meant something, FWIWW, and Holden bastardised it by applying it to an Opel! Funny, the first Commodore WAS an Opel, without the good bits. Ford was smart enough to retire the Falcon name, and didn't pretend.

[Tins]

Regardless, it's a sad day. Australia once built cars. Towards the end they were good cars. Maybe we were punching above our weight, but we had some good times. RIP Falcon and Commodore.

[Tins]

Let's see if this works.. if it does, apologies to the great Mark Knight. If it doesn't, apologies to you all.

158073

[3toes]

The car market is changing and moving to electric for now battery then hydrogen powered. The government needs to accept this new reality and help local factories to enter the market while it is in a state of flux and new players can win.

In Germany the post office stopped ordering vans from VW as they realised all the parts to make vehicles were now produced by second and third level players with the manufacturers buying in what they wanted for a particular car. They set up an assembly line for their own design electric vans. Savings were significant. If they can do it there is at the moment plenty of room for imaginative players to build volume at the expense of the established legacy manufacturers.

This window will close and the opportunity lost if support is not provided to encourage entry. Support should go to local companies not the local branch of a foreign company and so build an industrial base which and this is the key is export focused not just looking at the local market.

[Vern]

The car market is changing and moving to electric for now battery then hydrogen powered. The government needs to accept this new reality and help local factories to enter the market while it is in a state of flux and new players can win.

In Germany the post office stopped ordering vans from VW as they realised all the parts to make vehicles were now produced by second and third level players with the manufacturers buying in what they wanted for a particular car. They set up an assembly line for their own design electric vans. Savings were significant. If they can do it there is at the moment plenty of room for imaginative players to build volume at the expense of the established legacy manufacturers.

This window will close and the opportunity lost if support is not provided to encourage entry. Support should go to local companies not the local branch of a foreign company and so build an industrial base which and this is the key is export focused not just looking at the local market.Wasn't the government keeping holden afloat anyway??

[1950landy]

If all manufactures follow GM's lead we will all be driving L/H drive cars in the future . [bigsad]

[incisor]

And they'll do it on a tank and a half of juice :p
Let's see if this works.. if it does, apologies to the great Mark Knight. If it doesn't, apologies to you all.

158073

[101 Ron]

Holden brand is dead because.
They treated a lot of customers with contempt.
They tried to sell a lot of vehicles which the Australian market no longer wanted.
They sold vehicles like a Holden Viva( a 100,000 km just out of warranty throw away car)( if it made it though warranty without a lot of trouble)...………….and quickly tried to dis own the vehicle and a lot of the other ex Daewoo GM take over vehicles were not much better.
I remember my mother buying a Rodeo 4wd ute......the 4wd system failed during warranty.
Because she was 70 years old, they said why do want 4wd anyhow ????( they treated her poorly and don't believe the vehicle had a problem)
She owned a property which needed 4wd access at the time.
The same vehicle had a fuel pump fail...….the dealer wanted to charge thousands as they said the rear body tub had to be removed and lifted off to access the fuel tank.
I had a quick look...…..the tank dropped out though the bottom and was held it with one strap.....nice one Holden...……...taking advantage of a little old lady again ?????

Just a small part of people I have seen dealing with Holden and why they are gone.

Then add the promise to produce a new aussie made vehicle to keep Aussie jobs for the next 10 years using Government assistance, but instead sending that money straight over seas into a American bank account ,and not helping Aussie jobs at all , but American ones.
The pollies need to have their arses kicked to throw money to Holden without getting proof or concessions or smaller amounts of money over longer periods to ensure Holden was doing what was promised.

People want.

value for money
good service and dealer experience.
good parts back up.
a product which long lasting that suits local conditions.

If the above was done ….Holden would own the market...…...they failed in most of the above.

[4bee]

Just watching the interview with GM execs on TV - not sure but they seem to indicate that not only will the Holden brand go but GM is also quitting as they say they will no longer make RHD vehicles - they indicate they will still send "speciality" vehicles (like the Corvette) into Australia - produced through their speciality plant in NZ and maybe still through HSV.

So not only does Holden go but it would seem GM in Australia also goes.

Garry

So they will use the Australian Market when it suits THEM? ****ing two faced thieves

[Saitch]

This was one of the biggest mistakes they made, IMV. The Commodore name meant something, FWIWW, and Holden bastardised it by applying it to an Opel! Funny, the first Commodore WAS an Opel, without the good bits. Ford was smart enough to retire the Falcon name, and didn't pretend.

The Falcon was Falcon in name only previously, too. An early 'World Car' attempt, perhaps? The European built Granada. (1985 model) Had a run from '71 to '94.

158078

[DiscoMick]

This was inevitable once the government manufacturing innovation funding scheme, which cost about $500m annually, was axed, costing about 100,000 jobs, mostly in suppliers, by one estimate.
It had underpinned the business case for making vehicles here such as the Ford Territory, Holden Cruze and Camry hybrid.

Changing market trends, such as the decline of demand for large sedans and the rise of utes, were also factors.
I wonder if Ford might have assembled the Ranger here, since it was designed here, if that government innovation support had continued. If any vehicle type could be viable to make here it's utes, given the large domestic demand. And could Toyota's hybrid packages have been made here?

Every country supports it's vehicle manufacturing industry, including the Germans, Japanese, French, Thais and Koreans. The UK Government has just put a big grant into JLR to help it increase its R and D in the UK. The US nationalised GM and Chrysler to save them from collapse during the GFC and then sold them back to investors.
Now the vehicle industry is going electric, but what role will we play in that revolution - none?
At the least we should be using our competitive advantage in resources and cheap renewable electricity to manufacture lithium and other batteries here for export, I think.

[DiscoMick]

Holden is now a symbol of an increasingly precarious economy for workers

Holden is now a symbol of an increasingly precarious economy for workers | Royce Kurmelovs | Opinion | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/18/holden-is-now-a-symbol-of-an-increasingly-precarious-economy-for-workers?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Tombie]

What competitive advantage in resources and cheap renewable energy?

We arent competitive in renewables - they can not run the processing plants required and are susidised heavily.
We arent competitive in manufacturing - our costs and wages demands are multitudes of those overseas.
Mining resources arent green - by factors - Lithium mining is very intensive, as is the refining.

People on here keep talking about market protection, subsidies etc... well if we did that on all things here everyone would complain again.

We had **** cars, sold to sucker public, because the government protected our market and it made imports non-viable or the realm of the wealthy.
We had generic products made here whilst the wealthy imported German etc products.

And now we have LR owners etc importing parts from UK to save a few Quid - this shuts down local business, who need a mark up to cover oeprating costs...


Countries should "Stick to their knitting" - we dont have the market to MAKE - we have the innovation to DESIGN

[bob10]

Basically , a business struggling to survive didn't fit with GM's future. It was kept going with tariff barriers, but as tariffs whittled away, and free trade deals became more common, and the Australian new passenger vehicle market fragmented into many niches, Holden's profitability faded. After Government stopped further investment , and the factory at Elizabeth closed, [taking the locally developed and built Commodore with it] it was just a matter of time. Also, under GM boss Mary Barra, GM is focussing on North America and China markets. GM sold off it's OPEL/Vauxhall business in 2017, the year Elizabeth closed. Vauxhall was GM's brand in the UK. Holden could cherry pick from the Opel/Vauxhall range , mix in some Korean built vehicles, and top it off with the Commodore.

Vauxhalls absence dried up Holden's supply, forcing it to source from GM's shrinking global market, which was set up for left hand drive. Right hand drive business cases were too hard to build. I guess the ultimate insult is that GM will be anointing a business to convert left hand drive Chevrolet trucks , and other selected North American models locally to right hand drive. Just how long will it be before we are called the Argentina of the South Pacific.

[loanrangie]

Since when was Holden ever owned by Australia ??

Back when they were just body builders/coach works.

[Pickles2]

An important point in all of this is that Aussie is the ONLY country of its population size in the world that was manufacturing a car solely for its own population. GM Detroit actively discouraged many attempts by Holden to export, so here we are in a country that has 70 brands with multiple models on sale here (with NO import tariffs), many produced in countries with far lower costs,...How was Holden ever going to survive?
Pickles.

[101RRS]

I guess the ultimate insult is that GM will be anointing a business to convert left hand drive Chevrolet trucks , and other selected North American models locally to right hand drive. Just how long will it be before we are called the Argentina of the South Pacific.

HSV already has that contract with GM and has been doing it for a while. GM has indicated that is likely to continue for "specialist" models (General Motor Specialty Vehicles) such as the trucks, Camaro and the new Corvette.

What hasn't been discussed is what happens with the ownership of HSV. I am not sure but I believe HSV is technically a different company to Holden with Holden being a part owner - I assume GM will just take over that part of ownership that Holden had, but HSV has not really come up in the media releases at this stage.

[JDNSW]

An important point in all of this is that Aussie is the ONLY country of its population size in the world that was manufacturing a car solely for its own population. GM Detroit actively discouraged many attempts by Holden to export, so here we are in a country that has 70 brands with multiple models on sale here (with NO import tariffs), many produced in countries with far lower costs,...How was Holden ever going to survive?
Pickles.

Correct. Building cars in Australia has been tried by multiple companies since the 1890s, and all of them have rapidly realised that it impossible tobuild them here anywhere near as cheap as you can import them, unless you get either subsidy or protection or both.

The ban on importing complete cars in 1914 gave the body coachbuilding industry a strong incentive to change from horsedrawn vehicles to car bodies. And some of these companies prospered as motoring started to boom in the 1920s, Holden among them. Seeking to gain an advantage for their imported chassis, and with Ford having set up their own assembly plant in Victoria, GM pumped capital into Holden starting in the mid twenties. With the start of the Great Depression in 1929, Holden was overcapitalised, and GM took control.

Manufacturing was vastly expanded leading up to and during WW2, with Australia manufacturing a wide range of things that had not been done here before, at least in quantity, from military radios, to artillery, to tanks, to aircraft and engines, and obscure but key items such as optical glass and precision measuring equipment. And Holden was involved in a lot of this with the military production being overseen by the head of Holden.

At the end of the war, the Government was faced with a lot of manufacturing industry, making products for which demand had just largely ceased. And a lot of soldiers returning to civilian life, and looking for work. The Government decided that building cars was what was needed, and found GM came closest to doing what the government wanted, to build complete cars here. The other major manufacturers, including Ford and the British companies declined. (Europe needed to rebuild their own manufacturing, and besides, they didn't speak English!) GM was talked into it with the help of the highly esteemed GM (British but had adopted Australia), and a very substantial cash "bribe" from the government.

But GM insisted on the use of a small Chevrolet that had been intended to be launched in 1943, but had been put on the shelf, and was now too small for the US market, instead of the proposed car already designed by Holden.

For roughly the next thirty years the car industry (and manufacturing generally) were heavily protected in the name of jobs. Those parts of the economy (such as primary production) who were disadvantaged by this protection were mollified by various subsidies and special allowances.

All very well, except that by the 1970s, it was becoming apparent that Australians were putting up with expensive, outdated, manufactured goods, especially cars. And as communications improved, the voters were beginning to realise this.

And Japan had started to export cars, which were surprisingly good, and cheap in spite of the protection. Various schemes were tried to get them manufactured in Australia with varying success.

And the voters were also realising that the tariffs meant that car buyers were paying very large amounts as a subsidy to both the relatively small number of workers in the motor industry and the owners of the car companies in Detroit, Tokyo and London (and to a lesser extent in Paris and Bonn).

As a result, a plan was put in place in the mid 80s to gradually reduce protection - and at this stage the end of local manufacture was assured. It was delayed for a surprisingly long time, mainly be ever increasing subsidies to manufacturers, mainly to Holden, although with GM not allowing Holden to become an export centre, this had little justification.

As others have pointed out, the main reason this has meant the end of Holden even as an import (compare Ford) is simply because GM is broke.

Despite all the talk of all the money made by car companies, it needs to be realised that building cars is very capital intensive, is difficult, and is very risky. And almost all car companies throughout motoring history have operated at a loss for most of their history, with most companies lurching from one financial crisis to the next, saved at the post by either a white knight (who is about to lose a fortune) or a government lifeline. Through the years the necessary scale of car making has increased, particularly as the red tape has increased. To meet all the statutory requirements and be at least as good as your competitors, requires so much money to be put into design, tooling and development that the major cost of manufacturing is the design cost. Until this cost can be divided by a large number of units, the cost per unit is prohibitive. This is the fundamental reason why car manufacturing in Australia is not really feasible.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, and it's going to get more difficult because of the enormous investment required to transition to EVs over the next decade.
Tesla is way ahead on that curve, being now worth more than all the major US car companies combined, and the old companies are playing catch up.
Rationalisation could result in maybe four or five EV manufacturers worldwide, one based in Japan, one plus Tesla in the US and maybe 2 in Europe, including JLR as a division of Peugeot - Renault - Nissan and a merger of the Germans into Mercedes- BMW- Audi- VW -Porsche.
It's too late for us, the best we could hope for is to supply some components.
Holden is history.

[scarry]

Yes, and it's going to get more difficult because of the enormous investment required to transition to EVs over the next decade.
Tesla is way ahead on that curve, being now worth more than all the major US car companies combined, and the old companies are playing catch up.
Rationalisation could result in maybe four or five EV manufacturers worldwide, one based in Japan, one plus Tesla in the US and maybe 2 in Europe, including JLR as a division of Peugeot - Renault - Nissan and a merger of the Germans into Mercedes- BMW- Audi- VW -Porsche.


I bet many of the smaller EV manufacturers disappear.

Tesla actually have never recorded an annual profit,and have had huge losses.Even in 2018 and 19,they still had large losses.

VW and Toyota will continue to soldier on as the biggest players in the auto market.They have huge capital,and expertise to change to suit different markets all over the world.If and when EV's take off,they will have theirs as well.

In fact Toyota has had hybrids for over 20yrs,so they were well ahead of the market.

[Stuck]

I think my 5.0 WB holden ute would've just scraped through in 1983... but yes, we've been without a decent local vehicle since forever....😣
I was too busy trying to forget the UC Torana to think about the WB.

[laney]

Holden started to die when they dropped the Kindswood badge think I'll keep my 308 HZ.

[justinc]

Holden started to die when they dropped the Kindswood badge think I'll keep my 308 HZ.

My cousin bought a 1 owner HZ kingswood SL sedan, was factory ordered with 4 spd 308 and 3.36:1 diff for towing horse floats. Had 450k on it, original diff and trans but second engine. Was a sleeper with SL hubcaps and single exhaust etc....

Got any pics of the Z?

[Stuck]

Holden brand is dead because.
They treated a lot of customers with contempt


Just a small part of people I have seen dealing with Holden and why they are gone.


People want.

value for money
good service and dealer experience.
good parts back up.
a product which long lasting that suits local conditions.

If the above was done ….Holden would own the market...…...they failed in most of the above.


I'm hearing ya. I started with a Holden dealership in '89 and got out in '06, more than half of it at a middle management level and saw first hand the contempt, especially towards the end of my stint, that at times, our next level management treated our customers with. And please don't mention the Viva again. Some of the early ones required assistance to get off of the truck into the yard (LOL).

[Pickles2]

HZ,....308.....Factory?.....Very rare car now, a good one is very desirable.......BUT, it's GOTTA have dual exhausts!!....Lol,..but seriously, a good, solid, original HZ 308 Kingswood would be good value, and even more so in the future.
Pickles.

[4bee]

I'm hearing ya. I started with a Holden dealership in '89 and got out in '06, more than half of it at a middle management level and saw first hand the contempt, especially towards the end of my stint, that our next level management treated our customers with. And please don't mention the Viva again (LOL).



Ed Zackerly that, imho.

Years ago we purchased a Camira 4 door from a North East located Holden dealer, middle of Summer we went to pick it up late arvo. We were left sitting in the glassed in & un- airconditioned show room while they sorted out something or other. (If it was air conditioned it wasn't turned on)

Manager was sighted in his office, feet up on desk, newspaper in hands & his air conditioning running. We clients sweating profusely in said hot house.

'er indoors opened his door to a startled "Manager", marched in & said "Your'e bloody alright are you mate?". I don't recall the exact reaction now but whatever it was it was very negative. [biggrin] Point is, that if we had not already signed an order for the Camira we would have strolled out.

We never did even consider another Holden anything after that, & the next one was Toymota Camry from Mount Barker, a lovely & reliable car until we bought the D1. (Oddly, the LR D1 dealers were **** as well we found later on). 'er indoors didn't want to part with the Camry, but we did:BigCry:.

Never even offered a drink of cold water &/or a seat in his ACd office. BASTARD!

I think if one multiplied that experience by say, thousands throughout Australia over the years it is easy to see why they went downhill. We also had a great experience with the Mazda CX-3 a year ago. Hospitality & attention was great & nothing too much trouble for them (also a NE of Adelaide Dealer)

[Tombie]

Aussie cars of years gone by are sentimental things only.
They handled like ****, stopped like ****, were equipped like ****. Sure some went ok, that’s about it.

Sentiment and childhood memories drove prices to stupid levels - old doesn’t mean something is actually valuable (except it seems to at the moment [emoji6] ) and there’s indications the old vehicles are starting to lower slightly in price.

Holden (and Ford) made poorly constructed and poorly featured cars at inflated prices to public that couldn’t buy anything else.

And then expected us to not notice as the world became smaller....

Like that advertising run... Football, Meat pies, Kangaroos and Holden Cars... GM suckered the globe with that same tune.


I do like the look of a Ford Coupe, or a nice SLR 5000 [emoji41]
But my favourite would be this gem. Again sentimental as we had one (also had a XY phase 3 and some other fun stuff)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200218/897dc18b06938b603958ed10380d6a44.jpg

[DiscoMick]

The Charger was certainly impressive. Wish I had one tucked away in the shed.

[JDNSW]

Aussie cars of years gone by are sentimental things only.
They handled like ****, stopped like ****, were equipped like ****. Sure some went ok, that’s about it.



Just to put Australian cars in perspective - in the mid sixties my company car was a Holden - single circuit eight inch drum brakes, crossply tyres, virtually no safety equipment, cart axle at the back, no heater, no radio, no aircon. Engine a prewar design, little changed since 1914. Fuel tank 8 gallons, frequently holed by stones.

My own car at the time was a Citroen - four wheel independent self levelling suspension, inboard front discs, dual braking system, power brakes, power steering, heater, radial tyres, engine 1950s design, hemispherical combustion chambers, safety steering column, controlled collapse rate front end for collisions, protected 14 gallon fuel tank - and it was assembled in Adelaide!

[Johndoe]

First holden i owned was a HT wagon, 3 on the tree.
Last holden i owned was a VT Calais.
Owned pretty much all in between.

I loved the badge. I loved the cars.

Countless fun times in those cars, memories i can not replace.
Because they break down i learned how to work on cars rather than pay mechanics....like my land rover does today :)

I know you all hate them but not me.

[rick130]

I had a VC Commodore wagon in the late 80's/early 90's and it was a great car for the time.
It could fit a kart in the back, the space between the wheel arches was better than my Jeep truck.
4 speed, slightly modded V8, lowered, a set of custom valved Koni's all round, anti roll bar on the back, DS11 pads and it went all over the east coast way too quickly.

As said, the 60's/70's versions are ordinary compared to imports.
Dad bought a Toyota Crown ute to supplement his HR Holden vans for his business in 1969 and it was so far ahead of the local cars in fit, finish, comfort, etc

[Johndoe]

I had a VC Commodore wagon in the late 80's/early 90's and it was a great car for the time.
It could fit a kart in the back, the space between the wheel arches was better than my Jeep truck.
4 speed, slightly modded V8, lowered, a set of custom valved Koni's all round, anti roll bar on the back, DS11 pads and it went all over the east coast way too quickly.

As said, the 60's/70's versions are ordinary compared to imports.
Dad bought a Toyota Crown ute to supplement his HR Holden vans for his business in 1969 and it was so far ahead of the local cars in fit, finish, comfort, etc


I rebuilt a VB from the ground up. Cost me a damn bomb!
5616 cam initially before going to wades for a custom. All the good stuff.
Literally stripped the car to bare metal. Painted underneath with sound deadener blah blah.

Labor of love that was. My first engine build.
I smile now even thinking about it actually.

As for quality, yes i agree the mazdas and toyotas and pretty much every other car around was of a newer design.
But a V8 VB. Cmon!!!!!!!

Yep i must have got sucked into the meat pies and holden cars...................
I still eat meat pies and if a cheap commode comes up i will likely purchase it.

[1950landy]

I have had a FJ ute ( great car), FE (great car), HD X2 & HD ute ( booth cars), HQ Kingswood (another great car ) a Tarana ( can't remember model) then came the new VB ( worst car I have ever owned) Never again every thing fell to bits on it including the trim that came unglued every were. Only kept it less than two years after the head developed cracks & it had never been over heated.

My son in law likes Commodore's has had about four , they are always braking down & he takes my Falcon ute & askes me to fix it , I hate working on them & now refuse. [bighmmm] My 14 year old Falcon ute I almost have to do anything to it other than service & normal consumables like tires, hoses , belts & plugs. I replaced the Disc Pads for the 1st time last year.

[DiscoMick]

A history of Holden in Australia – timeline

A history of Holden in Australia – timeline | Business | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/19/a-history-of-holden-in-australia-timeline?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[1950landy]

Just read Ford has announced they will invest $1/2 bil in australia over next year [smilebigeye]

[Johndoe]

A history of Holden in Australia – timeline

A history of Holden in Australia – timeline | Business | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/19/a-history-of-holden-in-australia-timeline?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

What a disappointing link. Skips 30 years at a time. I was hoping to see the whole timeline.

Here is some for what its worth in image form :)

https://www.uniquecarposters.com/media/album/L_UUO_holden-history-part-1c.jpg

Even sexier.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/fb/e9/e5fbe9b879482f2d81050be11fc0cade.jpg

Yea i still love em, sue me.

[4bee]

Aussie cars of years gone by are sentimental things only.
They handled like ****, stopped like ****, were equipped like ****. Sure some went ok, that’s about it.

Sentiment and childhood memories drove prices to stupid levels - old doesn’t mean something is actually valuable (except it seems to at the moment [emoji6] ) and there’s indications the old vehicles are starting to lower slightly in price.

Holden (and Ford) made poorly constructed and poorly featured cars at inflated prices to public that couldn’t buy anything else.

And then expected us to not notice as the world became smaller....

Like that advertising run... Football, Meat pies, Kangaroos and Holden Cars... GM suckered the globe with that same tune.


I do like the look of a Ford Coupe, or a nice SLR 5000 [emoji41]
But my favourite would be this gem. Again sentimental as we had one (also had a XY phase 3 and some other fun stuff)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200218/897dc18b06938b603958ed10380d6a44.jpg



Sentiment and childhood memories drove prices to stupid levels - old doesn’t mean something is actually valuable (except it seems to at the moment [emoji6] ) and there’s indications the old vehicles are starting to lower slightly in price.

Bloody hell Mike, do you mean I'll only get 80k for my '66 2A instead of the anticipated $80,200?


Where's me gun I'm gonna top meself or maybe jump out of a window? Oh the shame of it, the shame, the shame.[happycry][biggrin][biggrin]

[DiscoMick]

I wonder if the value of restored Holdens in collections will go up or down because of the end of Holden?

[Tombie]

I wonder if the value of restored Holdens in collections will go up or down because of the end of Holden?

For some unknown reason it will likely go Up.
Human fascination with old stuff is a unique phenomenon!

[scarry]

We only had Holdens and Land Rovers,for private vehicles.Boring ,I know.

Favourite was my first car a ‘74 HQ ute with the upgraded front disc brakes,bull bar,202 3 on the tree,and a 3.08 diff from a Torana,so on a big hill going out to the property other side of Moonie,on the long straights it would wind off the speedo.[biggrin]

I remember on one attempt a group of Emus decided to commit suicide,I locked it up and ploughed into the last one which was huge.It smashed one of the headlights,no loss,they weren’t much better than candles anyway,those sealed beams,spotlights were a must.

Did over 300 000k,s in that ute,later got a fibreglass canopy,the Engle was permanently in the back.Always out camping in it,one Friday night we decided to go to Carnarvon gorge for a long weekend,drove through the night to get there.Heaps of dirt roads to get there in those days.The things we used to do when we were younger.

SWMBO had a HR sedan,186,power glide,went well until it got stolen.....Didn’t need a key to start it[bighmmm]

Then HZ wagon,VN Dunny Dore,and last VS SS HSV.

That VS was a nice car as well,and that VN used to get 30 mpg on a run no worries,the VS with the Holden V8 was pretty good on fuel as well.

[Tins]

The Falcon was Falcon in name only previously, too. An early 'World Car' attempt, perhaps? The European built Granada. (1985 model) Had a run from '71 to '94.

158078

Sure, but can you show me ONE part they had in common with the XD?

158120

This, however, had MANY parts that crossed over. The engines didn't, but the best bit, the IRS, didn't come to the Commodore, unchanged, until the high end VP, nearly 20 years later. . This car is why the Commodore had such narrow suspension on such a wide car up until the VR.

The XD looked like a Granada. The Commodore was an Opel. Not a lot wrong with either approach, but get it right if you want to pick sides.




I don't excuse Ford BTW. The Cortina and Escort were British, the Capri ( not the convertible ) was both British and German, The Mondeo harks from many places.

The Torana made a lot of sense. Developing cars costs huge sums, and Holden was in trouble, as was Chrysler ( remember Centura? ) and Ford. Australia was, and still is, a VERY small market. It's astonishing that the Falcon nameplate lasted as long as it did. 56 years is an incredible run. Holden could have had even better, but they went from "Special" to "Kingswood" to "Commodore", so there was no continuity.

Remember, companies such as Datsun ( Nissan), Renault, Peugot, VW, all tried their hand at building cars here ( CKD sure, but they tried ) and all failed. Oh, and Toyota at Altona, also gone. With lots of Aussie $$$, if I'm not mistaken.

Back to the Capri: was there any more an ambitious scheme than Ford Australia's attempt at a true sports car? Poor timing and so so build quality sank the Aussie Capri, which was a shame. The Fiat Barchetta was better, and then of course the MX5 sank both of them.

[Tins]

For some unknown reason it will likely go Up.
Human fascination with old stuff is a unique phenomenon!

LOL. I see people with restored EH Holdens and I laugh. The thing was a piece of **** when new, so why is it so good 55 years on? I don't restrict my mirth to the EH BTW. I have a 1969 Fiat 124 Sport. It's a terrible car. But, unlike the EH, it looks good. It would be far better to repower it with a Nissan or Honda engine, and the purists would scream. If it made it to a meeting without falling apart from rust. But I love it for some unknown reason.

I don't believe in throwing things away because they are old. My old LRs are still quite capable vehicles, and they have eclipsed the "carbon footprint " of any Tesla, but they are not a new LR by any mean. I hate the 'throw your power saw away because the blade is blunt" mentality, but I also understand why people are charged with desire for, say, the new Defender. I am also aware that that desire will last until the 'next' thing.

I have lots of "old stuff". I just wish I could find someone to buy it all.

[Tombie]

John, I don’t have a problem with the keeping of ‘old stuff’

I am just stunned at the ridiculous prices people are willing to pay for it [emoji6]

In recent years I’ve revisited some memories - gone to places, done things, driven certain vehicles. I can almost categorically say; some things are best kept as fantastic memories. The modern reality often doesn’t match.

[Tins]

John, I don’t have a problem with the keeping of ‘old stuff’

I am just stunned at the ridiculous prices people are willing to pay for it [emoji6]

In recent years I’ve revisited some memories - gone to places, done things, driven certain vehicles. I can almost categorically say; some things are best kept as fantastic memories. The modern reality often doesn’t match.

Indeed. I have a 2005 Falcon BA. In every way it is a better car than the stuff I would yearn for, if I were nostalgic. (I am nostalgic, BTW, but that's another topic for another day. )

[Tins]

First holden i owned was a HT wagon, 3 on the tree.
Last holden i owned was a VT Calais.
Owned pretty much all in between.

I loved the badge. I loved the cars.

Countless fun times in those cars, memories i can not replace.
Because they break down i learned how to work on cars rather than pay mechanics....like my land rover does today :)

I know you all hate them but not me.

Wong. I don't hate them.... I hate the thinking.

[Tins]

A history of Holden in Australia – timeline

A history of Holden in Australia – timeline | Business | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/19/a-history-of-holden-in-australia-timeline?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

Don't only read The Guardian.... but can only quote it.... C'mon Mick, broaden.....

[BradC]

LOL. I see people with restored EH Holdens and I laugh. The thing was a piece of **** when new, so why is it so good 55 years on?

If I had a garage where I could lock it up and keep it under cover I'd love one. Yes, it's a POS, but it's a POS that my grandfather hand-beat curves into, lead wiped and painted up damaged panels from the journey from East to West before they hit the showroom floor. And one towed the caravan that I still hook up behind my much nicer but just as unreliable D3.

Nostalgia. Oh and he'd probably wet his pants if he saw the van hooked up to a nicely restored EH as the cupboard doors inisde the van are painted with a left over special limited blue that Holden tried out at about that time.

I've never been a Holden fan, but just like I go nuts for a fastidiously restored E-type (or my old mans TR4A), a really well done old Holden gets my attention, respect and tip of the hat.

[3toes]

Rose tinted glasses for the past are common all depends on what you remember. An E type jaguar was a dream to drive when new. Tried one the other day and was let wondering what my memories were as it a just not fun and even a cheap modern car is a far nicer place to be.

[incisor]

Dad bought a Toyota Crown ute to supplement his HR Holden vans for his business in 1969 and it was so far ahead of the local cars in fit, finish, comfort, etc

and went so much better with a 186 fitted to them :P

[jonesfam]

I have only ever owned 1 Holden.
It was a Torana. It was a 2 door with a 186 motor, 3 on the tree.
As I am not a Holden person I have no idea what model it was but looked a bit like a shark, SWMBO called it The Shark.
I must admit I thought it was a pretty good car, mainly because our previous car was a Fiat 128 1100.
So the Shark seemed very powerful!
The first time I drove it up the Toowoomba range I was shocked, reckon it did it better than my old XT 302 ute!
That was the last "Car" we ever owned, after that it's been all 4WD's.
Jonesfam

[DiscoMick]

We had a canary yellow Kingswood wagon which was a crude old beast, but could carry an enormous amount of kid's junk in the back.
Later we had a blue Commodore wagon which was quite a good car.
One of my bosses had a V8 Calais whose fuel gauge moved faster than the speedo!

[Tins]

If I had a garage where I could lock it up and keep it under cover I'd love one. Yes, it's a POS, but it's a POS that my grandfather hand-beat curves into, lead wiped and painted up damaged panels from the journey from East to West before they hit the showroom floor. And one towed the caravan that I still hook up behind my much nicer but just as unreliable D3.

Nostalgia. Oh and he'd probably wet his pants if he saw the van hooked up to a nicely restored EH as the cupboard doors inisde the van are painted with a left over special limited blue that Holden tried out at about that time.

I've never been a Holden fan, but just like I go nuts for a fastidiously restored E-type (or my old mans TR4A), a really well done old Holden gets my attention, respect and tip of the hat.

I have no problem with any of that. I agree largely with Tombie, but I'd give a heck of a lot to get back the MGB my dad bought in 1963, first boat load, white with red seats, 3 bearing crank engine, from Lane's Motors. I got it when I was 19. I paid him for it. It had 29,000 mile on it in 10 years. I drove it into the ground. The old man has been dead for 21 years so I can't even tell him how sorry I am.

It was an awful car, but it looked great and had a cracking exhaust note.

I had an EH. It was bog standard. One morning I was driving my then wife to work. It was a little damp, and I lost it on a bend. It kissed a tree on the passenger door. Car could have been driven away, but the armrest shattered her hip. There were 12 months of hell that ensued. This was in 1980. Not the cars fault, obviously, but a modern car would have protected her at the cost of itself.

I get that you like restored old Holdens. I follow a guy who does old Falcons. I admire the dedication. But a restored EH or XP is still a POS. I much prefer a modernised version, one that looks the goods but is a real world driver.

Something like this:
https://youtu.be/bLodfRxxDKQ

Yeah, $$$$$$, but how much does a full resto on a Holden cost?

[Tombie]

Unsure, however using a mates 67 XR Fairmont as reference.

That build is at $110k and climbing.

[1950landy]

The guy across the road has one of the last Monaro's off the production line , I see he has a big [biggrin] at the moment . He only drives it about half a dozen times a year to coffee & cars so will have low K's

[DiscoMick]

Most Holden dealers saw this coming and added other brands to their businesses. Today I saw one Holden dealer who also has Nissan, Renault and Honda, for example.

[3toes]

Multi branding has been with the industry for decades. Manufacturers do not like it and put many hurdles in the way however were not able to stop it. Even if there is only one franchise on the site they will own others elsewhere. Some times they will have the same name on all sites other times will use different names. This was done so the dealers could protect themselves a little from the manufacturers.

Theory is that they can jettison one brand and their business should be able to carry on. Also brands profitability varies across a models life cycle. One brand that is profitable carries the other brands in the dealer group.

Dealers like to build their own brand while manufacturers want the dealer to build their brand. They see the dealer building their brand as challenging the manufacturer.

Often they will target brands with a similar customer base so marketing spend is maximised. You see Kia, Hyundai, Citroen, Peugeot. Fiat and Renault in the one dealer group as these brands all target the budget market. For the same reason you see Ford, Vauxhall, Volvo, Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW and VW together as they target the mid and volume markets

[V8Ian]

Many of the new car dealerships, in the greater Brisbane area, are owned by either Austral or Eagers.

[pop058]

Bundy has 3 main players.

1 has GMH, Mazda and Mitsubishi,

2nd has Ford, Toyota, VW, Havel, Great Wall, Suzuki.

and the 3rd, Nissan, Subaru, Benz, Jeep, Honda, Land Rover, Ram, Dodge, Kia, Hyundai, Alfa, Fiat, LDV Isuzu Ute,

and a gaggle of independent used car yards.

[4bee]

I guess that is where the saying "Keep (or don't keep) all your eggs in one basket" originated?[biggrin]

[scarry]

The guy across the road has one of the last Monaro's off the production line , I see he has a big [biggrin] at the moment . He only drives it about half a dozen times a year to coffee & cars so will have low K's

The guy across the road here has an original V8 HQ Monaro.It needs a respray,rear window seals are also shagged,but apart from that,not much else needed.Original, 4 speed,pressed metal wheels,etc.

Picked it up about 15yrs ago.

He is a brick layer,a builder couldn't pay,and the Monaro was part payment for the job.

Wife isn't allowed to drive it[bighmmm][biggrin]

[WhiteD3]

Holden was never really Australian (https://theconversation.com/holden-was-never-really-australian-131994)

[Meccles]

Understood about rose tinted glasses but have to say my 77RRC admittedly with new electrics/dash is still a nice drive. I've got more modern vehicles which are easier (automatics) but actual comfort, speed etc is pretty good. You know the worst thing? Small exterior mirrors and manual windows - I'd better do something about that [emoji106]

[JDNSW]

Holden was never really Australian (https://theconversation.com/holden-was-never-really-australian-131994)

This article misses two significant points:-


The Holden that rolled off the production line in 1948 owed nothing to car designed by Holden during the war. It was a planned 1943 Chevrolet that was deemed too small for the post war US market. Certainly Holden would have converted the design to RHD and probably modified the design in minor ways to use Australian materials, but it had nothing in common with Holden's own design.
Not mentioned is that GM insisted that the Englishman, Hartnett, who had headed GMH since the early thirties, be replaced by an American, as Harnett, despite having had his entire career with GM all over the world over more than 25 years, was regarded as "too Australian". Harnett refused the transfer to Detroit and quit.

[4bee]

Hartnett then started up his own Car Manufacturing Factory.


Hartnett (car) - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartnett_(car))

[scarry]

If anyone wants one,this one is for sale,only driven on weekends.

I wonder what it will bring?

Some ridiculous price no doubt

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SE5fk4vXYU)

[V8Ian]

This article misses two significant points:-


The Holden that rolled off the production line in 1948 owed nothing to car designed by Holden during the war. It was a planned 1943 Chevrolet that was deemed too small for the post war US market. Certainly Holden would have converted the design to RHD and probably modified the design in minor ways to use Australian materials, but it had nothing in common with Holden's own design.
Not mentioned is that GM insisted that the Englishman, Hartnett, who had headed GMH since the early thirties, be replaced by an American, as Harnett, despite having had his entire career with GM all over the world over more than 25 years, was regarded as "too Australian". Harnett refused the transfer to Detroit and quit.


Wasn't the 48-215 (FX), originally a Pontiac design? Pontiac were one step up the GM prestige ladder from the entry level Chevrolet. Oldsmobile and Buick were the next steps, culminating in the highly prestigious, range topping Cadillac.

[V8Ian]

If anyone wants one,this one is for sale,only driven on weekends.

I wonder what it will bring?

Some ridiculous price no doubt

YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SE5fk4vXYU)
Nah, the tyres are bald, it won't pass a roadie. [bigwhistle]

[scarry]

Nah, the tyres are bald, it won't pass a roadie. [bigwhistle]

There are 'wets',just throw e set on for the roadworthy[bighmmm]

[JDNSW]

Wasn't the 48-215 (FX), originally a Pontiac design? Pontiac were one step up the GM prestige ladder from the entry level Chevrolet. Oldsmobile and Buick were the next steps, culminating in the highly prestigious, range topping Cadillac.

You could be right, I thought it was Chevrolet (could be misremembering it), but the main point of course is that it was a Detroit design, not an Australian one. It had been planned to go to the US market in 1943, but of course by then the USA was at war, and it was put on hold. By the end of the war, it was considered too small for the home market.

By 1943 standards, especially in the US it was advanced, being of unitary construction, but by 1948 was definitely dated in design. Not that this really mattered - most of the competition was either the prewar design unchanged or the prewar design with a facelift - and in any case, with few new cars sold during the Depression, and almost none during the war, cars were in very short supply. I remember when I was going to school in the 1940s the bus went past a place that specialised in parts for Chevrolet fours (and also sold them). The last of these was sold in about 1929.

[bob10]

Here is an argument Holden AKA GMH should have concentrated on the auto components sector, rather than car manufacture, after tariff ptotection was removed. In other words it was a flawed business model. Makes sense, too late now of course.


"In retrospect, we can sympathise with governments not wishing to pull the plug on a major industry employing many thousands of workers. Not many countries can sustain an integrated car manufacturing industry. Most don’t even try. Those that succeed do so because they can control their own destiny, including investing in future technologies, skills and market development. The only part of the Australian car industry that could control its own destiny was the auto components sector, which was world-competitive. "


Holden's dead end shows government policy should have taken a different road (https://theconversation.com/holdens-dead-end-shows-government-policy-should-have-taken-a-different-road-132080?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%201541014711&utm_content=The%20Weekend%20Conversation%20-%201541014711+CID_1713c4055d8acfc682ccb6a18b946c2f&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=Holdens%20dead%20end%20shows%20government %20policy%20should%20have%20taken%20a%20different% 20road)


https://cdn.theconversation.com/avatars/3866/width170/bydwymss-1367532179.jpg Roy Green (https://theconversation.com/profiles/roy-green-3866)
Emeritus Professor & UTS innovation adviser, University of Technology Sydney

[DiscoMick]

Sounds logical, if Detroit had been prepared to buy Australian-made components.

[JDNSW]

Sounds logical, if Detroit had been prepared to buy Australian-made components.

Problem was that the government got in bed with Detroit in 1947, with no Australian control at all. Head office was never going to let the Australian arm compete with head office. If the Australian government had been prepared to back an Australian company to the extent they did the foreign ones, there may have been a case for making cars here, although that is unlikely, as it would have needed a lot of exports to get the volume needed. And Australia has always been a poor place for manufacturing compared to most of our competitors, for a wide range of reasons. Not just the cost of labour, but tax structures, shortage of capital, distances, transport costs, power costs, land costs etc etc! In 1947 there was very little transport by road - it was all by rail, run by state monopolies, or by sea, with your shipping at the mercy of waterside worker's and seamen's unions and near monopoly ship owners and stevedoring companies..

[rick130]

Problem was that the government got in bed with Detroit in 1947, with no Australian control at all. Head office was never going to let the Australian arm compete with head office. If the Australian government had been prepared to back an Australian company to the extent they did the foreign ones, there may have been a case for making cars here, although that is unlikely, as it would have needed a lot of exports to get the volume needed. And Australia has always been a poor place for manufacturing compared to most of our competitors, for a wide range of reasons. Not just the cost of labour, but tax structures, shortage of capital, distances, transport costs, power costs, land costs etc etc! In 1947 there was very little transport by road - it was all by rail, run by state monopolies, or by sea, with your shipping at the mercy of waterside worker's and seamen's unions and near monopoly ship owners and stevedoring companies..I seem to remember a story that the then Chairman of GM in the 40's questioning why they were doing business in and with a government of a country so Socialist that its railways were State owned [emoji50]

[JDNSW]

I seem to remember a story that the then Chairman of GM in the 40's questioning why they were doing business in and with a government of a country so Socialist that its railways were State owned [emoji50]

Yes, that probably increased the price Chifley had to pay to get Holden established as a manufacturer!

[V8Ian]

I seem to remember a story that the then Chairman of GM in the 40's questioning why they were doing business in and with a government of a country so Socialist that its railways were State owned [emoji50]
I didn't realise you were that old, Rick.

[rick130]

I didn't realise you were that old, Rick.Hold my age well, don't I? [emoji39]

[V8Ian]

Hold my age well, don't I? [emoji39]
Better than Mrs 4Bee thinks Des does.[wink11] [biggrin]

[martnH]

I myself run a business
Anybody can shed some lights on how to get government subsidy like Holden from the US of A?
Mind you mine is Australian business. Does it mean mine is not eligible?

My business provides 20 employments amd if you want to count all the "externalities" I created I would guess the business contributed between 5 to 10 million $ to the wider society, depending on how much I want to spend on the economic analysis and how optimistic the parameters are.
If anybody suggest me to pump the profit overseas and claim running the business at a financial loss, please stop. You should know It's not easy for the small players. For GM , maybe.

Cheers

[4bee]

Better than Mrs 4Bee thinks Des does.[wink11] [biggrin]



You may never know now Ian. [biggrin] Actually I am wearing my olde gaffer's face mask today to keep you naturals company.[smilebigeye]

Right, now where is my walking cane?

[DiscoMick]

Analysis: Australia's auto industry isn't dead — in fact, parts of it are thriving
Holden's demise doesn't signal the death of Australia's automotive industry - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-22/auto-industry-not-dead-in-australia-yet-despite-holden-demise/11989700)

[scarry]

It will be interesting to see what happens to the V8 Supercars in the next 12 to 18 months.

They may go as well.

[V8Ian]

It will be interesting to see what happens to the V8 Supercars in the next 12 to 18 months.

They may go as well.
We could adopt the BTCC class (NGTC), or go Formula Mustang. [bigwhistle]

[pop058]

We could adopt the BTCC class (NGTC), or go Formula Mustang. [bigwhistle]

TCR [thumbsupbig]

TCR Australia Official Website | Homologated Cars | TCR Series (https://www.tcraustralia.com/)

[PhilipA]

V8supercars have no relationship to Holdens or Fords sold to the public.
I cannot believe how deluded the fans are that go to Bathurst.
Lets see Nissans Volvo’s and Holdens do not come in RWD and the Mustangs look nothing like real Mustangs.
All have space frames engines and transmissions that cost a kings ransom.

All are levelled to provide a spectacle .
BTW there is a rumour from John Cadogan that no teams are viable and are secretly subsidised by the Federal government.
I cannot see much wrong with that off course considering the billions spent on football stadiums.
Give the proletariat cake.

But the cars could be anything. how about Kias or maybe MGs. Or maybe anyone rich enough or stupid enough to burn millions.

Regards PhilipA

[Pickles2]

V8supercars have no relationship to Holdens or Fords sold to the public.
I cannot believe how deluded the fans are that go to Bathurst.
Lets see Nissans Volvo’s and Holdens do not come in RWD and the Mustangs look nothing like real Mustangs.
All have space frames engines and transmissions that cost a kings ransom.

All are levelled to provide a spectacle .
BTW there is a rumour from John Cadogan that no teams are viable and are secretly subsidised by the Federal government.
I cannot see much wrong with that off course considering the billions spent on football stadiums.
Give the proletariat cake.

But the cars could be anything. how about Kias or maybe MGs. Or maybe anyone rich enough or stupid enough to burn millions.

Regards PhilipA
Tin top racing for many years has been about "Holden V Ford",..the "Red" v the "Blue", the fans don't care about "not what you can buy" etc, there haven't been Aussie cars that could've raced in something close to road trim, on equal terms, for many years. Johnson raced a Sierra very successfully, fans still talk about his Sierras, fastest in the World they were, didn't worry the fans ya couldn't buy the car in Aussie, it was still "Holden V Ford", "The Blue Team" V "The Red Team".
I'm not a fan of Cadogan, & whilst I'm a big fan of Supercars, I really don't know how some teams survive, the cost of running a team is MASSIVE, for sure I wouldn't be putting any dollars of mine in, even if I had any!
So, for years, whatever the car, whatever the "configuration", it's been "Holden V Ford", that's what the fans wanted, that's what they got, in whatever form. But they can't have that any more.
So, what cars will run in Supercars next year, apart from Mustang?.....I don't know,....Ryan Walkinshaw has said He won't be racing a Commodore next year. Also heard that Audi, Mercedes etc, do not wish to run against Ford!!
Of course I'm aware that many on this Forum think Supercars is rubbish. Not a problem, whatever "floats ya boat" I suppose.
The TV Deal, FTA & Foxtel, is also up for renewal/renegotiation, so lots of challenges for Supercars, that's for sure.
Will I miss not seeing a "Holden" of whatever configuration running?.....Absolutely I will.
All IMHO, Pickles.

[101RRS]

Tin top racing for many years has been about "Holden V Ford",..the "Red" v the "Blue".

Totally correct there, before Nissan, Volvo and Mercedes became involved, Chrysler had applied to join the V8s with their 300c and bring a third brand in but was told NO - it is not a Holden or a Ford and thats all the competition will accept so no 300C also racing against Ford and Holden.

[PhilipA]

I think it has been nostalgia for many years just like the Poms with their Lancaster fly overs.

Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

Tin top racing for many years has been about "Holden V Ford",..the "Red" v the "Blue", the fans don't care about "not what you can buy" etc, there haven't been Aussie cars that could've raced in something close to road trim, on equal terms, for many years. Johnson raced a Sierra very successfully, fans still talk about his Sierras, fastest in the World they were, didn't worry the fans ya couldn't buy the car in Aussie, it was still "Holden V Ford", "The Blue Team" V "The Red Team".
I'm not a fan of Cadogan, & whilst I'm a big fan of Supercars, I really don't know how some teams survive, the cost of running a team is MASSIVE, for sure I wouldn't be putting any dollars of mine in, even if I had any!
So, for years, whatever the car, whatever the "configuration", it's been "Holden V Ford", that's what the fans wanted, that's what they got, in whatever form. But they can't have that any more.
So, what cars will run in Supercars next year, apart from Mustang?.....I don't know,....Ryan Walkinshaw has said He won't be racing a Commodore next year. Also heard that Audi, Mercedes etc, do not wish to run against Ford!!
Of course I'm aware that many on this Forum think Supercars is rubbish. Not a problem, whatever "floats ya boat" I suppose.
The TV Deal, FTA & Foxtel, is also up for renewal/renegotiation, so lots of challenges for Supercars, that's for sure.
Will I miss not seeing a "Holden" of whatever configuration running?.....Absolutely I will.
All IMHO, Pickles.

Exactly.

Fans are not deluded at all,its a red versus blue,as it has been since the late 60's.They know its now not what is in the showrooms.HAs been like this for over 20yrs.

It is amazing some think they are.

They had other brands for quite a few years,and that didn't work,in fact this is the first year its back to Red and Blue for quite a few years.

Without being pessimistic,i think its all over,and will be a real shame not to have the series,and Bathurst as we know it now.

I also think many of the younger generation have no interest in the rivalry and the series in general,which doesn't help.

Other categories have come and gone,over the years,but none have had the following of the Supercars in their current form.

I hope i am wrong,we will have to wait and see.

[ramblingboy42]

Look at Nascar, call them what you want, there is really no brand recognition yet Toyota put their name on some and the public go along with it.

Same could happen here.

Or we could move to something like GT3 which IMO is better class racing than British Touring Cars.

What would be good would be a class that attracts internationals , very much like our Bathurst 6 & 12 hr.

[Tins]

and went so much better with a 186 fitted to them :P

imagine how much better it'd go with a Barra.

[INter674]

V8supercars have no relationship to Holdens or Fords sold to the public.
I cannot believe how deluded the fans are that go to Bathurst.
Lets see Nissans Volvo’s and Holdens do not come in RWD and the Mustangs look nothing like real Mustangs.
All have space frames engines and transmissions that cost a kings ransom.

All are levelled to provide a spectacle .
BTW there is a rumour from John Cadogan that no teams are viable and are secretly subsidised by the Federal government.
I cannot see much wrong with that off course considering the billions spent on football stadiums.
Give the proletariat cake.

But the cars could be anything. how about Kias or maybe MGs. Or maybe anyone rich enough or stupid enough to burn millions.

Regards PhilipA

Supercars like lots of other private organisations have mastered the art if sucking lots of cash out of governments....who are more than willing to attend to glad hand the media. They often use blackmail eg "we'll leave if you don't give us money etc etc...and look at the cash we bring to your State etc etc

The maxim is "privatise the profits and socialise the costs"

Worse still many hand outs are kept confidential despite being public money.

Nice work if you can get it😎

[Tins]

I was too busy trying to forget the UC Torana to think about the WB.

I've been trying to forget the Backfire Four for decades. Toyota even used that lump in the XT130 'Corona'! I remember the ad " Damn crever, these Ostlalians". Although, that was really for the awful Sunbird.


https://youtu.be/JhkFyh9F8vo

[Pickles2]

Exactly.

Fans are not deluded at all,its a red versus blue,as it has been since the late 60's.They know its now not what is in the showrooms.HAs been like this for over 20yrs.

It is amazing some think they are.

They had other brands for quite a few years,and that didn't work,in fact this is the first year its back to Red and Blue for quite a few years.

Without being pessimistic,i think its all over,and will be a real shame not to have the series,and Bathurst as we know it now.

I also think many of the younger generation have no interest in the rivalry and the series in general,which doesn't help.

Other categories have come and gone,over the years,but none have had the following of the Supercars in their current form.

I hope i am wrong,we will have to wait and see.
Thank You, for, unlike some, a sensible answer.
I have no idea what will be the future of what we commonly call "Aussie Tin Tops". And I have said, no dollars of mine would go into a Supercars Team.
However, there are some very passionate Teams, & equally passionate sponsors (what other reason could they have to be involved?!), and so I believe that Supercars will be alive & well into 2021 & beyond.
Pickles.

[Stuck]

I've been trying to forget the Backfire Four for decades. Toyota even used that lump in the XT130 'Corona'! I remember the ad " Damn crever, these Ostlalians". Although, that was really for the awful Sunbird.


https://youtu.be/JhkFyh9F8vo
That was the LX Torana withe the (h)OPEL(ess) 1900. The starfire/misfire 4 was a 2850 (173) 6 cyl. with pots 2 and 5 removed. Tough motor but the rest of the car ????. Took them while to learn with OPEL too, the rebodied Camira called the Calibra, plus other ill thought out ventures like the SB Barina, the TR Astra and the JR Vectra. Now I'm getting flashbacks of that other pearl of Holden wisdom, the Suburban. That thing was 5 years old in the states when it was new here. How was that ever going to work ?.

[scarry]

I didn't mind the 173,had it in my first company car,a '73 Belmont HQ ute,drums all round,three on the tree,cross ply tyres.......[bigsad][biggrin][biggrin]
It did some work,fully loaded all the time,arse dragging on the ground,a lot of country work fixing milk vats.Oh,and there was also a set of golf clubs in the back as well[biggrin]

Then we moved onto Holden panel vans with the 253,geez they used some fuel,particularly the later ones,HX and HZ,when the pollution stuff appeared on them.

Back on topic,didn't that starfire engine also appear in a dunny dore model,or was it another 4cyl?

[Johndoe]

I didn't mind the 173

I thought they were square bores and favored for that reason in speedway etc?

[Johndoe]

That was the LX Torana withe the (h)OPEL(ess) 1900. The starfire/misfire 4 was a 2850 (173) 6 cyl. with pots 2 and 5 removed. Tough motor but the rest of the car ????. Took them while to learn with OPEL too, the rebodied Camira called the Calibra, plus other ill thought out ventures like the SB Barina, the TR Astra and the JR Vectra. Now I'm getting flashbacks of that other pearl of Holden wisdom, the Suburban. That thing was 5 years old in the states when it was new here. How was that ever going to work ?.


I owned the old LX at one point. Called the Sunbird if i remember correctly. Well the one i owned was called that. Old 4 cylinder opal piece of crap lol.
My intent back in my youth was to put a small block 350 in it lol.
Never come to fruition sadly. Mum sold the damn car on me!!!!!
So i spent my apprenticeship money on dope instead of that car :)

[pop058]

I thought they were square bores and favored for that reason in speedway etc?

did not think any of the 6 cyl motors were square.

[DiscoMick]

If they want to make Supercars authentic it should be Hilux, Ranger, Triton and Amarok. That would be fun to watch, particularly down the mountain at Bathurst.

[Tins]

did not think any of the 6 cyl motors were square.

They weren't.



Displacement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_displacement)
130 cubic inches (2,130 cc)
138 cubic inches (2,262 cc)
149 cubic inches (2,447 cc)
161 cubic inches (2,639 cc)
173 cubic inches (2,835 cc)
179 cubic inches (2,940 cc)
186 cubic inches (3,049 cc)
202 cubic inches (3,298 cc)


Cylinder bore (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bore_(engine))
3.125 in (79.4 mm)
3.375 in (85.7 mm)
3.500 in (88.9 mm)
3.563 in (90.5 mm)
3.625 in (92.1 mm)


Piston stroke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_(engine))
3.000 in (76.2 mm)
3.250 in (82.6 mm)



179 and 186 might have come close.

[Tins]

Thank You, for, unlike some, a sensible answer.
I have no idea what will be the future of what we commonly call "Aussie Tin Tops". And I have said, no dollars of mine would go into a Supercars Team.
However, there are some very passionate Teams, & equally passionate sponsors (what other reason could they have to be involved?!), and so I believe that Supercars will be alive & well into 2021 & beyond.
Pickles.

Mixed bag here, Pickles and Scarry....

Scarry says: Fans are not deluded at all,its a red versus blue,as it has been since the late 60's.

So, what colour was Chrysler? Was Peter Manton some colour I don't know? What about Doug Whiteford? Bob Jane's Jag was white. These were all "late 60's", and there were many more.

The Holden Ford thing came from Beechey/Moffatt/Geoghan, pushed on by blokes like Marsden and Firth. (There's a recent mainstream movie that emphasises what motorsport meant to sales. ) Brock came later. Ford, and then Holden, brought the V8 to Aus racing. We didn't need it before, racing was just fine without it. Bill Tuckey raced a FIAT 124 at Bathurst!

Supercars may well live on. After all, F1 does and it sucks big time these days, and the mugs still watch. Most F1 'fans' would have never heard of Brabham, Lauda, Rindt, But Supercars are like NASCAR. Silhouette crap, like milk formulae, everyone lining up for a suck.

I guess I'm just old... But I'll never forget Moff racing with just one gear in his box and nearly taking the win. These days that's a retirement. Soft, the lot of them these days...

[Tins]

That was the LX Torana withe the (h)OPEL(ess) 1900. The starfire/misfire 4 was a 2850 (173) 6 cyl. with pots 2 and 5 removed. Tough motor but the rest of the car ????. Took them while to learn with OPEL too, the rebodied Camira called the Calibra, plus other ill thought out ventures like the SB Barina, the TR Astra and the JR Vectra. Now I'm getting flashbacks of that other pearl of Holden wisdom, the Suburban. That thing was 5 years old in the states when it was new here. How was that ever going to work ?.

Absolutely correct re the Starfire. My memory was playing games. Doesn't matter though, they were both hopeless.

[bob10]

Well, we had a 6 cylinder 2 door Torana in Darwin, back in the 80's. Put a boat on top, took it to Yellow waters, Kakadu. Did the water pump seal, were invited by the owners of the resort to trawl thru the wrecks out the back and help ourselves if we found a suitable replacement. None found, we scrounged a large water container and simply stopped when the engine boiled, and topped it up , after a suitable wait. Got back to Darwin, new water pump , all good. Also what I liked was get a blockage in the carby, just swap over your plug leads, after the bang, no problem. Also after the Torana we had a Premier, drove it to Ayers Rock, on the old corrugated dirt road. Did the seal between the engine cooling and auto gearbox cooling parts of the radiator. When we stopped there was an awful hissing noise from the gearbox as the coolant flowed into it. Got the radiator fixed in Alice, and not long after drove the premier to Sydney. VALE Holden.

[Gav 110]

So, what colour was Chrysler? Was Peter Manton some colour I don't know? What about Doug Whiteford? Bob Jane's Jag was white. These were all "late 60's", and there were many more.

[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

With red and blue taken I’d like Chrysler to have Orange like the General Lee Dodge Charger[emoji12][emoji12][emoji12][emoji12]

[scarry]

If they want to make Supercars authentic it should be Hilux, Ranger, Triton and Amarok. That would be fun to watch, particularly down the mountain at Bathurst.

There is the ECB Superutes series,but how well its going i don't know.

[rick130]

There is the ECB Superutes series,but how well its going i don't know.They're losing relevance.
Custom rear suspension, custom transmission and soon to be custom engines replacing the turbo diesels too (LS)

[Pickles2]

There is the ECB Superutes series,but how well its going i don't know.
The fans didn't like 'em with their diesel engines,...not fast enough they said,....Me? I thought they were OK.
Anyway, they are continuing, but the existing diesel engines are being replaced with a GM LS3 6.2L V8 Petrol engine which is available in several stages of tune, I don't know which spec will be in the Utes.
Pickles.

[scarry]

They're losing relevance.
Custom rear suspension, custom transmission and soon to be custom engines replacing the turbo diesels too (LS)

OK,so another category that is struggling

[Tombie]

OK,so another category that is struggling

Like most Sports...

Without Major Sponsorship and Government Support they aren’t a go.

Just look at the costs involved to be competitive to a level the punters want to see.

Same applies for Football, Soccer etc.

[Homestar]

The fans didn't like 'em with their diesel engines,...not fast enough they said,....Me? I thought they were OK.
Anyway, they are continuing, but the existing diesel engines are being replaced with a GM LS3 6.2L V8 Petrol engine which is available in several stages of tune, I don't know which spec will be in the Utes.
Pickles.

I thought they were ok with the diesels, sticking a V8 in them makes them irrelevant and just like most other racing formats these days. Not sure why we can't go back to basics and they might be able to turn the tide.

[Pickles2]

I thought they were ok with the diesels, sticking a V8 in them makes them irrelevant and just like most other racing formats these days. Not sure why we can't go back to basics and they might be able to turn the tide.
Like I said, that's what I thought, people moan & groan about stuff not being the same as you can buy, but they still wanna change the engine??...the only thing I thought the category needed was a few more entrants!
Pickles.

[DiscoMick]

I suppose in 20 years time it will be EVs. I reckon a Tesla could go pretty well down the mountain.
Pit stops could be an interesting game of who can charge the fastest at a bank of identical 50 kW chargers. That could lead to some innovations in fast charging ability. Team tactics could be interesting.
They would be quiet though.
Will the fans go nuts over Tesla vs some other brand - Renault-Peugeot or LDV? Probably not.
EV trucks could be fun to watch in the Dakar.
It's a funny old world.

[PhilipA]

They could always record V8 engine sounds and play them over speakers on the cars.
But why not F1.
regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

There is an EV F1 series. Saw it once on TV. Was weird no sounds but the racing was close.

[1950landy]

I see an add on TV yesterday for Lloyds Auctions telling people not to sell there Holdens but to contact them .[bighmmm]

[Pickles2]

I see an add on TV yesterday for Lloyds Auctions telling people not to sell there Holdens but to contact them .[bighmmm]
Yeah, I've seen Lloyds & similar "quacking" about the value of Holdens, one of which I have....I've actually had a few over the years.
I remember back in the eighties I bought an HDT VK Group A "the Blue Meanie", and I remember the day after I bought it, Brock split with Holden,...my next door neighbor crowed, "What will that be worth now"?...intimating it'd be worth nothing,....How wrong was He.
As far as the value of "Holdens" are concerned, IMHO values will very much depend, like any car I guess, upon it's rarity, desirability, & condition.
And at this stage, it's far too early to say which way things will go for "Holdens".
Pickles.

[PhilipA]

It is often cars that were a failure on introduction that are worth lots now.
ones that come to mind are E type jaguar, XY XA X B Gts.

Insurance often stoped people buying them. when Ford I once calculated that over 10% of GTs went into the company fleet. Other Fords I can think of are the Escort Twin Cam and Gt1600. All the Ford reps were put into them as the XU 1 killed them in the market.

of course limited edition cars will always make good money especially if sought after when new eg GT HO.

I can say reufully that I thought Edsel Ford had rocks in his box when he mandated the Cobra to get rid of the last of the 2 door bodies. How wrong I was. Nobody should underestimate the power. Of some garish stripes.
regards PhilipA

[Stuck]

There is an EV F1 series. Saw it once on TV. Was weird no sounds but the racing was close.
Energiser vs Duracell ???

[cripesamighty]

Well, these ones are duracell...

[bigwhistle] [biggrin]


Julia Dreyfus Mercedes AA Class Commercial Spoof on Vimeo (https://vimeo.com/254035263)

[pop058]

It is often cars that were a failure on introduction that are worth lots now.
ones that come to mind are E type jaguar, XY XA X B Gts.

Insurance often stoped people buying them. when Ford I once calculated that over 10% of GTs went into the company fleet. Other Fords I can think of are the Escort Twin Cam and Gt1600. All the Ford reps were put into them as the XU 1 killed them in the market.

of course limited edition cars will always make good money especially if sought after when new eg GT HO.

I can say reufully that I thought Edsel Ford had rocks in his box when he mandated the Cobra to get rid of the last of the 2 door bodies. How wrong I was. Nobody should underestimate the power. Of some garish stripes.
regards PhilipA

Just to be pedantic, the Cobra was blue first then painted white over the top [bigwhistle]

[Homestar]

Yeah, I've seen Lloyds & similar "quacking" about the value of Holdens, one of which I have....I've actually had a few over the years.
I remember back in the eighties I bought an HDT VK Group A "the Blue Meanie", and I remember the day after I bought it, Brock split with Holden,...my next door neighbor crowed, "What will that be worth now"?...intimating it'd be worth nothing,....How wrong was He.
As far as the value of "Holdens" are concerned, IMHO values will very much depend, like any car I guess, upon it's rarity, desirability, & condition.
And at this stage, it's far too early to say which way things will go for "Holdens".
Pickles.

Any of their last offerings won't be worth a cracker - you're not going to tell me an Arcadia, Astra, Colorado, 'Commodore', Equinox, Trailblazer or Trax are going to be collectible in any way, shape or form in years to come are you? [biggrin]

Older ones, sure - but the arse has fallen out of the newer ones and won't recover. I do feel sorry for anyone that bought one just before the announcement though, along with the usual depreciation as you screw the number plates on, what sort of additional depreciation has just befallen them...

Interesting - just checked carsales and there are 637 ZB Commodes for sale at the moment - from around $18K with low KM and warranty. Might actually buy one as a run around when then get below $10K - Wonder how long that will take?

[Pickles2]

It continues!
Exclusive: Holden dealers meeting with the Prime Minister this morning after rejecting General Motors’ initial compensation offer | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/830102/exclusive-holden-dealers-meeting-with-the-prime-minister-this-morning-after-rejecting-general-motors-initial-compensation-offer/?fbclid=IwAR3ioSwWcah8dlMkmqbdpqlbU2q4AZrzdRbr79Kq QoHHUbqkqjcaRpUDFe0)
Pickles.

[pop058]

Any of their last offerings won't be worth a cracker - you're not going to tell me an Arcadia, Astra, Colorado, 'Commodore', Equinox, Trailblazer or Trax are going to be collectible in any way, shape or form in years to come are you?

Older ones, sure - but the arse has fallen out of the newer ones and won't recover. I do feel sorry for anyone that bought one just before the announcement though, along with the usual depreciation as you screw the number plates on, what sort of additional depreciation has just befallen them...

Interesting - just checked carsales and there are 637 ZB Commodes for sale at the moment - from around $18K with low KM and warranty. Might actually buy one as a run around when then get below $10K - [B]Wonder how long that will take?

Check again next week. [biggrin]

[scarry]

Any of their last offerings won't be worth a cracker - you're not going to tell me an Arcadia, Astra, Colorado, 'Commodore', Equinox, Trailblazer or Trax are going to be collectible in any way, shape or form in years to come are you? [biggrin]

You forgot about the Captiva,they won't be worth a cracker either.
One of my brothers wives has one,about 5 yrs old.
Its been on a tilt tray 4 times,her cousin also bought one,same time, and its been on a tilt tray 7 times.[bigsad]

Last weekend he bit the bullet,virtually gave it away,replaced it with a Hybrid Camry.[bighmmm]

[Stuck]

It continues!
Exclusive: Holden dealers meeting with the Prime Minister this morning after rejecting General Motors’ initial compensation offer | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/830102/exclusive-holden-dealers-meeting-with-the-prime-minister-this-morning-after-rejecting-general-motors-initial-compensation-offer/?fbclid=IwAR3ioSwWcah8dlMkmqbdpqlbU2q4AZrzdRbr79Kq QoHHUbqkqjcaRpUDFe0)
Pickles.
Good luck with that. Look at the way the state governments handled the Uber invasion of the taxi industry bearing in mind those taxi owners had their investment in a government issued commodity as opposed to owning a glorified franchise.
Taxi driver compensation for Uber is unfair and poorly implemented (http://theconversation.com/taxi-driver-compensation-for-uber-is-unfair-and-poorly-implemented-64354) .

[shanegtr]

The end of Holden came a little quicker than I thought it would. Im surprised that GM just didnt try to sell off all the RHD operations - maybe they did and there was no buyers.


Good luck with that. Look at the way the state governments handled the Uber invasion of the taxi industry bearing in mind those taxi owners had their investment in a government issued commodity as opposed to owning a glorified franchise.
Taxi driver compensation for Uber is unfair and poorly implemented (http://theconversation.com/taxi-driver-compensation-for-uber-is-unfair-and-poorly-implemented-64354) .
I still use taxis to get myself to the airport every second week - mainly on principal because they got well and truly shafted by the government when Uber come in.

[DiscoMick]

Can't imagine the government offering up any actual dollars to the Holden dealers, considering it was this government which killed off car manufacturing in this country.
I don't feel so sorry for the dealer principals, who did very well for a long time, but it's their employees who will get the short end of the pineapple.

[Tombie]

Taxis deserved to get shafted. Most for a couple of decades now have been filthy, rogue and deceptive.

It’s a **** industry and needed to be smashed.

I never Taxi now, Uber or walk....

[JDNSW]

Can't imagine the government offering up any actual dollars to the Holden dealers, considering it was this government which killed off car manufacturing in this country.
I don't feel so sorry for the dealer principals, who did very well for a long time, but it's their employees who will get the short end of the pineapple.

I don't think you can blame any single government - the writing was on the wall right from when Chifley bribed GM to start fully manufacturing cars here. But the real start of the end of the gravy train was the Button Plan, and assured by the reductions in tariffs and the rise in the $A since then.

[scarry]

Can't imagine the government offering up any actual dollars to the Holden dealers, considering it was this government which killed off car manufacturing in this country.
I don't feel so sorry for the dealer principals, who did very well for a long time, but it's their employees who will get the short end of the pineapple.

The government killed the industry in the end,but there were many other issues as well,such as the unions,labour costs,etc,etc,and on it goes.

The bottom line is,produce vehicles that people don't want,then the inevitable will happen.

[incisor]

the whole line of thought and the rhetoric changed over the years from "investing" in industry to help keep the nation viable and the masses fed, to the "subsidizing" line of thought as i see it.... soon as that line of thought became the prevalent one, the industry was doomed

who is it that actually gained anything out of the government of the day stopping that investment ?

[JDNSW]

the whole line of thought and the rhetoric changed over the years from "investing" in industry to help keep the nation viable and the masses fed, to the "subsidizing" line of thought as i see it.... soon as that line of thought became the prevalent one, the industry was doomed

who is it that actually gained anything out of the government of the day stopping that investment ?

Everyone in Australia who did not work in the automotive industry - that is, almost everyone. The problem with "investing" in the motor industry is that it immediately means that the government is giving favourable treatment to a small part of the population, not to mention the shareholders in Detroit. And the costs go beyond the fact that everyone who pays taxes is contributing directly to this. And you have to immediately ask the question "why this industry rather than the rest of industry? Why not, for example, electronics?" If you remember, for many years electronics (which was largely Australian owned) was protected. And they did not get the direct subsidies that the motor industry did (as far as I know).

Most protection historically was by tariff protection rather than direct subsidies like the motor industry, and it is easy to say that this has no losers - but it does. For a start, it means higher prices for the buyers, and restricted availability of whatever the item is. But the other losers are those in export industries, as other countries apply equivalent tariffs to Australia's exports.

Of course, you can argue for the country's self sufficiency, but this comes at a cost - an increasing cost the more you do it. I saw an extreme example of this in the 1980s in Myanmar. We do not want to go there.

[Homestar]

You forgot about the Captiva,they won't be worth a cracker either.
One of my brothers wives has one,about 5 yrs old.
Its been on a tilt tray 4 times,her cousin also bought one,same time, and its been on a tilt tray 7 times.[bigsad]

Last weekend he bit the bullet,virtually gave it away,replaced it with a Hybrid Camry.[bighmmm]

The mighty Craptiva! They aren’t worth a cracker now, let alone in a few years time. [biggrin] I had one as a company car for 2 years - didn’t hate it, it was the diesel AWD and it was very solid on dirt roads, etc and you could throw it about a bit. I didn’t have an issue with mine in that time and I put just shy of 100KKM on it, but a lot of others in our fleet have been dogs. Must have got a Wednesday build. Aweful car overall though, and thirsty too. I didn’t include them as they weren’t in Holdens line up when the axe fell - that happened to the Craptiva a couple of years back.

[Pickles2]

Can't imagine the government offering up any actual dollars to the Holden dealers, considering it was this government which killed off car manufacturing in this country.
I don't feel so sorry for the dealer principals, who did very well for a long time, but it's their employees who will get the short end of the pineapple.
There you go with your "Political" nonsense again, and you are talking rubbish.
This Govt killed off nothing, Holden was always gonna go,...I suppose "this government" was also responsible for Chrsyler, Mitsubishi, Ford, VW, Nissan, and all the other vehicle manufacturers that have left this country.....Wanna tell us why they left too?
You might care to check out the fact that Aussie was the ONLY Country in the World of its population size that was manufacturing ONE model purely for its own population, whilst competing with EIGHTY (more brands sold here than in the UK) different imported brands with multiple models, with virtually no import tariffs, manufactured in countries with far lower manufacturing costs than Aussie.
Just stick to the facts mate, and then come up with the REAL reason why Holden were "axed". So there you go Disco,....come up with what in your opinion is the real reason(s) why Holden has been "axed".
And finally, read the article again, the Dealers are not after anything from the Govt, except assistance, should it be needed, to get fair compensation from GM.
Pickles.

[4bee]

Can't imagine the government offering up any actual dollars to the Holden dealers, considering it was this government which killed off car manufacturing in this country.
I don't feel so sorry for the dealer principals, who did very well for a long time, but it's their employees who will get the short end of the pineapple.

It was my impression that they hoped for the Govt. to screw GM for more dosh ie. a little bit of the reported 20 Billion they have had over the years. Hhmmm. good luck with that

[Pickles2]

It was my impression that they hoped for the Govt. to screw GM for more dosh ie. a little bit of the reported 20 Billion they have had over the years. Hhmmm. good luck with that
Correct.
However, it's a bit early to know what is going to happen at this stage as various dealers have differing agreements, some have only recently embarked on multi million building programs etc etc, so NO-ONE knows who is going to get what at this stage.
Pickles.

[4bee]

Correct.
However, it's a bit early to know what is going to happen at this stage as various dealers have differing agreements, some have only recently embarked on multi million building programs etc etc, so NO-ONE knows who is going to get what at this stage.
Pickles.


We do, SFA.

[scarry]

Correct.
However, it's a bit early to know what is going to happen at this stage as various dealers have differing agreements, some have only recently embarked on multi million building programs etc etc, so NO-ONE knows who is going to get what at this stage.
Pickles.

And more than likely we will never know the exact costs,who got what,if any.

It will all be settled confidentially.

And the media will come out with some guessed figures to fill up the papers.

[101RRS]

There you go with your "Political" nonsense again, and you are talking rubbish.

Pickles.

In your opinion [wink11] - Disco Mick's comment is not nonsense or rubbish - like your comment it his opinion.

[V8Ian]

In your opinion [wink11] - Disco Mick's comment is not nonsense or rubbish - like your comment it his opinion.
Quite true, it's his opinion. His opinion clearly demonstrates his lack knowledge in regard to fiscal outcomes and ramifications.

[DiscoMick]

It's a fact that industry assistance had resulted in certain vehicles being manufactured here rather than being imported - Holden Cruze, Toyota Camry hybrid, Ford Territory etc. It's a fact the withdrawl of assistance resulted in that manufacturing stopping.

I didn't actually mention politics BTW.

It's my opinion that this country could support the manufacture of one vehicle here, if it was also exported. A ute such as the Ranger could be an example. After all, we still make buses, trucks and trains. Many of the same component manufacturers who supplied the car industry now supply the bus, truck and train manufacturers. We also make a lot of caravans.

After all, it's not so long ago that Thailand did not have any vehicle manufacturing industry and was only a small vehicle domestic market, but the Thais have made themselves the 'Detroit of Asia' and we now happily buy their vehicles. Obviously the Thais are less defeatist and more determined than us.

However, it's also my opinion that once you kill off an industry it's very difficult to bring it back, so we will have to look at other industries, such as medical equipment, if we are to remain an advanced country which still 'makes things'.
I try to make my opinions well-based, but disagreement is fine. I'm comfortable in my own skin and don't need to criticise others if we disagree. Life is too short for that rubbish.

[4bee]

Possibly have a good idea sooner than that as 'er indoors lunches with the wife of one of Adelaide's top GMH Dealers that was. Unfortunately, she doesn't touch incahol which could have loosened her tongue.[bigsad]

"Ve haf ozer vays of meking you talk, Fraulein ". [biggrin]

[V8Ian]

Possibly have a good idea sooner than that as 'er indoors lunches with the wife of one of Adelaide's top GMH Dealers that was. Unfortunately, she doesn't touch incahol which could have loosened her tongue.[bigsad]

"Ve haf ozer vays of meking you talk, Fraulein ". [biggrin]
Does she roll 'er own? [bigwhistle]

[4bee]

It's a fact that industry assistance had resulted in certain vehicles being manufactured here rather than being imported - Holden Cruze, Toyota Camry hybrid, Ford Territory etc. It's a fact the withdrawl of assistance resulted in that manufacturing stopping.

I didn't actually mention politics BTW.

It's my opinion that this country could support the manufacture of one vehicle here, if it was also exported. A ute such as the Ranger could be an example. After all, we still make buses, trucks and trains. Many of the same component manufacturers who supplied the car industry now supply the bus, truck and train manufacturers. We also make a lot of caravans.

After all, it's not so long ago that Thailand did not have any vehicle manufacturing industry and was only a small vehicle domestic market, but the Thais have made themselves the 'Detroit of Asia' and we now happily buy their vehicles. Obviously the Thais are less defeatist and more determined than us.

However, it's also my opinion that once you kill off an industry it's very difficult to bring it back, so we will have to look at other industries, such as medical equipment, if we are to remain an advanced country which still 'makes things'.

My opinions are well-based, I think, but disagreement is fine. I'm comfortable in my own skin and don't need to criticise others if we disagree. Life is too short for that rubbish.



Our Mazda CX-3 MAXX is Thai made & the finish & shut lines are far superior to anything Land Rover brought out that I ever saw.

I presume this Standard holds true for the whole Mazda range.

Just sayin'

[4bee]

Does she roll 'er own? [bigwhistle]



Jim Hacker : "Are you thinking what I'm thinking?"


Bernard Wooley: "I don't know what you are thinking Prime Minister, what are you thinking?

[V8Ian]

Our Mazda CX-3 MAXX is Thai made & the finish & shut lines are far superior to anything Land Rover brought out that I ever saw.

I presume this Standard holds true for the whole Mazda range.

Just sayin'
But can you converse and cajole the Mazda, even if you could speak Thai?

Just askin'

[wink11]

[Homestar]

I didn't actually mention politics BTW.

From earlier post -


Can't imagine the government offering up any actual dollars to the Holden dealers, considering it was this government which killed off car manufacturing in this country.

Think someone has hacked your AULRO account mate. 😇😁😉

[4bee]

Our Mazda CX-3 MAXX is Thai made & the finish & shut lines are far superior to anything Land Rover brought out that I ever saw.

I presume this Standard holds true for the whole Mazda range.

Just sayin' From my observations over the years I reckon the famed Australian "Work" Ethic would let the side down.

"NO FRANK, NEAR ENOUGH IS NOT BLOODY GOOD ENOUGH. STOP THE LINE"[biggrin]

[4bee]

But can you converse and cajole the Mazda, even if you could speak Thai?

Just askin'

[wink11]

No mate, & never had to kick **** out of it while referring to it's possible out of wedlock ancestry.

[DiscoMick]

From earlier post -



Think someone has hacked your AULRO account mate. [emoji56][emoji16][emoji6]Where did I mention politics? I just said 'government'. If I was being political I would have named the PM and his government, but that wasn't necessary, as we all know who he is and the damage he did to this country.

[DiscoMick]

Our Mazda CX-3 MAXX is Thai made & the finish & shut lines are far superior to anything Land Rover brought out that I ever saw.

I presume this Standard holds true for the whole Mazda range.

Just sayin'Mazda does quality.

[4bee]

I just said 'government'. If I was being political I would have named the PM and his government, but that wasn't necessary, as we all know who he is and the damage he did to this country.


But but but, there seems to have been so many over the years.[biggrin]

[BradC]

I never Taxi now, Uber or walk....

Uber forced the Taxis to clean up their act big-time. Haven't had a dud taxi since they came along. Prior to that half the cabs I caught I had to hang my head out the window to escape the smell.

I Taxi because I can phone them and they don't require any more personal information or an app on my phone.

[Tombie]

I like Uber from the App point.
I book it, then go about what I’m doing until it nears.
That convenience at a restaurant or venue is hard to beat.

From a pricing perspective. We rang a taxi asked how much from A to B and it was ridiculous.
Opened Uber, put in destination and it was about 30% of the price.
Uber drivers were nearby - no taxi to be seen on busy city street.

[Eevo]

in adelaide, most uber drivers are former taxi drivers.
compared to 24months ago when most uber drivers were australians trying to make some extra money.

[Pickles2]

It's a fact that industry assistance had resulted in certain vehicles being manufactured here rather than being imported - Holden Cruze, Toyota Camry hybrid, Ford Territory etc. It's a fact the withdrawl of assistance resulted in that manufacturing stopping.

I didn't actually mention politics BTW.

It's my opinion that this country could support the manufacture of one vehicle here, if it was also exported. A ute such as the Ranger could be an example. After all, we still make buses, trucks and trains. Many of the same component manufacturers who supplied the car industry now supply the bus, truck and train manufacturers. We also make a lot of caravans.

After all, it's not so long ago that Thailand did not have any vehicle manufacturing industry and was only a small vehicle domestic market, but the Thais have made themselves the 'Detroit of Asia' and we now happily buy their vehicles. Obviously the Thais are less defeatist and more determined than us.

However, it's also my opinion that once you kill off an industry it's very difficult to bring it back, so we will have to look at other industries, such as medical equipment, if we are to remain an advanced country which still 'makes things'.
I try to make my opinions well-based, but disagreement is fine. I'm comfortable in my own skin and don't need to criticise others if we disagree. Life is too short for that rubbish.
"If it was exported",...well ya've got one thing right. BUT it wasn't, so can you tell me WHY Commodore was not exported, or are you going to say "it's (non export) the Government's fault? And Disco, IF it was exported, it wouldn't be being made for just our population would it? Maybe also you can tell me why vehicles are made in Thailand, rather than in Aussie?
Pickles.

[Homestar]

Where did I mention politics? I just said 'government'. If I was being political I would have named the PM and his government, but that wasn't necessary, as we all know who he is and the damage he did to this country.

You said "THIS government" in your earlier post I quoted and again just now, you made another political jibe, which I've just reported to discuss with the mods as that was clear and blatant.

[Homestar]

I like Uber from the App point.
I book it, then go about what I’m doing until it nears.
That convenience at a restaurant or venue is hard to beat.

From a pricing perspective. We rang a taxi asked how much from A to B and it was ridiculous.
Opened Uber, put in destination and it was about 30% of the price.
Uber drivers were nearby - no taxi to be seen on busy city street.

Yep, heaps more convenient and heaps cheaper. I travel to and from the City a bit from my Girlfriends place by Uber, the only time we took a Taxi was when work paid for it for our breakup and they have an account with one of the Taxi mobs - I cringed when I saw the price of the taxi ride - it was over twice what I pay by Uber.

[Tombie]

in adelaide, most uber drivers are former taxi drivers.
compared to 24months ago when most uber drivers were australians trying to make some extra money.

I noticed that, and when selecting an Uber - if a Taxi shows up - I cancel.

[Eevo]

I noticed that, and when selecting an Uber - if a Taxi shows up - I cancel.


ive never had a taxi turn up.
talking to the uber drivers, a lot of them tell me they used to drive taxis

[DiscoMick]

If the taxi industry operates the way it used to, the driver might only get 40% of takings, with the bulk going to the owner of the taxi. I'm not sure of how much of the Uber charge goes to Uber and how much to the driver.

[ramblingboy42]

...and so, in the context of this thread, we could have a race uber v taxi

[DiscoMick]

"If it was exported",...well ya've got one thing right. BUT it wasn't, so can you tell me WHY Commodore was not exported, or are you going to say "it's (non export) the Government's fault? And Disco, IF it was exported, it wouldn't be being made for just our population would it? Maybe also you can tell me why vehicles are made in Thailand, rather than in Aussie?
Pickles.Some Commodores were exported, but it's certainly true that exports are essential to making manufacturing here viable.
The Thai Government put in place a huge package of measures to entice car companies to manufacture there for export.

[Eevo]

If the taxi industry operates the way it used to, the driver might only get 40% of takings, with the bulk going to the owner of the taxi. I'm not sure of how much of the Uber charge goes to Uber and how much to the driver.


with uber its about 80% that goes to the driver, but they also have to supply the car.

[4bee]

How does their Insurance work for a Private car under Hire or is it not a private car anymore?

[scarry]

People talk about using Australian made products,looks like Uber is overseas owned.

Pretty well all the taxis were owned by locals.

Sure,Uber is cheaper and more often convenient,and the Taxis industry did need a shakeup.

Have a look at this.

Its a bit old i know.


Uber Australia grosses $785m, pays $8.5m tax (https://www.afr.com/technology/uber-australia-makes-785m-pays-8-5m-tax-20190501-p51j62)

We wouldn't use an Uber or a Taxi once in a year,we have no need to use them.

Freight and courier companies for work are what we use all day every day,some of them need a good shake up.

[PhilipA]

Commodore exports failed because the main markets put 2 litre limits on motor vehicles with swingeing rego costs and import tariffs on for anything over 2 litres.
holden made a 2 litre Commodore and assembled it in Thailand as well as Camira but it was not well accepted and they found it hard to get local components of good quality.
ther was also very high rego costs for sedans ,so most people bought utes and canopies and fitted them out in the back.
Isuzu was always there and a market leader in trucks and utes so Isuzu based utes were the first exported.
Malysia intros the Proton and put enormous tariffs on imports. As an aside I sold all the leftover Holden parts to the Australian mob.
Singapore has enormous restrictions on car ownership .
As you probably know nobody in Oz would buy the 2 litre Commodore.
regards PhilipA

[Pickles2]

Totally correct there, before Nissan, Volvo and Mercedes became involved, Chrysler had applied to join the V8s with their 300c and bring a third brand in but was told NO - it is not a Holden or a Ford and thats all the competition will accept so no 300C also racing against Ford and Holden.
I don't quite understand what you are saying in this post. So, just to clarify, is it your understanding that V8 Supercars said NO to Chrysler''s' request to compete with their 300C?
Pickles.

[Pickles2]

Commodore exports failed because the main markets put 2 litre limits on motor vehicles with swingeing rego costs and import tariffs on for anything over 2 litres.
holden made a 2 litre Commodore and assembled it in Thailand as well as Camira but it was not well accepted and they found it hard to get local components of good quality.
ther was also very high rego costs for sedans ,so most people bought utes and canopies and fitted them out in the back.
Isuzu was always there and a market leader in trucks and utes so Isuzu based utes were the first exported.
Malysia intros the Proton and put enormous tariffs on imports. As an aside I sold all the leftover Holden parts to the Australian mob.
Singapore has enormous restrictions on car ownership .
As you probably know nobody in Oz would buy the 2 litre Commodore.
regards PhilipA
Interesting post, I was not aware that a Commodore of any description was made, in any shape or form, in Thailand.
The only 2L Commodore I'm aware of was made in the VC/VH era around 30 yrs ago, and it was made in Aussie. The car was an absolute disaster and I'm aware that some were exported after 4 cyl sales in Aussie ceased. But, I'm not aware that Commodores or Camiras were ever "manufactured' in Thailand.
Another point, a car assembled in Thailand wouldn't be an "export" would it, as distinct with a car assembled in Aus, & "exported"?
I'm not aware of any of this stuff, so if you could provide some links etc, that would be good.
Always willing to learn, Pickles.

[Tombie]

If the taxi industry operates the way it used to, the driver might only get 40% of takings, with the bulk going to the owner of the taxi. I'm not sure of how much of the Uber charge goes to Uber and how much to the driver.

That’s one aspect I couldn’t give a crap about.

[Tombie]

People talk about using Australian made products,looks like Uber is overseas owned.

Pretty well all the taxis were owned by locals.

Sure,Uber is cheaper and more often convenient,and the Taxis industry did need a shakeup.

Have a look at this.

Its a bit old i know.


Uber Australia grosses $785m, pays $8.5m tax (https://www.afr.com/technology/uber-australia-makes-785m-pays-8-5m-tax-20190501-p51j62)

We wouldn't use an Uber or a Taxi once in a year,we have no need to use them.

Freight and courier companies for work are what we use all day every day,some of them need a good shake up.

Of the drivers I know up here (Taxi) and the Only Licence holder in the region - almost all but enough to get by on - from our “Aussie” drivers is sent back to their families - almost exclusively in India.

I’d expect the same applies for most of them.

[Tins]

Of the drivers I know up here (Taxi) and the Only Licence holder in the region - almost all but enough to get by on - from our “Aussie” drivers is sent back to their families - almost exclusively in India.

I’d expect the same applies for most of them.

Apropos of nothing, you post was number 202. [smilebigeye]

[Tins]

If the taxi industry operates the way it used to, the driver might only get 40% of takings, with the bulk going to the owner of the taxi.

Dunno about anywhere else, but rule of thumb in Vic was the driver took 50% of the meter. He/she also took anything above that, such as tips, off meter trips or the stupid 75% shared rule we had here. The owner paid all expenses out of his 50%. But the owner was making $$$ out of the plates, which used to be an investment.

IMO. the Taxi industry in this country was a disgrace, and had been for nearly 30 years. The cars were appalling, the drivers knew nothing except the airport, the GPS dispatch system got rid of the only drivers that were any good, the "first available" mantra meant 'good luck with that mate', especially on Friday night, and the only reason to get in a cab if one DID turn up was because by that time you were desperate. Now, i know that that is a whole lot of generalisations, and I know that there are some fabulous cabbies out there, with great cars, but they became fewer and fewer.

I have only used two Ubers. One in Dandenong, who turned up in a spotless car inside of 5 minutes. He didn't really like it when I told him to go a different way from what his GPS told him, but maybe he learned something. The other was in Townsville, and he also had a spotless car, and knew where he was going, which was lucky because I didn't.

Like Uber or not, they blew a wind through the industry it needed. Victoria's knee jerk deregulation was perhaps not so well thought out.

Tell you one thing though; Uber drivers are far safer than taxi drivers. I mean, personally, not as drivers. They don't need to catty cash. A number of cabbies in Melbourne have died for their takings. There is no way to find their killers, if it was a street pickup especially. Uber has the credit card details. Best paper trail there is.

In case you were wondering, or even care, I moonlighted as a cabby here for a number of years, between jobs and wives. It can be a lot of fun, and it can be boring, and it can be ****ing scary.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, I know what you mean, because I also moonlighted as a taxi and limo driver for extra cash for a while. The things you do.
Uber drivers are certainly safer because of no cash carried.
Probably also less likely to have to hose out the cab after a passenger vomited in it. Passengers also can't do a runner without paying.
BTW where I worked, some owners took an extra 10% for fuel.

[Tote]

Very little sympathy for the Taxi industry, their monopoly got them what they deserved. I remember waiting three hours for a taxi on a Friday night in Canberra with repeated calls to the taxi company ignored. Similarly booking cabs for pickups that simply never arrived. I got in a taxi at Sydney airport to go locally to my accomodation in April last year after my flight was delated by a day and got abuse from the cabbie because the fare was too small, so not much has changed. Ubers don't usually smell like ass either.


Regards,
Tote

[Tombie]

Apropos of nothing, you post was number 202. [smilebigeye]

I mean I don’t care how much margin the driver makes.
It’s a service, if they aren’t making money - quit.

[Tins]

Probably also less likely to have to hose out the cab after a passenger vomited in it. Passengers also can't do a runner without paying.

I hear ya, i hear ya. In Vic, legally that was the end of your night ( it was at night of course ), cos of OHS, failing to provide a safe workplace.



BTW where I worked, some owners took an extra 10% for fuel.

That sucks. Hard enough to make a quid in a cab without that. When i drove owners were in clover. Not so much now but, at least in Vic.

FWIW, I drove for some good blokes, who were mostly Italian, but I also drove for some mercenary *****. I won't say what they mostly were. Nest bloke I drove for was Oirish.

[Tins]

I mean I don’t care how much margin the driver makes.
It’s a service, if they aren’t making money - quit.

Mike, 202 was a Holden engine number... It was a little jest on my part...

[Tins]

Mike, 202 was a Holden engine number... It was a little jest on my part...

Capacity, not number. Useless lump except in hot form.

[Tins]

Very little sympathy for the Taxi industry, their monopoly got them what they deserved. I remember waiting three hours for a taxi on a Friday night in Canberra with repeated calls to the taxi company ignored. Similarly booking cabs for pickups that simply never arrived. I got in a taxi at Sydney airport to go locally to my accomodation in April last year after my flight was delated by a day and got abuse from the cabbie because the fare was too small, so not much has changed. Ubers don't usually smell like ass either.


Regards,
Tote

I agree 1000000% with ALL of that.

Most folk don't understand what was the Taxi industry. Including most of the drivers. I'm happy to talk about the booking systems, the pre-booked calls, the number of people taking calls, the more recent system that recognises your phone number and sends a cab to your last known, and specifically the rules about ranks, especially airport ranks. But that could go on for days and none of us want that. I will say this though. The fastest money a taxi could make was the flagfall. Any driver who didn't understand that was an idiot, so I guess that's most of them. The industry, to give it airs, is about 80 years out of date. Uber kills it, and so will Lyft if it comes here. Uber now needs competition. Even a smart guy with a few bucks and an app could work.

I want to tell a story, one that hopefully illustrates the state of cabs. This was around 20 years ago.

It was a Sunday, which could be good or bad for a driver, depending. This is Melbourne. About 10:30. I'm sitting on the Peel St Rank ( Outside the Queen Vic Market ), having had a decent morning. I'm the only car on the rank. Then a cab pulls in behind me. A very well dressed woman got out of this not so well dressed car. She grabs her case out of the boot ( no help offered from the driver ), slams the door, kicks it, and stomps down to my car: She yells at me " Do you know where ****ing South Yarra is??". I say, of course I do, it's like the third suburb of Melbourne ever. She yells " well HE ****ing doesn't!!!!".

20 years ago::: Now it's way worse. Any wonder nobody trusts cabs in cities?

[Tombie]

Mike, 202 was a Holden engine number... It was a little jest on my part...

Oh those leaky knocking motors [emoji41]

[Tins]

Oh those leaky knocking motors [emoji41]

You're older than I thought..

Didn't mind the 186 though. Then I grew up and got an MG, with the B Series...

[3toes]

Uber is a classic built it and flog it tech business. Find a way around the existing regulations. Exploit the loop hole to make investors money. This will be at the expense of those who are doing the work. Wrap it up as innovation for public consumption. Is a well tried and proven tech business plan so nothing ground breaking there.

Does not make a profit which is always going to happen next year. Fancy power point slides to lure in more investors who will all make a fat margin when sell to market. Market will tell investors who are going to buy to ignore losses as will be profitable tomorrow. Market takes their slice of sale price buyer beware

If they can find will buyers to take it on those who invested before sale take home the cash. It is the new owners who are left with an unprofitable and debt laden business that they either figure out how to make profitable or lose their shirts.

Most taxi companies have the same app technology as Uber so that advantage is now gone. Uber has market recognition. Have seen people attempting to use the app in places Uber does not operate

In UK taxi market has seen Uber take business. Has been people looking for extra cash who have taken it up not taxi drivers (generalisation). Problem is the high turnover of drivers as there is not enough in it for the driver after costs which they find higher than what is suggested in the marketing. Also there is no limit on the number of drivers and Uber will sign up anyone who asks. They make money from the total fares not being impacted by individual driver income. So enough fares can be difficult to pick up due to other drivers being closer

An Uber driver should not be driving a car which is under finance as the finance contract will say for private use or travel to a place of work. One if the lessons drivers learn is how high the depreciation curve is on a car that is driven taxi mileage.

A number of finance companies have attempted to put together funding packages for Uber drivers. All have withdrawn - Even Ubers own effort- as the bad debt levels are too high.

Then government had noticed the increase in traffic due to these cars circling around the block in places they think will have work which adds to air pollution and congestion

[Tins]

Uber is a classic built it and flog it tech business. Find a way around the existing regulations. Exploit the loop hole to make investors money. This will be at the expense of those who are doing the work. Wrap it up as innovation for public consumption. Is a well tried and proven tech business plan so nothing ground breaking there.

Does not make a profit which is always going to happen next year. Fancy power point slides to lure in more investors who will all make a fat margin when sell to market. Market will tell investors who are going to buy to ignore losses as will be profitable tomorrow. Market takes their slice of sale price buyer beware

If they can find will buyers to take it on those who invested before sale take home the cash. It is the new owners who are left with an unprofitable and debt laden business that they either figure out how to make profitable or lose their shirts.

Most taxi companies have the same app technology as Uber so that advantage is now gone. Uber has market recognition. Have seen people attempting to use the app in places Uber does not operate

In UK taxi market has seen Uber take business. Has been people looking for extra cash who have taken it up not taxi drivers (generalisation). Problem is the high turnover of drivers as there is not enough in it for the driver after costs which they find higher than what is suggested in the marketing. Also there is no limit on the number of drivers and Uber will sign up anyone who asks. They make money from the total fares not being impacted by individual driver income. So enough fares can be difficult to pick up due to other drivers being closer

An Uber driver should not be driving a car which is under finance as the finance contract will say for private use or travel to a place of work. One if the lessons drivers learn is how high the depreciation curve is on a car that is driven taxi mileage.

A number of finance companies have attempted to put together funding packages for Uber drivers. All have withdrawn - Even Ubers own effort- as the bad debt levels are too high.

Then government had noticed the increase in traffic due to these cars circling around the block in places they think will have work which adds to air pollution and congestion

It's difficult to compare the UK market with anywhere else. You guys screwed the typical London Cabbie, with his "knowledge" and all, by allowing minicabs. London had something absolutely unique, and now it's gone, and for what? That ain't Ubers fault ( I'm not a fan of Uber, but I CAN see the attraction for a driver ), it's the market. I'd take an Uber in London long before I'd take a minicab. I'd take a black cab over both of them, but their days are sadly numbered, and that is the fault of the minicab, not Uber. Well, that's how I see it.

[DiscoMick]

I could tell some stories about Thai taxis, but we're way off topic here already.

To sort of get back on topic, many taxis were Holdens, but now Camry hybrids have taken over, because they are said to be cheaper to run, at least for short distances, than cars on gas.

[PhilipA]

Pickles I was in The Oz Embassy in Thailand at the time.
We had a locally assembled Camira wagon 2 litre in the Embassy fleet ( also an Oz Falcon).
I was giving solace to Holden execs as part of my job.

They gave up very quickly as they could not get local components of sufficient quality and those they did get assembled did not sell.
This was late 80s. So I think the motor was a 2 litre version of the Nissan engine.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

I could tell some stories about Thai taxis, but we're way off topic here already.

To sort of get back on topic, many taxis were Holdens, but now Camry hybrids have taken over, because they are said to be cheaper to run, at least for short distances, than cars on gas.

They do seem to be from my experience. Have driven Hybrid Camrys in 2 occasions for a week at a time around cities for work and both times have averaged just on 6 LP100KM, which I was pretty impressed by. Nice car to drive too, I also drive one each time the Hilux gets serviced as the Service Manager gives me his vehicle for the day.

[Gav 110]

Pickles I was in The Oz Embassy in Thailand at the time.
We had a locally assembled Camira wagon 2 litre in the Embassy fleet ( also an Oz Falcon).
I was giving solace to Holden execs as part of my job.

They gave up very quickly as they could not get local components of sufficient quality and those they did get assembled did not sell.
This was late 80s. So I think the motor was a 2 litre version of the Nissan engine.
Regards PhilipA

Sounds a lot like the old Statesman
Sold in Japan with a Mazda rotary
HQ I think
[emoji1531][emoji1531]

[V8Ian]

Sounds a lot like the old Statesman
Sold in Japan with a Mazda rotary
HQ I think
[emoji1531][emoji1531]
Premier, not Statesman.

[Gav 110]

Premier, not Statesman.

Thanks Ian
Might have been the hj not the q
Memory not my forte
Give it 2 days and it will all come back
[emoji208][emoji208]

[V8Ian]

Mazda Roadpacer AP - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_Roadpacer_AP)

[DiscoMick]

Wasn't the Statesman also sold in the Middle East?

[3toes]

A little old however gives some insight into Holden exports during the sixties

General Motors Holden: Export Holden | NFSA (https://www.nfsa.gov.au/collection/curated/general-motors-holden-export-holden)

Commodore with a 4 cylinder engine and Gemini were CKD to Indonesia. Perhaps this was connected to the Thai cars mentioned earlier

More recently Holden had 40% ( from memory) of Middle East market. They were also still exporting Commodore to the Caribbean and South America and other places

Toyota Camry production in Australia was also dependent on exports to Middle East

Mitsubishi was exporting the Magna to UK and USA in the mid to late nineties. When inspecting the Magna here in the U.K. there was a plate saying it had been exported by Holden. Not sure what the reason was perhaps they used the Holden car export infrastructure to move the cars to the U.K. ? Interesting that here the Magna was seen as a BMW 5 series competitor.

[Tins]

Sounds a lot like the old Statesman
Sold in Japan with a Mazda rotary
HQ I think
[emoji1531][emoji1531]

Mazda Roadacer. HX

[Tins]

Mazda Roadacer. HX

Premier, not Statesman.

[V8Ian]

The Statesman was exported to Japan, marketed as the Isuzu Statesman.

[scarry]

The later Monaro went to the US,i know a guy who had one,and had it 'tuned',as he didn't think it had enough punch.[bighmmm]

[Tombie]

The later Monaro went to the US,i know a guy who had one,and had it 'tuned',as he didn't think it had enough punch.[bighmmm]

Sounds about right... anything sub 800hp is considered VERY tame now.

[Gav 110]

Watching abc last night and this came up

Holden'''s enduring appeal in Indonesia reveals a '''Kingswood Country''' time forgot - ABC News (https://amp.abc.net.au/article/12008218)

Seems they were badged as chevies

Also remember looking at a Monaro a few years ago
South African Chevrolet SS

FEATURE - 1971 Chevrolet SS (export HG Monaro) - JUST CARS (https://www.justcars.com.au/news-and-reviews/feature-1971-chevrolet-ss-export-hg-monaro-/13210)

[pop058]

Watching abc last night and this came up

Holden'''s enduring appeal in Indonesia reveals a '''Kingswood Country''' time forgot - ABC News (https://amp.abc.net.au/article/12008218)

Seems they were badged as chevies

Also remember looking at a Monaro a few years ago
South African Chevrolet SS

FEATURE - 1971 Chevrolet SS (export HG Monaro) - JUST CARS (https://www.justcars.com.au/news-and-reviews/feature-1971-chevrolet-ss-export-hg-monaro-/13210)

GMH and Ford exported a few to the RSA. One of the better known would be the XW/XY Fairmont GT, affectionately known as a "Rhino ". Sent over (generally) in bits and put together in South Africa. Helped a mate (my trailer) pick one up late last year.

158352

It was not "HO down the Hume" but a nice ride anyway. [thumbsupbig]

158353

[Tombie]

All 351 Fairmont in RSA have the sought after JG33 ID...

[pop058]

All 351 Fairmont in RSA have the sought after JG33 ID...

MS33 actually

158354

[Tombie]

MS33 actually

158354

Think GT Coupes [emoji6]

[Tins]

The Statesman was exported to Japan, marketed as the Isuzu Statesman.

Rotary, was it? No, of course not.

This was one of the most egregious pieces of badge engineering EVER. Makes the Lexcen and Nissan Ute look spectacular. That said, find an original, genuine "Isuzu By GM" Statesman and you may make a bob or two. They couldn't give the things away, and that makes them very rare.

[scarry]

It was called a Roadpacer in Japan,and they were Premiers.

Fitted with a Mazda rotary,around HJ,HX,from memory.

OOPs,looks like i came in a bit late[bighmmm]:bat:

But i was correct,i think[bighmmm]

[Tins]

It was called a Roadpacer in Japan,and they were Premiers.

Fitted with a Mazda rotary,around HJ,HX,from memory.

OOPs,looks like i came in a bit late[bighmmm]:bat:

Lol. #226 and #227. But who really cares? We both got it right.

[PhilipA]

I was crossing the Zambezi by ferry near Kasane from Botswana to Zambia about 3 years ago.
First unexpected unit off ferry was a defender being pushed!
Second was a semi with the rear bogie chained up and one tire removed.
Third was a Falcon Outback Ute sitting forlornly at the Zambia customs post.
I asked myself how the hell did that get there?
also went over to a broke lying over about 20 plastic Kerrie’s and asked what was in them. Petrol he said and gave me a card. Cheapest in Zambia he said.

Regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

The news just keeps getting worse for Holden.


Holden sales slump after brand calls it quits in Australia (https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/consumer/2020/03/04/holden-sales-plunge-australia/)

[Tins]

The news just keeps getting worse for Holden.


Holden sales slump after brand calls it quits in Australia (https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/consumer/2020/03/04/holden-sales-plunge-australia/)

Let it go. After all, that's what they did. Holden was a social experiment, championed by a Prime Minister. When did that ever work?? Admittedly, Holden lasted longer than some of the pollies schemes, but it was a dud, from the moment it started.

[Pickles2]

Not much more to be said about this, but one of the points I made is that exports of the Commodore could've made a big difference.
I was looking at one of my books the other day & came up with some interesting figures for the CV8 Monaro which was sold LHD in the States as a Pontiac GTO. In Australia there were a total of only 15910 Monaros sold, whereas there were 41813 sold LHD in the States as a GTO, nearly three times Aussie sales. It is in fact the U.S. sales that enabled CV8 to run through to VZ,....because of the Pontiac GTO program, which was championed by high profile GM "Legend" Bob Lutz, who saw the CV8 in Aus, & promoted it in the USA..
Had the VE/VF Commodore been able to receive the same sort of "promotion" by GM as the CV8, maybe things could be a bit different now. No certainty of course, but the CV8 is a good example of what could be possible with proper promotion.
Pickles

[scarry]

Not much more to be said about this, but one of the points I made is that exports of the Commodore could've made a big difference.
I was looking at one of my books the other day & came up with some interesting figures for the CV8 Monaro which was sold LHD in the States as a Pontiac GTO. In Australia there were a total of only 15910 Monaros sold, whereas there were 41813 sold LHD in the States as a GTO, nearly three times Aussie sales. It is in fact the U.S. sales that enabled CV8 to run through to VZ,....because of the Pontiac GTO program, which was championed by high profile GM "Legend" Bob Lutz, who saw the CV8 in Aus, & promoted it in the USA..
Had the VE/VF Commodore been able to receive the same sort of "promotion" by GM as the CV8, maybe things could be a bit different now. No certainty of course, but the CV8 is a good example of what could be possible with proper promotion.
Pickles

The US police were also looking at CV8,and testing them.
The vehicles they used to use were all rear wheel drive.
They changed to front wheel drive,and many of the older officers could not come to grips with the way they handled,and also when hitting the rear corner of another vehicle to spin it around.

But for some reason,i don't think they(US police) bought any CV8's.

[Tombie]

Not much more to be said about this, but one of the points I made is that exports of the Commodore could've made a big difference.
I was looking at one of my books the other day & came up with some interesting figures for the CV8 Monaro which was sold LHD in the States as a Pontiac GTO. In Australia there were a total of only 15910 Monaros sold, whereas there were 41813 sold LHD in the States as a GTO, nearly three times Aussie sales. It is in fact the U.S. sales that enabled CV8 to run through to VZ,....because of the Pontiac GTO program, which was championed by high profile GM "Legend" Bob Lutz, who saw the CV8 in Aus, & promoted it in the USA..
Had the VE/VF Commodore been able to receive the same sort of "promotion" by GM as the CV8, maybe things could be a bit different now. No certainty of course, but the CV8 is a good example of what could be possible with proper promotion.
Pickles

Agree with what you wrote. It was never going to be though.

Part of the USG bailing out GM was that they had to return to their internal manufacturing as priority. Not import.

That was the global death knock for GMs external divisions.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, exports were the key.
Another wasted opportunity was the Ford Territory, particularly the last version with AWD and the 2.7 TDV6. I was looking at a nice one at Sheffield on Saturday and thinking what an excellent package it was. It would have been perfect for the USA.
The Ford Ranger designed here is a big seller internationally and could have been a huge export winner. Car plants are highly automated now so the argument about wages being too high really doesn't stack up.

[scarry]

Yes, exports were the key.
Another wasted opportunity was the Ford Territory, particularly the last version with AWD and the 2.7 TDV6. I was looking at a nice one at Sheffield on Saturday and thinking what an excellent package it was. It would have been perfect for the USA.
The Ford Ranger designed here is a big seller internationally and could have been a huge export winner. Car plants are highly automated now so the argument about wages being too high really doesn't stack up.

The Territory was the only vehicle that kept the local manufacturing going for the last few years.
Without it Ford Aus would have been gone years ago.

Its not just wages that are an issue here,its red tape,legislation,compliances,unions,etc,etc.
As anyone that runs a company here would know.

Also many other countries subsidise manufacturing which has been stopped here.

[Pickles2]

Yes, exports were the key.
Another wasted opportunity was the Ford Territory, particularly the last version with AWD and the 2.7 TDV6. I was looking at a nice one at Sheffield on Saturday and thinking what an excellent package it was. It would have been perfect for the USA.
The Ford Ranger designed here is a big seller internationally and could have been a huge export winner. Car plants are highly automated now so the argument about wages being too high really doesn't stack up.
Ford Territory?.....Agree 1000%,...a truly unique vehicle that would've been a desirable export to many parts of the World, and it could've been, with some support from Dearborn.
Pickles.

[rick130]

The Territory was the only vehicle that kept the local manufacturing going for the last few years.
Without it Ford Aus would have been gone years ago.

Its not just wages that are an issue here,its red tape,legislation,compliances,unions,etc,etc.
As anyone that runs a company here would know.

Also many other countries subsidise manufacturing which has been stopped here.

Yep, compliance costs are the real killer in the western world IMO, not the actual wage costs. ;)

[3toes]

Compliance are to regulations that have been agreed at a UN body that operates out of Switzerland. They have been around since the fifties setting minimum standards for global use. Countries / manufacturers are then able to make specifications that meet or exceed these minimum standards. All the motor manufacturers are well represented along with governments and the NGO community.

The standards are generally followed by Europe where as the USA sees exceeding them as important hence their more advanced crash and pollution standards. In the mid sixties to the mid seventies Australia was a keen member pressing for higher crash and pollution standards.

What you see labelled as Euro emissions standards are actual those agreed here just someone was able to add Euro to the standard name for political purposes.

[rick130]

Compliance are to regulations that have been agreed at a UN body that operates out of Switzerland. They have been around since the fifties setting minimum standards for global use. Countries / manufacturers are then able to make specifications that meet or exceed these minimum standards. All the motor manufacturers are well represented along with governments and the NGO community.

The standards are generally followed by Europe where as the USA sees exceeding them as important hence their more advanced crash and pollution standards. In the mid sixties to the mid seventies Australia was a keen member pressing for higher crash and pollution standards.

What you see labelled as Euro emissions standards are actual those agreed here just someone was able to add Euro to the standard name for political purposes.I was talking business/employee compliance costs,, not ADR type standards [emoji6]