Buying a Welder for Newbie

[4xsama]

Hi All,

I'm looking to buy a welder (and there hasn't been a welder thread for nearly 12 months!!) and have zero knowledge beyond using a stick welder many years ago. I'll try to be logical in structuring a question but will no doubt miss something. Anyway, here goes;



Use - Domestic and single phase, portable so inside and out use
Purpose - Making gate frames, window frames, minor structural box section assemblies around the home and some limited auto/motor bike work
Budget - no idea but not exorbitant. I understand stick is the cheapest too but don't understand the cost implications for regular use.
Quality of welds - important but I understand a lot is up to the 'driver' not the tool and that stick always needs some clean up
Materials - Steel, aluminium, possibly stainless
Level of competency - Used a stick ages ago. Was ok at it but needed help in setting up the welder so I didn't blow holes in the material. I'd say I was pretty good with learning to use tools so am willing to put some time into learning


Any tips on what is most appropriate.

Cheers

[Dorian]

If you really want to do Aluminium and Stainless, then you've put yourself into the TIG category. You would want to spend more than $1K to get a half decent TIG plus a bottle $400 for a E, etc.
MIG will do aluminium and stainless but Al is harder to get a handle on and stainless comes out OK, not great.
I'd start with a budget stick, you can get a semi decent inverter unit that will run smooth as and is ideal for 2 to 5 mm steel, for a spend of less than $300 you can get a decent unit for around the house type stuff.
My advice is to get going on Stick first. I have a TIG but I've bought a little stick unit because it's just handy to have, especially when tacking up.

Cheers Glen

[Homestar]

What he said. [biggrin]

Unless you want to drop a bundle on an AC TIG setup or slightly less on a MIG and spool gun, drop Aluminium from your list. Both MIG and TIG require gas which as noted costs several hundred extra to get into.

Price wise, a half decent MMA setup (Stick) welder allow $300 to $500 - there are MUCH cheaper ones, but generally a few hundred dollars gets you a nice little inverter unit that is light and easy to use.

If you had a bit more coin to drop, then a MIG setup with bottle of MIG mix allow around $1000

Cheapest AC TIGS go for around $800 but I wouldn't touch one of these myself - next step up is around $1300 but even these aren't the best so you can see how quickly this gets expensive. $2000 buys a nice unit, $4000+ buys a bloody brilliant one. Again, add the $400 for a gas bottle - Aluminium uses straight argon, so you cant use the bottle you bought for your MIG either - bit of a bugger eh... [biggrin]

Personally since getting my TIG, I use that the most and I love it, but a quick job will see me drag out the MIG. I do have an older cheaper stick welder I take in the ute if I need to do something for someone - the good machines stay at home.

[4xsama]

Thanks for the advice. Sounds like a small stick unit is the way to go. I need to get a face shield, gloves etc too.

Would somewhere like Total Tools be a good starting place? (I have a mate who works there)

[Homestar]

Yep, there’s usually a decent range of beginners stuff in Total Tools. Look at duty cycle of the machines - find one with the highest duty cycle, it will be a better built machine, but for the odd job here and there, almost anything will do. 👍

[Homestar]

This wouldn’t be a bad option IMO. Powercraft is Lincolns budget line built in China but meets their quality control. I have a Powercraft multi process machine that I just use as a MIG and it has served me well and has ok specs for its price. As a general handyman/occasional unit, it would be good. Easy to carry around or take in the car too if needed. Has a 15 amp plug - there is a 130 amp version with a 10 amp plug on it too if that’s needed. the Ezystrike feature works well - I have demoed one of these at Lincoln and they are very easy to use.

Lincoln 180A Arc/Tig Powercraft 185 Inverter Welder K690591 | Total Tools (https://www.totaltools.com.au/142185-lincoln-180a-arc-tig-powercraft-185-inverter-welder-k690591)

[W&KO]

Yep as homestar mentioned the powercraft inverter range go pretty good.

My boiler makers have one for 10amp out let and never complain.

I’ve got a power craft 131 Along with some 16TC Rods

Powercraft 131 Inverter Welder 130 Amp Package K69041-1P (https://www.gasweld.com.au/lincoln-powercraft-131-inverter-welder-130-amp-k69041-1-lin)

[PWat]

I recently bought one of these Gas/Gasless MIG because I'm building a slide-on camper unit:
Sydney Tools (https://sydneytools.com.au/product/italco-150m-150-amp-transformer-glas-gasless-welder)
Bunnings and other suppliers have similar systems - some need a 15Amp power supply.

Stainless or aluminium welding were not considered.

Quite a few boilermaker mates recommended MIG over stick due to ease of use / learning. They all use MIG or TIG at work.

An auto-darkening helmet was another $100 plus $50 for gloves etc.

I learnt via hints from mates and YouTube & practiced using gasless flux wire. After 10 hours learning/practice I built some jerry can brackets and after another 5 or so hours I considered myself competent enough for the real job. I then bought gas and thinner wire and it was much easier.

You can get MIG gas from Bunnings at a fairly reasonable cost - $100 for the bottle deposit + $100 each exchange.

https://www.bunnings.com.au/coregas-trade-n-go-gas-size-d-mig-shielding-gas_p5910386

[Bigbjorn]

I recently bought one of these Gas/Gasless MIG because I'm building a slide-on camper unit:
Sydney Tools (https://sydneytools.com.au/product/italco-150m-150-amp-transformer-glas-gasless-welder)
Bunnings and other suppliers have similar systems - some need a 15Amp power supply.

Stainless or aluminium welding were not considered.

Quite a few boilermaker mates recommended MIG over stick due to ease of use / learning. They all use MIG or TIG at work.

An auto-darkening helmet was another $100 plus $50 for gloves etc.

I learnt via hints from mates and YouTube & practiced using gasless flux wire. After 10 hours learning/practice I built some jerry can brackets and after another 5 or so hours I considered myself competent enough for the real job. I then bought gas and thinner wire and it was much easier.

You can get MIG gas from Bunnings at a fairly reasonable cost - $100 for the bottle deposit + $100 each exchange.

https://www.bunnings.com.au/coregas-trade-n-go-gas-size-d-mig-shielding-gas_p5910386

Just remember if using mig or tig outdoors to set up wind protection. My old TAFE instructor used to stress this and constantly remind the class that "the beat of a butterfly's wing will disturb the gas shield".

[Homestar]

Also remember that although MIG is easier to get going with, getting good penetration on thicker steel is harder than with stick so if you’re doing anything structural with decent size material, stick is better idea - easy to strike an arc with the amps turned up too. [emoji106]

[Blknight.aus]

the aldi combo units do alright and if you set it up to run gassless gives you some great flexability (comes with the kit to run gas inc regulator)

if you get something inverter driven, make sure you power it off of something that produces its power from proper swinging magnets not frequency chopping.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Choose your own weapon. Good welders are good, bad ones will have you cursing the day you bought them.
Also worth noting, the standard 'gasless' wire spec - E71T-11 is recommended for single pass only... build this fact into your weld joint design.

[Bigbjorn]

Also remember that although MIG is easier to get going with, getting good penetration on thicker steel is harder than with stick so if you’re doing anything structural with decent size material, stick is better idea - easy to strike an arc with the amps turned up too. [emoji106]

Spot on!

[Blknight.aus]

Spot on!

no, you need a spot welder for that.

[Homestar]

no, you need a spot welder for that.

And don’t forget to buy a packet or two of spots if you’re doing this.

[trout1105]

Ozito 120 Amp Inverter Arc Welder | Bunnings Warehouse (https://www.bunnings.com.au/ozito-120-amp-inverter-arc-welder_p0045180)

I bought one of these about 2/3 years ago to take with me on my travels as my 3kva Honda genset runs it easily.
It was as cheap as chips ( I recall it was less than $100 on special at the time) and I really didn't expect it to last long But all I needed at the time was a small lightweight unit in case I needed to make a repair in the middle of nowhere.
Surprisingly it has stood up to being used plenty of times and has come in Very handy and it makes a reasonable weld, At the moment my BIL has the unit and has just finished building a Huge outdoor Steel pagoda with without any problems whatsoever.[thumbsupbig]

[PWat]

Just remember if using mig or tig outdoors to set up wind protection. My old TAFE instructor used to stress this and constantly remind the class that "the beat of a butterfly's wing will disturb the gas shield".

Agreed. The gas is pretty cheap though so you can just turn up the flow rate.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Too high a gas flow will just draw atmosphere/air into the shielding gas flow.
So turn it up, but probably no more than 20LPM.

[Slunnie]

I agree, there is an optimal flow depending on the nozzle. If you up the flow you blow porosity into the weld and its just as bad as having too low a flow. We run 200-270 MIG torches at about 13l/min. You just have to stop the air movement around the weld when you're welding. Its really stick for outside, TIG and Mig for inside.

[roverrescue]

Just to throw another option in the wings

If you bought a BOC/CIG/whoflungdung inverter MMA with lift TIg capability

You can have a nice lightweight MMA unit for larger steel work on all conditions and all positions.

And then when you want to expand your game for a few bucks in torch and tungsten and a Bunnings Argon bottle you can then have a play welding mild and stainless steel using lift TIG process.

This gives you the ability to weld much thinner and cleaner components than MMA alone.

10A Welder for example:

BOC Smootharc 131 VRD MMA Welder | BOC Gas (https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/welders-plasma-cutters-torches/welders-wire-feeders/mma-or-stick-welders-/boc-smootharc-131-vrd-mma-welder-mma131vrd-p)

In my experience cheap MIG units will lead you down a path working through several bigger and better units until you spend big on a 350A Lincoln and then upgrade your power supply to feed it!!!!!!!

If you are just starting in welding get proficient at MMA and lift TIG then when you change up to different methods you will have a strong foundation and know how to read the puddle.


Steve

[theelms66]

Bunnings want $200 deposit for a "D" size bottle. Went to my rental firm to close my rental a/c and hand back my bottle and they offered me a $5 a month rental. So walked back out with a full exchange bottle.

[Homestar]

I’ve found E size to be better for what I do, the D size just doesn’t last long enough. Also a pen E has twice the capacity as a D and is only half as much again for a refill - have these for argon and mig mix. I have mine through Total Tools as my local Bunnings doesn’t stock what I need, which is a bit of a **** given they are quite a bit cheaper but for the amount I use, all good. Even at $5 a month rental for a D size, you’re better off with the deposit change over scheme IMO. Only 3 1/2 years and you’re in front - most people have their welding equipment much longer that this. Just my 2 cents, but I get the upfront cost of the change over units could be a key factor - I’ve got over $800 tied up in bottles but never have to pay rent on them. Use an E size mig mix about once every 18 months, argon a bit longer. Will get oxygen and acetylene too at some point soon as well.

[workingonit]

... I have mine through Total Tools as my local Bunnings doesn’t stock what I need... Only 3 1/2 years and you’re in front...

Interesting your situation and thoughts are similar to mine - for casual user in a few years you're ahead with buy your own - no Bunnings scheme but Total Tools does. Contrast between Total Tools and another company up here that also sells cylinders - Total Tools will refund the deposit if you do not want to remain in the scheme or wish to go up a size whereas the other company says it's your problem, sell them on Ebay/Gumtree etc.

If anticipating a lot of welding I would reactive my account with BOC - they have a low use scheme (I assume introduced to compete with buy your own) - two argon E fills in 12months for $150 being very very much cheaper than buy your own cylinders - but if you don't get through all the gas you either return near full cylinders or pay another $150 for another 12 months (basically rent).

I keep oxy/acet for entertainment or when I need to braze/weld/cut or unstick large bolts on tractors etc. Argon for Al and ArgonCo for thin steel. Otherwise back to coreflux for general steel work.

For long term storage of oxygen get steel tanks, the gas migrates through aluminium ie empty bottle when you come to use it.

i was also not impressed with getting an oxygen cylinder from BOC that could only be opened with an extension and likewise closed. BHP have a safety sheet that says any oxygen that cannot be opened by hand without much effort are a safety hazard and should be removed from site immediately. Will be interesting to see what quality control the swap and go provide.

[Slunnie]

i was also not impressed with getting an oxygen cylinder from BOC that could only be opened with an extension and likewise closed. BHP have a safety sheet that says any oxygen that cannot be opened by hand without much effort are a safety hazard and should be removed from site immediately. Will be interesting to see what quality control the swap and go provide.
Something has gone wrong there, we have never had a bottle without a hand tap on it for any gas from BOC who supply all of our gasses in both industrial and medical.

[Toxic_Avenger]

For long term storage of oxygen get steel tanks, the gas migrates through aluminium ie empty bottle when you come to use it.

Citation needed.
[bigwhistle]

[workingonit]

Citation needed.
[bigwhistle]

I was going to teach myself how to use oxy/acet for cutting, welding and brazing.

I bought my first ever oxy and acet cylinders from BOC. I had no understanding of what gas comes in what metal type cylinder. So I accepted the oxygen in aluminium. I thought at the time it might be for OHAS ie far easier to lift than the steel acet.

As would have it the cylinders sat in the shed for more than a year unused.

Had a stubborn bolt on the main output of a slashing unit. Decided I should use the oxy/acet (OA). But found no pressure in the oxygen cylinder. My thought was a slow leak? Full pressure in the acetylene.

Took it back to BOC to complain about what might have been a leaking valve. After learning I was the type of user who would keep cylinders long term he said I really should have been given a steel cylinder. Why I asked? His reply, because the oxygen passes through the aluminium metal over time - aluminium is best for OHAS and frequent refill. Gave me a steel oxygen replacement with no charge. Was he right or wrong? I've not had the same problem since, using steel for oxygen.

Do you have info to the contrary?

[workingonit]

Something has gone wrong there, we have never had a bottle without a hand tap on it for any gas from BOC who supply all of our gasses in both industrial and medical.

Probably was not clear enough. The cylinder came with a valve, as it should. Went to purge the opening before attaching regulator. Just no way could I get the valve open by hand, only with a set of long handled multi-grips (and to close it). Mentioned to BOC when I returned it for a refill and they would look at it. One argument the big players put for not selling bottles is to ensure quality control. My comment is more as safety warning that valves should not be difficult to open.

[Toxic_Avenger]

Do you have info to the contrary?
Nothing other than working in that industry for quite some time. I have never heard such a preposterous claim before... to be perfectly honest, I think the guy who told you that was a complete and utter fool.

Cylinders hold upwards of 200 bar in many cases. If it were in fact porous, chances are it'd be empty for the weeks or months it was transported up to Darwin and sat in storage before it landed in your shed.
It's more likely that the valve seat loosened off through not being closed tight enough, or perhaps even worked loose with some daily or seasonal temperature cycles. In extreme cases, the burst disc can fail and lose all contents- particularly if stored in a really hot environment.

One other thing- Aluminium cylinders will not be permitted in underground mining operations.

[workingonit]

...Aluminium cylinders will not be permitted in underground mining operations.

Thanks for the possible other reasons.

Curious why aluminium cannot be used underground. I guess that is why there is a steel option?

[Slunnie]

That really surprised me that aluminium would be permeable to oxygen. I would have expected that to have been well researched and a bad business decision. The science should be pretty straight forward on that one.

In relation to the food industry research: Oxygen Permeability - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics (https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/oxygen-permeability)
Aluminum foil has long been used in flexible packaging as a barrier layer. Gas permeability is essentially zero except for defects or cracks that may occur during manufacturing, handling, or flexing of the package during use.

[workingonit]

Found this about coal mines, which explains a lot.

The General rules for underground coal mines, Rule 29.1 prohibits unapproved aluminium alloys in the underground environment. An incendiary spark can result from impact between some aluminium alloys and a steel object.

Aluminium gas cylinders | Business Queensland (https://www.dnrme.qld.gov.au/business/mining/safety-and-health/alerts-and-bulletins/mines-safety/aluminium-gas-cylinders)

And then this.

None of these ignitions were attributed to incendive sparks caused by aluminium contacting rusty steel. The study shows that the level of risk associated with the use of aluminium alloys in underground coal mines in the United States of America is extremely low (high uncontrolled use - no ignitions). It is proposed that where similar equipment and conditions exist in underground coal mines in Australia, the level of risk is comparable.
There is no prohibition on the use of aluminium in the oil and gas industries. No data could be obtained as to the extent of the use of aluminium, or whether any ignitions had been attributed to its use in the oil and gas industries.

https://www.acarp.com.au/abstracts.aspx'repId=C3066

Guess getting off track for the purpose of the original poster, but cleared up something for me.

[ozscott]

What he said. [biggrin]

Unless you want to drop a bundle on an AC TIG setup or slightly less on a MIG and spool gun, drop Aluminium from your list. Both MIG and TIG require gas which as noted costs several hundred extra to get into.

Price wise, a half decent MMA setup (Stick) welder allow $300 to $500 - there are MUCH cheaper ones, but generally a few hundred dollars gets you a nice little inverter unit that is light and easy to use.

If you had a bit more coin to drop, then a MIG setup with bottle of MIG mix allow around $1000

Cheapest AC TIGS go for around $800 but I wouldn't touch one of these myself - next step up is around $1300 but even these aren't the best so you can see how quickly this gets expensive. $2000 buys a nice unit, $4000+ buys a bloody brilliant one. Again, add the $400 for a gas bottle - Aluminium uses straight argon, so you cant use the bottle you bought for your MIG either - bit of a bugger eh... [biggrin]

Personally since getting my TIG, I use that the most and I love it, but a quick job will see me drag out the MIG. I do have an older cheaper stick welder I take in the ute if I need to do something for someone - the good machines stay at home.I got an AC DC Pulse TIG from Trade tools about 15 months ago. 15amp plug. Foot controller came with it. Sensational bit of kit. Just under $800. I have, amongst other things, built an alluminium side console with shelves for my tinnie to convert it from tiller steer to forward control.

I usually use my Esseti 150amp inverter for mild steel but using the TIG for mild steel is a lot of fun. The TIG is very precise.

The Esseti is great though. You can just pick it up, jam in a 3.2mm rod and weld after not using it for a year.

Cheers