D3 Engine swap

[Ranga]

Can anyone advise what's involved (cost, time, options, workshop etc) in swapping a failed TDV6 from a 2005 Discovery? I'm lead to believe that it's a body off job and a Ford Territory is often used as a donor vehicle.

Also, what are the most common reasons for TDV6 motor failure?

[101RRS]

The two common failures are

1. The timing belt coming off due to the idler pulley housing at the top of the oil pump breaking off - kills the oil pump but the engine dies because the valves crash into pistons. (hence older oil pumps need to be upgraded to the later reinforced version).

2. The crankshaft breaks - lots of views of what causes it but it seems one of the big end bearing shells move block oil to that journal where it seizes and the crankshaft breaks at that point.

Later 2.7s - like fitted in early D4s and the Territory seem less prone to breaking cranks and do not have the oil pump issue as they have the later pump.

Garry

[PerthDisco]

Also, what are the most common reasons for TDV6 motor failure?

Or the timing belt itself failed if not changed on a 2005. It would be past it’s second change date now in any case just in years. How many kms?

Or the plastic coolant junction on top of engine split and you cooked the motor. It gets changed at 7 years with timing belt.

Or someone reinstalled the oil filter without properly locating the nipple.

Lots of unnecessary no fault of the motor ways to kill any engine as they age without good R&M.

[Ranga]

Or the timing belt failed if not changed on a 2005. It would be past it’s second change date now in any case just in years. How many kms?

Not sure how many kms yet, but I believe under 200,000.

I've had a read of A Comprehensive Guide (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/231168-comprehensive-guide.html) which is really interesting. However, given this is about EU4 and onwards, I'm still a bit confused about options for a EU3 motor transplant.

[PerthDisco]

Not sure how many kms yet, but I believe under 200,000.

I've had a read of A Comprehensive Guide (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/231168-comprehensive-guide.html) which is really interesting. However, given this is about EU4 and onwards, I'm still a bit confused about options for a EU3 motor transplant.

7 years *or* 160,000km for the belt.

There is a comprehensive Territory engine swap guide here on Aulro somewhere.

[shanegtr]

Not sure how many kms yet, but I believe under 200,000.

I've had a read of A Comprehensive Guide (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/231168-comprehensive-guide.html) which is really interesting. However, given this is about EU4 and onwards, I'm still a bit confused about options for a EU3 motor transplant.
The EU3 engine needs the high pressure fuel pump and injectors swapped over, plus everything else that normally applies to the EU4 motor

[Ranga]

The EU3 engine needs the high pressure fuel pump and injectors swapped over, plus everything else that normally applies to the EU4 motor

So, simply put in the EU4 Territory motor and use the fuel pump and injectors from the original D3 EU3 motor? On the flip-side, How much extra work is involved in swapping over to a complete EU4 motor?

[Ranga]

The two common failures are

1. The timing belt coming off due to the idler pulley housing at the top of the oil pump breaking off - kills the oil pump but the engine dies because the valves crash into pistons. (hence older oil pumps need to be upgraded to the later reinforced version).

2. The crankshaft breaks - lots of views of what causes it but it seems one of the big end bearing shells move block oil to that journal where it seizes and the crankshaft breaks at that point.

Later 2.7s - like fitted in early D4s and the Territory seem less prone to breaking cranks and do not have the oil pump issue as they have the later pump.

Garry

Any idea on cost to repair either of those scenarios? And is it worthwhile, or better just to do an engine swap?

[shanegtr]

So, simply put in the EU4 Territory motor and use the fuel pump and injectors from the original D3 EU3 motor? On the flip-side, How much extra work is involved in swapping over to a complete EU4 motor?
I havent heard of anyone converting from a EU3 to EU4 engine completely. I would say at the very least it would involve and ECU swap, but there would probably be more to it than that

[101RRS]

So, simply put in the EU4 Territory motor and use the fuel pump and injectors from the original D3 EU3 motor? On the flip-side, How much extra work is involved in swapping over to a complete EU4 motor?

There is more to it than that - basically strip the two engines down to long engines and swap all ancillaries over from your old engine to the new. Sumps included.

In a convoluted way it is all covered in the thread about putting in a Territory engine into a Disco.

Garry

[101RRS]

Any idea on cost to repair either of those scenarios? And is it worthwhile, or better just to do an engine swap?

No idea of costs - not recommended to rebuild with crank failure as quality of parts if you can get them is not good but has been done.

If the oil pump has failed - people have rebuilt the top end and replaced individual pistons but it has been hard work.

Cheapest and easiest and quickest is a Territory engine with all your old ancilliaries.

What is actually wrong with your engine??

Garry

[Ranga]

What is actually wrong with your engine??

Well, as of today it's officially my engine. A long story I won't go into now.

Basically it was running fine with about 230,000 kms on the clock. Previous owner was driving it and it starting making a horrible engine noise and stalled. They managed to restart it briefly before shutting it down. It's sat unused for about 6 months.

Today, a mechanic (non-LR) tried to do a quick diagnosis. They managed to get it started after turning it over for about 10 seconds, but it sounded sick. Had his foot to the floor, but before too long it stalled again. I wasn't too keen on starting it at all, but thought the fact that it actually did start might be promising, but as per my typical motto, "expect the worst and hope for the best". So, I'm expecting the motor's shagged and needs replacing. I'll put this in it's own thread to garner more responses.

[PerthDisco]

Well, as of today it's officially my engine. A long story I won't go into now.

Basically it was running fine with about 230,000 kms on the clock. Previous owner was driving it and it starting making a horrible engine noise and stalled. They managed to restart it briefly before shutting it down. It's sat unused for about 6 months.

Today, a mechanic (non-LR) tried to do a quick diagnosis. They managed to get it started after turning it over for about 10 seconds, but it sounded sick. Had his foot to the floor, but before too long it stalled again. I wasn't too keen on starting it at all, but thought the fact that it actually did start might be promising, but as per my typical motto, "expect the worst and hope for the best". So, I'm expecting the motor's shagged and needs replacing. I'll put this in it's own thread to garner more responses.

Let us know what you find. Check the oil filter is not crushed after a bad installation. Causes oil blockage and starvation to bottom end and destruction.

Do you have any service history? How regularly have oil changes been done?

Any idea on timing belt changes?

[DiscoJeffster]

The symptoms described cover a list of things but there are basic things you can check.

You say the mechanic started and it ran for ten seconds.
What warning lights were up? Oil pressure???
What engine codes are stored that might help?

Can you turn the engine by hand if you place it in neutral? It’ll be stiff but doable if it turns. Use a breaker bar on the crank nut turning clockwise.

As mentioned, rip the oil filter cover off and check the filter. Look for a “crushed nipple”. It might indicate the cause.

I don’t believe it’s a snapped crank as the rear is where it’s started from and the front drives the cams, so a disconnect between the two would result in no start. Worn/spun bearings on the crank due to low oil flow would give the symptoms you describe. If you can’t turn it over then I’d go with bearings bonded to the crank.

The oil pump supports the timing belt tensioner and are known to fail but again, this drops the timing belt so the engine shouldn’t run.

It could be a simpler issue, but without hearing it and doing the above basics, can’t help further.

[PerthDisco]

Can anyone advise what's involved (cost, time, options, workshop etc) in swapping a failed TDV6 from a 2005 Discovery? I'm lead to believe that it's a body off job and a Ford Territory is often used as a donor vehicle.

Also, what are the most common reasons for TDV6 motor failure?

A lot will also depend on how cheap you can find a Territory engine vs how many kms it’s done. Check EBay.

[Ranga]

A lot will also depend on how cheap you can find a Territory engine vs how many kms it’s done. Check EBay.

I'm still a bit confused about an engine swap. Given mine is a MY05 (therefore EU3) I believe a Territory swap isn't a viable option, as they only started with the EU4 spec. Happy to stand corrected on this.

[Ranga]

Thanks for your help. I've replied here but also added it to my other thread (Is my 2.7 shagged? (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/278172-my-2-7-shagged.html)) which is focused purely on the current engine issues. Probably best keeping this thread to engine swap matters.


The symptoms described cover a list of things but there are basic things you can check.

You say the mechanic started and it ran for ten seconds.
What warning lights were up? Oil pressure???
Unfortunately the mechanic didn't tell me.


What engine codes are stored that might help?
After I charge the battery (or get a replacement) I can plug in the HawkEye that came with it.


Can you turn the engine by hand if you place it in neutral? It’ll be stiff but doable if it turns. Use a breaker bar on the crank nut turning clockwise.
Finally managed to get the fan off. All pulleys turn freely. The crankshaft pulley can turn with some effort (I'm only a little guy!), but I hear a bit of a rattling noise.


As mentioned, rip the oil filter cover off and check the filter. Look for a “crushed nipple”. It might indicate the cause.
If I take the filter off before draining the sump, will oil spill everywhere? I'm yet to jack it up so I can fit under there (air bags are empty).


I don’t believe it’s a snapped crank as the rear is where it’s started from and the front drives the cams, so a disconnect between the two would result in no start. Worn/spun bearings on the crank due to low oil flow would give the symptoms you describe. If you can’t turn it over then I’d go with bearings bonded to the crank.

The oil pump supports the timing belt tensioner and are known to fail but again, this drops the timing belt so the engine shouldn’t run.

It could be a simpler issue, but without hearing it and doing the above basics, can’t help further.

[101RRS]

I'm still a bit confused about an engine swap. Given mine is a MY05 (therefore EU3) I believe a Territory swap isn't a viable option, as they only started with the EU4 spec. Happy to stand corrected on this.

I could be wrong but you strip all ancillaries off the Territory engine so it is just the basic engine and move all your Land Rover stuff over so you still have a EU3 engine. The Eu3 stuff is on the new engine and the ECUs will not know you have a new engine in as you use you old looms, inlet, exhaust, injectors, pump, sump and oil pickup, etc etc etc

Garry

[Blknight.aus]

From what I remember reading, the territory motors swap in year for year up to the eu4 spec when you can use any engine of the same capacity from later years.