Is my 2.7 shagged?

[Ranga]

I know it's probably hard to diagnose an engine fault over the internet without much confidence, but here goes...

Basically it was running fine with about 230,000 kms on the clock. Previous owner was driving it and it starting making a horrible engine noise and stalled. They managed to restart it briefly before shutting it down. It's sat unused for about 6 months.

Today, a mechanic (non-LR) tried to do a quick diagnosis. They managed to get it started after turning it over for about 10 seconds, but it sounded sick (a bit of a knocking and scraping sound and not idling right at all) . Had his foot to the floor, but before too long it stalled. I wasn't too keen on starting it at all, so didn't try again. I thought the fact that it actually did start might be promising, but as per my typical motto, "expect the worst and hope for the best". So, I'm expecting the motor's shagged and needs replacing.

Apparently 2 common failures are the oil pump/timing belt or broken crankshaft. Would either of these allow it to still start? Anyone game to have a stab at likely problem/s, and repair options/costs? At best this might see the road again, at worst it will be broken and parts sold (or sold as is) to try and recover some costs.

Finally, any decent mobile mechanics Brisbane north side that would be able to come and have a gander?

[Bulletman]

I would have thought if the pulley had snapped off the oil pump then the engine would not have re-started as the belt wouldn't be able to drive anything. I would assume seeing as it started, albeit only briefly that you have possibly got a broken crankshaft . I seen a V12 MTU run very roughly mind you , but still ran , with a broken crankshaft which had some very good mechanics scratching their head until they dropped the sump .

Either way it doesn't sound good and you are likely putting a territory engine in it as a guess..

hope you didn't pay top $$ for it.

Bulletman

[discorevy]

remove the timing belt cover and have a look

[Ranga]

Either way it doesn't sound good and you are likely putting a territory engine in it as a guess..

hope you didn't pay top $$ for it.

Bulletman

I think I got it at the right price - probably equivalent to what I can sell the aftermarket accessories for. I would rather get it running again, but given it's the EU3 spec, I'm not sure if the common Territory motors are a straight swap.

[shanegtr]

I would have thought if the pulley had snapped off the oil pump then the engine would not have re-started as the belt wouldn't be able to drive anything. I would assume seeing as it started, albeit only briefly that you have possibly got a broken crankshaft . I seen a V12 MTU run very roughly mind you , but still ran , with a broken crankshaft which had some very good mechanics scratching their head until they dropped the sump .

Either way it doesn't sound good and you are likely putting a territory engine in it as a guess..

hope you didn't pay top $$ for it.

Bulletman
I wont be a snapped crank - if it was broken then you wouldnt be getting any drive to the front of the crank which in turn would not turn the front timing belt pulley = no camshaft or high pressure fuel pump movment.

[Bulletman]

I wont be a snapped crank - if it was broken then you wouldnt be getting any drive to the front of the crank which in turn would not turn the front timing belt pulley = no camshaft or high pressure fuel pump movment.

That was my comment re the V12 ,the crank snapped clean and once 1 cylinder fired the engine managed to run albeit very badly , admittedly has double the amount of cylenders, but using the same principle , if 1 cylinder fired on the TDV6 , with the timing belt still fitted then it may possibly be why they could get it to run for 10 secs.

All assumptions of course , but was more thinking that the timing belt must still be connected as the engine did fire. only way to be sure is a lot more investigation.

Bulletman

[101RRS]

Initial thoughts would be the crank - the front could in theory still fire however it could be a myriad of things.

Drop the sump and check.

Garry

[Ranga]

My reply to a post in my other thread. Probably best I keep it all in this one, as the other one refers to an engine swap (which may or may not be an option).


The symptoms described cover a list of things but there are basic things you can check.

You say the mechanic started and it ran for ten seconds.
What warning lights were up? Oil pressure???
Unfortunately the mechanic didn't tell me.


What engine codes are stored that might help?
After I charge the battery (or get a replacement) I can plug in the HawkEye that came with it.


Can you turn the engine by hand if you place it in neutral? It’ll be stiff but doable if it turns. Use a breaker bar on the crank nut turning clockwise.
Finally managed to get the fan off. All pulleys turn freely. The crankshaft pulley can turn with some effort (I'm only a little guy!), but I hear a bit of a rattling noise.


As mentioned, rip the oil filter cover off and check the filter. Look for a “crushed nipple”. It might indicate the cause.
If I take the filter off before draining the sump, will oil spill everywhere? I'm yet to jack it up so I can fit under there (air bags are empty).


I don’t believe it’s a snapped crank as the rear is where it’s started from and the front drives the cams, so a disconnect between the two would result in no start. Worn/spun bearings on the crank due to low oil flow would give the symptoms you describe. If you can’t turn it over then I’d go with bearings bonded to the crank.

The oil pump supports the timing belt tensioner and are known to fail but again, this drops the timing belt so the engine shouldn’t run.

It could be a simpler issue, but without hearing it and doing the above basics, can’t help further.

[DiscoJeffster]

You can take the filter off after about 5 minutes of the engine running. It drains back and empties to the sump mostly. I can tell you about opening it within 30 seconds of turning off and it’s not pretty!!!!! [emoji23]

[BigJon]

If I take the filter off before draining the sump, will oil spill everywhere? I'm yet to jack it up so I can fit under there (air bags are empty).

You don't need to get under to take the oil filter off, it lives in the valley.

[ramblingboy42]

Ranga, you're not very far from British Offroad.

They are the best...no kidding.

Organise for them to look for you.

They have a yard full of cars and parts and donors everywhere.

Land Rover parts and servicing specialists - British Off Road - Sunshine Coast (http://www.britishoffroad.com)

[Ranga]

Ranga, you're not very far from British Offroad
A mate I went to school with and lived with after works for them ;)

[jhsnow]

I know it's probably hard to diagnose an engine fault over the internet without much confidence, but here goes...

Basically it was running fine with about 230,000 kms on the clock. Previous owner was driving it and it starting making a horrible engine noise and stalled. They managed to restart it briefly before shutting it down. It's sat unused for about 6 months.

Today, a mechanic (non-LR) tried to do a quick diagnosis. They managed to get it started after turning it over for about 10 seconds, but it sounded sick (a bit of a knocking and scraping sound and not idling right at all) . Had his foot to the floor, but before too long it stalled. I wasn't too keen on starting it at all, so didn't try again. I thought the fact that it actually did start might be promising, but as per my typical motto, "expect the worst and hope for the best". So, I'm expecting the motor's shagged and needs replacing.

Apparently 2 common failures are the oil pump/timing belt or broken crankshaft. Would either of these allow it to still start? Anyone game to have a stab at likely problem/s, and repair options/costs? At best this might see the road again, at worst it will be broken and parts sold (or sold as is) to try and recover some costs.

Finally, any decent mobile mechanics Brisbane north side that would be able to come and have a gander?


Hi Ranga, Sorry to hear about your problems. Read all the posts, sounds messy.
If it was mine I would wait till after 10 am then call MR Automotive and ask to leave a message for Wayne to contact you, workshop foreman, then explain your problem to him.
I have always found him helpfull.
Best of luck. Let me know if you need help moving it.
Henry

[PerthDisco]

Hypothetically assuming the belts are original and completely flogged out could the rear belt on the HP fuel pump slip and cause rough running etc etc?

[DiscoJeffster]

Hypothetically assuming the belts are original and completely flogged out could the rear belt on the HP fuel pump slip and cause rough running etc etc?

Anything is possible. This is why following a methodical approach to diagnosis is important. We could write off a lot of the diagnosis time if we could here it running/turning over etc.

[discorevy]

Hypothetically assuming the belts are original and completely flogged out could the rear belt on the HP fuel pump slip and cause rough running etc etc?

more likely tensioner pulley let go letting the cam belt slip a few teeth, which was the reason for my earlier post suggesting removal of cover and having a look


Anything is possible. This is why following a methodical approach to diagnosis is important. We could write off a lot of the diagnosis time if we could here it running/turning over etc.

I wouldn't choose to do that in this case as .
1 likely to cause even more damage
2 hard to diagnose on a vid clip
3 better to have a look, it doesn't take long to get the cover off

[DiscoJeffster]

more likely tensioner pulley let go letting the cam belt slip a few teeth, which was the reason for my earlier post suggesting removal of cover and having a look



I wouldn't choose to do that in this case as .
1 likely to cause even more damage
2 hard to diagnose on a vid clip
3 better to have a look, it doesn't take long to get the cover off

Yeah you kind of missed what I was getting at. It’s already been run and that was the opportunity to take a video.
There are a million things to check, but many could be discounted by hearing it saving time. Without that then you have to start from square one and it’s impossible to diagnose some issues without turning over the engine at some point.

[discorevy]

Anything is possible. This is why following a methodical approach to diagnosis is important. We could write off a lot of the diagnosis time if we could here it running/turning over etc.


Yeah you kind of missed what I was getting at. It’s already been run and that was the opportunity to take a video.
There are a million things to check, but many could be discounted by hearing it saving time. Without that then you have to start from square one and it’s impossible to diagnose some issues without turning over the engine at some point.

probably missed what you were getting at because of your wording .
Also wasn't aware you have heard lots of these with broken tensioners , cranks to be able to give a diagnosis on a vid clip.

I wouldn't have the confidence , but I'm only a mechanic

[DiscoJeffster]

probably missed what you were getting at because of your wording .
Also wasn't aware you have heard lots of these with broken tensioners , cranks to be able to give a diagnosis on a vid clip.

I wouldn't have the confidence , but I'm only a mechanic

This conversation has gone straight to installing a new engine for what could be a simpler issue. At this point the video would be better than what we have at this point which is nothing. You’re right though, without being in person it’s mostly impossible.

[theelms66]

Won't be the crank.
Starter motor turns back of crank and cams run off the front of crank . If crank was snapped it wouldn't run . Period..

[discorevy]

This conversation has gone straight to installing a new engine for what could be a simpler issue. At this point the video would be better than what we have at this point which is nothing. You’re right though, without being in person it’s mostly impossible.

No one has suggested new engine

I have suggested it could well be broken tensioner mount , particularly if an early model with the old oil pump , which is going to involve at the least , removal of head/s , replacement of valves etc.
The OP , seeing he has the fan off could take the extra 30 minutes to have a look at the tensioner , pulleys , belt etc.
This would save the labour of the mechanic doing the same.as well as flat bed costs

[DiscoJeffster]

No one has suggested new engine

I have suggested it could well be broken tensioner mount , particularly if an early model with the old oil pump , which is going to involve at the least , removal of head/s , replacement of valves etc.
The OP , seeing he has the fan off could take the extra 30 minutes to have a look at the tensioner , pulleys , belt etc.
This would save the labour of the mechanic doing the same.as well as flat bed costs

Related post - D3 engine swap.

[Discodicky]

Won't be the crank.
Starter motor turns back of crank and cams run off the front of crank . If crank was snapped it wouldn't run . Period..

I hear what you say and agree that the crank may hopefully not be broken, however just for the record, many years ago I bought one of my sons his first car which was a Datsun 1600 and which I believed had a 'run' conrod bearing due to the classic bearing rattle it had. Drove it home carefully and stripped the engine. Broken crankshaft behind the 2nd main brg. Couldn't believe that I was able to drive it home the approx 35 klms from the chap I bought it!

[DiscoJeffster]

I hear what you say and agree that the crank may hopefully not be broken, however just for the record, many years ago I bought one of my sons his first car which was a Datsun 1600 and which I believed had a 'run' conrod bearing due to the classic bearing rattle it had. Drove it home carefully and stripped the engine. Broken crankshaft behind the 2nd main brg. Couldn't believe that I was able to drive it home the approx 35 klms from the chap I bought it!

Ok so the reason it still ran was the break must have been such that there was enough interference between sections that while snapped it held together and there wasn’t enough end-float thanks to the thrust bearings for the two halves to separate.

I have a great tale of the impossible- running a 6 cylinder Porsche engine backwards, but I think I’ll save that painfully expensive tale for another day.

[INter674]

Ok so the reason it still ran was the break must have been such that there was enough interference between sections that while snapped it held together and there wasn’t enough end-float thanks to the thrust bearings for the two halves to separate.

I have a great tale of the impossible- running a 6 cylinder Porsche engine backwards, but I think I’ll save that painfully expensive tale for another day.

I ran a Morris Major Elite with a broken crank..sure it was a bit noisy..but it still went. Eventually when I got a job I pulled it out and found the break was such that the two parts were keyed together by the end float bearings. Fixed it and sold it for 600 bucks🙄

[gavinwibrow]

probably missed what you were getting at because of your wording .
Also wasn't aware you have heard lots of these with broken tensioners , cranks to be able to give a diagnosis on a vid clip.

I wouldn't have the confidence , but I'm only a mechanic


"Only a mechanic"? More likely a guru in the likeness of JC et al!

[Tins]

I hear what you say and agree that the crank may hopefully not be broken, however just for the record, many years ago I bought one of my sons his first car which was a Datsun 1600 and which I believed had a 'run' conrod bearing due to the classic bearing rattle it had. Drove it home carefully and stripped the engine. Broken crankshaft behind the 2nd main brg. Couldn't believe that I was able to drive it home the approx 35 klms from the chap I bought it!

Yeah, but that was the L16... They often did things that were unbelievable..

[Tins]

I ran a Morris Major Elite with a broken crank..sure it was a bit noisy..but it still went. Eventually when I got a job I pulled it out and found the break was such that the two parts were keyed together by the end float bearings. Fixed it and sold it for 600 bucks🙄

Those three main bearing B Series things were tough old birds.

[Discodicky]

Those three main bearing B Series things were tough old birds.

Yes, a very tough engine indeed.
Only the very early B series engines had 3 main brgs; after around from memory 1962 ish they went to 5 main brgs.
That is one very classic and venerable engine family.
Started at 1500 cc, (MG Magnette, Wolseley, Austin etc) then to 1620 cc, (Morris Major Elite, Austin lancer, etc) Then finally to 1800 cc (MGB, Austin 1800 etc)
Early MGB's had the 3 main brg engine.
I've seen 'em bored and stroked to just under 2 litres, crossflow (pushrod) heads and poking out serious hp.
Did my apprenticeship on all BMC cars in 1967 [bawl]

[discorevy]

"Only a mechanic"? More likely a guru in the likeness of JC et al!

Kind words indeed , hope you're keeping well Gavin


Related post - D3 engine swap.

Thanks, I only get time to randomly pick posts during the day.
So another mechanic has said the engine is shagged.
Things Ranga could do for himself.
Remove timing cover , if you don't have any E torx sockets for the pulleys / harmonic balancer, remove all the bolts for the cover, enough to access the drivers side cam sprocket with your hand.
With one hand on the cam sprocket turn the crank backward and forward with the other using a breaker bar etc.
If the cam moves back and forward as you do the same with the crank with no freeplay then the timing gear train could be ok.
Any freeplay before the cam starts to move , you can get the cover off .

[Grahame Roberts]

Go to these guys or ring them up first. Very competent and thorough LR Specialists.

[DUCKSNUTS]

I see no mention of oil filter being cut open BEFORE starting or purchase. This is the FIRST thing to do, not try and start an engine and cause more damage. Do not use this YouTube mechanic again.
Have no idea why so many replies to start taking parts off when the oil filter tells you everything and much easier.

[discorevy]

I see no mention of oil filter being cut open BEFORE starting or purchase. This is the FIRST thing to do, not try and start an engine and cause more damage. Do not use this YouTube mechanic again.
Have no idea why so many replies to start taking parts off when the oil filter tells you everything and much easier.


probably because there is no need to cut open a cartridge filter as you can see both sides.
how would the oil filter tell you that you have a broken cam belt tensioner and a bent valve or three?
Agree on not trying to start it, as I also stated

[DiscoJeffster]

I see no mention of oil filter being cut open BEFORE starting or purchase. This is the FIRST thing to do, not try and start an engine and cause more damage. Do not use this YouTube mechanic again.
Have no idea why so many replies to start taking parts off when the oil filter tells you everything and much easier.

Post #8 mentions taking out the filter and inspecting, especially for a likely compressed nipple which is a cause of some failures. Didn’t read too closely before segulling I see

[Ranga]

So, what does a compressed nipple indicate (not that I've checked yet)?

[DiscoJeffster]

So, what does a compressed nipple indicate (not that I've checked yet)?

There is a nipple in there. If it’s crushed it might indicate the reason for the failure.

[Discodicky]

So, what does a compressed nipple indicate (not that I've checked yet)?

The "nipple" or "teat" on the 2.7 oil filter has to locate into a corresponding hole in the base of the filter housing. If it doesn't , as I understand it, an engine failure can result. Others may be able to enlighten us as to why its there, what it does, and what happens if the nipple doesn't locate into the hole, please.
The 3.0 litre engine doesn't have it.

[PerthDisco]

The "nipple" or "teat" on the 2.7 oil filter has to locate into a corresponding hole in the base of the filter housing. If it doesn't , as I understand it, an engine failure can result. Others may be able to enlighten us as to why its there, what it does, and what happens if the nipple doesn't locate into the hole, please.
The 3.0 litre engine doesn't have it.

Yes correct procedure is to locate the filter into the base then fit the lid and screw down.

If you load the filter into the lid first the nipple may not locate in the hole as the lid is screwed down tight which will crush the filter and restrict the flow and has caused engine failures.

You should see the nipple and filter material is crushed.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200421/b9839b572dcae0e674a6ea0c722be280.jpg

[Ranga]

The oil flows back the the engine via the nipple, yes?

[PerthDisco]

The oil flows back the the engine via the nipple, yes?

I’d love to know also as seems too small for anything useful

[Blknight.aus]

I believe its a drain out port that serves 2 purposes.

1. to allow unrestricted flow of air on a new filter to let the pump prime up faster during an oil change
2, to allow controlled draining of the housing after shut down so you dont make a mess while servicing

But, and I could be wrong,

the pressure issue that is caused by not installing the filter correctly is from this port being open and the filter not being seated correctly the majority of the flow vanishes back to crank case rather than into the lube system.

[jhsnow]

Hi Ranga,
I was wondering how you went with your engine problem. I it sorted?