Railroad Tracks

[Xtreme]

You might start reading and say I know the answer but keep reading if you want to smile by learning the rest of the story!


https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-O6rrbCilEyM/VfshTW3OXiI/AAAAAAAAUTk/EgcQIFsHnmU/s640/RR1.jpeg (https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-O6rrbCilEyM%2FVfshTW3OXiI%2FAAAAAAAAUTk%2FEgcQIFsH nmU%2Fs1600%2FRR1.jpeg&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1336da0744444cf7c3b908d7cd3d7134 %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6372 03536080367714&sdata=rDo90POdeSVW7zt2%2BMJctIPkBBK5bQ3pOK4wb3BEEd o%3D&reserved=0)


The U.S. Standard railroad gauge (distance between the rails) is 4 feet, 8.5 inches.

That's an exceedingly odd number. Why was that gauge used?

Because that's the way they built them in England, and English expatriates designed the U.S. Railroads.

Why did the English build them like that?

Because the first rail lines were built by the same people who built the pre-railroad tramways, and that's the gauge they used.

Why did 'they' use that gauge then?

Because the people who built the tram ways used the same jigs and tools that they had used for building wagons, which used that wheel spacing.


https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-TsvViXiV8tQ/VfshmEpJgWI/AAAAAAAAUTs/CNng-SI-tRA/s640/RR2.jpeg (https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-TsvViXiV8tQ%2FVfshmEpJgWI%2FAAAAAAAAUTs%2FCNng-SI-tRA%2Fs1600%2FRR2.jpeg&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1336da0744444cf7c3b908d7cd3d7134 %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6372 03536080367714&sdata=nRyuKZH7URvc33%2B8y4cqQ9tFew6yHhrDAJjsOzGyRe s%3D&reserved=0)



Why did the wagons have that particular odd wheel spacing?

Well, if they tried to use any other spacing, the wagon wheels would break on some of the old, long distance roads in England, because that's the spacing of the wheel ruts.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dMIq3ByhELM/VfsiDBvSaAI/AAAAAAAAUUE/01EijMm8n6k/s640/RR3.jpg (https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-dMIq3ByhELM%2FVfsiDBvSaAI%2FAAAAAAAAUUE%2F01EijMm8 n6k%2Fs1600%2FRR3.jpg&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1336da0744444cf7c3b908d7cd3d7134 %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6372 03536080377708&sdata=tK1QTP%2FmE67g8h0JENZQEZmRI4qCpAT0OSxoqDWrUW c%3D&reserved=0)



So, who built those old rutted roads?

Imperial Rome built the first long distance roads in Europe (including England) for their legions. Those roads have been used ever since.

And the ruts in the roads?

Roman war chariots formed the initial ruts, which everyone else had to match for fear of destroying their wagon wheels.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-PhjaXIMQa-U/VfsiPRzPLoI/AAAAAAAAUUM/vF3ApF0zu7o/s400/RR4.jpeg (https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-PhjaXIMQa-U%2FVfsiPRzPLoI%2FAAAAAAAAUUM%2FvF3ApF0zu7o%2Fs160 0%2FRR4.jpeg&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1336da0744444cf7c3b908d7cd3d7134 %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6372 03536080387702&sdata=HyCyniEuMfU%2BpLsHGWgK6ufG%2F%2BRfDHR33enQS7 pfO9k%3D&reserved=0)

Since the chariots were made for Imperial Rome, they were all alike in the matter of wheel spacing.

Therefore, the United States standard railroad gauge of 4 feet, 8.5 inches is derived from the original specifications for an Imperial Roman war chariot.

In other words, bureaucracies live forever.

So the next time you are handed a specification, procedure, or process, and wonder, 'What horse's ass came up with this?', you may be exactly right.

Imperial Roman army chariots were made just wide enough to accommodate the rear ends of two war horses.


https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bvzUghp3qo4/Vfsijc_kyLI/AAAAAAAAUUU/4atCspzyZxg/s640/RR5.jpeg (https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-bvzUghp3qo4%2FVfsijc_kyLI%2FAAAAAAAAUUU%2F4atCspzy Zxg%2Fs1600%2FRR5.jpeg&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1336da0744444cf7c3b908d7cd3d7134 %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6372 03536080387702&sdata=e%2B1IZ5Ge4x99cCuIht8eolDYs%2BccM645r1KF0yv4 CXk%3D&reserved=0)

Now, the twist to the story:
When you see a Space Shuttle sitting on its launch pad, you will notice that there are two big booster rockets attached to the sides of the main fuel tank.

These are solid rocket boosters, or SRBs The SRBs are made by Thiokol at their factory in Utah.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-c2joSKkRwHY/VfsitHUp1EI/AAAAAAAAUUc/WWAgwIiqAJM/s640/RR6.jpeg (https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-c2joSKkRwHY%2FVfsitHUp1EI%2FAAAAAAAAUUc%2FWWAgwIiq AJM%2Fs1600%2FRR6.jpeg&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1336da0744444cf7c3b908d7cd3d7134 %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6372 03536080397698&sdata=nHdus2A1VaBa9gUvYCEc3CKv6gVL6HF%2Bj3zIzU1u4H M%3D&reserved=0)

The engineers who designed the SRBs would have preferred to make them a bit larger, but the SRBs had to be shipped by train from the factory to the launch site.

The railroad line from the factory happens to run through a tunnel in the mountains and the SRBs had to fit through that tunnel.

The tunnel is slightly wider than the railroad track, and the railroad track, as you now know, is about as wide as two horses' behinds.


https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-sQyUodJWnqU/Vfsi8uC3NMI/AAAAAAAAUUk/v-k974rZW7Q/s640/RR7.jpeg (https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-sQyUodJWnqU%2FVfsi8uC3NMI%2FAAAAAAAAUUk%2Fv-k974rZW7Q%2Fs1600%2FRR7.jpeg&data=02%7C01%7C%7C1336da0744444cf7c3b908d7cd3d7134 %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6372 03536080397698&sdata=PbtDXrYDruDnBOSzEBkiGG3wkqQRGG0EETSWqLhvjUM% 3D&reserved=0)


So, a major Space Shuttle design feature of what is arguably the world's most advanced transportation system was determined over two thousand years ago by the width of a horse's ass.

And you thought being a horse's ass wasn't important!

Now you know, Horses' Asses control almost everything.
Explains a whole lot of stuff, doesn't it

[V8Ian]

Quire some years ago, when I first read that explanation, I also read a bebunking reply.
I don't recall the answer in its entirety, but one of the points was that the extra half inch was added to enable wagons, as they got larger, to negotiate curves.

[PhilipA]

I remember coming across a miraculously intact roman bridge near Kusadasi in Turkey.
I could very clearly see the ruts made by the chariot wheels in the bridge.

Similarly the road from Aleppo to Adana follows the Roman Road and the border point is actually a Roman arch. the road was originally made from enormous blocks of I presume sandstone as the ground was marshy and you could see the chariot marks where the new road deviated from the old.
AFAIR there are some preserved on the Appian way also.
Regards PhilipA

[V8Ian]

Did you measure the distance between the ruts, Philip? [bigwhistle]

[PhilipA]

No I didn’t check , not that anal.
But Snopes seems to think that it’s indirectly true .
Of course there are lots of railway gauges such as metre or 3 foot 6 inches in Qld and 6 foot 3 in Victoria.
From what Understand the qld gauge was to save money on what is claimed to be the longest network in the World, while Victoria had plenty of money and Scotsmen initially designed the Railways.
I think most colonies were metre gauge, certainly Malaya and Sri Lanka.
regards PhilipA

[p38arover]

The tunnel is slightly wider than the railroad track, and the railroad track, as you now know, is about as wide as two horses' behinds.

Actually, US railway tunnels are/were wider than UK or Australian tunnels because US railways have a wider loading gauge than Australia or Britain. Loading gauge - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge)

Dunno what they mean by slightly wider than the track. US freight tunnels are generally 10ft 8ins - more than twice the width of the track. Even if you allow for the width of the sleepers and ballast, the tunnels are still a lot wider.

Tunnel width has to also allow for curves.

[bob10]

As always happens on the net, some one comes along to spoil the party. Yes, and No says The Straight Dope. [ with a name like that, they fight to be taken seriously. but they make sense]


Was standard railroad gauge (4’81/2”) determined by Roman chariot ruts? – The Straight Dope (https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2538/was-standard-railroad-gauge-48-determined-by-roman-chariot-ruts/)

[bob10]

Actually, US railway tunnels are/were wider than UK or Australian tunnels because US railways have a wider loading gauge than Australia or Britain. Loading gauge - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loading_gauge)

Dunno what they mean by slightly wider than the track. US freight tunnels are generally 10ft 8ins - more than twice the width of the track. Even if you allow for the width of the sleepers and ballast, the tunnels are still a lot wider.

Tunnel width has to also allow for curves.

The rolling stock was wider.

[p38arover]

The rolling stock was wider.

Yes, hence the wider loading gauge.

[JDNSW]

The rolling stock was wider.

Probably because it could be -where early railways in the UK meant buying access to relatively expensive land in a relatively densely populated countryside, the US in the first half of the nineteenth century and where the early railways were built was nowhere near as densely populated, so the cost of land was a much smaller factor. And the key to the loading gauge was the with of the reservation where two tracks were needed.

A further factor was probably that the early US railways were built on a shoestring compared to the UK, and avoided earthworks like the plague, and especially tunnels. By the time railways were built that needed these, the loading gauge had already been established. In contrast, even the first public railway, the Liverpool and Manchester Railway of 1830 (Stephenson, UK), was dual track, involved tunnels, cuttings and a number of bridges, both on the railway and across it, as well as extending into the built-up areas of two major cities.

[NavyDiver]

As always happens on the net, some one comes along to spoil the party. Yes, and No says The Straight Dope. [ with a name like that, they fight to be taken seriously. but they make sense]


Was standard railroad gauge (4’81/2”) determined by Roman chariot ruts? – The Straight Dope (https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2538/was-standard-railroad-gauge-48-determined-by-roman-chariot-ruts/)

Loved the yarn but it hit me Australia did not have a standard gauge railway

Rail gauges in Australia display significant variations, which has presented an extremely difficult problem for rail transport on the Australian continent for over 150 years. As of 2014, there is 11,801 kilometres (7,333 mi) of narrow-gauge railways (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narrow-gauge_railway), 17,381 kilometres (10,800 mi) of standard gauge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_gauge) railways and 3,221 kilometres (2,001 mi) of broad gauge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broad_gauge) railways.

I didn't start it :) I was also thinking of the size of a horses ass. Standard breeding practices even 2000+ years ago gave some significant variations. :)
Through the crusades, Barb and Arabian horse bloodlines were added to Friesian and Andalusian bloodstock. “Spanish” horses, whatever the breeding were the most expensive. Many modern draft breeds such as the Percheron, Belgian, and Suffolk Punch are all likely descendants from this era- Link
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFfKAiSX0AAdPfN?format=jpg&name=360x360
(https://horsesinhistory.wordpress.com/category/historical-data/rome/) Happy Easter all

[p38arover]

In contrast, even the first public railway, the Liverpool and Manchester Railway of 1830 (Stephenson, UK), was dual track, involved tunnels, cuttings and a number of bridges, both on the railway and across it, as well as extending into the built-up areas of two major cities.

The cost of building those magnificent UK railway viaducts would have increased considerably with a larger loading gauge.

uk railway viaducts - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?q=uk+railway+viaducts&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwj7z6bCkOLoAhXvgEsFHceECjQQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=uk+railway+viaducts&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQA1AAWABgg4QGaABwAHgAgAEAiAEAkgEAmAE AqgELZ3dzLXdpei1pbWc&sclient=img&ei=kKOSXvvHFu-BrtoPx4mqoAM&bih=907&biw=1680&rlz=1C1GIWA_enAU676AU676) and scroll down.

159531

[PhilipA]

AFAIR the us railway companies were granted land either side of the railway tracks which they then sold.

They imported Chinese labourers to reduce costs.
Regards PhilipA

[bob10]

AFAIR the us railway companies were granted land either side of the railway tracks which they then sold.

They imported Chinese labourers to reduce costs.
Regards PhilipA

And Irish as well.

[p38arover]

I watched something recently (may have been QI) which discussed how the term "Navvy" came about. The term came from those labourers who dug canals in Britain. They were call "navigators" which was shortened to "Navvy". The term was later applied to the labourers who built Britain's railways and roads.

[V8Ian]

I heard a similar story, Ron. Navvy eventually applied to, particularly, Irish civil engineering labourers.

[87County]

No I didn’t check , not that anal.
But Snopes seems to think that it’s indirectly true .
Of course there are lots of railway gauges such as metre or 3 foot 6 inches in Qld and 6 foot 3 in Victoria.
From what Understand the qld gauge was to save money on what is claimed to be the longest network in the World, while Victoria had plenty of money and Scotsmen initially designed the Railways.
I think most colonies were metre gauge, certainly Malaya and Sri Lanka.
regards PhilipA

I think you'll find the local Vic gauge, although broad, is not quite as broad as you have stated :) I hope that's not too anal for you PhilipA :)

Prior to the extension of standard gauge into VIC, the variation caused lots of work at Albury, but the solution in the change to a narrower gauge on the NSW Main North Line at Wallengarra (no longer used as a changeover location) was a little simpler, the NSW standard gauge entered the station on one side and the QLD narrow gauge departed from the other side.

That now disused NSW section of the Main North has some wonderful brick bridges and culverts that are true works of the art of the tradesmen who built them and worth a look if you ever travel the New England Hwy north of Armidale.

[JDNSW]

I think you'll find the local Vic gauge, although broad, is not quite as broad as you have stated :) I hope that's not too anal for you PhilipA :)
....

The Victorian gauge is 5'3", also known as Irish gauge. How this came about is a story in itself!

[p38arover]

I seem to remember (but can’t be sure) as a child in Albury, seeing wagons being lifted off standard gauge bogies and transferred to 5’3” Victorian bogies but, thinking about it, it does seem unlikely.

[V8Ian]

I seem to remember (but can’t be sure) as a child in Albury, seeing wagons being lifted off standard gauge bogies and transferred to 5’3” Victorian bogies but, thinking about it, it does seem unlikely.
I recall a similar story from my school days , but don't recall where. I thought I must have gotten the wrong end of the stick.
At Clapham, trains came in with produce, from North Queensland, on the narrow gauge. Said produce was transhiped, manually across the platform into NSW rolling stock on the standard gauge.
It was hard to get an initial start, but once one had one's foot in the door a great way for a destitute young apprentice to increase his nett income by 50%, on a long, hard Saturday night.

[drivesafe]

Bogie exchange for allowing rail cars to operate on different gauges is very commonplace in Australia and has been for many years.

They actually label wagons that are specifically designed for rapid bogie exchange with an “X” in the wagons classification lettering.

For example, a freight wagon marked BC means it is a bogie container wagon, and a BCX is a bogie container wagon with rapid or easily exchangeable bogies.

Passenger carriages can also be designed with exchangeable bogies and a good example of this was the Great Southern Railway’s Orient Express, which ran from Cairns to Melbourne.

When the Orient Express arrived in Brisbane, the passengers would have a day wondering around Brisbane while the whole train was taken to Acacia Ridge and all the bogies were changed from standard gauge to narrow gauge, or the reverse, depending on which direction the train was travelling.

[p38arover]

Thanks Tim. I wondered about brakes and air lines hence the reason for doubting myself. I also thought I’d seen the Sydney-Melbourne train also having a bogie change at Albury. But as I said, I was only a kid of about 7-yo (we actually lived at Hume Weir. Dad would have gone into Albury to watch and taken me with him.)

[87County]

Thanks Tim. I wondered about brakes and air lines hence the reason for doubting myself. I also thought I’d seen the Sydney-Melbourne train also having a bogie change at Albury. But as I said, I was only a kid of about 7-yo (we actually lived at Hume Weir. Dad would have gone into Albury to watch and taken me with him.)

Here you go Ron, your memory is probably fairly correct on this one, like I posted earlier a lot more work at Albury than at Wallengarra

Bogie exchange - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogie_exchange)