Sorting Out Vehicle Capacity and Types of Driver's Licence

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

I have the duplicate copy of Bluey's Western Australian Notification of Change of Ownership from 2015.

The paperwork states the following:

TARE: 2083
Agg: 3795
GCM: 6292

There is no GVM given on the form.

A Queensland Class C licence has the following restriction has a maximum weight of 4.5 tonne (t) gross vehicle mass (GVM)


Where
TARE weight = Is the weight of an empty vehicle or container.

Aggregate Trailer Mass (ATM) or Gross Trailer Mass (GTM).

ATM is the combined weight of the trailer and its full load when it is not coupled to a tow vehicle.

GTM – Gross Towing Mass – The total weight of a trailer and its load

GCM – Gross Combination Mass – The total weight of a vehicle and its load plus any equipment, trailer, and its load. This total should not exceed a vehicle GVM

GVM is the maximum weight that a truck can carry including its own weight. This is the maximum or total weight of a loaded rigid vehicle (including body, payload, fuel and driver).

Again - A Queensland Class C licence has the following restriction has a maximum weight of 4.5 tonne (t) gross vehicle mass (GVM)

================================================== ==========================================

Given these figures - that I am admittedly lost within; given Bluey's statistics and the restrictions of a Queensland C Class licence:

Does this mean that Bluey is inside the capacity of a Queensland C Class Licence?
Is Bluey over the capacity of a Queensland C Class Licence?
If Bluey is over the capacity of a Queensland C Class Licence are Bluey's statistics up to either a Light Rigid or a Medium Rigid or a Heavy Rigid licence.


I was informed that Bluey could legally be driven on a C Class licence - is this correct or am I off to get a different class of licence?

Kind regards
Lionel

[Blknight.aus]

aggregate is the total mass of the fully laden vehicle/object its stamped on.

youve got a 3.7t agg so thats 3.7tGVM.

you're good on a car license.

however...

you're over 1t payload so technically its got to be a commercial vehicle

( I had issues with this with fozzy which were immediately quelled when I asked "whats that mean if i have a heavy combo license and only use it for private use?"

[Lionelgee]

Hello Dave,

Thank you for your reply.

I have just returned from the depths of the paddock armed with three different light sources... it is quite dark here now at close to 10:00 pm.

I found the plate on the firewall it states Assuming that since the van was made in Australia it would use the British Imperial ton, the long ton, at 2240lb.
The van has a GVW at 8400 LBS = Gross Vehicle Weight, or GVW, = 3.8101759079999997 Tonnes or 3.8 Tonnes
With the plated GCW at 12600 LBS

This would put the GCW at 5.715263862 accessed 14th April 2020 from Convert pounds to tonnes - Conversion of Measurement Units (https://www.convertunits.com/from/pounds/to/tonnes)

So how would this relate to... Queensland C Class of has a maximum weight of 4.5 tonne (t) gross vehicle mass (GVM) Licence types, classes and conditions | Transport and motoring | Queensland Government (https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/licensing/driver-licensing/types)

So the most important figure for me is that Bluey at a GVW of 3.8 tonnes is well under the 4.5 Tonne restriction of the Queensland C Class licence by 700 kilograms; or 0.7 of a Tonne.... Thank God!

Now for the next layer of complexity. If I was to tow a 3.5 Tonne rated trailer with a GVW of 3.8 tonnes it means I have 300 kilograms of spare capacity between the trailer's rated towing capacity and Bluey's GVW? Or are there other factors that come into play when towing?

Kind regards
Lionel

[Slunnie]

You're saying the GVM is 3.8t which is well under the 4.5t max for a C licence.

GCM I didn't see as being specified in the licence link.

[V8Ian]

Car license Lionel. GCM is the total weight of the vehicle and trailer. Many of the large 4x4s and massive caravans would exceed 6 tonne.
A car (C) license covers up to 4.5 tonne/12 occupants, excluding trailer. You may need to upgrade to a LR to legally tow a trailer, that increases the GCM to over 4.5 tonne.
A Toyota LC 76 can have a GCM of 6.56 tonne, many of those drivers will only hold a C class licence.

Why is Gross Combined Mass (GCM) So Important? - RVeeThereYet (http://rveethereyet.com/gross-combined-mass-gcm-important/)

https://www.hcvc.com.au/forum/general/9881-towing-capacities-international#111931

If you read through the second link, it further confirms my suspicion that the dual wheel back axle was not a standard fitment.
Don't forget to confirm both diffs are the same ratio and all tyres the same rolling diameter.

[101RRS]

Your weights are very similar to my 101 - my GVM is 3652kg so not much less than yours and I can drive on a normal licence.

Garry

[Lionelgee]

You're saying the GVM is 3.8t which is well under the 4.5t max for a C licence.

GCM I didn't see as being specified in the licence link.

Hello Slunnie,

I suppose terms and numbers changed a bit between March 1973 when Bluey was made. All the details I found were under a layer of moss and over-spray on the ID plate. I will get some cleaner active on the plate tomorrow to see if the writing becomes clearer. The details so far I can only see are GVW and GCW.

A 2015 Notification of Change of Ownership form from Western Australia which shows: TARE, Agg., and GCM

Then the 2020 Queensland Government Licensing's GVM as far as I can tell GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) and GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) are interchangeable. The GVW figure taken from Bluey's plate is under the 4.5 GVM... to me that is all good!

Anyway between all the different initials and the crossing of state boundaries - things get lost in translation... Plus I am only a bare of limited mathematical ability at this hour of night. As in Winnie the Pooh's "Bear of little brain".

Kind regards
Lionel

[V8Ian]

Hello Dave,

Thank you for your reply.

I have just returned from the depths of the paddock armed with three different light sources... it is quite dark here now at close to 10:00 pm.

I found the plate on the firewall it states Assuming that since the van was made in Australia it would use the British Imperial ton, the long ton, at 2240lb.
The van has a GVW at 8400 LBS = Gross Vehicle Weight, or GVW, = 3.8101759079999997 Tonnes or 3.8 Tonnes
With the plated GCW at 12600 LBS

This would put the GCW at 5.715263862 accessed 14th April 2020 from Convert pounds to tonnes - Conversion of Measurement Units (https://www.convertunits.com/from/pounds/to/tonnes)

So how would this relate to... Queensland C Class of has a maximum weight of 4.5 tonne (t) gross vehicle mass (GVM) Licence types, classes and conditions | Transport and motoring | Queensland Government (https://www.qld.gov.au/transport/licensing/driver-licensing/types)

So the most important figure for me is that Bluey at a GVW of 3.8 tonnes is well under the 4.5 Tonne restriction of the Queensland C Class licence by 700 kilograms; or 0.7 of a Tonne.... Thank God!

Now for the next layer of complexity. If I was to tow a 3.5 Tonne rated trailer with a GVW of 3.8 tonnes it means I have 300 kilograms of spare capacity between the trailer's rated towing capacity and Bluey's GVW? Or are there other factors that come into play when towing?

Kind regards
Lionel
Suspicions further aroused, you have a discrepancy in plated and WA rego (licensed) GCM weights. I believe the GCM Was uprated in WA, after the rear axle was fitted. I think the axle was sourced from an IH C or D 1310, or possibly a small AR 1300

[Lionelgee]

Car license Lionel. GCM is the total weight of the vehicle and trailer. Many of the large 4x4s and massive caravans would exceed 6 tonne.
A car (C) license covers up to 4.5 tonne/12 occupants, excluding trailer. You may need to upgrade to a LR to legally tow a trailer, that increases the GCM to over 4.5 tonne.
A Toyota LC 76 can have a GCM of 6.56 tonne, many of those drivers will only hold a C class licence.

Why is Gross Combined Mass (GCM) So Important? - RVeeThereYet (http://rveethereyet.com/gross-combined-mass-gcm-important/)

Towing capacities International - Historic Commercial Vehicle Club of Australia (https://www.hcvc.com.au/forum/general/9881-towing-capacities-international#111931)

If you read through the second link, it further confirms my suspicion that the dual wheel back axle was not a standard fitment.
Don't forget to confirm both diffs are the same ratio and all tyres the same rolling diameter.

G'day Ian,

I chased up about Telecom vans. As it turns out my father and one of my brother-in-law's father were both PMG, Telecom and Telstra long term career people.

The brother in law's father was a Mechanic - now retired. When asked the immediate response back to me was that in Telecom anything over 3 tonnes had dual wheel axles fitted as standard from the factory as part of their manufacturing contract specifications.

Oh yes - there are some things that the BIL-Father goes straight between the eyes and straight down the line - any Telecom specifications for fleet vehicles. Hmmm somehow the words ...."the Gospel according to" ... spring to mind. Or how about, "in no uncertain terms".

Prior to joining the PMG he was a Mechanic in the Australia Army.

Kind regards
Lionel

[V8Ian]

Hello Slunnie,

I suppose terms and numbers changed a bit between March 1973 when Bluey was made. All the details I found were under a layer of moss and over-spray on the ID plate. I will get some cleaner active on the plate tomorrow to see if the writing becomes clearer. The details so far I can only see are GVW and GCW.

A 2015 Notification of Change of Ownership form from Western Australia which shows: TARE, Agg., and GCM

Then the 2020 Queensland Government Licensing's GVM as far as I can tell GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) and GVM (Gross Vehicle Mass) are interchangeable. The GVW figure taken from Bluey's plate is under the 4.5 GVM... to me that is all good!

Anyway between all the different initials things get lost in translation... Plus I am only a bare of limited mathematical ability at this hour of night. As in Winnie the Pooh's "Bear of little brain".

Kind regards
Lionel
GVM - V - vehicle alone.
GCM - C- combination, vehicle plus ttrailer/s.

[Lionelgee]

GVM - V - vehicle alone.
GCM - C- combination, vehicle plus ttrailer/s.

Hello Ian,

Arh - I see the English written word even in an initialised state - I understand... this hour of the night - mathematics .. that brain part is switched off.

Kind regards
Lionel

[V8Ian]

G'day Ian,

I chased up about Telecom vans. As it turns out my father and one of my brother-in-law's father were both PMG, Telecom and Telstra long term career people.

The brother in law's father was a Mechanic - now retired. When asked the immediate response back to me was that in Telecom anything over 3 tonnes had dual wheel axles fitted as standard from the factory as part of their manufacturing contract specifications.

Oh yes - there are some things that the BIL-Father goes straight between the eyes and straight down the line - any Telecom specifications for fleet vehicles. Hmmm somehow the words ...."the Gospel according to" ... spring to mind. Or how about, "in no uncertain terms".

Prior to joining the PMG he was a Mechanic in the Australia Army.

Kind regards
Lionel
Lionel, I believe if IH fitted the rear axle as a dual (entirely possible for a large contract) they would have changed the front hub to accept the same wheel as the rear axle.
Quite possibly your BiFL's father was referring to the carrying capacity, worth confirming.

[Lionelgee]

You're saying the GVM is 3.8t which is well under the 4.5t max for a C licence.

GCM I didn't see as being specified in the licence link.

Hello Slunnie,

Including a GCM in the licence link.... now that would make things just too damn easy! Australia has also been a Federation since 1901 why should there be any uniformity between states and territories now!

Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Lionel, I believe if IH fitted the rear axle as a dual (entirely possible for a large contract) they would have changed the front hub to accept the same wheel as the rear axle.
Quite possibly your BiFL's father was referring to the carrying capacity, worth confirming.

Hello Ian,

I think I have used up 30 plus years of accumulated latitude just by asking about the dual axle. I would have to accumulate another 30 more years to seek further clarification.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Lionel, I believe if IH fitted the rear axle as a dual (entirely possible for a large contract) they would have changed the front hub to accept the same wheel as the rear axle.
Quite possibly your BiFL's father was referring to the carrying capacity, worth confirming.

Hello Ian,

I will jack up Bluey's front and take off one wheel. Then I will see if the spare fits the front hub.

As mentioned previously in another thread... from appearances the front rims were once upon a time chrome dress rims.

They are now well and truly past it. The chrome has been long overtaken by rust.

Kind regards
Lionel

[V8Ian]

Hello Ian,

I think I have used up 30 plus years of accumulated latitude just by asking about the dual axle. I would have to accumulate another 30 more years to seek further clarification.

Kind regards
Lionel
Would you like me to make enquiries on the HCVC forum. The knowledge base there is like here, but about trucks.

[Lionelgee]

Would you like me to make enquiries on the HCVC forum. The knowledge base there is like here, but about trucks.

Hello Ian,

Thank you for the offer Ian. However, I am about to contact a International guru at the Historic Commercial Vehicle Association Queensland (HCVAQ). I am also going to contact Telstra to see if they have a history unit. There is also a section within the newspaper archive "Trove" which has a gallery of PMG - Telecom vehicles including vans.

Another option - one that may cause my eldest sibling to question my sanity - is that dad's off-sider is still around and he may remember the layout. Hopefully, he retains strong memories of the internal layout of what went where within the overhead consoles in the cabin.

I do remember dad's earlier service vans years before the D-Series. These were ones with double headlights at an angle on either side of the radiator. They had single wheels in each corner and they always looked thin and unstable. I have memories of how squat and rigid the D-Series version looked - there are traces of dual wheel rear axles in my mind.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello Ian,

I was sent a scanned copy of the Introduction to the D-Series sales brochure. It describes each model that was available in Australia to the general public. There is no mention of the Telecom vans - however, what the brochure describes shows how the Telecom vans must have been significantly tricked up from the base model. The Van is a 1210 -with a GCW of 12600 pounds however the vans advertised in the brochure are not four wheel drives.

The first mention of a four wheel drive capacity in offered in the brochure is at the larger capacity D-1310. The D-1310 has a maximum GCW of 16600 pounds (7.5 Tonnes). The D-1310 four wheel drive is described as having: a four speed transmission couple to a two speed transfer cases which enables you to get the right gear and the right power - when you want it

Interestingly, the D-1530 was the first model to offer a Diesel option. It is quoted as having ... the proven quality of a Perkins 6.354.

I did not know that the Perkins was an optional extra with the International fleet! I knew they were a contemporary swap for when the original petrol motors warranted replacement. Especially, in the Army Mark I - IV four wheel or six wheel drives once they reached private hands.

The next offering of a four wheel drive was the D-1610

Kind regards
Lionel