What's happening with your P38?

[4X4V8]

It's very quiet in this section of AULRO. I suppose that P38s are dying off a bit generally now they're all at least 18 years old. Still seems to be a lot of enthusiasm in Facebook groups, though mostly UK-based it seems.

I'm probably posting this for just about no-one to read or respond to but what the heck, why not. I'm bored. Maybe it'll get some interest and discussion going on P38s again.

I wish there were half the cars being wrecked here as there is in the UK, because getting good used trim parts at a reasonable cost is hard in Oz. I actually bought a used parcel shelf in good nick out of the UK on eBay. eBay seems to subsidise postage on some international items, so the whole thing landed was about $150 cheaper than I could buy here. There is a certain yard in the south of Australia that has plenty of used P38 parts but quoted me some really high prices.

I've been keeping fairly busy working on my MY02 Vogue. The roof liner seemed to take me a long time to do, I think because I had so many interruptions and stopped work to allow time for glue to set on the broken trims I had to repair, and the sunroof cassette had me foxed for a while. Don't you love it when you assemble stuff the wrong way (like seatbelt bolts before the trim that goes around it [bighmmm]) because you're pushing on trying to finish something after a long day at it already?Anyway, a great result and now the interior looks very good. I was lucky with my car that by some miracle the leather seats came up really well with a clean, almost look new, even the driver's seat.

I had a noisy engine pulley and discovered that they all have some play when new to allow for heat expansion. So while I replaced the tensioner/idler assy and the idler under the alternator, still not sure which was the culprit. I'm keeping the old units in case I need to reuse with fresh bearings. Only discovered you can replace just bearings alone too late.

I drove a 600km round trip for work last week and the P38 went well. It averaged 12.5L/100km on the highway, overall average of 13.2L/100km including some off-roading. The steering started to kick a lot more than usual when off-road, and of course later found the steering damper leaking. It was the original one, I think, with "LAND ROVER' and MADE IN SPAIN" stamped on it. I suppose 19 years is a good run for a steering damper.

Main jobs to go are to pull the dash to repair sticking blend flaps (and replace one blend motor with gear damage as a result) and probably replace heater o-rings while I'm there. In two minds with going for OEM o-rings or Viton o-rings. Viton are apparently much more durable? Also have a noisy fan motor or two: plenty of leaves and disintegrated plenum foam in there, I think I've cleaned all up when replacing the foam and pollen filters, but it sounds like the motor bearings are shot.

I replaced rear rotors and pads and fronts look okay but I wonder if the accumulator is on the way out. The servo motor doesn't power up excessively often -- I think - but brake pwr assist could be a little stronger. The brake fluid reservoir sits at the top mark when the car has been driven, but when left for a while fluid is maybe 5mm over the full mark. Not sure what that means -- failing accumulator or just normal.

The cooling system is behaving so I'm loathe to go in there to disturb it yet. It has green coolant in it, should be red/pink OAT. Just before my work took a nosedive a month ago I bought new coolant and as many of the coolant hoses, thermostat etc I could, but some hoses were out of stock. Not sure if I can justify the $ to buy the hoses I don't have just yet and get stuck into it.

I love the colour combination of my car -- Oslo blue with the lightstone beige interior -- but the paint has seen better days, esp on the roof and bonnet. There are many stains from tree sap and bird poo and the clear is coming off here and there. I'm going to rub back the serviceable bits with 2000-grit wet and dry and buff. It'll come up well overall, but really it needs fresh paint here and there to get to the standard I want. That's not happening for now though.

Well that's all from me. Hope your P38s are going well at the moment, and that that continues for at least a few trouble-free days [smilebigeye]

[Keithy P38]

G’day mate,

It sounds like you’ve been a busy lad! Perfect circumstances to catch up on those odd jobs on the P38 though. The roof lining is a fun job, I feel for you there. I remember it well.

Theres still a heap floating around here. I’ve noticed since the Facebook groups started that traffic has slowed in here. I dabble in both, although I don’t have a lot of time on technology myself so I’m quiet in both areas.

My P38 had 6 months of rest over summer and is in fine form for the camping season now. Once the virus restrictions disappear I’ll be out bush for sure! Heaps of maintenance has been done to my P38 while I had it off the road, not least a big tinker job which will be up on my YouTube in the next two or three weeks.

If you’re running green coolant and it’s ok, I don’t recommend changing to red. I did this with my blue P38 and ended up with leaks everywhere in the cooling system. I’m using green in mine now and it’s been fine for 5+ years (and however long Rob had green coolant in it while he owned it).

Stay safe mate!

Cheers
Keithy

[4X4V8]

If you’re running green coolant and it’s ok, I don’t recommend changing to red. I did this with my blue P38 and ended up with leaks everywhere in the cooling system.


I wonder why... did you flush out the system including the block? I have already bought the red stuff, not sure I can take it back. I want to replace all hoses and possibly the water pump while I'm at it so I should be right. This is not going to happen for a while anyway. Need to be careful with the $ for now.

Oh did I mention I have a fuel leak at the top of the tank? Pours out when filled to the top. Took out about 5-10 litres and it stopped. So dropping the tan to see what's going on is on the list, but will prob have to wait a while in case it's a cracked fuel pump assy (have seen this online, don't know how common it is though). The short-term solution is not to fill the tank.. not that I'm using the P38 much ATM anyway.

[Saulman1010]

Ive plenty of things to do on Rosie, but she keeps plodding on.
No intentions of trading or upgrading or whatever. Goes out about twice a week to give it a run and when towing but a good unit in my mind.
I'd like to solve the random seld raising to entended+ but its when I get time and inclination to tinker.
I plan on taking it off the road properly and get into a few items.
Rosie seems to be the exception rather than the rule in p38 terms, only been towed twice in the 17 years ive had it. Once for a crank angle sensor and for a fuel pump (that i ignored the warning signs)

I like having the last of the "proper" full chassis British owned Range Rovers.

Mjs

[4X4V8]

I like having the last of the "proper" full chassis British owned Range Rovers.

Mjs

Yours must be a very early model then! Mine's a September 2001-build, so that's the last of the American-owned LR full-chassis Range Rovers shortly after LR was German-owned, and of course well before it was Indian-owned. [bigsmile1]

I visited Solihull in about 2002 as part of the L322 launch. What an eye opener that was. Ford was trying to introduce better quality standards after BMW tried to introduce better quality standards, but well before Tata tried to introduce better quality standards.

I'm just joking -- seriously, there is something about the P38 that, as you say, speaks of a time when British vehicles mostly were British. There is little other direct influence on design or engineering (okay, ignoring the Buick V8 but surely by then it had become a naturalised Pom? I suppose I'm ignoring Mr Bosch too).

I think the P38 is on the rise for re-sale values (although I don't care about that) and collectability. I have always liked them since first driving one not long after they came out in Oz in 1995. There wasn't anything close for the combination of refinement and ability. I think the '98 Lexus LX470 came close though, but not a patch on the P38 for dynamics. It was a barge, albeit a beautifully built one. Geez, I just remembered I did a comparo between them in around 1998. Must find that info one day...

[Saulman1010]

Most kids growing up had pictures of supercars etc on their bedroom walls....I had Range Rover cuttings from magazines.
I remember when LR were at the motor show in Melbourne. Must have been 97-98? And they made a short 4x4 track around the fountain. I was watching the show of the 4 main LR product's do circuits.
I was stood next to some random old guy when the sales person came over and he asked if he (the old guy) and your son (me) wanted to go for a ride. I looked at my fellow spectator and he said we would be in that! It was a blue p38 and the driver put it through its paces for a couple of laps.
LR didn't know it but they sold a car that day.....it actually took me a few more years a a lot of hard work before I actually had one of my own.
Moral of story.....sales guys, dont underestimate the young guys who drool over cars.

Ive had 2 classics now, a p38a and a L322. But my favorite is still the p38.

Rosie (Rosie the red Range Rover) is certainly quirky (or neurotic) and needs lots of love but I'd be lost without it.

Ive read somewhere that if LR hadn't been brought by BMW there were plans for a phase 2 p38. Hmmm love one of those.

Mjs

[Keithy P38]

I wonder why... did you flush out the system including the block? I have already bought the red stuff, not sure I can take it back. I want to replace all hoses and possibly the water pump while I'm at it so I should be right. This is not going to happen for a while anyway. Need to be careful with the $ for now.

Oh did I mention I have a fuel leak at the top of the tank? Pours out when filled to the top. Took out about 5-10 litres and it stopped. So dropping the tan to see what's going on is on the list, but will prob have to wait a while in case it's a cracked fuel pump assy (have seen this online, don't know how common it is though). The short-term solution is not to fill the tank.. not that I'm using the P38 much ATM anyway.

G’day mate,

You’re spot on. I gave it a massive flush to get rid of all the green gear before changing to red. The only reason I changed to red was because I had read (as you did) that the red stuff was the correct one for a P38. It turns out that the red gear is good at finding ways out of the engine! I had it coming out of Welch plugs and all. That was a nightmare! Once patched up I vowed never to use the red stuff again :-)

Cheers
Keithy

[prelude]

It has been my experience as well mate :) I bought mine in 2015 and there seemed to be a lot more chatter on both here and other forums. Having always been a car enthusiast myself my experience had been that for a car to end up in the hands of tinkerers that communicate over the internet it needs to be old/cheap. I never would have though that an expensive product like the range rover would already be well into hobbyist hands at 10 years of age! Anyway, I digress. It is "good" to hear that facebook groups are still very active but I don't have and won't have facebook so that is no use to me. I happily pay my subscription to this forum ;)

Anyway, regarding parts and prices. We live in this wonderful world where you guys down under have trouble getting cheap parts and the uk is miles away, I live next door but I can't use most rhd stuff :) Regarding prices, it has been a while since I bought second hand stuff since I bought a wrecker back in 2016 and it has been good for most of my needs so I can't say much about parts but I have noticed that I bought my P38 at the utmost bottom of the curve. I own a MY98 autobiography 4.6 with that weird dualtone green/blue paint (love it though) etc. which had done 140K's when I bought it and paid only 3k euro's for it. A similar vehicle in the same near perfect state demands around 10K euro's at least these days. I guess people have recognized that this might be the next classic, although I personally kinda doubt that.

A small interlude; I think a lot about my vehicle and the car hobby in general. The relentless pursuit on speed, Co2 and other crap makes this an uncertain hobby to say the least. Once the dust has settled I am fairly confident fuel guzzlers will be accepted once again as driving heritage but until then we fend on our own. With that in mind I often think about how I am going to keep my hobby driving and although the rover V8 has been built in large numbers and there are many after market parts available, some (most?) other parts are not. The air suspension can be largely rebuilt with COTS parts, compressors are common and a radiator and hoses can be custom made. The ABS/TCS valve blocks, the pump and especially the computers controlling them are an entirely different story. If I were to venture a guess the vehicle most likely to be repaired for the unforeseeable future would be the defender?

Back to your post :) 12,5 per 100 sounds about right. What speed were you traveling? I could only ever get my range to do that at around 80kph. Now with bigger wheels, tornado chip, tuned cam, ported inlets, etc. I'd be lucky to get 16 per 100.

Regarding the accumulator: I have refurbished mine since I had one with the plastic washer so I ordered a kit from .au to fix that. I have noticed that since I did that job, although I was very careful in doing so, the brakes need to charge more often and loose pressure after driving a bit quicker. Most people think when that happens the pumps are on their way out but I have fitted a manometer directly to the outlet of both of my pumps and they will go up to 160bar with ease and stay there for a week or so. So, I guess that any leakage is internally to the accumulator indeed. The brake fluid will be exactly on level when the vehicle is running and the brake pump has stopped. Once you turn everything off though, the pressure might bleed back into the reservoir again and sits quite a bit higher. I guess that's why there is so much free space in the tank above the high mark. I would not be worried unless your pump runs too often and too long. In general it should kick in every 4th time you press the brake pedal and not run for more than 30 seconds when you power up the car. The smallish brake rotors (what allows us to have 16" wheels) are not exactly big for a car this heavy. Since I lifted mine I replaced the front brake lines with steel braided ones and that did help a bit in returning a bit a hardness to the padel.

I heard about green vs red/pink as well and I am not sure what to think about that. I can't recall what color the car came in when I got it but I filled it with coolant that can handle -40 since I drove it to the north cape and needed that type of stuff. It was yellow when I poured it in but it is slowly turning pink-ish. Since I lost a little bit as well (and I have top liners so it should not be the block) I am considering replacing it all together. Dropping the radiator would be good too since it is fairly stuffed from a few hard tracks I did. I am not sure what the difference is in those colors but I believe it has something to do with the type of glycol that is used and the aluminium our blocks are made of. Other people have already commented and it seems red is a leak finder :)

Keep on enjoying your car and the work!

Cheers,
-P

[4X4V8]

I heard about green vs red/pink as well and I am not sure what to think about that. I can't recall what color the car came in when I got it but I filled it with coolant that can handle -40 since I drove it to the north cape and needed that type of stuff. It was yellow when I poured it in but it is slowly turning pink-ish. Since I lost a little bit as well (and I have top liners so it should not be the block) I am considering replacing it all together. Dropping the radiator would be good too since it is fairly stuffed from a few hard tracks I did. I am not sure what the difference is in those colors but I believe it has something to do with the type of glycol that is used and the aluminium our blocks are made of. Other people have already commented and it seems red is a leak finder :)

-P
It's interesting... I googled the green/red coolant issue and boy oh boy what a rabbit hole that was. I am not sure whether to use the OAT or not given Keithy's experience but am leaning towards taking it back in exchange for green stuff. I will try the mechanic that looked after the car for the PO to see if he remembers what they used. As it could actually be green OAT in there... I also wonder if a Ph test strip will tell me. More research to do now...

[peter51]

I dont have any trouble with orange coolant leaking and I have been using since 2010 and have removed coolant twice due to removing the engine and subsequently installing LOG in that period. I still have genuine hoses - but my experience could be a one off.
Im using it as it has better dissimilar metal corrosion properties, however green should be fine as well.
More importantly check your windscreen wash bottle for anything growing in there - I noticed one blocked front washer jet and the rear totally blocked . On pulling the hose from the front squirter and operating the front washer pump into a bucket I noticed soft black flecks being regularly pumped out.
I pulled the washer bottle - easy job as LR actually thought about ease of access - and found it has a copious slimy growth inside - like seaweed.
Apparently its called bioslime and I have been regularly using commercial wash additive.
I washed it out with mild chlorine solution with vigorous sloshing which removed it all and destroyed my shorts where it was splatterred. I blew out the lines and rear line was badly clogged - you can access the non return valve for that line at the rear left hand side pillar - behind the subwoofer. You have to clear it and the line before and after. The squirter holes can be cleared with a guitar string.
So check yours - big job. Dont try and remove your front squirters as the plastic is very fragile and the hose tail and retainers break instantly. If you need to replace them I measured D2 squirters and they are the same even though P38 part number is DNJ100750 and D2 is DNJ500090. D2 part is significantly cheaper.

[4X4V8]

I dont have any trouble with orange coolant leaking and I have been using since 2010 and have removed coolant twice due to removing the engine and subsequently installing LOG in that period. I still have genuine hoses - but my experience could be a one off.


I think it is going back to OAT red from ethol glycol (green) that can cause problems. Keithy here and on the net a few others have had issues with massive coolant leaks following the change. I exchanged the red OAT coolant I bought for ethol glycol (green), as I found out that's what is in the vehicle at present. I always prefer what the factory says to use but I also don't want massive coolant leaks. Yet to drop the coolant; I have the dash-out job to do and will change coolant at that time.

Interesting about washer reservoir... yes I can see how that would easily be a slime repository!

[peter51]

Yes stick with the green coolant - it will be fine.
While you are under there inspect your heater matrix orings.

Some plastic bits that are broken can be rebuilt with thin alloy reinforcement and rapidfix.

Make sure there are no water leaks from plenum or pollen filter housings - test it while you have your dash out - its insidious and can leave the sound deadening mats under carpet completely soaked. Sometimes it drips into connectors and corrodes them - essential requirement to check this.

Ive been everywhere in my vehicle except very remote areas and has been very reliable - except for remotes and a crank sensor- there is a part inside the remote that is the antennae - that fails. The red LED does not confirm that the remote is transmitting RF. The LED just confirms you are pressing the button.You can find my post on Rangerovers.net. Never leave the keys in the car with the windows up and then close all doors. You must have good remotes and master drivers door station ECU otherwise the security system can be problematic - active immobilisation cannot be disabled in the BCM like the D2. Passive can by nanocom. Im pretty good on the alarm system and diagnosis if you ever need help.

The PCM is very good at substituting values for ageing sensors - your CKP can work just fine whilst in the cruise and yet suddenly not supply a strong pattern on crank - they are cheap - get a spare if you are going long distance as its the only sensor where PCM will not allow running unless it can CLEARLY detect firing position. Ampltude is about + or - 10V on a new one and slowly deteriorates with age until at low amplitude on crank the PCM rejects as invalid signal. I can post the cam crank signals if you are jnterested. Symptoms are crank but no spark, check engine light on,(no injection pulse if I recall correctly.)

[4X4V8]

Yes stick with the green coolant - it will be fine.
While you are under there inspect your heater matrix orings.

Some plastic bits that are broken can be rebuilt with thin alloy reinforcement and rapidfix.

Make sure there are no water leaks from plenum or pollen filter housings - test it while you have your dash out - its insidious and can leave the sound deadening mats under carpet completely soaked. Sometimes it drips into connectors and corrodes them - essential requirement to check this.



I was supposed to have got the dash out by now but keep putting it off. Even though I have plenty of time at the moment it's not a job I'm looking forward to. Funny that.

I want to remove the dash because the RH blend motor has two damaged gears within -- as far as I can see, a set of three pretty new blend motors but the RH gears damaged due to a sticking blend door. I suspect the motors were replaced without investigating the cause of the problem in the first place. I discovered all this when I pulled the cluster and assoc parts a few months ago to get to the RH motor.

It will be a useful exercise in other respects: while not leaking now, I have bought new Viton o-rings to replace on the matrix (although not leaking at the moment). Some plastic parts broken or ill-fitting can be fixed while in there too.

Also have a noisy blower fan or two; I'll see if the bearings can be lubricated -- maybe it's a cracked basket.

My only hesitiation with kicking off the job is that I have about half a set of new coolant hoses (incl just 1 heater hose, because that's all that was in stock at the time). So either I just go ahead with the o-rings, and wait for coolant hose replacement later when I have the full set to replace (but risk disturbing the o-rings when replacing the heater hoses) or hold off and do it all at once.

I found a useful tip on FB: before re-assmbling the dash, just plug in the cluster, connect the battery and fire it up to test that there are no coolant leaks (top-up/bleed first) and the blend doors do their thing. Apparently the Pass airbag won't hard fault if disconnected during this test (obviously I'll disconnect battery to resume dash/airbag reassmbly.)

[prelude]

I have a (LHD, but still) P38 in pieces with the dash out so if anyone needs pics of something I can provide them.

You may not need to run the engine to check for leaks, if you have a way to pressurize the system that could also work.

Cheers,
-P

[Saulman1010]

Ohh good grief.
It's started.

Rosie ('96) has been in semi drydock for a while now. Only used on odd weekends and only to tow trailer with kayak to beach.
I've put off various bits of things that need doing for years, but it started with a just a service since I cant remember the last time I changed the oil!.
The time has come for fix her up!

She is going back Thursday for brakes pads front and back plus 4 rotors (never had any rotors in 340k), a water pump (never had one either) and a serpentine belt.

Then 2 front tyres and then a few of the rubber boots in the suspension are perished so it looks like that's next.

On the list:
Blend motors
Dreaded heater o rings
Roof lining
(I can do those myself)

Re upholster the front seats
Air conditioning

Hell. It's only money right?

MJS

[prelude]

Can't take it with you mate :)

Fortunately doing a lot of it yourself means it'll cost heaps less. Enjoy the fun and keep us posted ;)

-P

[Saulman1010]

I'll tackle most electrical stuff myself, but my bad hands won't let me do the heavier stuff.

Rosie even got a bath! And it's not even Christmas!

MJS

[4X4V8]

What started as a dash removal to repair sticking blend doors and replace cogs in a blend motor has grown to a much bigger job. Still waiting for a few parts, but am going to replace o-rings, all coolant hoses, thermostat and z-strip on hvac control.

Now thinking I should also install a low coolant alarm too (I have a Scangauge to monitor actual coolant temp readings already).

I've been reading up on low coolant alarm installs and it's doing my head in. BMW E36 coolant reservior seems to need too many mods to be worth it. I'm thinking of buying a kit that I'll drill a hole in the existing (or OEM replacement) reservior to install its sensor... but then where to fit that?

[fixes]

Good to have chat about common ownership experiences. I did a lot of research on coolants after cooking my newly rebuilt GEMS 4.6 by not properly seating a radiator hose clamp under the overflow bottle. The blue silicate vs pink organic acid (OAT) coolant topic discussion is word-wide and cross-marques.
For p38s, Blue is pre-Bosch. The active ingredient added to the glycol mix combines with the water gallery aluminium to passivate it and prevent surface erosion. It is a dynamic process,...once the surface is fully saturated, the passivator cycles out of and back into the gallery surface. The blue coolant becomes ineffective after 2 years, the pink after 5, with associated degradation towards the end of life. This would be a good reason to change GEMS motors over to pink. (Who here has ever changed their coolant/ anti-corrosive because it has 'timed out'? Brake fluid similarly has a 'life' due to atmospheric water absorption). However, the blue and pink ingredients coagulate into clots and blockages when mixed, so the silicates (in blue) must be dissolved from the block surface by driving around on plain water for a few flushes (couldnt find any info on how many) before they can be replaced by those in the pink OAT.
With coolants, 'more' is not better...the maximum rate of heat transfer is into plain water, but into pure glycol, (despite its higher boiling point), it is only 70% of that, which is why coolants are 50/50, as a compromise.
The only chemistry explanation I can think of to explain Keithy's leaks after change-over is that leaky joints were being plugged by evaporating silicates (the mechanism used by StopLeak et al) but which dissolved after the switch.
The above info turned up while I was looking into Evans waterless coolant. Dont do it!...it is expensive...even only 2 or 3% moisture remaining in the system negates it, and in any case, once again,66 the rate of heat transfer at the metal-to-fluid boundary is poor, and the benefit of greater heat capacity is not realised except in very high flow circumstances as in racing or aero engines.
Another tip I picked up from a US custom radiator site was to earth the radiator core to the chassis to prevent galvanic corrosion. Static can build up in rotating metal driveline components that are rubber-isolated, and the galvanic currents across dissimilar metals (e,g, the waterpump impeller) could set up corrosion.

[fixes]

The ETM troubleshooting manual cautions to disconnect both positive And negative battery terminals before disconnecting the intruments. There is a trap for beginners...going in is no problem...I was looking to test my check engine bulb. I later moved on to other diagnostic problems which involved 'ignition on'...DOOOHHH!. The consequences aren't specified but I suppose I'll find out I ever get the car started again. I noticed an empty panel bulb location labelled 'brakes', but I'm not aware that the p38 had a brake pad wear sensor..?

[fixes]

What happened to the 'new' edit post button?... anyway, an after-thought about my missing panel 'brake' bulb..,I'm sure my 'ABS' and 'Handbrake on' warning lamps work.

[4X4V8]

However, the blue and pink ingredients coagulate into clots and blockages when mixed, so the silicates (in blue) must be dissolved from the block surface by driving around on plain water for a few flushes (couldnt find any info on how many) before they can be replaced by those in the pink OAT.

The only chemistry explanation I can think of to explain Keithy's leaks after change-over is that leaky joints were being plugged by evaporating silicates (the mechanism used by StopLeak et al) but which dissolved after the switch.

I hadn't even thought of that... running just water to flush out the system. Aren't there associated overheating risks? Or is it a matter of letting the engine idle in the drive for a relatively short period to do a flush rather than driving around for weeks with only water in the coolong system?

[Joanne Mansell]

It's very quiet in this section of AULRO. I suppose that P38s are dying off a bit generally now they're all at least 18 years old. Still seems to be a lot of enthusiasm in Facebook groups, though mostly UK-based it seems.

I'm probably posting this for just about no-one to read or respond to but what the heck, why not. I'm bored. Maybe it'll get some interest and discussion going on P38s again.

I wish there were half the cars being wrecked here as there is in the UK, because getting good used trim parts at a reasonable cost is hard in Oz. I actually bought a used parcel shelf in good nick out of the UK on eBay. eBay seems to subsidise postage on some international items, so the whole thing landed was about $150 cheaper than I could buy here. There is a certain yard in the south of Australia that has plenty of used P38 parts but quoted me some really high prices.

I've been keeping fairly busy working on my MY02 Vogue. The roof liner seemed to take me a long time to do, I think because I had so many interruptions and stopped work to allow time for glue to set on the broken trims I had to repair, and the sunroof cassette had me foxed for a while. Don't you love it when you assemble stuff the wrong way (like seatbelt bolts before the trim that goes around it [bighmmm]) because you're pushing on trying to finish something after a long day at it already?Anyway, a great result and now the interior looks very good. I was lucky with my car that by some miracle the leather seats came up really well with a clean, almost look new, even the driver's seat.

I had a noisy engine pulley and discovered that they all have some play when new to allow for heat expansion. So while I replaced the tensioner/idler assy and the idler under the alternator, still not sure which was the culprit. I'm keeping the old units in case I need to reuse with fresh bearings. Only discovered you can replace just bearings alone too late.

I drove a 600km round trip for work last week and the P38 went well. It averaged 12.5L/100km on the highway, overall average of 13.2L/100km including some off-roading. The steering started to kick a lot more than usual when off-road, and of course later found the steering damper leaking. It was the original one, I think, with "LAND ROVER' and MADE IN SPAIN" stamped on it. I suppose 19 years is a good run for a steering damper.

Main jobs to go are to pull the dash to repair sticking blend flaps (and replace one blend motor with gear damage as a result) and probably replace heater o-rings while I'm there. In two minds with going for OEM o-rings or Viton o-rings. Viton are apparently much more durable? Also have a noisy fan motor or two: plenty of leaves and disintegrated plenum foam in there, I think I've cleaned all up when replacing the foam and pollen filters, but it sounds like the motor bearings are shot.

I replaced rear rotors and pads and fronts look okay but I wonder if the accumulator is on the way out. The servo motor doesn't power up excessively often -- I think - but brake pwr assist could be a little stronger. The brake fluid reservoir sits at the top mark when the car has been driven, but when left for a while fluid is maybe 5mm over the full mark. Not sure what that means -- failing accumulator or just normal.

The cooling system is behaving so I'm loathe to go in there to disturb it yet. It has green coolant in it, should be red/pink OAT. Just before my work took a nosedive a month ago I bought new coolant and as many of the coolant hoses, thermostat etc I could, but some hoses were out of stock. Not sure if I can justify the $ to buy the hoses I don't have just yet and get stuck into it.

I love the colour combination of my car -- Oslo blue with the lightstone beige interior -- but the paint has seen better days, esp on the roof and bonnet. There are many stains from tree sap and bird poo and the clear is coming off here and there. I'm going to rub back the serviceable bits with 2000-grit wet and dry and buff. It'll come up well overall, but really it needs fresh paint here and there to get to the standard I want. That's not happening for now though.

Well that's all from me. Hope your P38s are going well at the moment, and that that continues for at least a few trouble-free days [smilebigeye]

I am a p38er new to this forum, we love our old girl. My poor baby needs 2 front seats. Light stone trim, some in Australia call it parchment. Trim code is p. Seats are electric, no heater.
only need front ones, black piping. Most cost effective option would be to buy two new seats; are a little bit in the dark hear about where to find some. Thanks

[Joanne Mansell]

I am a p38er new to this forum, we love our old girl. My poor baby needs 2 front seats. Light stone trim, some in Australia call it parchment. Trim code is p. Seats are electric, no heater.
only need front ones, black piping. Most cost effective option would be to buy two new seats; are a little bit in the dark hear about where to find some. Thanks

[Saulman1010]

Ok so Rosie has new brakes all round, rotors all round, rh rear axle seal and a water pump and belt.
That's all for the moment.

Next, front steering- bushes etc then 2 tyres.

MJS

[Saulman1010]

It was found to have an oil soaked abd sensor where the axle seal failed and I wondered if that was the cause of the random raising of eas to extened without imput, but alas no.
After a proper gentle test drive on new brakes and rotors I must still must have a bad height sensor somewhere.
Poo.

[FANTOM P38]

I am a p38er new to this forum, we love our old girl. My poor baby needs 2 front seats. Light stone trim, some in Australia call it parchment. Trim code is p. Seats are electric, no heater.
only need front ones, black piping. Most cost effective option would be to buy two new seats; are a little bit in the dark hear about where to find some. Thanks

I think your best option is to get them re upholstered. New would be very unlikely/costly here.
I can put you on to a upholsterer if stuck but there are plenty auto upholsterers around, should be one close to you!
good luck. Your seats will have heaters but doubt if your hevac has switches to activate them.

[garybrook]

Some of the front suspension components of the front suspension and steering links have been replaced, but many others didn't at 180,000km I think the rest should be. The previous owner replaced the radius arms bushes around 6 years ago and I replaced the steering damper and genuine dampers about 2 years ago. This last week I replaced the Panhard Rod bushes but I know that many copies are too soft, so I bought genuine ones from the UK. I have had a 15T press for 30 years but rarely use it, but it paid for itself and these bushes needed 10+T to remove and replace these. The vibration in the steering at 100km improved but there are separate issues, I think. Mostly harmonics, but the tyres are near worn out and the toe-in are out so I must finish this work before we replace the front tyres. While the front upper ball joints were replaced before me, the lower ones weren't and are trashed so it took me hours to remove the track rod and drag link without breaking anything. I bolted everything back in before I started to remove the brakes/ABS/hubs/CV+axle and I'm sure that pressing the ball joints will be a challenge. I have the 21/22 bj kit that others here and the USA recommended so we will see and I have new Lemforder bj/steering components so.... And I have to work out to replace the CV boots without cutting the new ones. I'll let you know.

[garybrook]

Well, this could take a while. I started to pull down the front right corner of the suspension. While I was removing the newish disc I found that there were surface cracks on the outside. I wrote that up recently on:

Best Brake pads !! (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/p38a-range-rover/279345-best-brake-pads-2.html), #13.

These cracks should not be an issue as I cleaned the studs and hub very carefully and the wheels nuts were always torqued down evenly. I'll check the wheels (Comets) later but they were near new when I bought the car 4-5 years ago. I'll check the other 3 discs later as they were all new about 3 years/20,000km.

I removed the disc shroud and the ABS sensor, without any problems with the light corrosion. The calipers came out easily as I rebuilt them about 2 years/10,000km with new pistons, seals and pins as well as new brake hoses. The swivel hub showed the top bjs were replaced at some time before me, but the lower bjs looked original and the axle seal looked new, replaced in the new style, so it was not leaking when I removed the hub with the drive shaft complete.

I tried to get the ball joints out using pickle forks and freeze/release but nothing worked, even with a decent tap with a large copper hammer. This took about several days without damaging anything so I started reading more. I thought heat was required so I started seeing what others were using. I found there was little advice in the local tool suppliers but I found that BOC and Gasweld Tools pointed me in the right direction. I set up a larger burner with a valve, hose and safety valve with a handful of adapters on a usual bbq lpg/propane 9kg bottle. I'm not a qualified mechanic, welder or gasfitter, and I did a short course of domestic welding at the local college (braizing, stick and mig but 30 years ago) but I got enough heat to break the tapers without burning down the garage. I just started slowly until the heat built up and the penetrating oil moved when the forks did work easily.

And then when I was walking back to the bench I stubbed my main right toe on a heavy jack in the garage and I broke it. That wasn't part of the plan. More later.

[Saulman1010]

I've just had ball joints done on Rosie. They charged me all up 10hours of labour to get them out! Apparently one guy for nearly a whole day, so well done you.
I just can't do those heavy stuff any more with my ****ty hands.

My toes are still intact tho. [emoji6]
Seriously, that's the sort of thing I do, celebrating a win in life by stubbing a toe. It's the workshop Gods bring you down a peg or two.

MJS[emoji40]

[P38charged]

Hi p38 ers,
im new to here but this is my fifth RR plus a Discovery I bought new in 2004 paid $69 900 and made much use of factory warranty !
I like going for drives in my p38 , I feel good doing it !
Every thing works , sometimes it doesn’t ... makes me smile when fuel prices drop a bit !
cheers Bob

[old dirt bikes]

Hi Folks, a while back I purchased another P38,cheaply, with the intention of just tidying it up a bit and using it to drive to work. while I did some much needed work on my original P38. Great plan, too bad it did not go like that. I pulled the motor out to fix some oil leaks. And about $10k later and I have a 5lt. with stepped liners, forged 9.8 to 1 pistons, aftermarket camshaft, about 25/65, balanced bottom end, a lot of work done to the cylinder heads and inlet manifold, Hurricane tri.Y headers, large diameter exhaust with straight through muffler, no cat converters, high flow injectors, ECU remapped by Tornado computers. I stripped and repainted the engine bay, and repainted the bonnet and the roof. I have also fitted new under bonnet insulation. I have fitted new suspension air bags. I have removed the fuel tank and fitted a new fuel pump/fuel sender unit, twice. I have rebuilt the brake modulator, overhauled all the brake calipers, fitted new dimpled and slotted rotors, and new heavy duty brake pads, and a stainless steel brake hose from the brake pump to the brake modulator. Front seats are at the upholstery shop being recovered with new leather. I have fitted white dial faces to the instruments ( adds to the **** factor ). I currently have the dash apart. Started off just replace the heater O rings. I found the ducts had been cut and the lower parts were not put back in. And the crash pad was cracked so this is being replaced. And I will remove the heater box and clean it all out and replace all the foam on the doors. I have repainted the black around the windows, and had the windows re tinted.
I am about half way through making a bull bar. I will leave making a rear bar for now. And I have a rear locker I need to put in when I have time.
And I am now the proud owner of 4 P38's. A 95 model HSE, the one I am currently working on. A 96 model HSE, 4.6, my original one. A 98 model I am using for parts. And another one I have just purchased, It is a 4.6 HSE, not sure what year. I think it is blue, not sure though.
And if any one is interested I live in Rockhampton, Central Queensland.
Regards,
Alan Temperley

[Saulman1010]

We must have photos of this beast!!!!

[old dirt bikes]

Yes OK, as soon as I get the dash back together and move it outside I will get some photos. I forgot to add that I made and fitted an emergency inflation valves, and I have an extra air tank I will fit when I have some time.
Regards,
Alan

[Saulman1010]

Where did you get the replacement under bonnet insulation pad?
Mjs

[4X4V8]

Trying to sort out a driveline vibration/shake in my P38, happens at about 110km/h (and noticed it, less obvious, at 60km/h the other day). Tyres new Pirellis in Feb. Mechanic had it driving on hoist, reckons shafts/UJs look fine but one wheel looked as if it wasn't running true. Changed that over, still has the problem, maybe not quite as pronounced. Thinking about buying a 2nd-hand set of wheels and trying them to see if it's a wheel/tyre problem. If it's the new tyres, well that's going to be fun trying to prove that and get an exchange/refund...

Rocker cover leaks getting pretty bad, so that's next job on the list. Then brake bleed, and then the job I keep putting off... the dreaded HEVAC blend door repair (dreaded because I've somehow made myself a long list of jobs to do while there). I wish I had a big shed to do this last job, rather than having to block my driveway for 3 days to do it...

My P38 is going well, for the little use it gets anyway. I've done maybe 1500km since Feb!

[Saulman1010]

I reckon I can do blend motors in a couple of hours now, done that procedure a few times now. Nothing to dread mate. Shame we are interstate my beers per hour rate is pretty good.
Mjs

[old dirt bikes]

Where did you get the replacement under bonnet insulation pad?
Mjs
Hi,
I just got it from ebay, it is a sticky back foam with alloy foil lower surface. It was about $65.00 plus postage.
Regards,
Alan

[4X4V8]

I reckon I can do blend motors in a couple of hours now, done that procedure a few times now. Nothing to dread mate. Shame we are interstate my beers per hour rate is pretty good.
Mjs
Yes but what if it's hot and so your beer consumption rate increases? [bigsmile1]

Seriously though, you're right. I just need to knuckle down and get it done.

[Scouse]

Thinking about buying a 2nd-hand set of wheels and trying them to see if it's a wheel/tyre problem. I have quite a few wheel/tyre sets here if you wanted to try swapping things around one day.

[Scouse]

the job I keep putting off... the dreaded HEVAC blend door repair (dreaded because I've somehow made myself a long list of jobs to do while there). I wish I had a big shed to do this last job, rather than having to block my driveway for 3 days to do it...You can keep the car mobile with the dash out. I usually leave the dash out for a while after doing HEVAC work on my own cars just to make sure all is well before reassembling.

[4X4V8]

You can keep the car mobile with the dash out. I usually leave the dash out for a while after doing HEVAC work on my own cars just to make sure all is well before reassembling.

I have been wondering about that.

I was hoping to be able to at least start the engine with dash out (after the blend doors and RH motor have been repaired) so I can make sure it all works okay, like you said. Do you pull the passenger airbag fuse so you don't trigger a fault code by starting the engine with airbag disconnected?

I will be replacing coolant hoses at the same time (it just seems to make life easier overall as I am replacing heater core o-rings. If I disturb the o-rings when replacing heater hoses and the o-rings leak, it doen't matter, as they're being replaced. Also I can drain the cooling system and have less coolant spill in the car when replacing o-rings).

[Scouse]

I don't worry about the passenger airbag. I just clear the fault once it's all finished.

It's almost a given that if you change the heater hoses & move the firewall pipes the slightest amount, the O rings will leak. Do the O rings last.

[Saulman1010]

OP.
Have u had a tyre off the rim lately, ie a puncture repair?
I run Toyo's and I DON'T rotate tyres because they create a racket when rotated against the wear.
Just a thought.

Mjs
I have quite a few wheel/tyre sets here if you wanted to try swapping things around one day.

[4X4V8]

OP.
Have u had a tyre off the rim lately, ie a puncture repair?
I run Toyo's and I DON'T rotate tyres because they create a racket when rotated against the wear.
Just a thought.

Mjs

Not except to get new tyres. When I bought the car in Feb I drove at a max 80km/h getting it home, didn't notice anything amiss at that stage. One tyre was borderline illegal for treadwear, the other 4 incl spare I think were out of date, abt 10 years old. So I repainted the alloys while old tyres were on, then bought new Pirellis.
While the paint on the wheels was pretty bad, I think I would have noticed any obvious damage since I had all five off to clean, sand and repaint. Doesn't mean they are not out of round or whatever, although I've been told these std LR wheels are pretty strong. AFAIK this car has never been off-road except some very light trail work by me in April.
With COVID, I have not driven it much let alone on the highway. But a 600km work trip in April and another 300km trip a few weeks ago has highlighted that vibration is an issue. Between those two trips, I had the car in to get a fuel tank leak fixed, and asked the mech to check CVs etc because of the vibration. So the only rotation I have done is swap the spare (with its brand new 'unroaded' tyre) with the suspect RHF wheel/tyre, which by then had done about 700km since new tyres fitted.
I was thinking of taking up Scott's generous offer of borrowing his spare wheel set but I've decided that if I need to chase a tyre warranty claim, it might be good to have a report from a mechanic saying that's the problem. I've booked it in with a LR mech at the end of the month to try a set of 'known' wheels/tyres he has, and will go from there.

[4X4V8]

The job I was putting off has finally been done - sticking blend doors and other stuff (o-rings, heater hoses, dead HVAC pixel fix). I was getting sick of it after two weeks off the road but I drove the Rangie down the shops yesterday and any misgivings evaporated.

I used a combination of Paul P38a's guide and Mez's (UK) to do this job. I'm very appreciative of these guys taking the trouble to document their work. Made the job much easier. Not having done this job before, it was a life-saver. A couple things that took me a while to figure out was how to release the glovebox latch cable (I didn't want to force it too much as I didn't know how fragile the plastic was -- there's plenty of that going on in this car!),

Two weeks sounds like a bloody long time and I was beginning to get sick of it. Even though I'm not that old, I am not capable of what I used to be due to illness. Just mowing the lawn for 30min can finish me off for the rest of the day sometimes, so when my body got too sore or I got so tired I was making mistakes the work on the Rangie had to be put aside a few times. I'm worried about how much longer I can manage to do big jobs like this on the Rangie, but for now I still get enjoyment out of it.

I also had so many side jobs to do while in there. You kind of want to fix anything that's not right because of the effort involved getting the damn dash out. Even then I didn't get to replacing some blown bulbs in the HVAC unit. That's have to wait until next time.

There were also delays with simple stuff. For example, someone has been in there before, judging by the missing screws, incorrectly fitted screws and bits hacked off the dash pad frame. So 2 bolts of the 4 securing the dash pad up at the bulkhead were missing: no worries, found a couple of the right thread pitch, length etc. But when re-fitting I could not get that last damn bolt back in, the bracket wouldn't line up with the thread in the dash pad. Spent ages on it. Everything was just about back in by then, so getting in there with a Dremmel to grind down the edge of the bracket aperture was going to be hard. Also realised the brackets are bolted through the bulkhead: there's probably a nut on the plenum side so I could adjust the bracket but I was sick of pulling things apart. Three bolts holding the dash front will have to do (until next time)!
167725

When I took out the heater box to establish why the RH blend door was sticking, all I found was the rubber flap surround 'just' catching on the housing. Filed down the housing at that point, think I even slightly trimmed the rubber surround. I pulled all the flaps and checked shafts and regreased, although none of the original grease was dried out. When I put it all back together the flap was sticking exactly as it was before! Bottom line: I think it was the pot on the blend motor at fault: while it also had a couple gears missing teeth, when I replaced the motor with a new one, no problems. I probably should have done that in the first place!
167726

The o-rings were a bit tricky - you have to remember that the cut-outs at the end of the aluminium tubes have to marry to the notches on the heater core apertures. Simple I know, but it nearly got me. I can see how some might not get the o-rings to seat properly or to over-tighten the connection. While the damage to the tightening screw suggests it had been worked before (and was easy to loosen, with a bit of WD-40 sprayed 30min before), the old o-rings looked... well, old. Crushed, old degraded rubber. I'm glad I replaced them. I used Viton rubber o-rings, we'll see how long they last.
167727

I will be flamed for this, but I did not replace the heater core, the 2001 original. I didn't want to wait 2 weeks for a replacement, and I didn't want to trust an aftermarket one that might leak anyway. The only original cores were either OEM from Land Rover Classic for $500 or a Valeo (same as OEM) from the US for about $350.

167728


Anyway, job done, no book symbol (yet)! and no coolant leaks (yet!).

[p38oncoils]

Hi guys and thanks for the posts. I’ve haven’t been active on the forum for quite a while but hopefully I am making up for that now. I’ve taken on a few projects lately which I’m listing below.

I’ve reconditioned the 4.6 litre engine in my 1996 HSE using mostly components that I bought from various suppliers in the UK. The most notable supplier that deserves a mention is Turner Engineering who supplied me with new Darton ductile iron flanged liners and high compression pistons.

167779

PLR Performance Engines in Brendale did the engineering work which included machining out the old liners and machining the block and fitting the new flanged Darton liners, ground the crankshaft and fitted new camshaft bearings. Southside Cylinder Heads did the work that needed to be done on the cylinder heads.

I assembled the engine with high compression pistons and a new longer duration standard LR camshaft as well as a new oil pump kit, timing chain and sprockets. The heads as well as the block decks had been skimmed so I had the inlet manifold skimmed as well so as to fit to the engine.

167777

167778

I fitted a new radiator and Murray at JagRover Spares in Brisbane supplied me with a cooling system modification kit which consisted of a number of hoses and a 82 degrees thermostat and I purchased an aluminium header tank through Bearmach which takes a normal radiator cap and also fitted a coolant recovery tank to the system. I topped this off with fitting a 7 psi radiator cap to the cooling system and also an Engine Guard to monitor the engine temperature.

167780

I removed the exhaust manifold heat shields and wrapped the factory headers with exhaust wrap in order to keep under hood temperatures down. A new Bosch 1.8kW starter motor, engine mounts, flex plate, radiator and battery finished this side of the work off.

167776

Turning to the inside, as the dash top was in bad shape from years in the sun also I replaced that and fitted all new brake rotors and pads, new ball joints, oil seals, front radius arm bushes and Panhard rod bushes. So, all in all I've kept myself busy for a while.

Omar

[old dirt bikes]

Well after losing the key for the P38 I have been rebuilding and looking for it in my shed for nearly 4 months. I went to the Land Rover dealer and ordered and paid for a new key [$487.00] and it might get here late February. SWMBO, swore she had not seen it. Anyway it turned up in the house. I needed a spare key anyway. Then I had to have some more skin cancer cut out of my leg. So I have not been doing big jobs on my P38 for a while. The only project completed lately is I managed to get a 8.8 inch wide screen head unit into the dash and sort of looking factory. Also it comes with all the modern inconveniences, front and rear cameras, GPS, connects to at least 3 phones at once, will connect to the internet for live traffic updates, or doing a bit of ebaying while traveling, plays movies etc. I have a steel bullbar half built that I will get back to soon.
Regards, Alan

[4X4V8]

Well after losing the key for the P38 I have been rebuilding and looking for it in my shed for nearly 4 months. I went to the Land Rover dealer and ordered and paid for a new key [$487.00] and it might get here late February.

Does that price include GST and did the dealer try to tell you that it also needs a couple hours of their labour time to sync the key?

Here in Sydney a year ago I got 2 quotes from LR dealers, ($500 and $550) and both wanted to charge to sync the key at between $200 and $240 per hour. 2 hours of labour for one dealer, I didn't bother asking the other how much time they would need. You or I could sync the new key in 5 minutes including a break for lunch.

[old dirt bikes]

Hi, 4X4V8,
no that was the total price including GST. Their head tech did come out to the parts counter and tell me he would have to sync the new key with his Range Rover scan tool. So I asked what scan tool he would use to do that, if he said Textbook I thought he might know what he was talking about. But no he had some new scan tool to suit the new Range Rovers. I have access to a text book scan tool if I need it. I told the parts guy I would think about ordering the key, and left. I returned the next day and ordered the key and paid for it, and said to the parts guy not to say anything to the tech I was arguing with the previous day.
I am making slow progress on my project P38. My front seats will be ready next week, new leather. It has been a pain working on the dash and electrics etc. sitting on the floor. Once it is mobile again I can take it to the workshop and fit the new airbags and Terra Firma shock's. I also have a Maxi Drive rear end to fit. And I have a bullbar half built I need to finish and blast and paint with 2 pack to match the colour of the vehicle. And fit the winch and 2 way radio. Before I start on any new projects like a rear bar and roof rack. Lucky I have another P38 to drive while I am working on this one.
Regards,
Alan Temperley

[4X4V8]

We have a new you-beaut carpet cleaner with attachments so I thought I'd clean the P38's carpets.

All was going well until I opened the tailgate to find a Redback spider almost the circumference of a 20 cent piece on the interior ceiling! I should have taken a photo, but all I could think of was getting rid of it before it got spooked and disappeared into a vent or something. That thing was the biggest Redback I've seen.

I remember when I bought the car under the right rear above the muffler there was a 'nest' of small brown 'balls'. I didn't think much of it at the time. These, it seems, are redback eggs. I had pressure washed under there a few months ago, but just checked and there are a few eggs left. So time to get rid of those and somehow spider-proof the P38. Spray watered-down citrus oil?

Of all the maintenance jobs I'd expected when owning a P38, this wasn't one of them!

[Saulman1010]

One of the many Ford Falcons I had, had a spider problem. I remember once a huntsman spider was on the roof lining and my wife at the time took an hysterical swipe at it and it took off and hid which is far far worse.
It later ran across my 2yod's bare legs and she loved it! "Yey! Incy-wincy want to play" she yelled, much to our horror.
I let off 2 bug bombs in the car and never saw him or his pals again!

MJS

[Saulman1010]

Rosie had a new radiator yesterday, I suppose 250,000klm she was probably ready for one!
I can't remember it being replaced, nor any paperwork in her file, so I assume its the one I had fitted when I had the cam changed.

She is getting to the stage where the only original part is the little green badge on the tailgate!

"It's had 3 handles and 2 heads, bloody good axe that!"

MJS

[Saulman1010]

Playing with GoPro and tidying Rosie today (locked down again) P38a Range Rover suspension at work. - YouTube (https://youtu.be/ELY6bSI2DTI)

[sandman]

today I've turned my gaze once more to the golden white elephant in the paddock,
It's real shame, but she's been neglected for some time while I take on other, equally ridiculous tasks, (namely, a recording studio)
New battery, but no start, not even the hint of an attempt, i guess it was never going to be that easy.
I can't keep her as I'm moving OS soon, but was hoping to get her mobile before I list her.
Ever onwards, right?
sandman.

[old dirt bikes]

Hi Folks,
well today I pulled the fuel tank out of my P38 for the 4th time and fitted a second new fuel pump. The non return valve was stuck in the previous one. And I cut an access hole in the floor while the tank was out, that way I will never have fuel pump problems ever again. When I get time I will dismantle the other pump and get the non return valve to free up and then I will keep it for a spare. But I will never need it now I have an access hole in the floor.
Regards,
Alan

[gavinwibrow]

today I've turned my gaze once more to the golden white elephant in the paddock,
It's real shame, but she's been neglected for some time while I take on other, equally ridiculous tasks, (namely, a recording studio)
New battery, but no start, not even the hint of an attempt, i guess it was never going to be that easy.
I can't keep her as I'm moving OS soon, but was hoping to get her mobile before I list her.
Ever onwards, right?
sandman.


bummer - you'll have to start charging for night visits to the telescopes?