Grid can go 75% renewable

[DiscoMick]

Our electricity can go 75% renewable if some rules are changed. That's good news.

Australia's electricity grid could run with 75% renewables, market operator says

Australia's electricity grid could run with 75% renewables, market operator says | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/apr/30/australias-electricity-grid-could-run-with-75-renewables-market-operator-says?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[scarry]

What it actually says is it could occasionally operate at 75%.

We need reliable power,not power maybe on occasions.

Sure it looks like things are moving in the right general direction,but reliability is the key concern.

[NavyDiver]

The real key with renewable energy is storage. The Snowy 2 is a one shot wonder. ( I like it). Suspect the significant storage options are growing. One is hydrogen as it can be created and stored and used locally. "2019 about 70 million tonnes of dedicated production" was used in Australia. The growth for existing use is growing. The cost of production from methods with are not"dirty" is reducing at a rate it will be the preferred energy for buses, mining, shipping and trains inside the next 2-10n years. Redox flow batteries (https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/04/29/a-redox-flow-battery-for-grid-scale-solar-plus-storage/) with 1MW storage in the news today. 25 year life span claim is interesting. "“Industry analysts estimate fully installed lithium-ion prices at around $450/kWh for C&I [commercial and industrial] projects and our vanadium redox flow batteries are the same price or cheaper on an upfront cost basis,”"

Personally I think costs must and will be much cheaper than $450/kWh myself! I guess that cost multipleed by charge and discharge cycles and then divided by 10 (years for lithium) or 25 (for the redox -**claimed**) means the cost per “Industry analysts estimate fully installed lithium-ion prices at around $450/kWh for C&I [commercial and industrial] projects and our vanadium redox flow batteries are the same price or cheaper on an upfront cost basis,” is far better. The South OZ cost are partly hidden making it a bit tricky to work that out (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-27/tesla-battery-cost-revealed-two-years-after-blackout/10310680)

The interesting part is I suspect we will have several components making the solution to suite local factors far more quickly than we have at present. Chatting with a mining exec re cost of power/fuel at a mine site several weeks ago was interesting. Mines in remote areas and other countries with unreliable infrastructure in particular made even some of the very high cost storage options look attractive and under considerations. Those consideration are even more relevant with shareholders demanding consideration for risk with environmental factors.

Governments drive some change -Usually poorly with compromised solutions. Industry is in some instances innovators and well ahead of the curve. One good example is F1 giving us ABS, traction control, crash safety. While standards are now Gov they all came from racing.

[PhilipA]

So what does the 75% instantaneous equal over a long period.

Germany has lots of problems getting over 27% continuous even with quite a lot of biomass which to me is not renewable. (see Michael Moore movie)

Now NSW seems to be getting on the biomass "renewable" bandwagon. How long before they have to clear fell forests to achieve this. Sawdust and waste . what BS.

And SA has the highest electricity rates in Australia. Why is that?
But if solar and wind is actually cheaper than coal or gas I look forward to lower power bills. Wait! what is those pink things I see flying?

Regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

As I posted elsewhere, I did a Biomass project for work a couple of years ago.

Very renewable, very viable. Domestic waste alone, including plastics and styrene can all be used.

[DiscoMick]

The story said the system was technically able to cope with 75% renewables if we reach that stage. We're not there yet.

[Old Farang]

What most of these enthusiastic proponents of renewable energy, from both wind and solar, feeding into a national grid overlook is just how precariously unstable it becomes the more of it that is added. There is just one mention of it in that article:



In a statement on Thursday, the energy and emissions reduction minister, Angus Taylor, said the report highlighted the challenges of integrating record amounts of renewable energy into the grid.

Taylor said the study recognised solar and wind energy “aren’t enough”, and the inertia in the system provided by synchronous generation would be crucial to maintaining grid security. He said an example of synchronous generation was a gas-fired plant, which runs on fossil fuel.

There is very little inertia in systems of either type, wind or solar. Within the last year this limitation was demonstrated very clearly in the UK when a major fault tripped off a large thermal power station, throwing a big portion of the grid load onto mostly wind farms. The sudden increase in the load on the remaining stations immediately led to safety trips disconnecting the wind farms in a "domino effect". That then threw the remaining load on to the thermal generating stations, which in turn tripped off. The whole country was blacked out! It also highlighted the fact in the UK that there are only a couple, maybe 3, independent "grids" in the entire structure.

Despite having spent a large part of my working life around mostly big diesel driven generating plants, I am all for renewable energy, but it is not as simple as some would like to beleive!

[Eevo]

oh boy! cant wait for electricity prices to fall.

[Gav 110]

oh boy! cant wait for electricity prices to fall.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Gav 110]

Can’t wait for my 110 to stop leaking oil

[Tombie]

Can’t wait for my 110 to stop leaking oil

It’ll run out eventually.

[Gav 110]

It’ll run out eventually.

Motor may seize but chassis ain’t gonna rust[emoji12]

[DiscoMick]

How renewable energy could power Britain's economic recovery

How renewable energy could power Britain's economic recovery | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/19/how-renewable-energy-could-power-britains-economic-recovery?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[PhilipA]

In the third quarter of 2019, some 39% of UK electricity generation was from coal, oil and gas, including 38% from gas and less than 1% from coal and oil combined. Another 40% came from renewables, including 20% from wind, 12% from biomass and 6% from solar.Oct 14, 2019

Have you seen Planet of the Humans?

If you approve of 12% of biomass being included in renewable energy then I have a bridge to sell.


So really the fossil energy or maybe correctly non wind or solar should be 39% +12% = 51%. Although perhaps that makes their blackouts more acceptable somehow.

A long way from a green economy.

And makes the claims that 75% of Australian energy can be green seem a bit fanciful.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

I think 100% non carbon is more than possible as soon as we stop funding coal and excusing pollution.

A post on a investment forum I just wrote my be of interest, Large business are doing it now and saving money.

Reading about 1.5 billion fuel and energy cost for a large South African miner. (https://www.goldfields.com/environment.php)They are spending several hundred million on renewable to save money right now. This pod cast mentions many of the biggest miners a by a very interesting Chih-Ting Lo, Principal at EELO Solutions.. One of the most interesting part is the modular aspects- It doesn't take just one option. The underground mining sector is a key driver to electrification to avoid significant ventilation required to vent diesel fuel fumes.
Diesel to renewables ***** Sound Cloud of just the audio (https://soundcloud.com/*****media/how-miners-gets-from-diesel-to-renewables)

Almost certain Hydrogen and Fuel cells for energy solutions are likely to change our mining industry inside the next five years.

The list of project EELO is working on is by it self interesting (https://www.eelo.ca/portfolio-category/management/) yet all seem a bit out of date.

[PhilipA]

UK spent STG 9.5 million to pay wind farms for not producing for one day last week when the sun shone and the wind blew.

if they had not pulled all the wind out of the system it would have crashed.

That is what non dispatchable power does to a network.

Regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

This is real future planning and will generate massive investment and jobs.

Spain approves push for 100% renewables, bans all new fossil fuel projects | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/spain-approves-push-for-100-renewables-bans-all-new-fossil-fuel-projects-63494/amp/?__twitter_impression=true)

[ramblingboy42]

UK spent STG 9.5 million to pay wind farms for not producing for one day last week when the sun shone and the wind blew.

if they had not pulled all the wind out of the system it would have crashed.

That is what non dispatchable power does to a network.

Regards PhilipA

Well Philip, you can see the problem there does not lie with renewable energy producers.

The networks , owned by greedy corporations, don't want to fix the distribution systems , but it's an inevitability or they will be swallowed up.

[DiscoMick]

Finally there is real movement on Australia's climate policy but time isn’t on our side

Finally there is real movement on Australia's climate policy but time isn’t on our side | Anna Skarbek | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/commentisfree/2020/jun/01/finally-there-is-real-movement-on-australias-climate-policy-but-time-isnt-on-our-side?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[DiscoMick]

The UK is paying coal fired power stations to stop operating because they are increasingly redundant.

UK electricity coal free for first month ever | Energy industry | The Guardian (https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/02/uk-electricity-coal-free-for-first-month-ever?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true)

[PhilipA]

UK electricity coal free for first month ever | Energy industry | The Guardian (https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/02/uk-electricity-coal-free-for-first-month-ever?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_gu&utm_medium=&utm_source=Twitter&__twitter_impression=true)

Please note nothing about being wood chip free.
What hypocrisy.
Regards PhilipA


The bright and breezy weather helped wind and solar power make up about 28% of Britain’s electricity last month, narrowly behind gas-fired power generation, which made up 30% of the energy mix.
SOOO Britain got to 28% solar and wind . That is a LOOONG way from 75%.
And since when do the greenies consider gas as renewable and clean?

[NavyDiver]

UK spent STG 9.5 million to pay wind farms for not producing for one day last week when the sun shone and the wind blew.

if they had not pulled all the wind out of the system it would have crashed.

That is what non dispatchable power does to a network.

Regards PhilipA

Storing Excess energy via our Pumped Hydro or battery (not my idea of cost effective) or Hydrogen will solve that one Phillip.

[DiscoMick]

Batteries are much cheaper than pumped hydro which involves enormous engineering costs - over $3b for Snowy Hydro 2.0.

[PhilipA]

Storing Excess energy via our Pumped Hydro or battery (not my idea of cost effective) or Hydrogen will solve that one Phillip.

I agree .

What about flywheels on superconducting bearings.

In the mid 2000s there was quite a bit of discussion about building massive flywheels in abandoned mining pits eg Hunter Valley. Flywheels were used years ago in Swiss buses. Even before that when I worked at DCA as a teenager the no break Dorman Gen sets used in airports had a massive flywheel to cover the period from power failure to diesel start up, and that was over 50 years ago.

Flywheels are used on a smaller scale at Coral Bay to stabilise the power in the transition between wind and diesel generator.

Unfortunately I think I will be dead before these things come to fruition. Even the Snowy 2 will probably not be finished for many years.

Regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

Britain goes two months without coal power.
Britain goes coal free as renewables edge out fossil fuels - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/science-environment-52973089?__twitter_impression=true)

[Tombie]

Oh look carbon shedding... 7 million tonnes of wood pellets, all processed overseas and then shipped in big cargo holds fuelled by bunker oil.

The UK pulled a similar stunt with manufacturing a while back. Moves the biggest polluting industry off shore and imported the final product.

[DiscoMick]

Oh look carbon shedding... 7 million tonnes of wood pellets, all processed overseas and then shipped in big cargo holds fuelled by bunker oil.

The UK pulled a similar stunt with manufacturing a while back. Moves the biggest polluting industry off shore and imported the final product.That's 5%. What about the other 95%? And they're going to close down the three remaining coal plants. Redundant.

[Tombie]

That's 5%. What about the other 95%? And they're going to close down the three remaining coal plants. Redundant.

Until the country powers up. When demand climbs what then?

Oh that’s right - import power across border as well. It doesn’t count towards their carbon calculations.

Must be great to think only in utopian terms without the burden of current physical and economic realities to get in the way.

[scarry]

I wonder how they will go in the middle of winter?

I think we can guess the answer to that.

[Old Farang]

Until the country powers up. When demand climbs what then?
Several years ago I read about what happens in power station control rooms in the UK when there is a sudden demand. The scenario was when there was a major football match, such as a final being broadcast. As soon as the match finished the millions watching it on TV made a dash for the kitchen and turned on their electric kettles to make a cup of tea. Oops!

With a conventional thermal power station you can keep units running on low load ready to take up the surge, but unless you have a direct line to the almighty, that is going to be a problem with a wind farm.

I posted previously about the lack of "inertia" in a grid relying on both wind and solar, and it is still a problem.

[Tombie]

I wonder how they will go in the middle of winter?

I think we can guess the answer to that.

They can each request a lump of coal for their combustion heater.

There will be plenty to go around.

[scarry]

They can each request a lump of coal for their combustion heater.

There will be plenty to go around.

And an exercise bike with a dynamo like we had as kids to power the lights[wink11]

[DiscoMick]

Seems to be going well in the ACT, which now draws 100% of its power from wind and solar and is now cutting electricity charges, which were already the lowest in Oz except for Tasmania, with its hydro power.
But hey, if people want to pay more for coal power, it's their choice, I guess.


ACT electricity prices to drop after reaching 100% renewable target | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/act-electricity-prices-to-drop-after-reaching-100-renewable-target-38023/amp/?__twitter_impression=true)

[PhilipA]

Seems to be going well in the ACT, which now draws 100% of its power from wind and solar and is now cutting electricity charges, which were already the lowest in Oz except for Tasmania, with its hydro power.
But hey, if people want to pay more for coal power, it's their choice, I guess.


Er NO.
They export power from solar when nobody needs it and then they import coal power at night.
They say they are 100% because they export the same as they import.
Lets see how they would go if NSW disconnected Canberra from the NSW grid.
Answer no power at peak times when needed.
Regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

Bwahahahaha. That’s gold! Love the articles that play to the gullible.

So on the 2 primary inter connectors the Canberra mob managed to “book” the power from the SA solar farms hey?

It’s book fiddling. They assign a volume and say it came from X source.

[DiscoMick]

I know you have a much better understanding than that simplistic post of how the national energy market really works, so I'm not even going to bother explaining it.
This is the way forwards and its unstoppable.

Could the coronavirus crisis finally finish off coal? - BBC News (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/science-environment-52968716?__twitter_impression=true)

[Old Farang]

I am not going to try and copy all of this article, but it shows up some of the things that are easily overlooked:

Power granted to switch off household solar in SA to prevent statewide blackoutPower granted to switch off household solar in SA to prevent statewide blackout - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-19/solar-boom-puts-sa-at-risk-of-another-statewide-blackout/12372558)

Electricity grid operators will seize the power to remotely switch off new solar panels in South Australia amid warnings the state's solar boom is putting the grid at risk of another statewide blackout.

The State Government will also underwrite an urgent $10 million investment to manage voltage in the state's power grid, after the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) warned that a voltage disturbance near Adelaide could see up to half South Australia's photovoltaic cells simultaneously switch off.


"The largest combined generator in our state is also actually an unmanaged generator in our state. And that puts us at very real risk."

[DiscoMick]

Marinus Link could send clean energy across Bass Strait, but its future is uncertain

Marinus Link could send clean energy across Bass Strait, but its future is uncertain | Energy | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jun/19/marinus-link-could-send-clean-energy-across-bass-strait-but-its-future-is-uncertain?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[DiscoMick]

'''Renewables superpower''': Cannon-Brookes backs green jobs recovery (https://www.afr.com/politics/federal/renewables-superpower-cannon-brookes-backs-green-jobs-recovery-20200629-p5578c)

[DiscoMick]

Sydney now powered by 100% renewable energy.

https://twitter.com/CloverMoore/status/1278076256773222402's=19

[Eevo]

Sydney now powered by 100% renewable energy.

https://twitter.com/CloverMoore/status/1278076256773222402's=19


thats not misleading at all.

[Ferret]

Sydney now powered by 100% renewable energy.

https://twitter.com/CloverMoore/status/1278076256773222402's=19

So apparently Sydney council says as of today it will source 100% renewable energy from three different generators - the Bomen Solar Farm in Wagga Wagga, Sapphire Wind Farm near Inverell and the Shoalhaven solar farm in Nowra.

Just had a look on the Aneroid Energy (https://anero.id/energy) web site as of 19:20 AEST - Bomen Solar output nil, Shappire Wind output nil and Shoalhaven Solar output nil .

Any lights on in Sydney at the moment? [bigrolf]

[DiscoMick]

Its 100% renewable when the total amount a customer is buying from renewable sources equals the total consumption. It doesn't mean they only use renewable. And remember this is only Sydney City, not the whole of metropolitan Sydney.

This is no longer unusual. The ACT is 100% renewable. Tasmania is over 90% hydro and renewable. Many businesses and other bodies are already doing this. By signing contracts they make the generators viable with firm customers and boost the total generation capacity of the network.
Its how a national grid works. Its the way of the future.

[Tombie]

Political spin at its finest.

It’s not 100% renewable at all. It’s totally misleading.

Click bait for environmental wannabes.


And it’s NOT how the national grid works.

[rovercare]

This is the way forwards and its unstoppable.
s (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/science-environment-52968716?__twitter_impression=true)

This is the only accurate thing, I have EVER seen you post, haha

[scarry]

Its 100% renewable when the total amount a customer is buying from renewable sources equals the total consumption. It doesn't mean they only use renewable.


So they are using 100% renewable,but not only using renewable.

Sounds like something a politician would say[thumbsupbig]

Umm,I must be missing something [bighmmm]

[DiscoMick]

I'm sure you geniuses understand that once electricity is sent into the grid its not possible to say this bit is renewable, but that bit is coal - its all just electricity.
Going 100% renewable just means they buy an amount equivalent to 100% of their needs from a renewable supplier, who sells it into the grid at the best spot price available.
That is how it works, actually. And its the future happening now.

[Tombie]

It then shifts all the other regions away from renewables.
So it’s a feel good exercise at best.

“We don’t pollute in ACT; but next door is shocking” [emoji1787]

And if NO production is taking place in the wind farms then they aren’t 100% at all.

[scarry]

I'm sure you geniuses understand that once electricity is sent into the grid its not possible to say this bit is renewable, but that bit is coal - its all just electricity.
Going 100% renewable just means they buy an amount equivalent to 100% of their needs from a renewable supplier, who sells it into the grid at the best spot price available.
That is how it works, actually. And its the future happening now.

Ok,so i buy 100% renewable,but there isn't enough renewable to go around?

[Slunnie]

Sydney now powered by 100% renewable energy.

https://twitter.com/CloverMoore/status/1278076256773222402's=19

It's great. Hopefully more people and areas buy through renewable energy providers also and support the movement towards renewable energy supplies. I read all of the commentary on what it all actually means and accounting for each electron along the supply chain, but at the end of the day they're supporting the renewable energy industry which is exactly what needs to happen and where the money needs to go.

Something I'm really proud of doing at my place is being a net exporter of renewable energy. It was a pretty solid business case and it brings in the money.

[DiscoMick]

Well done! Its definitely the way of the future, except its here now.

[Tombie]

Our household CO2 power Calc. Is 210kg per 30 days.
We offset by being a nett exporter.

However I can honestly say that isn’t the reason I have solar - it’s purely financial.

By comparison - our Defender, when stock, produces 29.5kg of CO2 per 100km.
Therefore each month our vehicles produce more CO2 than our household power requirement.

The biggest emitter isn’t our power needs.

[PhilipA]

Slunnie , have you considered the price effect of the export of renewables reducing the time that the mainstay of power, the coal fired power stations can operate at an optimal level rather than on and off.

So in effect all of us are paying more for electricity for your goodness.

This includes pensioners , widows and orphans, rental tenants and well everyone who does not export power.

If you have solar power most export is also at times when the electricity is not needed.

Now if you could work out a time shift so that your exports were at peak demand times say 4PM to 9PM , that would be good as some of the awful old Coal fired power stations could then be retired.

Regards PhilipA

[Graeme]

Just because a coal-fired power generator can't operate at maximum efficiency doesn't mean that its costing the consumer more overall when they get to use some of the cheaper solar power instead, whether that be from private PV systems or from business venture PV systems.

[DiscoMick]

Slunnie , have you considered the price effect of the export of renewables reducing the time that the mainstay of power, the coal fired power stations can operate at an optimal level rather than on and off.

So in effect all of us are paying more for electricity for your goodness.

This includes pensioners , widows and orphans, rental tenants and well everyone who does not export power.

If you have solar power most export is also at times when the electricity is not needed.

Now if you could work out a time shift so that your exports were at peak demand times say 4PM to 9PM , that would be good as some of the awful old Coal fired power stations could then be retired.

Regards PhilipABatteries will do that. The SA Tesla battery does it and is nicely profitable, so there will soon be lots more of them associated with solar/wind farms.

[Tombie]

The SA Tesla battery is a stability unit. Not a reliable source of ongoing supply/storage.

If it was to be used only for supply it will last about 3 minutes.

[Slunnie]

Slunnie , have you considered the price effect of the export of renewables reducing the time that the mainstay of power, the coal fired power stations can operate at an optimal level rather than on and off.

So in effect all of us are paying more for electricity for your goodness.

This includes pensioners , widows and orphans, rental tenants and well everyone who does not export power.

If you have solar power most export is also at times when the electricity is not needed.

Now if you could work out a time shift so that your exports were at peak demand times say 4PM to 9PM , that would be good as some of the awful old Coal fired power stations could then be retired.

Regards PhilipA
My hearts not bleeding here and I just love how you bring orphans and widows into this to just tug on those heartstrings. They price accordingly, the government provides subsidies to promote it and the future challenge for energy suppliers is infrustructure to accomodate these systems - what or how will be interesting to see. Some people think that only coal is the way but the rest of the world is progressing without them. If things were that grim then the system would be very different and energy providers themselves wouldnt be investing into renewables. The power I'm exporting and being used by the next door neighbour is basically free income for the energy suppliers with no input on their behalf, they can reduce the need for the power station and get paid for it. The massive amount of work to allow PV systems onto the network requires a pretty solid business case and environmental awareness and they obviously see reason to drive this, but if becomes increasingly unviable as a system then they will alter the FIT rates to suit. At the end of the day though, the energy companies who are buying and selling electricity and making 10-20c kwh for doing nothing, maintaining nothing and letting the computers read the meter boxs - it's a pretty good deal for them that I don't think is costing the orphans money.

[scarry]

Batteries will do that. The SA Tesla battery does it and is nicely profitable, so there will soon be lots more of them associated with solar/wind farms.

Documentation backing that up would be good.

[Slunnie]

Documentation backing that up would be good.

First google hits.

Hornsdale Power Reserve - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve)
Tesla just made its giant battery reserve in South Australia even bigger | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/843957/tesla-battery-south-australia/)

[PhilipA]

Slunnie , the world is changing in its regard for "renewables"

I have quoted highlights from a new Book called Apocalypse Never by Michael Shellenberger who is a leading environmentalist.
● Factories and modern farming are the keys to human liberation and environmental progress
● The most important thing for saving the environment is producing more food, particularly meat, on less land
● The most important thing for reducing pollution and emissions is moving from wood to coal to petrol to natural gas to uranium
● 100 per cent renewables would require increasing the land used for energy from today’s 0.5 per cent to 50 per cent
● We should want cities, farms, and power plants to have higher, not lower, power densities
● Vegetarianism reduces one’s emissions by less than 4 per cent
● Greenpeace didn’t save the whales — switching from whale oil to petroleum and palm oil did
● “Free-range” beef would require 20 times more land and produce 300 per cent more emissions
● Greenpeace dogmatism worsened forest fragmentation of the Amazon, and
● The colonialist approach to gorilla conservation in the Congo produced a backlash that may have resulted in the killing of 250 elephants.
Why were we all so misled? In the final three chapters of Apocalypse Never I expose the *financial, political and ideological motivations. Environmental groups have accepted hundreds of millions of dollars from fossil fuel interests. Groups motivated by anti-humanist beliefs forced the World Bank to stop trying to end poverty and instead make poverty “sustainable”. And status anxiety, depression and hostility to modern civilisation are behind much of the alarmism.

You should also have a look at Michael Moore's film if you have not seen it already.

Surely you have woken up to the con of renewable energy after seeing the brits counting wood chips as Renewable when the burning of them produces more CO2 than coal. Wood chips that come from the USA, get railed or roaded to port, shipped to Britain, road or railed to the DRAX power stations and the trees may grow back in 30-50 years.

It reminds me of an old quote I think from the Vietnam war.
"In order to save the village we had to destroy it"

Have you thought of how many people die mining the cobalt in those SA batteries?

The USA is moving out of coal to natural gas at the moment and Australia should follow if we wish to have affordable reliable electricity.

In SA they have concluded that the whole network is being stressed by solar and are planning controls to prevent people exporting their solar power at times of low demand to protect the network.
It could happen to you in the near future also.
Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

First google hits.

Hornsdale Power Reserve - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve)
Tesla just made its giant battery reserve in South Australia even bigger | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/843957/tesla-battery-south-australia/)

Percentage wise,it depends what is called “nicely profitable”,but in business,I wouldn’t call it that.In fact it’s quite a long way off.Then there was the added cost of the upgrade.

The battery will also deteriorate over time,possibly have reduced capacity, and need replacing,but who knows when that will be.

[PhilipA]

Tesla guarantee 80% in 8 years for cars but I don't know about Powerwalls.
One thing Tesla is good at is battery design , control and most important cooling.
****house at building cars.
Regards PhilipA

[Slunnie]

Percentage wise,it depends what is called “nicely profitable”,but in business,I wouldn’t call it that.In fact it’s quite a long way off.Then there was the added cost of the upgrade.

The battery will also deteriorate over time,possibly have reduced capacity, and need replacing,but who knows when that will be.

Oh well, profitable, nicely profitable, it seems their case for justifying it is still sound. From a household perspective however it seems that batterys are not profitable. Batterys I think are typically warranted for 10 years and I can only assume the SA Tesla battery would be at least that. Assumptions hey, right! But all of that information is fairly predicatable.

[Slunnie]

Tesla guarantee 80% in 8 years for cars but I don't know about Powerwalls.
One thing Tesla is good at is battery design , control and most important cooling.
****house at building cars.
Regards PhilipA

I understood the Tesla powerwall has a 10 year warranty. Sadly they wont pay for themselves domestically.

[DiscoMick]

How Australia's state energy ministers are turning the tables on Angus Taylor

How Australia's state energy ministers are turning the tables on Angus Taylor | Simon Holmes a Court | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/11/how-australias-state-energy-ministers-are-turning-the-tables-on-angus-taylor?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

[Slunnie]

How Australia's state energy ministers are turning the tables on Angus Taylor

How Australia's state energy ministers are turning the tables on Angus Taylor | Simon Holmes a Court | Environment | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jul/11/how-australias-state-energy-ministers-are-turning-the-tables-on-angus-taylor?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard)

It's great, someone with integrity and a can do attitude amongst the nay sayers.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, electricity generation is a state responsibility anyway, it's just a pity the federal government is delaying the inevitable.

[DiscoMick]

Another step forwards with 24 hour energy from a mainly renewable project to lower power costs in the Mt Isa region.

Renewable energy pitched to create hundreds jobs for North West Queensland
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/$600-million-renewable-energy-vast-solar-mount-isa-hundreds-jobs/12474824

[windsock]

Another step forwards with 24 hour energy from a mainly renewable project to lower power costs in the Mt Isa region.

Renewable energy pitched to create hundreds jobs for North West Queensland
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/$600-million-renewable-energy-vast-solar-mount-isa-hundreds-jobs/12474824

From the posted link


Vast Solar wants to develop a 50-megawatt power plant that would combine a solar photovoltaic (PV) system, a large-scale battery, and gas engines with solar-thermal power technology using mirrors and receiving towers.

So how does this work? An interesting concept but the article was short on technical specifics and heavy on community-consultation-speak.

Do they use PV to reflect the thermal energy towards the towers? PV on individual trackers in order to redirect the reflected heat to a tower? Or is the PV solar farm a separate entity entirely from the thermal plant?

PPA still to be signed. That'll be the milestone. Getting buy-in.

Sounds interesting on paper. Did a journal search for any technical analysis but couldn't find any. Any one got any links to any technical reports from the 6MWth (1.1.MWe) pilot plant in Jemalong? Jemalong CSP Pilot Plant – 1.1MWe | Vast Solar (https://vastsolar.com/portfolio-items/jemalong-solar-station-pilot-1-1mwe/)

[DiscoMick]

Tesla Powerwalls are very popular in Australia.
BTW The Netherlands top the list because that is the port where they land for Europe.

https://twitter.com/VedaPrime/status/1298025993685229568's=19

[Homestar]

Yeah, we have a lot of Electric Jesus worshippers here. [emoji6]

[PhilipA]

Ask the Californicationers what they think about renewable energy now.
Regards PhilipA

[Eevo]

not mine but sums up my thought nicely

If you like to have hot coffee in the morning and a hot dinner at night you had better be thankful that there is enough conventional power available because your coffee and your dinner would be cold if we had to depend on the wind and the sun to heat them.
Four factors make it hard for RE to work in Australia. First the frequent and prolonged wind droughts (see June for example) and also WA, SA and Victoria today. Second is the “choke point factor’ that means the sustainability of RE is limited by the lowest points of supply, not the installed capacity, the high points or the average (think about our need for a constant supply of air to our lungs and what happened when we are choking or drowning). Third is the island effect, we have no neighbours to help out if we are short, unlike most places in the developed world. California has rolling blackouts but it will not go completely black because it is not an island. Finally, there is no grid scale storage in sight for the foreseeable future. Please don’t refer to the Tesla batteries as storage at grid scale. And pumped hydro? Believer it when you see it:)

[DiscoMick]

Australian coal plants 'on a hiding to nothing' and likely to close before schedule | Energy | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/sep/07/australian-coal-plants-on-a-hiding-to-nothing-and-likely-to-close-before-schedule?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[PhilipA]

Soooo.
we seem to want rolling blackouts like California then. A new warning was issued Yesterday.

The problem is that it is hot in other states so they cannot do the usual sleight of hand and import power from Arizona etc.

Renewables are Ok if you have a backup gas or coal or nuclear to bail you out. And California is planning to close existing gas plants because they use seawater for cooling. CRAZY STUFF!

BTW I am not going to subscribe to the Guardian in a million years. Let them go broke.
Regards PhilipA

[1984V8110]

I'm struggling a bit to square the Guardian's comments about coal fired power stations being on a hiding to nothing when I see that in 2018, Queensland's (largely coal fired) state owned power stations paid dividends to the Qld government of 1.65 billion dollars.

I have scanned the report to which the Guardian article refers. It largely takes as a given that older coal fired plants will retire 'as scheduled' and then discusses how the grid might respond to the problems caused by an increased reliance on intermittent renewables, including the need to manage demand, increase energy storage and replace the frequency control supplied for free by spinning turbines in fossil fuelled power stations. In fact it rather highlights the problems that an intermittent supply of electricity places on the grid. As one might expect it takes a fairly optimistic view of how this would be resolved, but provides no costing on what the replacement of services like guaranteed availability and frequency control that come from thermal power plants will be. I guess we'll find out whether the technological optimists are correct over the next decade or so!

[vnx205]

This is a bit of a surprise.

Queensland top state for breakdowns of fossil fuel power stations | Mirage News (https://www.miragenews.com/queensland-top-state-for-breakdowns-of-fossil-fuel-power-stations/)

[NavyDiver]

Several years ago I read about what happens in power station control rooms in the UK when there is a sudden demand. The scenario was when there was a major football match, such as a final being broadcast. As soon as the match finished the millions watching it on TV made a dash for the kitchen and turned on their electric kettles to make a cup of tea. Oops!

With a conventional thermal power station you can keep units running on low load ready to take up the surge, but unless you have a direct line to the almighty, that is going to be a problem with a wind farm.

I posted previously about the lack of "inertia" in a grid relying on both wind and solar, and it is still a problem.

Its interesting. France is about 70% nuclear but is aiming to reduce the need for it to 50% by 2035. German has gone from over 20% nuclear to just over 10%. nuclear is very stable output as ramping up or down is not the done thing with that generation.

Love your kettle comment. My work kettle, microwave on top of all my computers, lights and AC turning on at 8am every day was a drip to far if my Hot water service kicked in . I added a timer to the hot water service so it can only come on at midnight. Coal fire power is dead/dying here and elsewhere.

https://www.world-nuclear.org/getmedia/c907634e-4bb5-4a41-970e-40b8ec55c1a6/world-electricity-production.png.aspx

RE your comment batteries are cheap for storage Mick. Not really true I think. The South Oz ones for example are expensive short term minnows. That said a big school of minnows can be rather large. SA on that one with a 18 million investment in a Virtual power plant mad up of hundreds of Solar PV and Batteries (https://www.pv-magazine-australia.com/2020/09/04/sa-social-housing-to-become-worlds-biggest-vpp/) they have a hand on.

I like my batteries as a back up. Suspect I will add another 5kws to make a 10kw Solar PV and be off grid most days at work soon. It pays for it self very quickly if you self consume all or most.

[Old Farang]

It doesn't really matter what fuel is used in a thermal power station; coal, gas, nuclear, wood chips, cows farts or whatever will burn. In all of them the energy conversion is to produce steam, which in turn is used to drive a bloody great rotating mass configured as an electrical generator.

As a big rotating mass it possesses a lot of inertia, which directly influences stability, resulting in the ability to absorb grid surges and sudden fluctuations. There also seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about grid frequency. EVERY AC generator connected to a power grid, be it a couple of diesel generators in an outback town off the grid, up to multi MW grid power stations, HAS to run at the SAME frequency, as once connected they are all synchronised by by the simple rotating rising and fall of the voltage, know as a sine wave. They will all stay synchronised regardless of their actual load output, even to the point of becoming a motor if their energy input is less than that required to output power into the grid.

The point here is that the present state of both solar and wind generation does NOT possess these attributes, and will rapidly disconnect to protect the equipment, which has been proven the case in many countries that have big solar, and more particularly wind powered grids.

[PhilipA]

My daughter just installed solar panels in Saratoga Central coast NSW.

Apparently her Inverter is turning off feed in as the voltage in the system is getting too high.

So an electrician has recommended getting the supplier to change her phases on the wires outside.

I can see this becoming more and more of a problem.

What happens if the other phase is also going over voltage?
Regards PhilipA

[Graeme]

The grid supply has to be within spec when the inverter is off. If not then the transformer tap has to be changed to bring the voltage within spec. Once voltage is within spec the inverter must throttle back to prevent excessive voltage.
I had to have my supply transformer re-tapped and then the parameters in the inverter changed to prevent excessive voltage. In the end I provided to my PV supplier the parameters that were needed as the PV supplier didn't have a clue as to the use and effect of the parameters.

[Ferret]

...The point here is that the present state of both solar and wind generation does NOT possess these attributes, and will rapidly disconnect to protect the equipment, which has been proven the case in many countries that have big solar, and more particularly wind powered grids.

In WA the grid is already under stress with supply authorities moving to reduce the risk of renewable energy overloading the state's electricity system.

Daytime solar subsidies to be slashed as WA moves to head off grid overload. (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-31/wa-solar-subsidy-overhaul-to-avoid-grid-overload/12608036)


...rooftop solar in WA had effectively become the single biggest power plant in the state and threatened to crowd out the baseload generators needed to keep the grid secure.

Energy analyst Matthew Warren, a former head of industry body the Electricity Supply Association of Australia, likened the number of solar panels in WA to a "giant, invisible power station" that could not be controlled.

[Homestar]

My daughter just installed solar panels in Saratoga Central coast NSW.

Apparently her Inverter is turning off feed in as the voltage in the system is getting too high.

So an electrician has recommended getting the supplier to change her phases on the wires outside.

I can see this becoming more and more of a problem.

What happens if the other phase is also going over voltage?
Regards PhilipA

This is a common problem and not something most people understand. I see it all the time when there is a lot of solar in one area. Each inverter needs to push the voltage up to export its power but the over voltage limits for the grid can’t be exceeded so the inverter shuts down. At my place on a sunny morning - not during lockdown but when things are normal - around 11am the voltage is around 255 volts here which allowing for the voltage drop on my line means the mains is pretty much at its limit. the local zone substation can tap the main incoming voltage up and down automatically but on the feeders the tapping is done manually so once set generally won’t be changed unless there’s a substantial change to conditions to warrant it but high voltage during the day and normal to lower voltage at night means a change in taps at a local level isn’t going to happen.

You can’t just have every house with solar trying to export to the grid if there’s nowhere for it to go - the grid isn’t one big thing that will just move power from wherever to somewhere else, but more localised when actual physics gets involved.

One solution is to get a storage system so the panels can charge them during the day, but of course this comes at a fairly high price. Another option is to load shift as much of their power needs to the day - have appliances with timers that can work during the day - washing machines, dishwashers, etc. If they have hot water you can also use that as a power sink and heat up the water when there is nothing else and nowhere for the power to go.

[Old Farang]

The grid supply has to be within spec when the inverter is off. If not then the transformer tap has to be changed to bring the voltage within spec. Once voltage is within spec the inverter must throttle back to prevent excessive voltage.
I had to have my supply transformer re-tapped and then the parameters in the inverter changed to prevent excessive voltage. In the end I provided to my PV supplier the parameters that were needed as the PV supplier didn't have a clue as to the use and effect of the parameters.
Is your grid supply on your own transformer, such as a rural supply? If your supply is a common line from a street then it may not be possible to change it. If a 3 phase street supply and you are connecting to a single phase house supply from the street it may be possible to connect to a different phase.

The normal street supply should be via a transformer than has automatic tap changing to compensate for load changes. The supply authority tries to keep the voltage within a small set range with varying loads, using automatic tap changing.

But why is the grid input line voltage not able to compensated for by the inverter? I have not had anything to do with the types of inverter used with solar, so just asking. My view is that the inverter is where adjustments should be made, not the grid supply voltage.

[Graeme]

Mine is a rural supply with a transformer just for my use. The grid voltage had been set high when the transformer was installed some 15 years ago to allow for voltage drop on the undersize wires on the long run to the house. The inverter is much closer to the transformer so the grid voltage had to be lowered to spec then the inverter's limits adjusted for the voltage drop during export on the short undersize run to the transormer. However the voltage limits for the various stages were grossly incorrect causing the catch-all limit to shut down the inverter before it had a chance to derate. My inverter is Fronius which is very configurable..

[NavyDiver]

It doesn't really matter what fuel is used in a thermal power station; coal, gas, nuclear, wood chips, cows farts or whatever will burn. In all of them the energy conversion is to produce steam, which in turn is used to drive a bloody great rotating mass configured as an electrical generator.

As a big rotating mass it possesses a lot of inertia, which directly influences stability, resulting in the ability to absorb grid surges and sudden fluctuations. There also seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about grid frequency. EVERY AC generator connected to a power grid, be it a couple of diesel generators in an outback town off the grid, up to multi MW grid power stations, HAS to run at the SAME frequency, as once connected they are all synchronised by by the simple rotating rising and fall of the voltage, know as a sine wave. They will all stay synchronised regardless of their actual load output, even to the point of becoming a motor if their energy input is less than that required to output power into the grid.

The point here is that the present state of both solar and wind generation does NOT possess these attributes, and will rapidly disconnect to protect the equipment, which has been proven the case in many countries that have big solar, and more particularly wind powered grids.

Fully agree that the current tech needs a lot of modification to allow a stable grid. You missed fuel cells. Scaling up at the moment for iron refining and ships and of interest may work with ammonia or hydrogen. Via electrolysis any spare solar can b

Pretty sure the load balancing via storage will be the main key to changes needed to avoid further co2 emissions. I have a share or two in Ballard TCO is the real cost of ownership which has changed a lot already. Cost of there products has gone down over 80% while several thousand sites are using the tech now. Its a lot like the 1-2kw solar system 20 years ago which cost well over 20k in today terms.

The real point might be follow the MONEY


"To date, 18 governments, whose economies account for 70 per cent of globalGDP, have developed detailed strategies for deploying hydrogen energy solutions. "



https://hydrogencouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Path-to-Hydrogen-Competitiveness_Full-Study-1.pdf

[Homestar]

It doesn't really matter what fuel is used in a thermal power station; coal, gas, nuclear, wood chips, cows farts or whatever will burn. In all of them the energy conversion is to produce steam, which in turn is used to drive a bloody great rotating mass configured as an electrical generator.

As a big rotating mass it possesses a lot of inertia, which directly influences stability, resulting in the ability to absorb grid surges and sudden fluctuations. There also seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about grid frequency. EVERY AC generator connected to a power grid, be it a couple of diesel generators in an outback town off the grid, up to multi MW grid power stations, HAS to run at the SAME frequency, as once connected they are all synchronised by by the simple rotating rising and fall of the voltage, know as a sine wave. They will all stay synchronised regardless of their actual load output, even to the point of becoming a motor if their energy input is less than that required to output power into the grid.

The point here is that the present state of both solar and wind generation does NOT possess these attributes, and will rapidly disconnect to protect the equipment, which has been proven the case in many countries that have big solar, and more particularly wind powered grids.

Yep, the rotating magnetic fields keep the units rotating at exactly the same frequency with the rotor locked together, the magnetic fields are incredibly strong. If you have a group of machine together in sync and one starts to run out of fuel, you can just watch the load drop off it as it starves for fuel but still maintaining the groups frequency. Once it starts to motor, the control system will open the breaker and shut the unit down though on reverse power. Interesting to watch. 👍

[Old Farang]

Once it starts to motor, the control system will open the breaker and shut the unit down though on reverse power. Interesting to watch. 👍
On ships testing the reverse power trips are always first on the **** list of any surveyor. Even in the old DC ships this was always tested. The old type of open face DC breakers could be spectacular! More modern types of protection devices on AC gens are more of a non-event.

On top of that, most of those critical types of installations had "Preferential" tripping circuits that also had to be set up and tested. The idea being to maintain supply to essential loads. (such as the chief engineers air con. [biggrin])

[Homestar]

Modern generator control systems make a lot of this stuff very dull by comparison to the old days. I learned to sync gensets with a syncroscope and adjusting the governors. Manual closing of the breakers so you needed to have your wits about you. Today you close the first breaker to energise the bus, then each machine is a push of a button and it will automatically sync the machine and close the breaker or you can go one further and have the whole system just do it’s own thing based on load and demand.

[DiscoMick]

Mine is a rural supply with a transformer just for my use. The grid voltage had been set high when the transformer was installed some 15 years ago to allow for voltage drop on the undersize wires on the long run to the house. The inverter is much closer to the transformer so the grid voltage had to be lowered to spec then the inverter's limits adjusted for the voltage drop during export on the short undersize run to the transormer. However the voltage limits for the various stages were grossly incorrect causing the catch-all limit to shut down the inverter before it had a chance to derate. My inverter is Fronius which is very configurable..Your point about undersize wiring from street to house is not mentioned much, but is important. We are currently having ours upgraded from 6mm to 25mm to overcome voltage drop when our solar is exporting to the grid. This is on the advice of our solar installer and electricians.

Our inverter often reads the grid voltage at around 251 volts in the middle of the day in our rural residential area, so I think there is still a margin to export some more solar.

[Graeme]

My system includes a smart meter in the meter box on the pole which has 16mm2 cable from the 10 KVA transformer. My inverter's voltage limits include an allowance for the voltage difference between the smart meter and the inverter at peak export, with the agreement of the local Essential Energy inspector. The inspector was prepared to allow a slightly higher peak grid voltage but that wasn't necessary as derating is minimal with the current settings.

EE have a policy of not allowing private service upgrades to transformer poles which has been interpreted by the local EE inspector to include wiring upgrades rather than the addition of more services. He won't allow our pole to inverter 20m private overheads to be upgraded from 6mm2 to the necessary 16mm2, instead requiring a separate pole and then underground to the inverter plus upgrading the overhead to the house to bring the house connection up to current allowable voltage drop standards. I had a quote of approx $15K a few years ago to put all power underground from where the inverter is located so now would be well over $20K excluding a new pole and its associated costs. The PV savings don't justify an additional $20K investment. Furthermore our feed-in tariff is set to drop from 21 cents to 12 cents mid October adding $400+ to our annual power bill which increases the existing PV system's pay-back period significantly.

[DiscoMick]

My system includes a smart meter in the meter box on the pole which has 16mm2 cable from the 10 KVA transformer. My inverter's voltage limits include an allowance for the voltage difference between the smart meter and the inverter at peak export, with the agreement of the local Essential Energy inspector. The inspector was prepared to allow a slightly higher peak grid voltage but that wasn't necessary as derating is minimal with the current settings.

EE have a policy of not allowing private service upgrades to transformer poles which has been interpreted by the local EE inspector to include wiring upgrades rather than the addition of more services. He won't allow our pole to inverter 20m private overheads to be upgraded from 6mm2 to the necessary 16mm2, instead requiring a separate pole and then underground to the inverter plus upgrading the overhead to the house to bring the house connection up to current allowable voltage drop standards. I had a quote of approx $15K a few years ago to put all power underground from where the inverter is located so now would be well over $20K excluding a new pole and its associated costs. The PV savings don't justify an additional $20K investment. Furthermore our feed-in tariff is set to drop from 21 cents to 12 cents mid October adding $400+ to our annual power bill which increases the existing PV system's pay-back period significantly.Yes, that is a lot of money.
We are spending about $7k for our new underground connection from pole to house, but that includes a new box on the house and a second connection from pole to the new garages, including a 40A circuit to cope with welding. There are also some internal upgrades in the house.
Our old system is 30 years old and pretty dodgy, so we are getting it up to a modern standard. For example, there is already a second phase from pole to house, but it was for the hot water heater we no longer have, is disconnected and our electrician thinks it is too light and is not keen to use it. Better to start again with 25mm, he thinks.
The whole electricity system is being revolutionised as it moves away from a small number of centralised coal power stations towards a decentralised system with lots of solar, wind and batteries, so the transmission companies have to adapt or lose customers. Consumers have been burned by overcharging by power companies and see household solar as the way to cut their bills.

[Eevo]

Consumers have been burned by overcharging by power companies and see household solar as the way to cut their bills.

the govt over the years and their lack of control is also to blame.

[DiscoMick]

Your point about undersize wiring from street to house is not mentioned much, but is important. We are currently having ours upgraded from 6mm to 26mm to overcome voltage drop when our solar is exporting to the grid. This is on the advice of our solar installer and electricians.

Our inverter often reads the grid voltage at around 251 volts in the middle of the day in our rural residential area, so I think there is still a margin to export some more solar.Here's the difference between the 6mm original wire to the street and the 25mm new connection, so that should slash the voltage drop.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200909/1d7b5f3c2c4a071472c7bea97d37d5de.jpg

[Homestar]

Here's the difference between the 6mm original wire to the street and the 25mm new connection, so that should slash the voltage drop.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200909/1d7b5f3c2c4a071472c7bea97d37d5de.jpg

Assuming a 50 metre cable run and say full load being fed back into the grid from a 5KW system (around 20 amps), then around 2.5% better (Remembering voltage drop has to stay within 5%) so yes a worthwhile upgrade - for a variety of reasons. That old cable would have limited your usage to around 30 amps give or take so that on it's own is a good result in my book. The 25mm cable would allow over 100 amps if you needed it (again, assuming the 50 metre length - could be lot longer, but just for rough calcs).

[Vern]

Assuming a 50 metre cable run and say full load being fed back into the grid from a 5KW system (around 20 amps), then around 2.5% better (Remembering voltage drop has to stay within 5%) so yes a worthwhile upgrade - for a variety of reasons. That old cable would have limited your usage to around 30 amps give or take so that on it's own is a good result in my book. The 25mm cable would allow over 100 amps if you needed it (again, assuming the 50 metre length - could be lot longer, but just for rough calcs).Volt drop for solar is less. 2% from the street to the inverter basically.

[Homestar]

Volt drop for solar is less. 2% from the street to the inverter basically.

Ah - thanks. I've not done any Solar installations. Then he was already toast with the 6mm then.

[Old Farang]

We are spending about $7k for our new underground connection from pole to house,
Don't forget that the allowed current capacity for a cable buried underground is a lot less than a cable strung in the open air. Just another reason to upgrade it.

[Vern]

Ah - thanks. I've not done any Solar installations. Then he was already toast with the 6mm then.Yeah its a pain really. I just quoted a job yesterday to get power to a shed 250m away for solar. 630mm2 cable is required, or conductors in parallel.
Could use 95mm2 if we went to 5% volt drop.

[DiscoMick]

Assuming a 50 metre cable run and say full load being fed back into the grid from a 5KW system (around 20 amps), then around 2.5% better (Remembering voltage drop has to stay within 5%) so yes a worthwhile upgrade - for a variety of reasons. That old cable would have limited your usage to around 30 amps give or take so that on it's own is a good result in my book. The 25mm cable would allow over 100 amps if you needed it (again, assuming the 50 metre length - could be lot longer, but just for rough calcs).Thanks. The electrician said the voltage drop would vary depending on several factors, and quoted some numbers, but could only improve with the thicker cable.
There are also other reasons for the upgrade, including the need to run a separate connection to our new shed, sized to cope with welding.
We will actually end up with three underground connections, one new one to each of the house and shed, plus the existing connection, and a new switchboard, plus some upgraded internal wiring.
We should get full value out of the solar too.

[DiscoMick]

Qld could create more jobs from renewables than it does currently in coal fired power stations, according to this report.

Graziers join calls for Queensland Government to stop spruiking coal and embrace renewable future
Graziers join calls for Queensland Government to stop spruiking coal and embrace renewable future - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-11/queensland-cattle-graziers-end-coal-embrace-renewables-climate/12735320)

[DiscoMick]

Logan council is turning sewage into biochar and burning it to generate electricity. Go Logan!

Logan City turning human waste into energy in move to go carbon neutral within two years
Logan City turning human waste into energy in move to go carbon neutral within two years - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-12/logan-city-aims-to-use-poo-power-human-waste-to-energy/12748782)

[Homestar]

Logan council is turning sewage into biochar and burning it to generate electricity. Go Logan!

Logan City turning human waste into energy in move to go carbon neutral within two years
Logan City turning human waste into energy in move to go carbon neutral within two years - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-12/logan-city-aims-to-use-poo-power-human-waste-to-energy/12748782)

Should I make the comment about Logan having more than it’s fair share of **** to do this with? [emoji56]

[Old Farang]

Renewable energy to replace coal in WA's biggest power grid as solar hollows market, report predicts
Renewable energy to replace coal in WA'''s biggest power grid as solar hollows market, report predicts - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-12/future-of-wa-energy-system-half-coal-power-plants-shut-by-2025/12750068)

More than half of Western Australia's remaining coal-fired electricity capacity could be phased out within five years, according to a landmark report which charts the extraordinary rise of renewable energy.


[QUOTE]Renewables must not compromise grid: Minister[QUOTE]Development of the blueprint follows warnings from the body that runs the market — the Australian Energy Market Operator (AEMO) — that the power system could become unstable as early as 2022 as the amount of renewable energy threatened to overwhelm demand.
At the core of AEMO's concerns was the way in which vast quantities of rooftop solar power flooded uncontrolled on to the system during the middle of the day, often forcing out other generators such as gas and coal-fired plants.
AEMO said while the solar panels supplied emissions-free energy, it was the conventional generators that provided the "firming" services which helped to keep the grid stable.

[discorevy]

Logan council is turning sewage into biochar and burning it to generate electricity. Go Logan!

Logan City turning human waste into energy in move to go carbon neutral within two years
Logan City turning human waste into energy in move to go carbon neutral within two years - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-12/logan-city-aims-to-use-poo-power-human-waste-to-energy/12748782)


Breaking wi..... News
The grogans from bogans in Logan are on fire [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

Poor old Logan bogans get bagged out all the time. You'd think people would be cheering for the battlers, wanting them to make a go of life, but no, it's easier to criticise than to support, it seems. I'm backing the bogans.

[scarry]

Should I make the comment about Logan having more than it’s fair share of **** to do this with? [emoji56]

Hang on,i have lived in Logan nearly all my life.

When we first arrived here most of the roads were dirt.No housing estates,just farms and vacant land,mostly scrub.

There are parts of Logan,and other parts of Logan,if you know what i mean[biggrin][wink11]

[ramblingboy42]

Should I make the comment about Logan having more than it’s fair share of **** to do this with? [emoji56]

yes

[DiscoMick]

Logan is named after a military officer who became notorious for his brutality, so it had a bad start to overcome.

[DiscoMick]

Wholesale electricity prices have fallen to a five-year low thanks to household solar power and Covid restrictions reducing demand.

Rooftop solar and Covid shutdown lead to record lows in Australian electricity use | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/oct/22/rooftop-solar-and-covid-shutdown-lead-to-record-lows-in-australian-electricity-use?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[Eevo]

oh boy, cant wait for my power bill to come down!

[NavyDiver]

Wholesale electricity prices have fallen to a five-year low thanks to household solar power and Covid restrictions reducing demand.

Rooftop solar and Covid shutdown lead to record lows in Australian electricity use | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/oct/22/rooftop-solar-and-covid-shutdown-lead-to-record-lows-in-australian-electricity-use?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

Happy to share Mick not happy to be exploited for other greedy sods to profit from myself. The second I can store and use all my excess Solar PV I will. Chuckle about the threats to have Authorities take control of your solar export to the grid- On Authority- Think Respect my authoritah <strong>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbebjUYItKw
.
I assume changes occurring will allow us all a lot more flexibility not a lot more regulations. Its odd that the old school ANTI efficient changes which are rapidly becoming cheaper are still rubbished and belittled by some. Such Is Life[bigwhistle] R.O.I. is a key overlooked by some still.

Noted I have just been suspended from a pre90s navy crew forum for 24 hours[thumbsupbig] I tossed a Carlton and FC (Fire Control) joke in and the response of a 24hour suspension has me on the deck laughing and a few hundred shipmates thinking, incorrectly, World War Three just started[biggrin]

[DiscoMick]

oh boy, cant wait for my power bill to come down!Reductions are wholesale, so maybe you should complain to your retailer, who is pocketing the savings.

[Eevo]

Reductions are wholesale, so maybe you should complain to your retailer, who is pocketing the savings.

but the wholesale price is not coming down.

[DiscoMick]

The wholesale price changes every five minutes on the national market, so it's hard to calculate.

[Eevo]

The wholesale price changes every five minutes on the national market, so it's hard to calculate.

thats the spot price.

if you add them all up and divide them, you get an average.
the average is not going down.

[DiscoMick]

All of South Australia's power comes from solar panels in world first for major jurisdiction
All of South Australia'&#39;'s power comes from solar panels in world first for major jurisdiction - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-25/all-sa-power-from-solar-for-first-time/12810366)

[Old Farang]

All of South Australia's power comes from solar panels in world first for major jurisdiction
All of South Australia'''s power comes from solar panels in world first for major jurisdiction - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-25/all-sa-power-from-solar-for-first-time/12810366)

It needs to be read in conjunction with the following:

Solar power contributes to cheaper energy but also 'critical' grid instability, warns ESB



Solar power contributes to cheaper energy but also '''critical''' grid instability, warns ESB - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-24/solar-power-means-cheaper-energy-but-grid-instability/11993776)

"The grid is congested, it's weighed down and it's not coping with the rapid change that's occurring across the energy system at the moment," added Mr Thornton.


Dr Schott warned that the surge in renewables also posed a return threat to the grid and its ability to consistently keep the lights on.

"The system wasn't built for it [renewables], but neither was anyone else's system in the world and everyone is going through the same type of change," she said.

[DiscoMick]

It's okay, they are already moving to cope with that.

[Tombie]

It's okay, they are already moving to cope with that.

You miss the point...

Would you buy your Defender if it had been sold as "we haven't sorted the brakes yet, we will fix them as we go along"

When the grid trips over and we go down again (think SA) and for whatever reason they cant stabilise it again quick enough - the damage is done.



Solutions should come BEFORE shut downs of stable assets, imagine if astronauts had been sent to walk in space BEFORE their suits had been designed. [bigrolf]

[DiscoMick]

That's why the rules now allow the power authorities to turn off household solar if the grid becomes too unstable.

[Eevo]

That's why the rules now allow the power authorities to turn off household solar if the grid becomes too unstable.

except that wont fix the problem.

[PhilipA]

So when they build a NSW connector, SA will further screw over our coal fired power stations during the day while drawing on NSW power at night.
The Commonwealth had better get this gas fired stations up and running quickly.
This also implies that wholesale power will go negative cost during the day as SA tries to flog it’s excess.
Hpusholds will love no money from solar uploads if they turn off inputs during the day.

regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

A few ideas be tried on using any excess energy for storage as Hydrogen make a lot of sense I think. Similar to pumped hydro but can be anywhere unlike pumped hydro . A few hydrogen electrolysis plants can be co located at sites which may have that excess at times and deficits at others its an effective margin play. Suspect we will see this sooner than later.

Happened already in Scotland.

Scotland’s Orkney Islands produce more clean energy than their inhabitants can use. Their next step? Hydrogen. Here’s why that matters – and what the rest of the world could learn.


How hydrogen is transforming these tiny Scottish islands - BBC Future (https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190327-the-tiny-islands-leading-the-way-in-hydrogen-power#:~:text=So%20residents%20came%20up%20with,cl ean%20energy%20to%20produce%20hydrogen%3F&text=The%20hydrogen%20that%20Lidderdale%20pumped,w here%20about%20130%20people%20live.)

[Slunnie]

So when they build a NSW connector, SA will further screw over our coal fired power stations during the day while drawing on NSW power at night.
The Commonwealth had better get this gas fired stations up and running quickly.
This also implies that wholesale power will go negative cost during the day as SA tries to flog it’s excess.
Hpusholds will love no money from solar uploads if they turn off inputs during the day.

regards PhilipA

It'll make storage financially viable in that case. It also wont be a good situation if everybody isolates themself from buying off the network.

[NavyDiver]

Those rotten Sydney people are at it again. "A 500kW electrolyser" for “In the future Australians will need to decide what to do with excess renewable energy on very windy or very sunny days. Jemena’s Power to Gas trial will demonstrate how existing gas pipeline technology can store excess renewable energy for weeks and months, making it more efficient than batteries which can only store excess renewable energy for minutes or hours.”Frank Tudor, Managing Director, Jemena. Jemena&#39;s Power to Gas Trial - Jemena (https://jemena.com.au/about/innovation/power-to-gas-trial)

[DiscoMick]

Victoria to install a bigger battery.

Victoria plans 300MW Tesla battery to help stabilise grid as renewables increase | Energy | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/nov/05/victoria-plans-300mw-tesla-battery-to-help-stabilise-grid-as-renewables-increase?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[NavyDiver]

Victoria to install a bigger battery.

Victoria plans 300MW Tesla battery to help stabilise grid as renewables increase | Energy | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/nov/05/victoria-plans-300mw-tesla-battery-to-help-stabilise-grid-as-renewables-increase?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

My issue with my or those batteries is they have a limited life 10 years and a limit on charge/discharge cycles. "The state has signed an $84 million contract with Neoen for the project" I bet that we are going to pay a lot more than 84 million for it!


I had to chuckle at this bit "Shadow Minister for Energy and Renewables, Ryan Smith, said the battery should be built 150 kilometres further west at Mortlake.He said it would be closer to other renewable energy projects, and less energy would be lost in transmission."

The power loss from or to Geelong or Mortlake would be negotiable. The price of land might be a bit more

Japan has a great way of balancing load. Share it - Panorama - Next Kraftwerke and Toshiba establish JV for VPP Services - Renewable Energy Magazine, at the heart of clean energy journalism (https://www.renewableenergymagazine.com/panorama/next-kraftwerke-and-toshiba-establish-jv-for-20201103)

[Tombie]

VPPs are offered in Australia. Nothing new there.

[DiscoMick]

NSW government is certainly taking renewable energy seriously.

NSW unveils $32bn renewable energy plan with focus on pumped hydro | New South Wales | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/nov/09/nsw-unveils-32bn-renewable-energy-plan-with-focus-on-pumped-hydro?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[DiscoMick]

Good summary of world's leading countries in shifting to alternative energies. Subsidies are no longer needed, just good policies and regulations to attract private investors. If only Australia would wake up and learn the lesson.

Climate heroes: the countries pioneering a green future | Renewable energy | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/11/climate-heroes-the-countries-pioneering-a-green-future?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[DiscoMick]

Massive renewable projects are going ahead.

Green giants: the massive projects that could make Australia a clean energy superpower | Energy | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/14/green-giants-the-massive-projects-that-could-make-australia-a-clean-energy-superpower?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[Homestar]

Massive renewable projects are going ahead.

Green giants: the massive projects that could make Australia a clean energy superpower | Energy | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/14/green-giants-the-massive-projects-that-could-make-australia-a-clean-energy-superpower?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

Now that’s pretty cool. Hope they build the whole thing. [emoji106]

[Tombie]

Massive renewable projects are going ahead.

Green giants: the massive projects that could make Australia a clean energy superpower | Energy | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/nov/14/green-giants-the-massive-projects-that-could-make-australia-a-clean-energy-superpower?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

That would be pretty impressive if it goes ahead at full spec.

[DiscoMick]

The Australian Government is surrounded by leaders taking climate action. Will it step up?
The Australian Government is surrounded by leaders taking climate action. Will it step up? - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-22/the-world-strides-global-warming-australian-government-behind/12904200)

[NavyDiver]

CSIRO Chief Energy Economist Paul Graham said the new metric added extra insight to this year's report.
"Previous GenCost reports added arbitrary amounts of storage costs, but this year we used a model of the electricity system that optimises the amount of storage needed, and also includes additional transmission expenditure," Mr Graham said.
"Even taking into account these extra system integration costs, solar photovoltaics (PV) and wind continue to be the cheapest new sources of electricity for any expected share of renewables in the grid — anywhere from 50 per cent to 100 per cent.
"This is projected to continue to be the case throughout the projection period to 2050."

The updated analyses also find that:


Solar PV and batteries are projected to continue experiencing the fastest cost reductions of any source of energy technology.
Hydrogen electrolysers are also projected to experience substantial cost reductions that will make them competitive with natural gas-based hydrogen production in the long run.
Wind capital costs are falling more slowly than solar, reflecting their relative maturity as an energy source; however wind capital costs continue to make gains through capturing more energy from the same wind resources, which means they will continue to be competitive.
Costs reductions for technologies not currently being widely deployed, such as carbon capture and storage, nuclear small modular reactors, solar thermal and ocean energy are lagging and would require stronger global investment to realise their full potential.

AEMO Group Manager Forecasting Nicola Falcon said the report was critical to future modelling.
"Electricity generation costs are a key ingredient into the electricity sector modelling which underpins much of the sector's strategic planning and policy analysis, including our Integrated System Plan," Ms Falcon said.
"Given the importance of this cost data, we are providing an opportunity for industry and other stakeholders to review the data as part of our Draft Inputs, Assumptions and Scenarios Report published today (https://aemo.com.au/energy-systems/major-publications/integrated-system-plan-isp)(available from 10am AEST) for consultation."
The final GenCost report is due to be delivered in March 2021.
Read the full draft report GenCost 2021 [pdf · 3mb] (https://www.csiro.au/~/media/News-releases/2020/renewables-cheapest/GenCost2020-21.pdf?la=en&hash=B2BC98D5AC4BED8BA6135BDF7E205CF49304870E)
....Renewables still the cheapest new-build power in Australia - CSIRO (https://www.csiro.au/en/News/News-releases/2020/Renewables-still-the-cheapest-new-build-power-in-Australia)

[PhilipA]

Navy Diver , did you see the riposte in the Australian, where the writer Terry Mcrann pointed out that all these claims rested on the imposition of a very substantial carbon tax that elevated coal and gas costs enormously.
Figures can lie and liars can figure.
I haven't read the full report but he did.
Maybe you can read the full report and report whether he is correct.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Navy Diver , did you see the riposte in the Australian, where the writer Terry Mcrann pointed out that all these claims rested on the imposition of a very substantial carbon tax that elevated coal and gas costs enormously.
Figures can lie and liars can figure.
I haven't read the full report but he did.
Maybe you can read the full report and report whether he is correct.
Regards PhilipA

Terry has his views which purposefully exclude and do not count some large costs. About 7,000,000+ die from air pollution every year. Its not just C02 in I.C.E. engines or coal. Happily posting in a Hydrogen thread as there is an option coming [thumbsupbig]

[Old Farang]

Largest battery in Australia to be built at ageing NSW coal-fired power plant

Largest An energy provider's plan to build Australia's largest battery is the latest development in a quickly transitioning energy market.battery in Australia to be built at ageing NSW coal-fired power plant - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-12/largest-battery-in-australia-to-be-built-at-nsw-coal-fired-plant/13050642)

An energy provider's plan to build Australia's largest battery is the latest development in a quickly transitioning energy market.

Origin Energy has unveiled plans to build a giant 700-megawatt capacity battery at its coal-fired power plant in Eraring, south of Newcastle, in the New South Wales Hunter region.
If the plan goes ahead, the battery would be more than four times larger than the 150-megawatt Tesla battery in South Australia.


Battery will use plant's existing infrastructure


The mega-battery will allow Origin to use the plant's existing infrastructure and network connections long after the plant has stopped producing energy by burning coal.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....................
Daytime solar subsidies to be slashed as WA moves to head off grid overload

Daytime solar subsidies to be slashed as WA moves to head off grid overload - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-31/wa-solar-subsidy-overhaul-to-avoid-grid-overload/12608036)

Subsidies to West Australian households that pump solar power to the grid during the middle of the day are set to be slashed in a bid to avoid the risk of renewable energy overloading the state's electricity system.

[Old Farang]

Plans unveiled for world's biggest battery in the Hunter Valley

Plans unveiled for world's biggest battery in the Hunter Valley - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-05/plans-unveiled-for-worlds-biggest-battery-in-hunter-valley/13124814)

Planning is underway for the world's largest battery to be built in the NSW Hunter Valley, with the company behind it confident that it will be up and running in two years.

CEP Energy, whose chairman is former NSW premier Morris Iemma, has secured a 30-year lease to install a 1,200-megawatt battery at Kurri Kurri north-west of Newcastle.

The company said it would be eight times more powerful than the Hornsdale battery that fuels South Australia's grid (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-02/tesla-battery-expanded-as-sa-energy-minister-lauds-benefits/12622382), and while it would be able to store many types of energy, it was expected to mainly store solar-generated power.

[Tombie]

Hmmmm

Germany’s ‘Green’ Energy Failure: Germany Turns Back To Coal And Natural Gas As millions Of Its Solar Panels Are Blanketed In Snow And Ice | Tech News | Startups News - WorldNewsEra (https://worldnewsera.com/news/startups/germanys-green-energy-failure-germany-turns-back-to-coal-and-natural-gas-as-millions-of-its-solar-panels-are-blanketed-in-snow-and-ice-tech-news-startup/?fbclid=IwAR3tv5aw7bkopBhs8pGby2XmNRJXtDdmcmqkSD2P ZXKhDAfqeKKRRN4-Rig)

[Tins]

Hmmmm

Germany’s ‘Green’ Energy Failure: Germany Turns Back To Coal And Natural Gas As millions Of Its Solar Panels Are Blanketed In Snow And Ice | Tech News | Startups News - WorldNewsEra (https://worldnewsera.com/news/startups/germanys-green-energy-failure-germany-turns-back-to-coal-and-natural-gas-as-millions-of-its-solar-panels-are-blanketed-in-snow-and-ice-tech-news-startup/?fbclid=IwAR3tv5aw7bkopBhs8pGby2XmNRJXtDdmcmqkSD2P ZXKhDAfqeKKRRN4-Rig)

Who didn't see that coming? Germany should go back to buying power from France's nukes. They're there, they work and they don't give a **** about weather.

[BradC]

and while it would be able to store many types of energy, it was expected to mainly store solar-generated power.

Blimey! I suppose electrons from "solar generated power" are different than the other "many types of energy".

[Homestar]

Hmmmm

Germany’s ‘Green’ Energy Failure: Germany Turns Back To Coal And Natural Gas As millions Of Its Solar Panels Are Blanketed In Snow And Ice | Tech News | Startups News - WorldNewsEra (https://worldnewsera.com/news/startups/germanys-green-energy-failure-germany-turns-back-to-coal-and-natural-gas-as-millions-of-its-solar-panels-are-blanketed-in-snow-and-ice-tech-news-startup/?fbclid=IwAR3tv5aw7bkopBhs8pGby2XmNRJXtDdmcmqkSD2P ZXKhDAfqeKKRRN4-Rig)

I bet that's a huge problem where you are too huh??? [biggrin]

[Tombie]

I bet that's a huge problem where you are too huh??? [biggrin]

Dust on panels is more an issue here [emoji41]

And of course thermal de-rating.

[Tombie]

The Australian Government is surrounded by leaders taking climate action. Will it step up?
The Australian Government is surrounded by leaders taking climate action. Will it step up? - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-22/the-world-strides-global-warming-australian-government-behind/12904200)

Problem to deal with is perception as well.

Is it good to “jump on the bandwagon” or be proactively seeking the right outcome whatever that actually is.

Not saying this is right or wrong (the above) rather is it correct? Or is it popular?

[bob10]

A massive gas failure in Texas was blamed on wind power. The fact that this was taken up by all & sundry as a chance to denigrate renewable power shows how difficult it is for renewables to break thru the gas ceiling. It happened in South Australia as well. Too many shakers & movers are invested in fossil fuels. But it is not stopping the move to renewables.


(https://reneweconomy.com.au/massive-texas-gas-failure-during-climate-extremes-gets-blamed-on-wind-power/)
Massive Texas gas failure during climate extremes gets blamed on wind power

Ketan Joshi (https://reneweconomy.com.au/author/ketan-j/) 16 February 2021 3 (https://reneweconomy.com.au/massive-texas-gas-failure-during-climate-extremes-gets-blamed-on-wind-power/#disqus_thread)





https://reneweconomy.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/20210216001520878797-original-702x526.jpg

It’s only been a half year since blackouts (https://reneweconomy.com.au/california-grid-melts-in-record-heat-are-renewables-to-blame-37609/) spread across California during intense summer heat. Those blackouts were immediately blamed on renewable energy; of course it turned out later on that a string of failures in the state’s gas plants were to blame. In fact, it turned out (https://twitter.com/KetanJ0/status/1306857282039316487) later on that a major part of those blackouts was an instance of a misheard verbal instruction issued to a gas generator. Instead of turning up as instructed, they decreased their output. And it’s five years since South Australia’s 2016 blackout, in which precisely the same sequence of events occurred. A pattern is now clear.
Major blackout events, usually instigated by grid stress related to climate extremes, become opportunities to attack renewable energy. Media articles, political pronouncements, tweets, Facebook posts, everything – the entire media ecosystem assumes that renewable energy must have done it and runs hard with it. And of course, later, it comes out that fossil fuel failures played a significant or even majority role in the cluster of causes of the event – none of which is covered with the intensity of the original stories.


Massive Texas gas failure during climate extremes gets blamed on wind power | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/massive-texas-gas-failure-during-climate-extremes-gets-blamed-on-wind-power/)

[bob10]

Problem to deal with is perception as well.

Is it good to “jump on the bandwagon” or be proactively seeking the right outcome whatever that actually is.

Not saying this is right or wrong (the above) rather is it correct? Or is it popular?

Now the UK has joined the EU, and the US in carbon levies. It seems that renewables are popular , and are deemed correct as well. Reading about the German problem with snow & ice, perhaps a nuclear fusion/ renewable energy mix might be worth striving for.



No point complaining about it, Australia will face carbon levies unless it changes course | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/no-point-complaining-about-it-australia-will-face-carbon-levies-unless-it-changes-course/)

[Tombie]

Popular and right aren’t necessarily aligned.
Having seen how environmental emissions are calculated I have little faith in the numbers we see.

And I’m yet to be fully convinced that the lithium and graphite extraction processes aren’t just the next problem to deal with in a few decades.

Historically:
Horseless carriage - a good thing and now quite popular
Steam trains (Coal fired) - a good thing and very popular
Jets - a good thing and popular
Hydrogen Zeppelins- were a good thing and popular
Cocaine medicine - very popular
Cocaine soft drink - very popular

Human race - just keeps on jumping from one bandwagon to the next.

[bob10]

Well, I'm thinking the powers to be at BHP are on the money.

BHP insists it is taking the energy transition seriously, planning to abandon thermal coal altogether as it turns to what it calls “future facing commodities” like iron ore, copper and nickel. It says these commodities have bright futures in a low carbon world as they play a central role in the manufacture of solar panels, wind turbines, and batteries.
“In a Paris-aligned, 1.5 degree scenario, we expect that investment in such things as copper-intensive solar generation, nickel-intensive batteries, and steel-intensive wind turbines will contribute to a more than doubling of the amount of primary copper and a quadrupling of the amount of primary nickel demand over the next 30 years, as was produced over the last 30,” CEO Mike Henry said on Tuesday.
The company has by and large managed to convince investors it is serious about becoming a net zero company (it has set 2050 as the deadline), even though it continues to produce coking coal, oil and gas, and has no intention to pull back production of those.

BHP says long goodbye to thermal coal, looks to solar, wind and battery metals | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/bhp-says-long-goodbye-to-thermal-coal-looks-to-solar-wind-and-battery-metals/)

[Tombie]

Oh that’s gold…. [emoji41]

[bob10]

Popular and right aren’t necessarily aligned.
Having seen how environmental emissions are calculated I have little faith in the numbers we see.

And I’m yet to be fully convinced that the lithium and graphite extraction processes aren’t just the next problem to deal with in a few decades.

Historically:
Horseless carriage - a good thing and now quite popular
Steam trains (Coal fired) - a good thing and very popular
Jets - a good thing and popular
Hydrogen Zeppelins- were a good thing and popular
Cocaine medicine - very popular
Cocaine soft drink - very popular

Human race - just keeps on jumping from one bandwagon to the next.

The fact is, we are on the cusp of another huge leap for mankind, it's happening now. We have to get the best minds involved with this, to ensure it's good, and right.

Wind surpassed coal as the primary power generation source last year for the Southwest Power Pool (SPP), an independent grid operator that provides electricity for a vast territory stretching from the Texas Panhandle to the Canadian border.
An analysis by the Institute for Energy Economics and Financial Analysis (IEEFA) found the growth has been driven by the near tripling of wind resources over a five-year period and improved wind turbine designs.
There are several reasons why this isn’t surprising. Wind should continue to be the No. 1 fuel source in future years.

Wind tops coal as number one generation source on major US grid | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/wind-tops-coal-as-number-one-generation-source-on-major-us-grid/)

[Homestar]

Won’t all the wind turbines bring the earths rotation to a halt??? [emoji6]

[Eevo]

Won’t all the wind turbines bring the earths rotation to a halt??? [emoji6]

no, they are aligned to spin the other way, so the earth rotates faster, hence why the days feel shorter.

[Tombie]

And there I was thinking they’d just installed fans to keep us cooler.

[biggin]

I thought they installed them to keep us poorer.

[NavyDiver]

Popular and right aren’t necessarily aligned.
Having seen how environmental emissions are calculated I have little faith in the numbers we see.

And I’m yet to be fully convinced that the lithium and graphite extraction processes aren’t just the next problem to deal with in a few decades.

Historically:
Horseless carriage - a good thing and now quite popular
Steam trains (Coal fired) - a good thing and very popular
Jets - a good thing and popular
Hydrogen Zeppelins- were a good thing and popular
Cocaine medicine - very popular
Cocaine soft drink - very popular



Human race - just keeps on jumping from one bandwagon to the next.

Fully agree we flip flop and also toss grenades at things we do not like [thumbsupbig] The Texas freeze is horrible for them. People dying from it so not meaning to be offensive or light fires on the topic.

Gas and oil freeze/reduction there is impacting Mexico and others US states as well ''Texas’ Gas-Export Clampdown Shocks Marke (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-17/texas-bans-natural-gas-companies-from-taking-fuel-out-of-state)t"

D.O.E. in the US just put a USD$20million grant to study Nuclear/Hydrogen production. Using spare off peak Nuclear capacity or cheap wind/solar/hydro is really a no brainer I feel. While battery storage is fine and getting all the publicity. The Biggest battery is a few minutes worth and as Texas is proving a few minutes is not enough there or anywhere.

Have a great day all

[JDNSW]

The principal reasons for the power collapse in Texas is a combination of factors. Dependence on renewables is not one of them, despite what Governor Greg Abbott says. Renewables only represent a small fraction of the output lost (a couple of GW out of a demand of up to 75GW.

Major factors:-

1. Texas grid is not connected to the two main North American Grids. This is partly for historical reasons - with few large cities close to borders there was no reason to interconnect (several cities close to the border are not on the Texas grid, but connected to adjoining states and hence to the main grids). But it has also been pursued simply because Texas did not want Federal controls that could apply to interstate commerce.

2. It does not normally get this cold for this long in Texas, and the power stations are not designed for this sort of weather - they are designed for hot weather. 25% of nuclear power and about 10% of thermal power shut down because of cold effects including ice choked water inputs and control systems failing or going into limp mode because of the cold. And about the same proportion of wind turbines were shut down because of icing - no deicing "because it is not normally needed", but these only represent a tiny fraction of generating capacity lost.

3. Peak demand is in summer, so maintenance is in winter - a number of power stations were shut down and could not be easily restarted. Demand, if they could have met it, would have set a new record.

4. A shortage of natural gas - production seems to have dropped by about 50%. In part this was due to record demand, but also because some production facilities failed due to the cold (most gas comes from the ground with a bit of water mixed with it. This is separated at or close to the wellhead so that it does not potentially form methane hydrates that can block the pipes, but in this weather it seems some of the pipes became blocked before the separator. This gas shortage was exacerbated when some generators shut down as the spot price for gas went up by as much as 10,000%.

5. Most Texans have no concept of energy conservation - for example, for the first two days of the energy crisis, all the unoccupied buildings in downtown Houston were fully lit. It is not clear whether the owners eventually got the message or the power companies just cut power to them after that.

6. Total lack of leadership for the state - the most prominent senator was filmed heading for Cancun with his family, and the Governor had nothing to offer. As early as Sunday the demand was expected to go to close to 75GW, but generating capacity was only expected to be about 55GW - and that was before plants started to shut down because of the cold. But it seems that nobody outside the power industry paid any attention.

I have been following this in detail because I have a brother living in Houston (he is sort of OK - power is back on, they are still alive, but water pressure is very low and there is a boil water directive, but unlike a lot, they have no burst pipes. They are short of food, and so are the supermarkets, but have enough to not starve. Roads are not yet safe due to ice.)

[bob10]

The principal reasons for the power collapse in Texas is a combination of factors. Dependence on renewables is not one of them, despite what Governor Greg Abbott says. Renewables only represent a small fraction of the output lost (a couple of GW out of a demand of up to 75GW.

Major factors:-

1. Texas grid is not connected to the two main North American Grids. This is partly for historical reasons - with few large cities close to borders there was no reason to interconnect (several cities close to the border are not on the Texas grid, but connected to adjoining states and hence to the main grids). But it has also been pursued simply because Texas did not want Federal controls that could apply to interstate commerce.

2. It does not normally get this cold for this long in Texas, and the power stations are not designed for this sort of weather - they are designed for hot weather. 25% of nuclear power and about 10% of thermal power shut down because of cold effects including ice choked water inputs and control systems failing or going into limp mode because of the cold. And about the same proportion of wind turbines were shut down because of icing - no deicing "because it is not normally needed", but these only represent a tiny fraction of generating capacity lost.

3. Peak demand is in summer, so maintenance is in winter - a number of power stations were shut down and could not be easily restarted. Demand, if they could have met it, would have set a new record.

4. A shortage of natural gas - production seems to have dropped by about 50%. In part this was due to record demand, but also because some production facilities failed due to the cold (most gas comes from the ground with a bit of water mixed with it. This is separated at or close to the wellhead so that it does not potentially form methane hydrates that can block the pipes, but in this weather it seems some of the pipes became blocked before the separator. This gas shortage was exacerbated when some generators shut down as the spot price for gas went up by as much as 10,000%.

5. Most Texans have no concept of energy conservation - for example, for the first two days of the energy crisis, all the unoccupied buildings in downtown Houston were fully lit. It is not clear whether the owners eventually got the message or the power companies just cut power to them after that.

6. Total lack of leadership for the state - the most prominent senator was filmed heading for Cancun with his family, and the Governor had nothing to offer. As early as Sunday the demand was expected to go to close to 75GW, but generating capacity was only expected to be about 55GW - and that was before plants started to shut down because of the cold. But it seems that nobody outside the power industry paid any attention.

I have been following this in detail because I have a brother living in Houston (he is sort of OK - power is back on, they are still alive, but water pressure is very low and there is a boil water directive, but unlike a lot, they have no burst pipes. They are short of food, and so are the supermarkets, but have enough to not starve. Roads are not yet safe due to ice.)

Renewablw energy misinformers are on the rise, especially now google and Sky have joined up. Another furphy was that Germany had no renewable energy because of winter.

"Despite a fact check warning on the post added by Facebook, it has been shared more than 8,000 times. As you can tell by now, it’s absolute garbage. Wind and solar have been producing power as expected in German winter, with solar lower than summer (turns out it’s darker in winter), and wind varying between peaks and troughs of output as it has done every winter prior. Nothing is “broken”, there aren’t 30,000 idle turbines, and of course fossil fuels are still present in Germany’s energy system.
Data provided by Ember Climate show Germany’s hourly generation up to the end of January, and it’s clear that there were no stretches of “idle turbines” or offline solar – generation was above zero for every day, for both technologies. Wind power contributed between 5% and 55%, across January."


Google's Sky News Australia team-up will make it a climate misinformation powerhouse | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/googles-sky-news-australia-team-up-will-make-it-a-climate-misinformation-powerhouse/)

[JDNSW]

The prize for misinformation must go to the Texas governor Greg Abbott. Apparently, shortly after telling the state that the primary cause of the grid collapse was the failure of 30% of the gas, coal and nuclear power due to the effects of low temperatures, he was on Fox News telling the audience that the failure was due to the wind turbines icing up.

[bob10]

The prize for misinformation must go to the Texas governor Greg Abbott. Apparently, shortly after telling the state that the primary cause of the grid collapse was the failure of 30% of the gas, coal and nuclear power due to the effects of low temperatures, he was on Fox News telling the audience that the failure was due to the wind turbines icing up.


How about Ted Cruz? Flies out to Mexico with his family, & left Texas to fend for itself.

[bob10]

The prize for misinformation must go to the Texas governor Greg Abbott. Apparently, shortly after telling the state that the primary cause of the grid collapse was the failure of 30% of the gas, coal and nuclear power due to the effects of low temperatures, he was on Fox News telling the audience that the failure was due to the wind turbines icing up.

Here's the news on Texas.

The underlying story of what happened in Texas appears to be fairly clear. Like many states, Texas has a partly deregulated electricity market, but deregulation has gone further there than elsewhere. In particular, unlike other states, Texas chose (https://cpowerenergymanagement.com/why-doesnt-texas-have-a-capacity-market/) not to provide power companies with incentives to install reserve capacity to deal with possible emergencies. This made power cheaper in normal times, but left the system vulnerable when things went wrong.
Texas authorities also ignored warnings about the risks associated with extreme cold. After a 2011 cold snap left millions of Texans in the dark, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission urged (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-02-17/texas-was-warned-a-decade-ago-its-grid-was-unprepared-for-cold'sref=qzusa8bC) the state to winterize its power plants with insulation, heat pipes and other measures. But Texas, which has deliberately cut its power grid (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/02/17/texas-power-grid-why-state-has-its-own-operated-ercot/6782380002/) off from the rest of the country precisely to exempt itself from federal regulation, only partially implemented the recommendations.
And the deep freeze came.
A power grid poorly prepared to deal with extreme cold suffered multiple points of failure. The biggest problems appear to have come in the delivery of natural gas (https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16/natural-gas-power-storm/), which normally supplies most of the state’s winter electricity, as wellheads and pipelines froze. Nor was this merely a matter of the lights going out; people are freezing too, because many Texas homes have electric heat. Many of the homes without electrical heat rely on, yes, natural gas. We’re looking at enormous suffering and, probably, a significant death toll.


Opinion | Texas, Land of Wind and Lies - The New York Times (nytimes.com) (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/18/opinion/texas-storm-power.html?campaign_id=39&emc=edit_ty_20210219&instance_id=27281&nl=opinion-today&regi_id=84534669&segment_id=51960&te=1&user_id=38b653f59d8a788d2b8029d349fb05f1)

[JDNSW]

It seems that there was also a failure of about 50% of natural gas production as production facilities shut down because of the cold. Almost all natural gas wells produce some water along with the gas, and the water is separated from the gas in a separator close to the well, since the water is likely to either freeze or form methane hydrates that have a similar effect (they are solid and stick to valves, bends etc).

In normal Texas weather there is no need to worry about the short section of pipe from the well to the separator ........

Add this to record demand for gas - many homes are electrically heated and the majority of power in Texas comes from gas, and the ones that are not electric heating use gas. So gas demand soared as supplies dropped. And the spot price of gas rose by 10,000%, so some generators shut down rather than produce power that would cost more for fuel than the capped price they could sell it for.

[Old Farang]

Australians with rooftop solar panels could soon be charged for exporting power into the grid, under proposed changes
Australians with rooftop solar panels could soon be charged for exporting power into the grid, under proposed changes - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336)

Australians with rooftop solar panels could soon be charged for exporting electricity to the grid, under new rules being recommended by the Australian Energy Market Commission (AEMC).

AEMC chief executive Ben Barr said the electricity grid was struggling to cope with the changing power landscape, which was generating more solar energy than ever before.

[PhilipA]

It seems that there was also a failure of about 50% of natural gas production as production facilities shut down because of the cold.
I cannot let this one go without calling BS.
There is a very thorough examination of the true situation in this analysis from WUWT using unarguable statistic from US regulators.

Texas “Wind was operating almost as well as expected” – Part Deux – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/03/01/texas-wind-was-operating-almost-as-well-as-expected-part-deux/)

The bottom line is that wind failed first and went from 25% of electricity production to about 1%.
Regards PhilipA

.

[Homestar]

I cannot let this one go without calling BS.
There is a very thorough examination of the true situation in this analysis from WUWT using unarguable statistic from US regulators.

Texas “Wind was operating almost as well as expected” – Part Deux – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/03/01/texas-wind-was-operating-almost-as-well-as-expected-part-deux/)

The bottom line is that wind failed first and went from 25% of electricity production to about 1%.
Regards PhilipA

.

I found this quite interesting. Grady is pretty thorough I’ve found and gives a good overview. He’s a Texan as well so has some of his own experiences in the vid. I’m sure there’s more to the whole situation though.


What Really Happened During the Texas Power Grid Outage? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/08mwXICY4JM)

[Homestar]

Australians with rooftop solar panels could soon be charged for exporting power into the grid, under proposed changes
Australians with rooftop solar panels could soon be charged for exporting power into the grid, under proposed changes - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-25/australians-with-rooftop-solar-charged-export-electricity-grid/100026336)

Australians with rooftop solar panels could soon be charged for exporting electricity to the grid, under new rules being recommended by the Australian Energy Market Commission (AEMC).

AEMC chief executive Ben Barr said the electricity grid was struggling to cope with the changing power landscape, which was generating more solar energy than ever before.




Well that’s one way of trying to ease the issues on the grid... Not sure it will go down too well.

[Tins]

Not sure it will go down too well.

Who cares? The system has been penalising those who couldn't afford to jump in for years. Time for a level playing field.

Not that I think this will give us that.

[Eevo]

I cannot let this one go without calling BS.
There is a very thorough examination of the true situation in this analysis from WUWT using unarguable statistic from US regulators.

Texas “Wind was operating almost as well as expected” – Part Deux – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/03/01/texas-wind-was-operating-almost-as-well-as-expected-part-deux/)

The bottom line is that wind failed first and went from 25% of electricity production to about 1%.
Regards PhilipA

.

SA wind and solar operates at 1% capacity quite often.

[Eevo]

Who cares? The system has been penalising those who couldn't afford to jump in for years. Time for a level playing field.

Not that I think this will give us that.


someone how to pay for the modifications to the grid. who should pay for it?

[Tins]

someone how to pay for the modifications to the grid. who should pay for it?

Well, the poorer folk that are being exploited, obviously. Or do you have a better solution?

[Eevo]

Well, the poorer folk that are being exploited, obviously. Or do you have a better solution?

if they want to have their solar connected to the grid, then they should have to pay for the grid to be reconfigured to accommodate them.

who else would you get to pay for it?
power stations? they dont want it
distribution? they dont want it
transmission? they dont want it
govt? they dont own it

we live in a user pays system.

[Tins]

if they want to have their solar connected to the grid, then they should have to pay for the grid to be reconfigured to accommodate them.

I'll assume the ? on the end of that. You have taken this to Solar. Sure, maybe that's where Gav was going... I was going "what about the poor folk?". Perhaps you have met some, although up there in Bridgewater maybe you are above all that.

My point is this: there have been many, many subsidies: Get Solar this, Get solar that: and, maybe, you, Eevo, could cash in. You live up there, you drive the fire truck... Lovely. Have fun. Nice life. You deserve it, you've worked....

What about those who's life haven't worked out that way? Would you write them off, simply because you got luckier than them? Where are their subsidies?




we live in a user pays system.

NO, we do NOT! We live in a have/have not system. I remember user pays. It existed maybe 25 years ago. It is NOT what we have now.

[Eevo]

before i reply, just want to make sure you understand i dont get paid to drive the firetruck. thats all volunteer.

[Homestar]

So what other solution then? Solar is over saturated in many areas now so systems from small home jobs to multi MW systems are not supplying what was intended when they were designed and built.

Sticking storage in on every home would help - but the cost needs to come from somewhere and no one wants to pay for it.

Limiting solar output into the grid is sorta done naturally now by the inverters which won’t bring the voltage up higher than a certain point.

Not sure what the answer is, but I know how much it is causing issues for the grid - I work with that side of things a lot and the supply authorities are basically just treading water and doing what they can.

[Tins]

before i reply, just want to make sure you understand i dont get paid to drive the firetruck. thats all volunteer.

Oh, for ****s sake Eevo... I'm involved, loosely, with the CFA here, I know what you do, and I admire you for it. Apparently your memory is shorter than mine.

[Tins]

So what other solution then?

It's not hard, Gav. FFs, let the market figure it out. It's always worked.

[Eevo]

Oh, for ****s sake Eevo... I'm involved, loosely, with the CFA here, I know what you do, and I admire you for it. Apparently your memory is shorter than mine.
yes i do have a short memory
thats ok. your post made it sound like i got paid for it.
yes i do have a short memory

[Eevo]

NO, we do NOT! We live in a have/have not system. I remember user pays. It existed maybe 25 years ago. It is NOT what we have now.

that is a user pays system. dont pay/cant afford, have not.

[Tins]

that is a user pays system. dont pay/cant afford, have not.

Think Stalin would approve.

[Eevo]

Think Stalin would approve.
it is what it is.

btw, russia became a better place under stalin in most metrics.

[NavyDiver]

So what other solution then? Solar is over saturated in many areas now so systems from small home jobs to multi MW systems are not supplying what was intended when they were designed and built.

Sticking storage in on every home would help - but the cost needs to come from somewhere and no one wants to pay for it.

Limiting solar output into the grid is sorta done naturally now by the inverters which won’t bring the voltage up higher than a certain point.

Not sure what the answer is, but I know how much it is causing issues for the grid - I work with that side of things a lot and the supply authorities are basically just treading water and doing what they can.

"Detailed review of energy applications and use cases such as P2P energy trading" Bock chain is I think a solution. Large storage via Hydrogen is likley to be a short/medium term option. pumped hydro and batteries are minnows really despite the hype and billions in them. Storage of stranded/wasted resources via Hydrogen - and fuel cell power generation is on a downward cost spiral.

Some of the idea in AEMO proposals are fair in some respects. ""It'll only happen when there is congestion on the network, not at all times when you're exporting into the grid," he said."


"A survey of the German Energy Agency [18] (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032118307184#bib18) on the views of energy decision-makers shows that near 20% believe that blockchain technology is a game-changer for energy suppliers. The survey was based on the views of 70 executives working in the energy sector including utility companies, energy suppliers, network operators, generators and aggregators. More than half of survey participants plan or have already undertaken initiatives for blockchain innovation. Several energy utility companies have taken interest in exploring the potential benefits of distributed ledger technologies (DLT)," Link (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1364032118307184)

The AEMO proposal is at one level normal business. Try selling tonnes of Icream at the beach in winter is possibly a example. the Same business might be flat out in summer.

"Not a one-size-fits-all systemMr Barr said power companies could create different services that allowed people to avoid charges altogether if they exported power to the grid when it was needed.
"If customers can move around when they're using electricity, or when their power comes into the grid, they could see a benefit," he said.
People could be slugged a fee if they export when the grid was busy, but Mr Barr insisted that would not be the default position."

Why should I be paid for energy if no one needs it at that time is a reasonable question.

[NavyDiver]

cyptro version and Australian might be of interest

It allows " Energy trading Our platform's energy tracking and trading features can be used to give consumers choice over the energy they use and facilitate the trading of electricity peer to peer. Solar P2P energy trading can deal with excess solar in the grid without subsidy.

If you have solar panels on your rooftop you can use our platform to sell excess energy to your neighbor. When coupled with batteries and our VPP platform feature, surplus solar can be stored and sold at the peak to maximize profits.

Power Ledger's platform gives security and peace of mind, by recording all transactions on the blockchain.


"

Software - Power Ledger (https://www.powerledger.io/software/)

[Old Farang]

It is must be that I am either a bit thick, or that every thing that I have been taught, and learnt, in running generators for more years than I want to remember, is just all wrong, or I maybe I am just dreaming!

WHY are all the "experts" blaming the "grid"? It would not matter if somehow the "grid" suddenly had another million miles of cabling strung all over the country! About the only truth the following talking head speaks is "the grid is designed to carry electricity from the producer to your home".

The "grid" is NOT a frigging battery, or any other device able to "store" electricity! It is not like a water tank where you can just add another tank to increase the capacity. Neither does it just "overflow" when too much energy attempts to get put on to it.
Sorry, it is beyond this old geezer!
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...

Low-income families back proposed solar export fees in hope of reducing power bills
Low-income families back proposed solar export fees in hope of reducing power bills - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-03-26/low-income-families-welcome-solar-export-fee-proposal/100029636)

Low-income families have welcomed proposed changes that would see solar panel owners charged exporting fees in the hope of reducing the overall cost of electricity.

[Homestar]

The real experts aren’t blaming the grid, they’re just trying to figure out how to make it cope with so much solar and wind connected to it.

Keyboard ‘experts’ are blaming the grid. 99.99% of the population have no idea how it operates, what issues over supply of renewables causes and why, understands the physics or maths behind it, even knows what a rotating magnetic field or magnetic rotor lock is when paralleling or have a clue how to fix any of its issues.

That won’t stop them from offering their opinions though. It’s just the way it is and one reason I’ve stopped posting in certain threads and areas as I’m sick of being told I’m wrong when I’ve been doing this for a living for decades.

I just take a deep breath and move on.

[Tombie]

Well, the poorer folk that are being exploited, obviously. Or do you have a better solution?

How do you arrive at this?

[Old Farang]

The real experts aren’t blaming the grid, they’re just trying to figure out how to make it cope with so much solar and wind connected to it.

Keyboard ‘experts’ are blaming the grid. 99.99% of the population have no idea how it operates, what issues over supply of renewables causes and why, understands the physics or maths behind it, even knows what a rotating magnetic field or magnetic rotor lock is when paralleling or have a clue how to fix any of its issues.

That won’t stop them from offering their opinions though. It’s just the way it is and one reason I’ve stopped posting in certain threads and areas as I’m sick of being told I’m wrong when I’ve been doing this for a living for decades.

I just take a deep breath and move on.

Well, I don't know just how an "expert" is defined:


Another option is to upgrade our electricity grid infrastructure, Dr Verbic said."If you replace the existing wires with thicker ones, the over-voltage is no longer an issue," he said." But reverse power can still be a problem. This can be dealt with by replacing protection systems in the transformers."

Should solar owners pay to supply the grid, or are there other options? Here's what you need to know - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-03-30/solar-power-electricity-should-owners-pay-to-supply-grid/100035198)


Should solar owners pay to supply the grid, or are there other options? Here's what you need to know

[Old Farang]

Solar splurge hits record highs in WA as COVID-19, downturn fails to quell demand

Solar splurge hits record highs in WA as COVID-19, downturn fails to quell demand - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-28/solar-splurge-reaches-new-heights-in-the-west/100095832)

WA households installed a record amount of solar power in 2020, further fuelling the rise of green energy in the country's sunniest state despite the economic downturn.

The splurge helped drive demand for electricity from the state's main grid to a new low as the ever-increasing amount of solar energy displaced coal and gas-fired plants and wind farms.

Figures from the West Australian government show about 300 megawatts of solar capacity was added to household rooftops last year.

The amount installed was the highest on record and almost amounted to the capacity of WA's single biggest coal-fired power plant, the 340MW Collie generator.

There are now 1.3 gigawatts' worth of small-scale solar systems in place across WA's biggest power grid, generating the equivalent of about one third of peak demand.

[DiscoMick]

The batteries that could make fossil fuels obsolete - BBC Future (https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20201217-renewable-power-the-worlds-largest-battery)

Big battery storage plus solar is taking off.

[Homestar]

Ok, can someone riddle me this? If (like most articles claim) that battery prices have fallen 70 odd percent on the last 5 years or so, why does a household battery system cost more now than it did 5 years ago...?

[Tombie]

Got to love it!
How many cycles before replacement [emoji41]
2000 ish should see a full rebuild in 5 years.
Watch all the mines kicking off for Graphene and Lithium processing facilities…

This is brilliant to watch unfold.

[Homestar]

I think over the next 20 years we’ll just have to get use to our power prices going up 10 fold to deal with this. If the country and or world pin all our hopes on battery tech we’ll forever be stuck in a loop of expensive replacements. And how sustainable or green is it to make all these batteries anyway - and as we need to increase manufacturing capacity about 1000 fold to meet demand if we switch off all fossil fuelled power - where is all the raw material coming from - and electricity to run all of this, and at what cost are we all prepared for $2.00 per KWH? $5.00 per KWH? Their the current predictions for 20 years time - I certainly can’t afford that.

[DiscoMick]

I've seen battery warranties of 10 years being offered pretty widely.
Australia is a leading supplier of lithium and lithium batteries will increasingly be produced here.
Switching to battery backups should cause power prices to fall, not increase, because the local solar will be stored locally, probably in community batteries in local sub-stations, not transmitted over long distances with major transmission losses.

[3toes]

The battery end of life question is one that is often ignored. Tesla has done a clever side step on this one by selling their used batteries to use in a home system. They are now no longer the owner and so not responsible for the recycling of the battery and associated costs

[Tombie]

I've seen battery warranties of 10 years being offered pretty widely.
Australia is a leading supplier of lithium and lithium batteries will increasingly be produced here.
Switching to battery backups should cause power prices to fall, not increase, because the local solar will be stored locally, probably in community batteries in local sub-stations, not transmitted over long distances with major transmission losses.

Less punters = increased cost.
The infrastructure still needs to be maintained.
More local nodes = more cost

[Homestar]

I've seen battery warranties of 10 years being offered pretty widely.
Australia is a leading supplier of lithium and lithium batteries will increasingly be produced here.
Switching to battery backups should cause power prices to fall, not increase, because the local solar will be stored locally, probably in community batteries in local sub-stations, not transmitted over long distances with major transmission losses.

Needs to be 30 years then we'll be getting somewhere - would you want to replace a $25K system every 10 years in your house? I sure wouldn't bu these are the sort of things that will see our overall power costs skyrocket in coming years.

[DiscoMick]

Community batteries would not be in individual houses, they would be in local sub-stations, with costs shared. Excess solar generated during the day would keep the batteries charged and they would discharge back into the local networks at night to meet demand.

Decentralised storage would make the grid more resilient and better able to cope with unexpected events, such as the fire and shutdown of the Callide generators yesterday. Callide is nearly worn-out and scheduled to be decommissioned in 2028, so other generation sources have to be created to replace it.

Rather than relying on a small number of centralised generators, the trend is to decentralise generation and storage and move the electricity to where it is needed through interconnected networks.

[Homestar]

Community batteries would not be in individual houses, they would be in local sub-stations, with costs shared. Excess solar generated during the day would keep the batteries charged and they would discharge back into the local networks at night to meet demand.

Decentralised storage would make the grid more resilient and better able to cope with unexpected events, such as the fire and shutdown of the Callide generators yesterday. Callide is nearly worn-out and scheduled to be decommissioned in 2028, so other generation sources have to be created to replace it.

Rather than relying on a small number of centralised generators, the trend is to decentralise generation and storage and move the electricity to where it is needed through interconnected networks.

That would cost a friggin fortune to operate and make for VERY expensive power - the smaller a set up is the higher the cost per kWh - just one of the reasons centralised systems give us relatively cheap power. I wouldn’t want one near me if it meant I had to sign up to it.

[Tombie]

This utopia that DM espouses is so expensive, so unachievable in an established area I’d be moving if they even suggested it.

A community battery just to run the houses on my block would be an entire 1/4 acre at least. That’s 1 battery array every block here. And then you still need the fallback grid to top it up if something goes wrong.

I have a good friend who is entirely off grid. His set up is enormous and still cannot keep up in hot weather. The gen set is always fuelled ready to go!

[DiscoMick]

Ausgrid predicts consumers will save up to $250 a year and is running community battery trials right now.

Community Battery Trial Participant FAQs - Ausgrid (https://www.ausgrid.com.au/In-your-community/Community-Batteries/Community-battery-FAQ)

[Tombie]

Ausgrid predicts consumers will save up to $250 a year and is running community battery trials right now.

Community Battery Trial Participant FAQs - Ausgrid (https://www.ausgrid.com.au/In-your-community/Community-Batteries/Community-battery-FAQ)

Up to 10kwh. Not real useful [emoji41]

Notice it’s still
A) a trial
B) grid connected

And, providers have been saying there will be big savings coming for over 5 years. Guess what, not happened [emoji12]

[Old Farang]

Up to 10kwh. Not real useful [emoji41]

Notice it’s still
A) a trial
B) grid connected

And, providers have been saying there will be big savings coming for over 5 years. Guess what, not happened [emoji12]

Ah, it is not all pie in the sky. My mate has just sold his wheatbelt farm where these systems are being used. The consumption cost to the consumer is the same per unit as the grid supply. ALL the farms in the area now have their own stand alone supply. Western Power install it and maintain it, including fuel for the backup generator. In fact, the customer is not permitted to touch it.

Where he has retired to on a 100 acre block he his going to install a similar system at a much lower cost than Western Power are quoting. The ironic part being that there is a bloody great 66Kv HT powerline passing through his block! There is also single phase powerlines right outside his gate.



Stand-Alone Power System Round 1 | Energy Solutions – Western Power (https://www.westernpower.com.au/our-energy-evolution/projects-and-trials/stand-alone-power-systems-round-1/)

untitled (westernpower.com.au) (https://www.westernpower.com.au/media/3177/stand-alone-power-systems-round1-brochure-20190222.pdf)

Off-Grid Power Systems | Solar Battery Storage Systems - Western Power (https://www.westernpower.com.au/our-energy-evolution/grid-technology/stand-alone-power-system/)

Stand-alone Power System | 3 Year Results | Ravensthorpe | Great Southern | Western Power (https://www.westernpower.com.au/community/news-opinion/3-in-a-row-great-southern-trial-proves-sps-great-for-country-wa/)

[PhilipA]

This is a sensible solution to the far flung grid problem as the main motivation is to save money on maintenance of the far flung grid.
A couple of questions come to my mind.

1 Why does it take days to fix an outage? Could it be that Western Power has reduced maintenance staff to reduce costs?
2 Who refills the generators after an outage?
3 Is this because of under investment over many years?

Nothing is new. The NSW government did this in White Cliffs about 30 or 40 years ago with a concentrated solar array , backed by batteries.
In contrast the Qld Government ran modern high voltage lines waaaay out even along the Adavale stock route.
I spoke to a resident of White Cliffs about 15 years ago who said" the best day of our lives was when they connected us to the grid."
The array is still there looking forlorn as a monument to failure.
Let us hope that technology has progressed to the point that this time it works!

Regards PhilipA

[W&KO]

This is a sensible solution to the far flung grid problem as the main motivation is to save money on maintenance of the far flung grid.
A couple of questions come to my mind.

1 Why does it take days to fix an outage? Could it be that Western Power has reduced maintenance staff to reduce costs?
2 Who refills the generators after an outage?
3 Is this because of under investment over many years?

Nothing is new. The NSW government did this in White Cliffs about 30 or 40 years ago with a concentrated solar array , backed by batteries.
In contrast the Qld Government ran modern high voltage lines waaaay out even along the Adavale stock route.
I spoke to a resident of White Cliffs about 15 years ago who said" the best day of our lives was when they connected us to the grid."
The array is still there looking forlorn as a monument to failure.
Let us hope that technology has progressed to the point that this time it works!

Regards PhilipA

There is a constant push to reduce the price of power......doing more with less doesn’t always work and eventually something has to give.

[DiscoMick]

Yep, decentralising the grid makes it less vulnerable to being disrupted by the failure of a single power source, as happened at Callide this week.

Interesting that Callide was replaced by a combination of several sources: wind was blowing, pumped hydro at Wivenhoe dam, solar and a backup gas station.

Qld government says it is going to accelerate a second pumped hydro station plus it is going ahead with five big batteries which are already in trials. Batteries provide instant power on demand. Callide will also be repaired.

Community batteries will spread the cost across consumers and so be much more affordable than installing batteries at individual properties.

The story is on the ABC News website today, but I'm not posting the link because I'm sick of being accused of being political merely for linking to information some people don't like.

Decentralising the grid with multiple power sources is good sense, I think.

[Homestar]

Ausgrid predicts consumers will save up to $250 a year and is running community battery trials right now.

Community Battery Trial Participant FAQs - Ausgrid (https://www.ausgrid.com.au/In-your-community/Community-Batteries/Community-battery-FAQ)

They are in dreamland.

[Tombie]

The grid has always (at least for a long time) been decentralised.

It’s only as CFPS closed that it centralised!

That’s what interconnectors do!

Spreading an additional cost amongst the population doesn’t make it cheaper - it still increases individual cost.

Like Water, everyone with a mains running near their property pays - even if they don’t use it.

[Homestar]

Yep, decentralising the grid makes it less vulnerable to being disrupted by the failure of a single power source, as happened at Callide this week.

Interesting that Callide was replaced by a combination of several sources: wind was blowing, pumped hydro at Wivenhoe dam, solar and a backup gas station.

Qld government says it is going to accelerate a second pumped hydro station plus it is going ahead with five big batteries which are already in trials. Batteries provide instant power on demand. Callide will also be repaired.

Community batteries will spread the cost across consumers and so be much more affordable than installing batteries at individual properties.

The story is on the ABC News website today, but I'm not posting the link because I'm sick of being accused of being political merely for linking to information some people don't like.

Decentralising the grid with multiple power sources is good sense, I think.

You haven’t mentioned anywhere who’s paying for this? While I agree with the idea and ideals trying to be moved forward there’s just no way anyone can afford it - the huge fall in battery tech the media seem to report on doesn’t stick up when you price anything - either in small or large scale. Solar panels being the exception which are dirt cheap now but batteries haven’t moved at all in price - one of my best customers does large solar and battery installations (think 20MW and up) and they’ve not seen a fall in battery prices like is being reported and they buy them 20 container loads at a time - if they can’t get cheaper batteries then no one can.

[NavyDiver]

You haven’t mentioned anywhere who’s paying for this? While I agree with the idea and ideals trying to be moved forward there’s just no way anyone can afford it - the huge fall in battery tech the media seem to report on doesn’t stick up when you price anything - either in small or large scale. Solar panels being the exception which are dirt cheap now but batteries haven’t moved at all in price - one of my best customers does large solar and battery installations (think 20MW and up) and they’ve not seen a fall in battery prices like is being reported and they buy them 20 container loads at a time - if they can’t get cheaper batteries then no one can.

Solar prices have at retail gone down or for the same prices we get significantly more. At the big end of the scale "Wind and solar power are the cheapest form of new electricity in most of the world today.That’s the analysis of BloombergNEF"

Storage is still a barrier as you point out. Storage Scale and cost is still now where near what is needed. Loads of wannabee or look at me and give me millions are jumping up and down on that topic of course. Happy to have my money where my mouth is on the lightest element being a likely option. hundreds of billions of $$$ being invested in that sector world wide.

Navy might be now in the mix for German Type 214 submarines with AIP. AIP is hydrogen fuel cells which provides power and by product of oxygen and water. Both by products are needed while submerged making that a win win for a silent and effective sub. Add no switch gear which is/was a major noise source from otherwise very quiet sub is a big plus as well. I had wondered if the French subs might arrive in 2030 with hydrogen given its massive advantages for subs.
It just might be a 'Put up or shut up' to the the French :) Australia considers German submarine option as tensions with French company grow - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-27/australia-considering-german-submarine-option/100168878)



Like the Solid state batteries, pumped hydro, Zinc Bromide, Molten salt ........... scale and proof is needed. I personally think the current lithium battery tech is a expensive waste/distraction and only a small scale option even at its biggest sites.

[PhilipA]

I read just yesterday that Tesla has increased the pricing of their solar roofs by AFAIR 60% and there is a class action being developed in California by people who had signed contracts and now find the price has increased enormously.
So much for getting cheaper.
It looks as though either Tesla is doing a "bait and switch" or they (he?) had no idea of the real cost of production.

Regards PhilipA

[350RRC]

The grid has always (at least for a long time) been decentralised.

It’s only as CFPS closed that it centralised!

That’s what interconnectors do!

Spreading an additional cost amongst the population doesn’t make it cheaper - it still increases individual cost.

Like Water, everyone with a mains running near their property pays - even if they don’t use it.

There's a water main along side the longest boundary chez moi. I assume I'm not paying anything coz I'm not connected to it and it doesn't go past my letterbox.

Maybe mains power is the same.

DL

[DiscoMick]

Batteries are going in.
"Virtual machine": Hornsdale battery steps in to protect grid after Callide explosion | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/virtual-machine-hornsdale-battery-steps-in-to-protect-grid-after-callide-explosion/amp/?__twitter_impression=true)

[Homestar]

I read just yesterday that Tesla has increased the pricing of their solar roofs by AFAIR 60% and there is a class action being developed in California by people who had signed contracts and now find the price has increased enormously.
So much for getting cheaper.
It looks as though either Tesla is doing a "bait and switch" or they (he?) had no idea of the real cost of production.

Regards PhilipA

That confirms my post a few days back and the crickets chirping in response when I asked why prices were still going up when the batteries and solar are supposed to be 70% cheaper now than 5 years ago...

[Old Farang]

Here is a battery for when you win the Lotto:

Yackandandah's community battery may not be 'big' but it's enough to 'petrify' energy providersYackandandah's community battery may not be 'big' but it's enough to 'petrify' energy providers - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-24/community-battery-yackandandah-ausgrid-electricity-shakeup/100159460)


A tiny country town has just received a 274-kilowatt-hour battery with help from government grants.


"It's taken a lot of time, a lot of organisation, a lot of planning. It had to be shipped here from China and it cost a lot of money at about $200,000."

[Old Farang]

Ah, it is not all pie in the sky. My mate has just sold his wheatbelt farm where these systems are being used. The consumption cost to the consumer is the same per unit as the grid supply. ALL the farms in the area now have their own stand alone supply. Western Power install it and maintain it, including fuel for the backup generator. In fact, the customer is not permitted to touch it.

Where he has retired to on a 100 acre block he his going to install a similar system at a much lower cost than Western Power are quoting. The ironic part being that there is a bloody great 66Kv HT powerline passing through his block! There is also single phase powerlines right outside his gate.



Stand-Alone Power System Round 1 | Energy Solutions – Western Power (https://www.westernpower.com.au/our-energy-evolution/projects-and-trials/stand-alone-power-systems-round-1/)

untitled (westernpower.com.au) (https://www.westernpower.com.au/media/3177/stand-alone-power-systems-round1-brochure-20190222.pdf)

Off-Grid Power Systems | Solar Battery Storage Systems - Western Power (https://www.westernpower.com.au/our-energy-evolution/grid-technology/stand-alone-power-system/)

Stand-alone Power System | 3 Year Results | Ravensthorpe | Great Southern | Western Power (https://www.westernpower.com.au/community/news-opinion/3-in-a-row-great-southern-trial-proves-sps-great-for-country-wa/)

Some more about this:

Solar plus storage better than grid connection for remote households | Sun-Connect-News (https://www.sun-connect-news.org/articles/business/details/solar-plus-storage-better-than-grid-connection-for-remote-households/)

[Homestar]

Here is a battery for when you win the Lotto:

Yackandandah's community battery may not be 'big' but it's enough to 'petrify' energy providersYackandandah's community battery may not be 'big' but it's enough to 'petrify' energy providers - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-24/community-battery-yackandandah-ausgrid-electricity-shakeup/100159460)


A tiny country town has just received a 274-kilowatt-hour battery with help from government grants.


"It's taken a lot of time, a lot of organisation, a lot of planning. It had to be shipped here from China and it cost a lot of money at about $200,000."




And in 10 years who’s going to pay to replace them?

[350RRC]

And in 10 years who’s going to pay to replace them?

I met some of the people up there driving this a few years ago.

I have no doubt when the time comes to replace the battery they'll have a decent yack about it.

cheers, DL

[Tombie]

There's a water main along side the longest boundary chez moi. I assume I'm not paying anything coz I'm not connected to it and it doesn't go past my letterbox.

Maybe mains power is the same.

DL

When I enquired I was informed because it goes across the property I’ll have to pay service (connection) charges even if I don’t use it as the connection is there.

Having said that, that’s how costs are shared, if people just disconnected the remaining would need to pick up the difference and prices for them would continue to spiral out of control.

[Old Farang]

And in 10 years who’s going to pay to replace them?

For me it is more a matter of knowing how long the battery is going to last. The cost has to be amortised over a time period, which at this stage is unknown. Just as with aircraft components, such as a turbine engine that can cost $50,000 to replace, the replacement cost is added into the hourly rate, because the time life is a known factor. The big difference here of course is that neither the time or replacement cost is known today. So the Kw unit charge has to take that into account, and as it stands, probably a best guess!

[350RRC]

......... Just as with aircraft components, such as a turbine engine that can cost $50,000 to replace, ..............

That's 5k cheaper than someone was quoted to have a D4 / 5? donk replaced that only had 121k kms on it. It's in the 319 forum.

DL

[350RRC]

When I enquired I was informed because it goes across the property I’ll have to pay service (connection) charges even if I don’t use it as the connection is there.

Having said that, that’s how costs are shared, if people just disconnected the remaining would need to pick up the difference and prices for them would continue to spiral out of control.

Here AFAIK it's something like $60 pa if it goes past (alongside) your place past the letterbox if you're not connected to it.

cheers, DL

[DiscoMick]

Interesting thing about the Callide coal plant failure is the 10% of Qld's lost power from the explosion has been quickly replaced from other sources. With plans accelerated for a second pumped hydro plant, 5 big batteries and $75m of upgraded transmission lines from a new solar farm in FNQ, it shows there are alternatives to coal plants as they wear out.

[PhilipA]

But coal is still the cheapest from an existing plant at about 4C per Kwh.

Again they misrepresent batteries as producing power. They don't.

If the battery had been flat when the explosion happened , there would have been no compensation.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

Interesting thing about the Callide coal plant failure is the 10% of Qld's lost power from the explosion has been quickly replaced from other sources. With plans accelerated for a second pumped hydro plant, 5 big batteries and $75m of upgraded transmission lines from a new solar farm in FNQ, it shows there are alternatives to coal plants as they wear out.

Wow, that's like saying 1 + 1 = 3. How on earth did you jump to that conclusion? 10% coverage = total coverage? "All wood burns states Sir Bedivere, therefore he concludes all that burns is wood" [biggrin]

[DiscoMick]

Its simple. The Callide plant where the turbine failed produced about 10% and tripped two other plants so the triple shut down totalled about 30%. The other two restarted, but the damaged plant remains shut. Other sources replaced it.

[DiscoMick]

Solar and wind are the cheapest because they have no fuel costs - sun and wind are free. Coal is only competitive when renewables are idle.
Batteries get discharged and recharged.

But coal is still the cheapest from an existing plant at about 4C per Kwh.

Again they misrepresent batteries as producing power. They don't.

If the battery had been flat when the explosion happened , there would have been no compensation.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

Its simple. The Callide plant where the turbine failed produced about 10% and tripped two other plants so the triple shut down totalled about 30%. The other two restarted, but the damaged plant remains shut. Other sources replaced it.

That conclusion that all can be replaced shows no knowledge of Electrical Engineering or grid infrastructure - I do this for a living which I've said many times - your conclusion is wrong - plain and simple. I'm not going to explain it, but just know it is. Simplistic extrapolations like "because it can replace 10% then it can replace 100%" don't work when physics gets involved. I have no issues with differing opinions, but this isn't that. Your assumptions are incorrect in this case and provable to be the case if I had the time.

I fail to understand why you continually seem to rebut others posts on this topic when you have no experience with it at all and disagree with me when I've been working in the industry for over 25 years full time - what would I know... I would happily sit down with you and explain the physics and of electricity and the Engineering challenges that face those that have to continually try and cope with how the grid is changing and come up with solutions to try and keep everyones lights on, but that's a conversation that isn't possible here unfortunately.

[PhilipA]

Solar and wind are the cheapest because they have no fuel costs - sun and wind are free. Coal is only competitive when renewables are idle.
Batteries get discharged and recharged.

You are ignoring the capital and depreciation costs of solar and wind. Wind replacement say 10 years , solar maybe 15-20.

If they are so cheap why the subsidies?

In reality they should always have been responsible for 24hour power delivery , not just when the wind blows or the sun shines.
Regards PhilipA

[Eevo]

Solar and wind are the cheapest because they have no fuel costs - sun and wind are free. Coal is only competitive when renewables are idle.
Batteries get discharged and recharged.

by that logic, coal is free too.

[350RRC]

You are ignoring the capital and depreciation costs of solar and wind. Wind replacement say 10 years , solar maybe 15-20.

If they are so cheap why the subsidies?

In reality they should always have been responsible for 24hour power delivery , not just when the wind blows or the sun shines.
Regards PhilipA

Yambuk wind farm is 16 years old and was operating at up to 101% of nameplate capacity this week.

DL

[Tombie]

Yambuk wind farm is 16 years old and was operating at up to 101% of nameplate capacity this week.

DL

In that time it’s had multiple upgrades and refurbishment.

[Homestar]

by that logic, coal is free too.

Yep, there's tonnes of it - just lying around doing nothing - didn't cost a cent to put there.

[Eevo]

Yep, there's tonnes of it - just lying around doing nothing - didn't cost a cent to put there.
exactly!

[DiscoMick]

You are ignoring the capital and depreciation costs of solar and wind. Wind replacement say 10 years , solar maybe 15-20.

If they are so cheap why the subsidies?

In reality they should always have been responsible for 24hour power delivery , not just when the wind blows or the sun shines.
Regards PhilipAHow about the capital and appreciation costs of coal plants? The Callide plant that failed had $60m spent on an upgrade last year - and it still failed. I read it had eight shutdowns for problems in a year.
All systems have capital costs.

[DiscoMick]

That conclusion that all can be replaced shows no knowledge of Electrical Engineering or grid infrastructure - I do this for a living which I've said many times - your conclusion is wrong - plain and simple. I'm not going to explain it, but just know it is. Simplistic extrapolations like "because it can replace 10% then it can replace 100%" don't work when physics gets involved. I have no issues with differing opinions, but this isn't that. Your assumptions are incorrect in this case and provable to be the case if I had the time.

I fail to understand why you continually seem to rebut others posts on this topic when you have no experience with it at all and disagree with me when I've been working in the industry for over 25 years full time - what would I know... I would happily sit down with you and explain the physics and of electricity and the Engineering challenges that face those that have to continually try and cope with how the grid is changing and come up with solutions to try and keep everyones lights on, but that's a conversation that isn't possible here unfortunately.When did I criticise you? I'm not having a technical argument, I'm just noting the lost 10% has been replaced from other sources, which is just fact.
Qld is already averaging about 40% renewable power over a year and that is rising.
The Qld government has just announced it is going ahead with a second pumped hydro station, 5 big batteries and a $75m transmission upgrade from a planned solar farm in FNQ.
Diversifying power sources to reduce reliance on any one source just seems common sense to me.

[PhilipA]

How about the capital and appreciation costs of coal plants? The Callide plant that failed had $60m spent on an upgrade last year - and it still failed. I read it had eight shutdowns for problems in a year.
All systems have capital costs.
You are changing your argument here.
You stated that wind and solar were the cheapest source of electricity.

That is not so as many many international studies have found.
To then say "well what about coal maintenance" is a different argument.
Even with the maintenance coal from existing power stations is still by far the cheapest.

Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

When did I criticise you? I'm not having a technical argument, I'm just noting the lost 10% has been replaced from other sources, which is just fact.
Qld is already averaging about 40% renewable power over a year and that is rising.
The Qld government has just announced it is going ahead with a second pumped hydro station, 5 big batteries and a $75m transmission upgrade from a planned solar farm in FNQ.
Diversifying power sources to reduce reliance on any one source just seems common sense to me.

You’ve changed your argument here - go look at what I was replying to.

[DiscoMick]

That's because I never actually said it would go from 10% to 100%, as you stated, so I was politely avoiding saying you had mis-stated what I said. Anyway, whatever.

Sent from my A1601 using AULRO mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78345)

[windsock]

I found this the other day while looking for something else. Some interesting numbers. [thumbsupbig] [bigwhistle]

Graham, P., Hayward, J., Foster J. and Havas, L. (2020). GenCost 2020-21: Consultation draft, CSIRO, Australia.

CSIRO Research Publications Repository (https://publications.csiro.au/publications/publication/PIcsiro:EP208181)

[DiscoMick]

I've never claimed to be an expert, but I am trying to learn more.
This interesting article explains what 'baseloard power' actually means.
Many people, including me, assumed baseloard power meant the minimum power demand in the electricity grid, but that's wrong.
Baseloard power actually means the minimum level a generator can operate at before it has to shut down, like the idle engine speed in a vehicle. It was originally used to describe the minimum operating level of nuclear plants, and later extended to coal.
So coal generators were designed to have a baseloard operating level to match the minimum electricity demand, usually around 2-4am.
The coal plants were intended to operate continuously, because it is slow and expensive to turn them off and on.
Gas is different as it can quickly be stopped and started, while batteries are almost instant and pumped hydro is quick. Gas can operate continuously.
Solar and wind operate continuously while sun and wind are available. Their outputs can be stored in batteries to dispatch when needed.
So the better term to use is 'dispatchable power', meaning it is available when needed.
I've also read other sources which say similar things.
Interesting.

Baseload: Exploring the myths behind Australia's baseload power demand. (https://www.energymatters.com.au/renewable-news/baseload-energy-generation-expose-myth/)

[Homestar]

That's because I never actually said it would go from 10% to 100%, as you stated, so I was politely avoiding saying you had mis-stated what I said. Anyway, whatever.

Sent from my A1601 using AULRO mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78345)

Copied straight from your post -
it shows there are alternatives to coal plants as they wear out. taking about how renewables replaced 10% of the power a coal plant was producing that fell over. If a coal plant has worn out (and hence shut down), then it would need 100% of that coal plants power replacing would it not??? [bigwhistle]

[ramblingboy42]

not even sure why you guys are arguing....

all the corporate arguments have all been done.

they know where they are spending their $$$.

and it's on renewables , in the many favoured schemes , now available for much cheaper power generation.

this was always going to be an inevitability , going back over 30yrs.....it just took better technology to bring it forward.

coal and gas and diesel can no longer compete profitably on the market , but they still have a very important role to play over the next 20-30yrs

I'm unsure how the likes of Adani and even our own Clive can envisage a future for coal , but it could be looking towards steel making.....there are still hundreds of developing nations need raw materials for their future.

[Homestar]

not even sure why you guys are arguing....

all the corporate arguments have all been done.

they know where they are spending their $$$.

and it's on renewables , in the many favoured schemes , now available for much cheaper power generation.

this was always going to be an inevitability , going back over 30yrs.....it just took better technology to bring it forward.

coal and gas and diesel can no longer compete profitably on the market , but they still have a very important role to play over the next 20-30yrs

I'm unsure how the likes of Adani and even our own Clive can envisage a future for coal , but it could be looking towards steel making.....there are still hundreds of developing nations need raw materials for their future.

I'm not saying I like coal or we shouldn't be putting more renewables in and phasing coal and eventually gas out, but there will come a time where things start to go wonky if this is all we're going to do. Other countries around the world (that are waaaaay ahead of us) are starting to see this. It will take another 10 to 15 years the way we are going to start seeing the same issues then trying to work out what to do about it - hopefully the rest of the world will have found a solution by then.

[NavyDiver]

I'm not saying I like coal or we shouldn't be putting more renewables in and phasing coal and eventually gas out, but there will come a time where things start to go wonky if this is all we're going to do. Other countries around the world (that are waaaaay ahead of us) are starting to see this. It will take another 10 to 15 years the way we are going to start seeing the same issues then trying to work out what to do about it - hopefully the rest of the world will have found a solution by then.

Some times it a lot easier not being first. That's why I am a slow runner[thumbsupbig] I would have a heart attack if I tried to keep up with the very fast movers.

See south oz kicked the ball off with hydrogen blend in gas lines. Only 5% but a start

"The Hyp SA project, run by Australian Gas Infrastructure Group (AGIG), plans to blend about 5% green hydrogen into its gas distribution network going to more than 700 homes in a suburb of Adelaide in South Australia, the state using the highest proportion of renewable energy for power." Link (https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/australia-starts-piping-hydrogen-gas-blend-into-homes-2021-05-19/) Its only a minnow at "1.25 megawat" of electrolysis to Hydrogen. I think that the poms are at 30% at some trail sites.

"Zero-carbon hydrogen has been injected into a UK gas network for the first time in a groundbreaking trial that could help to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.The 20% hydrogen and natural gas blend is being used to heat 100 homes and 30 faculty buildings at Keele University (https://www.theguardian.com/education/keeleuniversity) in Staffordshire. Unlike natural gas, when hydrogen is burned it produces heat and water as opposed to carbon dioxide"

My bad - they are 20%. Leaking pipes are not good for methane or hydrogen :)

[1984V8110]

Some times it a lot easier not being first. That's why I am a slow runner[thumbsupbig] I would have a heart attack if I tried to keep up with the very fast movers.

See south oz kicked the ball off with hydrogen blend in gas lines. Only 5% but a start

"The Hyp SA project, run by Australian Gas Infrastructure Group (AGIG), plans to blend about 5% green hydrogen into its gas distribution network going to more than 700 homes in a suburb of Adelaide in South Australia, the state using the highest proportion of renewable energy for power." Link (https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/australia-starts-piping-hydrogen-gas-blend-into-homes-2021-05-19/) Its only a minnow at "1.25 megawat" of electrolysis to Hydrogen. I think that the poms are at 30% at some trail sites.

"Zero-carbon hydrogen has been injected into a UK gas network for the first time in a groundbreaking trial that could help to reduce carbon dioxide emissions.The 20% hydrogen and natural gas blend is being used to heat 100 homes and 30 faculty buildings at Keele University (https://www.theguardian.com/education/keeleuniversity) in Staffordshire. Unlike natural gas, when hydrogen is burned it produces heat and water as opposed to carbon dioxide"

My bad - they are 20%. Leaking pipes are not good for methane or hydrogen :)

Thanks - interesting information.

It does seem odd to me that one would burn H2 rather than run it through a fuel cell and then use a heat pump if you want to heat. I'd expect that because of the high efficiency of a H2 fuel cell for converting chemical energy into electricity combined with a heat pump that is inherently highly effective at converting electricity to heat that you get much more (possibly by a factor of 2 or 3) heat per kg of H2 than burning it as seems to be the case in SA and the UK. For cooking, using a fuel cell to generate electricity and then an induction top rather than gas I'd expect that once again you get more cooking done per kg of H2.

The crunch issue is how fast the price of H2 production can drop. Most estimates of future H2 prices assume some sort of 'learning curve' to extrapolate historical price reductions into the future and hence are intrinsically prone to inaccuracy.I am concerned that the more enthusiastic proponents of the hydrogen economy make optimistic assumptions about H2 generation costs, and we need to make sure we don't put a lot of eggs in the H2 basket for the short to medium term. [And I say this as someone who has been a fan of H2 since I listened to a seminar by the remarkable John Bockris on the subject back in the 1980s!].

[NavyDiver]

Thanks - interesting information.

It does seem odd to me that one would burn H2 rather than run it through a fuel cell and then use a heat pump if you want to heat. I'd expect that because of the high efficiency of a H2 fuel cell for converting chemical energy into electricity combined with a heat pump that is inherently highly effective at converting electricity to heat that you get much more (possibly by a factor of 2 or 3) heat per kg of H2 than burning it as seems to be the case in SA and the UK. For cooking, using a fuel cell to generate electricity and then an induction top rather than gas I'd expect that once again you get more cooking done per kg of H2.

The crunch issue is how fast the price of H2 production can drop. Most estimates of future H2 prices assume some sort of 'learning curve' to extrapolate historical price reductions into the future and hence are intrinsically prone to inaccuracy.I am concerned that the more enthusiastic proponents of the hydrogen economy make optimistic assumptions about H2 generation costs, and we need to make sure we don't put a lot of eggs in the H2 basket for the short to medium term. [And I say this as someone who has been a fan of H2 since I listened to a seminar by the remarkable John Bockris on the subject back in the 1980s!].

I agree. The world is a odd place with efficiency at times. While the methane LNG ... are better than coal with the US gov site showing a very good science based example Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) (https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11)
Pounds of CO2 emitted per million British thermal units (Btu) of energy for various fuels

Coal (anthracite) 228.6
Coal (bituminous) 205.7
Coal (lignite) 215.4
Coal (subbituminous) 214.3
Diesel fuel and heating oil 161.3
Gasoline (without ethanol) 157.2
Propane 139.0
Natural gas 117.0
Required amount to fix the last 100+ years of us is 0[bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

SA is also doing good things with batteries.

Tesla battery scheme rolled out to homes without solar to build virtual power plant
ABC.net.au: Page Not Found (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-01/sa-tesla-virtual-power-plant-expanded-to-those-without-solar/100180704)

[Homestar]

SA is also doing good things with batteries.

Tesla battery scheme rolled out to homes without solar to build virtual power plant
ABC.net.au: Page Not Found (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-01/sa-tesla-virtual-power-plant-expanded-to-those-without-solar/100180704)

At $2000 a year I’m not sure I’d want to add that cost to my power bill....

[DiscoMick]

Story says the batteries are free to consumers whose power bills also fall by about 30% because of what they earn when the batteries discharge into the grid.

[PhilipA]

I have often wondered why the power providers and or the government do not allow consumers to charge batteries at night from say 11PM to 4AM then use the power during peak times.

This would flatten demand and help reduce peaks say on hot days at 5PM or any morning or afternoon for that matter.

At present in NSW anyway I can only power up my HWS during those times on Off Peak 1.

Its the same argument as with solar panels.
Regards PhilipA