Series 2a brake problems... Again

[jessec96]

Hey guys having the dreaded brake problems on my SWB IIA. Replaced brake system now the typical poor pedal, almost all the way to the floor symptoms.
I bought the shorty with no brakes. I have replaced the following with new high quality stuff, master cylinder (cb), all lines, front and rear slaves and shoes. Standard 10inch drums.
Now I have bled the system about 10 times with front end raised, adjusters both all the way out and all the way in. Also pressure bled from the rear aswell as pumping it through the old fashioned way (wife was not happy with hours of pumping a pedal).

Can’t seem to get a good pedal it gets hard about half an inch off floor and pulls up terrible. Brakes are adjusted almost to tight to get that pedal to get hard without touching the floor. PLEASE HELP! haha pulling my hair out.

Only odd thing I can think that might be messing with me is I have 1 1/2” slaves on front and 1” on the rear I don’t know if that makes a lot of difference, just an idea.

Thanks in advance

[JDNSW]

The slave cylinders should be the same front and rear. And I am pretty certain they are 1". 1.5" brake cylinders are more than twice the piston area, and so will need more than twice as much fluid moved.

So this would explain the situation you have. Probably work better if you used a lwb master cylinder, but I would be inclined to use the standard setup unless you know exactly what you are doing!

[jessec96]

The slave cylinders should be the same front and rear. And I am pretty certain they are 1". 1.5" brake cylinders are more than twice the piston area, and so will need more than twice as much fluid moved.

So this would explain the situation you have. Probably work better if you used a lwb master cylinder, but I would be inclined to use the standard setup unless you know exactly what you are doing!

Cheers JDNSW, I had a slight feeling in the back of my mind it would be down to the cylinders taking more fluid to displace. I had the set of 1 1/2” on the shelf and thought I’d take the gamble. Damn! I’ll have to get myself a set of 1” and see how I go.

[JDNSW]

Have a look at the bleeding setup suggested near the end of this thread:-

Rebuilding Sid (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-ii-and-iia/271762-rebuilding-sid-25.html)

[whitehillbilly64]

My 2a SWB has 1 1/2 inch front, 1 inch rear, so does my S3 SWB. Thought that was Std for SWB ?
What if you pump the peddle a few times, does it get harder.

whitehillbilly

[JDNSW]

According to the parts books Series 3 changed to a different front wheel cylinder in 1980, and at the same time went to the same master cylinder as the 109. I will bet this is when the change was to 1.5". It would not be surprising to find that a lot of the bleeding problems with Series Landrovers come from making this change and not changing to the different M/C. (I should mention that I have not owned an 88 since 1964!)

[whitehillbilly64]

My Mistake.
1 1/4 on fronts.
I also made up a fitting that screws into the Bleed nipple hole. Then uses a large syringe to back bleed.
If someone is watching the Reservoir, it saves you overfilling. Once the syringe is nearly empty, suck it back again. then pump back it.
with clear tube to the syringe, you can watch for air bubbles.
Another method that may work is pump the peddle a few times, then on the last depress, jamb it in that position with a bit of wood to the seat box, and leave it overnight.
Air bubbles maybe forced out.


whitehillbilly

[goingbush]

Sounds like you have not adjusted the snail cams before bleeding, adjust them all the way so that you cant turn the wheels, then back off one click so the shoes are just binding. Also fitting residual valves in the lines helps a lot and saves you having to constantly adjust the shoes to keep a good pedal.

[jessec96]

Pedal does come up only a whisker after a few hard pumps. Pedal holds.

Snail cams where adjusted all the way up and bled and also tried it with snail cams completely de-adjusted to no avail.

If I clamp off front lines the pedal feels good. So I’ve bled almost a litre through the front also pressure bled with pump bottle.


Are the front cylinders supposed to be 1” or 1 1/4”? And will dropping down Half or quarter inch make that much difference? My swb is a 1961 so an early SIIA so not sure what cylinders it is supposed to have

[JDNSW]

Not clear looking at the parts book, but I think front and rear should be the same. But it looks like they did fit some different ones, perhaps to try and improve the brakes. There would seem to be plenty of opportunity to use the wrong parts.

My Series 3 parts book shows same front and rear up to 1980 though.

[goingbush]

For the purposes of bleeding, if you have the shoes adjusted hard up against the drums , it does not matter what size slave cylinders you have , it should bleed & you should get a hard pedal, if it does not you have assembled the brakes incorrectly or have a faulty master cylinder .

I hear you when you say you adjusted the snail, m both ways, Are the wheels locking up when you adjust the snail cam , ( must be on a jack so you can turn the wheels to know this) if not theres your problem.

If you can't bleed the whole system in 20 minutes, one person , by pressing & holding the brake pedal with a stick against the seat box then there is something wrong. Should not take more than half a 500ml bottle .

[jessec96]

For the purposes of bleeding, if you have the shoes adjusted hard up against the drums , it does not matter what size slave cylinders you have , it should bleed & you should get a hard pedal, if it does not you have assembled the brakes incorrectly or have a faulty master cylinder .

I hear you when you say you adjusted the snail, m both ways, Are the wheels locking up when you adjust the snail cam , ( must be on a jack so you can turn the wheels to know this) if not theres your problem.

If you can't bleed the whole system in 20 minutes, one person , by pressing & holding the brake pedal with a stick against the seat box then there is something wrong. Should not take more than half a 500ml bottle .

All four corners are up on stands, snail cams adjusted until brakes bind on drums and wheels cannot be turned. Even had the drums off at one stage and used a ratchet strap to hold shoes together nice and tight to see if that made any difference while bleeding.

I’m pretty confident I have all the air out of the system tried every way possible bleeding through and pushing fluid back through aswell. Never had this problem before on any of my other vehicles after full brake system overhaul just strange.

[JDNSW]

I suspect that in some cases at least, people are getting it bled - in the sense that they have got all the air out, but are keeping at it in a vain attempt to 'fix by bleeding' what is actually a mechanical or hydraulic fault, not air in the hydraulics. And one cause of this could be the use of larger front wheel cylinders without the larger master cylinder.

[jessec96]

I suspect that in some cases at least, people are getting it bled - in the sense that they have got all the air out, but are keeping at it in a vain attempt to 'fix by bleeding' what is actually a mechanical or hydraulic fault, not air in the hydraulics. And one cause of this could be the use of larger front wheel cylinders without the larger master cylinder.

JDNSW I have just put through an order for 1 1/4” front cylinders as recomended by Steve at British auto parts Australia in Bayswater so will have to wait till they come through the post and see if it fixes the issue. Fingers crossed!

[goingbush]

Sounds like a dodgy master cylinder .

[JDNSW]

That is the other possibility of course. It would be nice to be able to say that this never happens with new parts, but unfortunately, that is not the case.

[jessec96]

Sounds like a dodgy master cylinder .

Is there anyway to narrow the problem down to the master cylinder? Or will it be a case of just replacing it

[goingbush]

Is there anyway to narrow the problem down to the master cylinder? Or will it be a case of just replacing it

its all it can be, as I said before if your shoes are adjusted up hard again the drums it does not make any difference what size the slave cylinders are because the pistons don't have any room for movement so no fluid is being displaced.

[gromit]

If I clamp off front lines the pedal feels good. So I’ve bled almost a litre through the front also pressure bled with pump bottle.



As already mentioned, sounds like it's not air in the system.
From the above comment the problem lies with the fronts.

Remove the front drums, rub chalk over the linings, re-fit the drums, adjust the shoes till they rub, rotate the drum several times, back off the adjusters and remove the drums.
Now have a look at the linings and see where they make contact, you may need to remove & file the linings then repeat the above till you get good contact between shoes & drum. I mentioned this in another thread and someone suggested holding emery cloth in the drum & rotating the shoe against the emery to get the radius correct.

Pattern parts, worn drums etc. mean that you may have the lining only touching in one spot. When you press the pedal the pressure forces the shoes out and they flex. This procedure also means you get the best contact area between shoes & drums and therefore the best braking force.

This technique came from my Father-in-Law (no longer with us) who was in the brake business for years (co owner of Neville Pearce Brakes, Hallam). I had the same problem with my Series I, the rears OK but fronts spongy, filed until I got about 70% contact area on the linings and problem solved. Also learnt some bleeding tricks that got the air out of the system whereas everything else had failed.

Fitting the correct cylinders to the fronts will reduce the pedal travel but worth doing the above anyway.


Colin

[charlie a]

I once had a 2A land rover. It had a forward sloping master cylinder and to bleed the brakes I had to jack up the front of the vehicle so as to have the master cylinder body on a level plane.
If this was not done it was impossible to remove the air from the back of the cylinder.

[Johnno1969]

My IIA 88 has 1 1/4" cylinders at the front and 1" at the back - and the later CV master cylinder. With stuff in good nick, it's not hard to bleed and adjust the brakes.

I may be about to be howled down by some purists, but I have a habit of bleeding the system while the pistons are restrained by G-clamps and the shoes not yet in place....Push a lot of fluid through them, then take off the clamps. Put on the shoes and adjust the snail cams and...the brakes work fine.

Maybe that's worth a try.

John

[1950landy]

We used to have to bleed Wolseley 24/80 brakes that way. . Let the adjusters fully back , use a pressure bleeder, remove one brake drum at a time & hold the shoes in with tyre leavers so pistons stayed at the bottom of cylinders with the bleeder open on that wheel & hose into bottle ,while some one slowly pumped the peddle. They were like LR brakes you could bleed them all day for no result . Doing then this way you got brakes first time. They also had Girling brakes. Ford Zephyr we would bleed the brakes then let them sit over night & they would have brakes the next morning

[JDNSW]

Interestingly, I have never had any issues bleeding brakes on a Landrover. Clutches, yes, but not brakes.

[gromit]

Interestingly, I have never had any issues bleeding brakes on a Landrover. Clutches, yes, but not brakes.

Similarly, no problem bleeding any of the fleet but did experience problems getting a firm pedal on the Series I as explained in post #19.
Once the shoes were filed to match the drums the problem was resolved.

In post #9 jessec96 mentions good pedal when fronts clamped off so rears are OK and either air still trapped in the front somewhere or similar problem to what I experienced.


Colin

[goingbush]

Interestingly, I have never had any issues bleeding brakes on a Landrover. Clutches, yes, but not brakes.

Ditto , even Series ones with Master Cylinder under the floor have never been a problem.

I expected problems with my '49 Dodge after retrofitting disc brakes and a Dual Circuit Celica master cylinder in place of the original under the floor. Two pumps and the pedal came up . T

[Johnno1969]

Interestingly, I have never had any issues bleeding brakes on a Landrover. Clutches, yes, but not brakes.

With everything in good condition (including paying attention to the drum/shoe sizing...), I have found much the same. I just do that little trick with the clamps as it gives good resistance with no chance of any pressure being "soaked up" elsewhere and drives the fluid firmly out through the bleed valve.

[jessec96]

Righteo, I put through an order the other day for the correct size front cylinders and a new master cylinder (found a tiny bit of fluid behind the boot so I thought I’d just replace).
Got to fitting them up last night, installed new master cylinder and bleed up with same issue. So installed correct wheel cylinders and sanded the front shoes to better contact the drums. Re adjusted all snail cams until wheels were hard to turn, re bled system.... I know have a pedal that is firm halfway down in travel, locks up front brakes while reversing in and out of shed and stomping on the pedal so 100% better then before I know have brakes!

Although to me the pedal still seems a little low at half travel, all brakes are adjusted up and all shoes have good contact patterns, pedal is firm and doesn’t feel spongey, how much travel should there be on a series 2 single circuit system? I might be being to picky with the old girl now!

[JDNSW]

With the caution that mine is a lwb not a swb, so in a sense we are comparing apples to oranges, mine has about an inch movement to solid pedal, so significantly less than you are reporting. Check that the free play before the master cylinder piston moves is correct, and that you don't have free play on either the pedal pivot or the trunnion on the pushrod.

[gromit]

Righteo, I put through an order the other day for the correct size front cylinders and a new master cylinder (found a tiny bit of fluid behind the boot so I thought I’d just replace).
Got to fitting them up last night, installed new master cylinder and bleed up with same issue. So installed correct wheel cylinders and sanded the front shoes to better contact the drums. Re adjusted all snail cams until wheels were hard to turn, re bled system.... I know have a pedal that is firm halfway down in travel, locks up front brakes while reversing in and out of shed and stomping on the pedal so 100% better then before I know have brakes!

Although to me the pedal still seems a little low at half travel, all brakes are adjusted up and all shoes have good contact patterns, pedal is firm and doesn’t feel spongey, how much travel should there be on a series 2 single circuit system? I might be being to picky with the old girl now!

Great to hear that at least you have a 'good pedal' now.
Doesn't a Series II shorty have adjusters on just one brake shoe on each wheel ? If so the travel could also be due to the shoes without adjusters moving away from the drums so every time you press the pedal those shoes have to move a bit before they are in contact with the drum.

The fact that the brake shoes don't float on the pivot pin like a LWB is why you end up having to file the lining to match the drum. I'm not familiar with the 80" Series I brakes but I remember my father-in-law telling me there were no adjusters, when the head of the brake pedal left an indentation in the floor it was time to re-line the brakes !!

Colin

[jessec96]

I took the landy for a spin around the block yesterday. Brakes work well and i can feel the car pulling up slowly as soon as i start to depress the pedal through its travel. If I stomp on it hard i get the fronts to lock up.
I think the combintation of the "NEW" leaking master cylinder, wrong sized front cylinders aswell as the brake shoes not fully contacting the drums was causing the issue. Once everything was installed bleeding the fluid through was actually a breeze as i could feel the pedal coming up.

Cheers so far guys really appreciating the input and ideas. Hope to be able to help you out with some of my knowledge in the future.

[Ferg]

I don't suppose that you could supply me with the part number of your new front brake cylinders please? I'm having a similar issue.
Righteo, I put through an order the other day for the correct size front cylinders and a new master cylinder (found a tiny bit of fluid behind the boot so I thought I’d just replace).
Got to fitting them up last night, installed new master cylinder and bleed up with same issue. So installed correct wheel cylinders and sanded the front shoes to better contact the drums. Re adjusted all snail cams until wheels were hard to turn, re bled system.... I know have a pedal that is firm halfway down in travel, locks up front brakes while reversing in and out of shed and stomping on the pedal so 100% better then before I know have brakes!

Although to me the pedal still seems a little low at half travel, all brakes are adjusted up and all shoes have good contact patterns, pedal is firm and doesn’t feel spongey, how much travel should there be on a series 2 single circuit system? I might be being to picky with the old girl now!

[4bee]

I don't suppose that you could supply me with the part number of your new front brake cylinders please? I'm having a similar issue.

Just a thought, could the threaded pushrod in the MC be out of adjustment?

[whitehillbilly64]

Land Rover Parts - BRAKE WHEEL CYLINDER KIT - S1 (1954-58)+S2A+S3 4 cylinder petrol or diesel. 88" SWB (2 stud fixing) (https://www.britishautoparts.com.au/inc/sdetail/57669)

[jessec96]

I don't suppose that you could supply me with the part number of your new front brake cylinders please? I'm having a similar issue.

243296 and 243297 were the part numbers for lhf and rhf 1/4 wheel cylinders. Got them through British Auto Parts in Bayswater Vic. great to deal with and super fast postage.

[Ferg]

No, one of the first things I played with.
Just a thought, could the threaded pushrod in the MC be out of adjustment?