NT to bring back climbing Uluru?

[bob10]

In partnership with local indigenous people, with safety harnesses like the harbour bridge, accompanied by indigenous guides. Just a proposal at this stage.


Calls to reopen Uluru climb to kickstart Northern Territory tourism (https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2020/05/12/uluru-climb-reopen-tourism/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=PM%20Extra%20-%2020200512)

[grey_ghost]

Lol - oh my. 🥳[emoji23]

[Blknight.aus]

theres dollars attached.

it'll stick.

give it.... 3-5 years

[Tins]

Climbed the bridge in the 70s, no guide, just lots of rum and some stupid as me AJs.

[W&KO]

****ing hypocrites if they allow or get pressured to allowing people to climb.

It is well discussed before it was closing what they were going to do if numbers reduced. Virus or not a % of punters would/are choosing not to visit if they cannot climb.

Harness, guide, more infrastructure oh and suddenly it now OK to step on the rock.

All I’ve read is government and business making comment....have the owners piped in.

[Eevo]

ka-ching $$$

[trout1105]

I do believe that the closure of the rock was more politically motivated that it was a cultural issue and it was always just a matter of time before the lack of revenue would start to effect this decision.[bigwhistle]

[Saitch]

In partnership with local indigenous people, with safety harnesses like the harbour bridge, accompanied by indigenous guides. Just a proposal at this stage.


Calls to reopen Uluru climb to kickstart Northern Territory tourism (https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2020/05/12/uluru-climb-reopen-tourism/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=PM%20Extra%20-%2020200512)

Gawd, is nothing sacred?

[V8Ian]

Gawd, is nothing sacred?
To some, yes. The almighty dollar.

[bob10]

****ing hypocrites if they allow or get pressured to allowing people to climb.

It is well discussed before it was closing what they were going to do if numbers reduced. Virus or not a % of punters would/are choosing not to visit if they cannot climb.

Harness, guide, more infrastructure oh and suddenly it now OK to step on the rock.

All I’ve read is government and business making comment....have the owners piped in.

Just a thought bubble from the Alice Springs major business group, not sure how far it will go, but they didn't consult the traditional owners first. Typical.


But the idea was flatly rejected by Sammy Wilson, who was chairman of the Uluru Kata-Tjuta board of management in 2017 when the decision was made to close the climb.“No. Enough is enough. The word is no,” said Mr Wilson, who remains on the board.“We don’t want to open a can of worms or put more logs on the fire.”Traditional owners say closing the climb presents an opportunity for visitors to experience the spectacular country around Uluru and learn about the Anangu people and culture.

[spie]

Traditional owners say closing the climb presents an opportunity for visitors to experience the spectacular country around Uluru and learn about the Anangu people and culture.

How's that been going?

[bob10]

How's that been going?


Don't know.

[Bigbjorn]

Several "Secret business" places and "sacred sites" have been found not to be so secret or sacred once the mining companies started splashing $$$$$$ around.

[INter674]

I hope they di as I've always wanted to climb it but the last time I was there it was too windy...not..and we were told to wait until the coach visitors had left and we'd be allowed up. Unfortunately we had to find a camp site outside the park so had to leave b 4 it got too dark.

Pity...it was quite an attraction to going there in the first place😐

[jonesfam]

Don't want to climb it.
Don't even want to go there.
I'm probably wrong but I imagine it as The Gold Coast with a little less Bling & not as much fun.
Jonesfam

[DiscoMick]

How's that been going?Not at all during the covid shutdown, I imagine.

[Arapiles]

I do believe that the closure of the rock was more politically motivated that it was a cultural issue and it was always just a matter of time before the lack of revenue would start to effect this decision.[bigwhistle]


Your belief would be wrong.

However, keeping it open against the wishes of the traditional owners was very much political.

And, in case it's not clear, it's not the traditional owners suggesting this, they weren't consulted and if you read on in the article they flatly reject it.

And if this bloke thinks that the issues around climbing the rock would be solved by safety harnesses then he hasn't been listening.

[DiscoMick]

Its traditional, a bit like we might feel if people started climbing a cathedral and peeing on the roof.

[Eevo]

Its traditional, a bit like we might feel if people started climbing a cathedral and peeing on the roof.


except a cathedral is manmade

[Saitch]

except a cathedral is manmade

….......and built for a specific purpose.

[trout1105]

Your belief would be wrong.

However, keeping it open against the wishes of the traditional owners was very much political.

So you are saying that it is purely coincidental that after the Uluru Statement wasn't implemented that the same people that hosted the event decided to close down the rock [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

They never wanted it opened, but were forced to agree back in the day as a condition of being granted the land rights. The park is leased from them, so be grateful they don't just shut the gate and tell us all to buggar off, same as any other landowner could do.

[Arapiles]

So you are saying that it is purely coincidental that after the Uluru Statement wasn't implemented that the same people that hosted the event decided to close down the rock [bigwhistle]


Given that they've wanted the climbing stopped since tourists started doing it in the 1950s, that it was an issue when the land was given back in the 1980s, and there were signs asking people to not climb when I visited in the mid-90s (and the signs clearly weren't new), yes, it had nothing to do with the Uluru statement.

[Arapiles]

except a cathedral is manmade

Being a natural object doesn't mean it can't be sacred - as an example, there are sacred rocks, mountains and trees all over Japan. There are sacred mountains in Greece and Tibet.

But you're saying that they can't really be sacred to Shinto, or Buddhism or Christianity because they're not man-made?

[Eevo]

Being a natural object doesn't mean it can't be sacred - as an example, there are sacred rocks, mountains and trees all over Japan. There are sacred mountains in Greece and Tibet.

But you're saying that they can't really be sacred to Shinto, or Buddhism or Christianity because they're not man-made?

i was pointing out his comparison is flawed.

i definitely find it hard to attach any sacredness to a natural feature of the land such rock, mountain or watering hole

[trout1105]

They never wanted it opened, but were forced to agree back in the day as a condition of being granted the land rights. The park is leased from them, so be grateful they don't just shut the gate and tell us all to buggar off, same as any other landowner could do.

If it was a part of the "Deal" then they have obviously "Reneged" on that deal, Personally they can close the gates whenever they like as far as I am concerned But they would only be cutting off their nose to spite their face if they did.

[trout1105]

i was pointing out his comparison is flawed.

i definitely find it hard to attach any sacredness to a natural feature of the land such rock, mountain or watering hole

It also seems to me to pretty "Convenient" that these "Sacred Sites" seen to always pop up when a new mining development is started or some other venture where money can be "Ransomed" off and wasted by the recipiants[bigwhistle]

[Arapiles]

It also seems to me to pretty "Convenient" that these "Sacred Sites" seen to always pop up when a new mining development is started or some other venture where money can be "Ransomed" off and wasted by the recipiants[bigwhistle]

Provide an example?

Noting that dreaming tracks cover most of the landscape in a particular group's territory.

[Tins]

I do believe that the closure of the rock was more politically motivated that it was a cultural issue and it was always just a matter of time before the lack of revenue would start to effect this decision.[bigwhistle]

Simply 'liking' or 'thanking' this post would not be enough. Well said, trout.

[Tins]

Gawd, is nothing sacred?

Given that Red Dan doesn't give a **** about his tunnel undermining St Paul's in Melbourne, I guess the answer to your question is a resounding NO. The question should be what, if anything IS sacred. Sacred depends on your belief system. Mine suggests that Ayers Rock is just that, a rock. Yours seems to suggest otherwise. Is yours more important than mine?

[Tins]

the traditional owners first. Typical.






What, nobody consulted the kadimakara? Typical. I mean, they were here before the so called traditional owners. Shouldn't we ask them?

When does this **** end?

Kadimakara australiensis - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadimakara_australiensis)

[Tins]

Don't know.

No. Of course not, Bob. You haven't considered it. Time you did.

[Tins]

Several "Secret business" places and "sacred sites" have been found not to be so secret or sacred once the mining companies started splashing $$$$$$ around.

Funny that. Amazing what a lobby group can do.

[Tins]

I hope they di as I've always wanted to climb it but the last time I was there it was too windy...not..and we were told to wait until the coach visitors had left and we'd be allowed up. Unfortunately we had to find a camp site outside the park so had to leave b 4 it got too dark.

Pity...it was quite an attraction to going there in the first place😐

But heck, it sure was something from a distance, right?? Next time, head for Mt Augustus in WA. Nobody has claimed that. Yet. And it's bigger, only not so red.

[Tins]

The Gold Coast with a little less Bling & not as much fun.
Jonesfam

Sure doesn't have the High Rise and the surf.. But it has a pull the Gold Coast can never match. Funny, didn't the "traditional owners" also own the Gold Coast? Surely they did.

[Tins]

Your belief would be wrong.



Isn't that a matter of YOUR opinion? What evidence do you have that your opinion is correct? Could it be none? Opinion is just that.

[Tins]

Its traditional, a bit like we might feel if people started climbing a cathedral and peeing on the roof.

People often do that on the Opera House, often to the cheering of the far left. Does that make their opinion more valuable than mine? I often pee on my garden. Is my garden any less property of these Traditional Owners than the Rock? If so, how?

Here is a challenge. All those who believe that the 'Traditional Owners' have some claim to this country can give up their house, or Body Corporate, or freehold, or whatever to those Traditional Owners, in some kind of ceremony, and I'll match you.

How about it? Is your little piece of Australia stolen? Do you owe your block to somebody else?

This country belongs to us ALL. If you believe otherwise put your money where your mouth is.... Damn, there should really be a 'crickets' emoji on this site, 'cos that's what's needed. Not one of you would give up your little piece, but you pontificate about us all giving up everything. Well, I won't. Everything changes, and it always will. I'm as Australian as Justin, and , what can I say, he told me to call him an Abo, and everyone will jump on me for doing so, but he was fine with it, I'm as Australian as he is, and I'm older. When are people going to stop being led by the nose by busybody nobodies?? Has everyone lost their individuality? Justin sure hasn't, though I don't see him so much these days.

Mick, if you seriously believe that the rock is a cathedral, I suggest you get out and live with the people you are simplistically championing. They have no concept of cathedral. They don't care about what you think is important. And, most importantly, the people you think are important no longer exist. There are no tribes any more. There sure are no traditional tribes anywhere near the rock. Like it or not, those days have been over for nearly 100 years. If you want to turn back the clock, start with your place.

[bob10]

No. Of course not, Bob. You haven't considered it. Time you did.


Not at all. Your trolling is not going to work.

[Saitch]

Given that Red Dan doesn't give a **** about his tunnel undermining St Paul's in Melbourne, I guess the answer to your question is a resounding NO. The question should be what, if anything IS sacred. Sacred depends on your belief system. Mine suggests that Ayers Rock is just that, a rock. Yours seems to suggest otherwise. Is yours more important than mine?

My comment Gawd, is nothing sacred? is meant to be 'Tongue in Cheek', JT.
This just goes to show how easily comments can be misconstrued. :oops2:

[bob10]

I hope those on their soap box realise this article is purely about the business community in Alice Springs putting forward a suggestion they think will kick start the local economy. Nothing to do with the traditional owners at all. Those who suggest the traditional owners are pushing this in any way shape or form should actually read the article. Some of you have hijacked this thread to push your own agenda. I was hoping for a mature discussion on the proposal , it's merits and drawbacks, but sadly that is still not possible here. And that is sad.

[Bulletman]

I hope those on their soap box realise this article is purely about the business community in Alice Springs putting forward a suggestion they think will kick start the local economy. Nothing to do with the traditional owners at all. Those who suggest the traditional owners are pushing this in any way shape or form should actually read the article. Some of you have hijacked this thread to push your own agenda. I was hoping for a mature discussion on the proposal , it's merits and drawbacks, but sadly that is still not possible here. And that is sad.

I not really sure why you bothered posting it at all Bob , the traditional owners flatly refused it - There is no story and no discussion to be had on the topic...

Anyone with a 1/4 of a brain knew when it was closed to climbing it would affect tourist numbers , and the easy and very lazy way to get people to talk about Alice and tourism, is to talk about opening the rock back up to climbing.

Alice has far more pressing issue's to address in regards to attracting tourist , and those are to name just a couple , anti social behaviour, crime , and the simple costs involved to get there.. flights, distance etc etc

The rock is only 1 of the many great things to see around Alice , but for some strange reason the tourism heads there don't and haven't promoted anything else. Its easy to sell a saleable item , but they had plenty of warning this was coming and they still did nothing , now everyone is scratching their heads and trying to take the easy option again - open the rock …. instead of getting out and finding and selling the rest of Alice and its surrounds.. the rock is over 400ks from Alice , but you never hear about things to do around Alice.

Wouldn't matter what public forum you put this topic in , its bound to end up exactly where this thread has gone. If / When the subject comes up with support from all parties involved , then maybe some decent discussion can be had, but I very much doubt it..

The topic was the Troll , not the people involved in it....

Bulletman

[trout1105]

This has Everything to do with the traditional owners.
They closed down the Rock without considering or caring about the rest of the Community as a whole in the Alice that depend on the tourism that was generated when the Rock was open.
A lot of people depend on the tourist dollar in that area and the closure of the Rock has had a significant detrimental effect on their livelihood and I doubt very much if the traditional owners care that much about the effect on others in the community.

[Hogarthde]

I fervently agree Bulletman; Alice is an amazing place apart from those issues you mentioned.

My lovely wife was born and raised in Alice ( or surrounding stations) ,and we have spent weeks touring, East MacDonnells , West Macdonnells, Arltunga, Ruby Gorge ,,, the list is just about endless.

[DiscoMick]

People often do that on the Opera House, often to the cheering of the far left. Does that make their opinion more valuable than mine? I often pee on my garden. Is my garden any less property of these Traditional Owners than the Rock? If so, how?

Here is a challenge. All those who believe that the 'Traditional Owners' have some claim to this country can give up their house, or Body Corporate, or freehold, or whatever to those Traditional Owners, in some kind of ceremony, and I'll match you.

How about it? Is your little piece of Australia stolen? Do you owe your block to somebody else?

This country belongs to us ALL. If you believe otherwise put your money where your mouth is.... Damn, there should really be a 'crickets' emoji on this site, 'cos that's what's needed. Not one of you would give up your little piece, but you pontificate about us all giving up everything. Well, I won't. Everything changes, and it always will. I'm as Australian as Justin, and , what can I say, he told me to call him an Abo, and everyone will jump on me for doing so, but he was fine with it, I'm as Australian as he is, and I'm older. When are people going to stop being led by the nose by busybody nobodies?? Has everyone lost their individuality? Justin sure hasn't, though I don't see him so much these days.

Mick, if you seriously believe that the rock is a cathedral, I suggest you get out and live with the people you are simplistically championing. They have no concept of cathedral. They don't care about what you think is important. And, most importantly, the people you think are important no longer exist. There are no tribes any more. There sure are no traditional tribes anywhere near the rock. Like it or not, those days have been over for nearly 100 years. If you want to turn back the clock, start with your place.Its very simple, really.
They used to own the whole country, our ancestors took it off them during the 150-year frontier wars, they got some bits back, and as owners they control who goes there. If we object, tough titty - get used to it!
The Rock is a religious site, so that puts it in exactly the same category as a cathedral.
Oh, don't pee on my land either, unless I give you permission.
Some people could learn a lot by watching the 'First Australians' series on SBS on Demand.

[Saitch]

Rather than literature and television, some people could learn a lot more from parties involved with the 'Traditional Owners' in the commercial, mining and development sectors. When I was involved in the late '90s, early 2000s, on a mining site in central Queensland, I have to say that I was somewhat shocked by the lack of interest and knowledge shown by the highly paid, indigenous representatives who had to give the OK to certain areas we needed to access. The same thing happened on a proposed mining site recently with a friend of mine, who is an archaeolologist skilled in aboriginal artifacts. She was pointing out things to the 'Advisers' that they had no idea about. These advisers were on $200 an hour.
Sad, but true.

[pop058]

I hope those on their soap box realise this article is purely about the business community in Alice Springs putting forward a suggestion they think will kick start the local economy. Nothing to do with the traditional owners at all. Those who suggest the traditional owners are pushing this in any way shape or form should actually read the article. Some of you have hijacked this thread to push your own agenda. I was hoping for a mature discussion on the proposal , it's merits and drawbacks, but sadly that is still not possible here. And that is sad.

Despite your honourable intentions, I think it is a little naive in this day and age (on a public forum) to think that such an emotional subject would not attract extreme comments.

[bob10]

Despite your honourable intentions, I think it is a little naive in this day and age (on a public forum) to think that such an emotional subject would not attract extreme comments.

I agree, and naïve I most certainly must be. We must ask what are the emotions that convince people they have to put forth such diatribe. Jealousy? Hatred ? Or is it just low self esteem , that convinces them to try to foment unrest in society? Or are they just bullies, picking on those they think are beneath them. In this day and age, we should all be above that.

[bob10]

Rather than literature and television, some people could learn a lot more from parties involved with the 'Traditional Owners' in the commercial, mining and development sectors. When I was involved in the late '90s, early 2000s, on a mining site in central Queensland, I have to say that I was somewhat shocked by the lack of interest and knowledge shown by the highly paid, indigenous representatives who had to give the OK to certain areas we needed to access. The same thing happened on a proposed mining site recently with a friend of mine, who is an archaeolologist skilled in aboriginal artifacts. She was pointing out things to the 'Advisers' that they had no idea about. These advisers were on $200 an hour.
Sad, but true.

They would have been no more custodians of the ancestral land than you or I. Some of the best con men I know are aboriginal, made easier by the fact the average white man knows nothing about aboriginal culture. The mining companies can grease a black palm as easy as a white one.

[pop058]

I agree, and naïve I most certainly must be. We must ask what are the emotions that convince people they have to put forth such diatribe. Jealousy? Hatred ? Or is it just low self esteem , that convinces them to try to foment unrest in society? Or are they just bullies, picking on those they think are beneath them. In this day and age, we should all be above that.

You (and others) may think contra opinions to yours are diatribe or hatred" (and others make think the same of yours) OR it could be something as simple as they do not share your beliefs. After all the catalyst of this whole thing seems to be what one does or does not believe.

[pop058]

They would have been no more custodians of the ancestral land than you or I. Some of the best con men I know are aboriginal, made easier by the fact the average white man knows nothing about aboriginal culture. The mining companies can grease a black palm as easy as a white one.

Then you can you appreciate why there are skeptics ??

[bob10]

Then you can you appreciate why there are skeptics ??

Of course I can. The same as I can appreciate why there are Nazis, Taliban, Klu klux klan, etc. All borne out of fear and ignorance. I don't blame the people so much, as the environment they grow up in. What I do find is in most of these people you will find a reluctance to reach out to try to understand those that they regard as different, or social and intellectual inferiors .

[pop058]

Of course I can. The same as I can appreciate why there are Nazis, Taliban, Klu klux klan, etc. All borne out of fear and ignorance. I don't blame the people so much, as the environment they grow up in. What I do find is in most of these people you will find a reluctance to reach out to try to understand those that they regard as different, or social and intellectual inferiors .

It is a pretty big stretch to compare nazis, taliban and the KKK with someone that thinks it is "just a rock" (for example). And, once again, it is just your opinion/belief that others are driven by "fear and ignorance" just because they differ from your line of thinking. That does not necessarily make it true.

From a personal point of view, I don't think I have any "fears" in regard to (any) other cultures in our society and will happily admit to not knowing all the deep dark secrets and traditions of any of them. I have a general understanding of the ones that interest or have some affect on me/my family and that, like everyone else is a personal choice.

[bob10]

It is a pretty big stretch to compare nazis, taliban and the KKK with someone that thinks it is "just a rock" (for example). And, once again, it is just your opinion/belief that others are driven by "fear and ignorance" just because they differ from your line of thinking. That does not necessarily make it true.

From a personal point of view, I don't think I have any "fears" in regard to (any) other cultures in our society and will happily admit to not knowing all the deep dark secrets and traditions of any of them. I have a general understanding of the ones that interest or have some affect on me/my family and that, like everyone else is a personal choice.

I think you should read it again. I made the point that I thought someone's environment was instrumental in forming their Belief structure, and if you look closely at the three examples I gave you will see that fear and ignorance are driving forces in all of them. And that is the belief of many prominent historians , recorded for you and any one else to read. I base some of my opinions/ belief's on documented evidence, and I also try to find out as much as I can on a subject before I make comment. something I can recommend..

[Saitch]

you will see that fear and ignorance are driving forces in all of them.

But, isn't that the crux of indigenous mythology? If the actual reason for something's existence was not understood , then a good yarn was made up to explain things e.g. the Glass House Mountains. They're volcanic plugs, not Mum, Dad and a cowardly little boy.
Then there's the Coloured Sands story : Minerals, not a rainbow serpent v magic boomerang, the two sisters teardrop marks at Gantheaume Pt. near Broome : Dinosaur prints not tears, and so on.
These are nice stories but should they take precedence over the facts?
One 'Dreamtime Story' I remember was about the creation of the moon, caused by an old black fella throwing a shining boomerang into the sky so his people could see at night. No harm with the story but how would it have gone down with NASA if a complaint had been put in about the 1st moon landing?

I'm not saying that these, or any creed or culture's beliefs and myths, should be denigrated but surely, common sense, even though in short supply apparently, should prevail in the struggle of Fact v Fiction..................and there are no greater purveyors of 'Fear and Ignorance' than the 'God Above' establishments.

[bob10]

But, isn't that the crux of indigenous mythology? If the actual reason for something's existence was not understood , then a good yarn was made up to explain things e.g. the Glass House Mountains. They're volcanic plugs, not Mum, Dad and a cowardly little boy.
Then there's the Coloured Sands story : Minerals, not a rainbow serpent v magic boomerang, the two sisters teardrop marks at Gantheaume Pt. near Broome : Dinosaur prints not tears, and so on.
These are nice stories but should they take precedence over the facts?
One 'Dreamtime Story' I remember was about the creation of the moon, caused by an old black fella throwing a shining boomerang into the sky so his people could see at night. No harm with the story but how would it have gone down with NASA if a complaint had been put in about the 1st moon landing?

I'm not saying that these, or any creed or culture's beliefs and myths, should be denigrated but surely, common sense, even though in short supply apparently, should prevail in the struggle of Fact v Fiction..................and there are no greater purveyors of 'Fear and Ignorance' than the 'God Above' establishments.

You and many like you miss the point entirely. No point in discussing this any more because it's pointless, really. It is just too difficult for some one with the colonial mind set to begin to understand ,[ and I struggle to fully understand as well, the deeper I get into it, the harder it gets. I have the disadvantage of not being a fully initiated man , and they are the custodians of their land , the only ones who can pass on the dreaming. So your story of the archaeologist telling aboriginal 'advisers ' doesn't make sense. There is no way she would be permitted to know the sacred sites.. And were the 'advisers' fully initiated men, Or just a couple of men from the local land council, out to garner maximum profit from the mining company?]

and as far as traditional ownership goes, Terra Nullias was made illegal, and null and void with the Mabo decision. It's not my intention to come across as an ' expert' because I am most certainly not. But it irks me to see what some here with absolutely no understanding call informed debate, and expect it to be taken as written. This is a complex and difficult subject for the average white man to understand, and sadly more and more young aboriginal men are not being initiated into the culture. An example of the total lack of understanding is given by your suggestion that the dreaming story of the creation of the moon may leave NASA open for some type of claim. Sorry but that is ridiculous. Anyway, I've had my say, that'll do me.



Understanding Aboriginal Dreaming (https://www.aboriginal-art-australia.com/aboriginal-art-library/understanding-aboriginal-dreaming-and-the-dreamtime/)

[trout1105]

Of course I can. The same as I can appreciate why there are Nazis, Taliban, Klu klux klan, etc. All borne out of fear and ignorance. I don't blame the people so much, as the environment they grow up in. What I do find is in most of these people you will find a reluctance to reach out to try to understand those that they regard as different, or social and intellectual inferiors .

Why is it that every time people don't agree with your personal philosophy you resort to denigrating them, I this particular example comparing them to "Nazis, Taliban and Klu Klux Klan" ??
In my Personal opinion I believe that ALL religions and Mythologies are pure fantasy, Does that make me a Nazi??

[pop058]

Of course I can. The same as I can appreciate why there are Nazis, Taliban, Klu klux klan, etc. All borne out of fear and ignorance. I don't blame the people so much, as the environment they grow up in. What I do find is in most of these people you will find a reluctance to reach out to try to understand those that they regard as different, or social and intellectual inferiors .


It is a pretty big stretch to compare nazis, taliban and the KKK with someone that thinks it is "just a rock" (for example). And, once again, it is just your opinion/belief that others are driven by "fear and ignorance" just because they differ from your line of thinking. That does not necessarily make it true.

From a personal point of view, I don't think I have any "fears" in regard to (any) other cultures in our society and will happily admit to not knowing all the deep dark secrets and traditions of any of them. I have a general understanding of the ones that interest or have some affect on me/my family and that, like everyone else is a personal choice.


I think you should read it again. I made the point that I thought someone's environment was instrumental in forming their Belief structure, and if you look closely at the three examples I gave you will see that fear and ignorance are driving forces in all of them. And that is the belief of many prominent historians , recorded for you and any one else to read. I base some of my opinions/ belief's on documented evidence, and I also try to find out as much as I can on a subject before I make comment. something I can recommend..

I have read it several times but still cannot draw any parallels between the 3 groups you have mentioned and the "average white man" (the term I presume you are using to identify those that don't share your opinion). I am happy to concede that those raised by/around your "Nasties" would develop/adjust their attitudes and beliefs accordingly but how does that relate to the AWM. Like a lot of others, I know (quite a few) families that do not have any axe murderers, Nazi sympathers, men in white hoods/suits, etc. among them yet are still skeptical.

If you would care to share some of the "documented evidence" you recommend that links the Nazis, Taliban and KKK to those that don't share your opinion, I would be grateful, thanks.