Alpine diesel What's in it?

[Coastie]

A little off topic for biofuels but I am interested in alpine diesel as we are off to Victoria for the snow in July and I've just bought a new diesel vehicle and was wondering if the alpine diesel would be detrimental to the new motor.

[rangieman]

ok we got some alpine fuel at work last week , i was talking to the tanker driver and he told me he had to mix it up and he told me it was 60/40 mix
60% diesel and 40%heating oil which is kerosene

i cant see this harming a new engine by the time you get to vic you should have some ks on it so it should have freed up a bit

[one_iota]

A little off topic for biofuels but I am interested in alpine diesel as we are off to Victoria for the snow in July and I've just bought a new diesel vehicle and was wondering if the alpine diesel would be detrimental to the new motor.

Oh dear... you have *****ed my conscience...I was to write a short piece for the magazine about this based on the Australian Standard...it has to do with the temperature at which diesel begins to precipitate wax...this is controlled at the refinery and the southern refineries release a different distilate based on the likely probability of low temperature in the supply areas..should I go on?

[Omaroo]

It might be detrimental NOT to use it.

Driving down to Cooma and forgetting to fill up when we hit town and then stopping for the night at our place, I've had both my Grand Cherokee (Mercedes CRD common-rail) and our Defender Td5 unable to start for a couple of hours the next morning. When they finally did they smoked and chugged and carried on like pork chops for another hour. The diesel waxed up in the fuel lines and tank and obviously the injectors were having a hard time controlling reliable fuel delivery. This was in temperatures that weren't even cold - minus one centigrade!

Use the alpine mix if you are in the snow - it works well, and doesn't coagulate into a waxy mess until it gets down to some pretty lean temperatures....

[SneakyPete]

Yeah, its a bastard having your diesel freeze up. We had a couple of minus 10's in Braidwood about 12 years ago and you couldn't even get diesel out of the bowser at the servo till about 10am. For some reason Hilux's seemed particularly prone to failing to proceed in such conditions.

SneakyPete

[Tusker]

From memory all diesel supplied in winter south of Canberra has a small amount of anti-waxing in it.

Regards
Max P

[Omaroo]

From memory all diesel supplied in winter south of Canberra has a small amount of anti-waxing in it.

Regards
Max P

Not any more Max. Apparently some servos don't offer it any more (even one in Cooma) - but say so on the pump. I don't know why.

[Skills]

ok we got some alpine fuel at work last week , i was talking to the tanker driver and he told me he had to mix it up and he told me it was 60/40 mix
60% diesel and 40%heating oil which is kerosene


The BP website had a file called Winter Diesel Problems:
<snip>


BLENDING DIESEL



If you are not in an alpine area but have abnormally cold weather, a diesel blend may provide some relief to lower the cloud point. Heating oil (duty paid at diesel rate) is an effective blending agent and your BP supplier can provide information on how to perform this safely, but typically would involve the following:



-

Heating Oil at 25 litres for each 100 Litres of diesel, or



-

kerosine at 5 litres for each 100 litres of Diesel.

<snip>


Alpine diesel only works with a concentrayion of 75% alpine in the tank to normal diesel. When we travel to alpine areas we take a 5Litre can of kerosene. If we have half a tank by the time we reach the hills we top up with kerosene to 5% of current tank and fill the rest of the tank with alpine diesel. That way we are always covered. We also mix our own if Easter is cold, because Alpine diesel is not always availble until June.
Works with Tdi and TD5.

[kando]

G'day mates,

When I was driving trucks in the USA we never shut the engines down once the cold weather set in, we kept the engines running 24/7 for the whole winter season.
In the North of England, West Yorkshire, where I drove coaches and the snow only got to about four foot deep, we would use a cut down oil can, about 6" deep, fill it with a few rags, soak the rags in metho or diesel from another can, place it under the coachs diesel tank and set fire to it. When the diesel warmed-up and degelled enough for us to start the coaches the diesel in the fuel return line was warm enough to help degell the remaining diesel in the tank, it normally took about 30 minutes to warm the oil in the tank enough to degell the first lot of cold oil and start the coaches and we never left the fires unatended for obvious reasons :rolleyes:

Bill from Corio

[B92 8NW]

I've used Alpine Diesel once, I presume it had a lot of Kerosene in it because it smelled like a 747 taking off... Would it not be best to contact the manufacturer of your car?

[JDNSW]

This thread reminds me of the description given by my brother when he wintered in Antarctica in 1970. When away from base they kept the engines (Detroit diesels) running continuously - using straight kerosine as fuel. Stopped once a week just long enough to change the oil, from memory SAE 5 diluted with diesel.

My only experience with this sort of problem was one cold (about -10) winter's morning at Ayer's Rock in 1966. I was unable to start my 2a until I changed both filters.
John

[LandyAndy]

Hi Guys
I wonder how a diesel would go on JET A1?????
I guess not long as it is a "dry coarse" feeling liquid compared to diesel.
I just love the smell of burning jet fuel:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Andrew

[George130]

Winter mix must work as we get -7 and -8 on a regula basis in winter. It might not be at that temp for long but I have never had to wait for the glow plugs. I just wait for the engine check at turn the key, instant start.

[muddymech]

couple of years ago when in france we were having tempartures at night down around -15c
my 90 (200tdi) did not like starting had to be bumped started down hill every morning.
however once started plenty of smoke (unburnt fuel) lots of banging it went fine after a few minutes.
although i do find the 200tdi like to get a bit of warmth in them before behaving decently.
the 300tdi started fine and seemed to have no problem with
the diesal fuel used there.

[waynep]

We were camped up near Mansfield a couple of weks ago it got to -6 degrees that night.

In the morning three of the six diesels wouldn't start ( Jackaroos and a Hilux ). A bit of warm water over the fuel pumps and injectors and pumping the lift pumps manually eventually go them going.

The two 300Tdi Discos in the group started quite normally.
I had about 10% of alpine diesel in the tank and I run Moreys additive - don't know if that helped or not.

[wardy1]

Just got mental pic of line of coaches in england as per Kando's description....... did u warm up your kippers on the fire too?????:eek: :eek: :lol: :lol:

[JDNSW]

Hi Guys
I wonder how a diesel would go on JET A1?????
I guess not long as it is a "dry coarse" feeling liquid compared to diesel.
I just love the smell of burning jet fuel:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Andrew

See my post above - the kerosene referred to was in fact Jet A1. Seemed to go perfectly well in the GMs in those conditions (typically -30 to -60), but not too sure how it would go in other types of engine or more normal temperatures.

Also reminds me of the section on Arctic operations in the owners manual for the Cessna 180 I used to own. The cold start device fitted to it was simply a tap that fed straight petrol into the sump - there was a table with temperature versus time you turned it on. In the coldest conditions you added about 50% petrol to the sump, which thinned the oil enough to start, and as it warmed up the petrol evaporated off. Rather crude it struck me, but probably better than the alternative, which was to light a petrol fire under the engine!
John

[Coastie]

The research has been done and the alpine diesel has a percentage of heating oil (kerosene) in it. As per the BP website.

I wonder how the composite fuel tanks in the Disco would like a little fire underneath it to warm it up. All would be good until it melts.

I remember my first diesel experience in Brisvegas many years ago the diesel fuel was a distinctive blue colour not the pale yellow (p155) colour it is now. Probably a high content of kero in that until it was regulated a bit more. Diesel was about 12 cpl and kero about 4cpl. Those were the days.

[Graz]

See my post above - the kerosene referred to was in fact Jet A1. Seemed to go perfectly well in the GMs in those conditions (typically -30 to -60), but not too sure how it would go in other types of engine or more normal temperatures.

Also reminds me of the section on Arctic operations in the owners manual for the Cessna 180 I used to own. The cold start device fitted to it was simply a tap that fed straight petrol into the sump - there was a table with temperature versus time you turned it on. In the coldest conditions you added about 50% petrol to the sump, which thinned the oil enough to start, and as it warmed up the petrol evaporated off. Rather crude it struck me, but probably better than the alternative, which was to light a petrol fire under the engine!
John

Jet A1 works fine in any diesel. Jet A1 is basically refined kerosene. As Jet A1 does not have the same lubrication properties of distilate those maintenance engineers lucky enough to score a job that involves draining an aircraft fuel tank and get to keep the kero add a litre of engine oil per tank fill in their vehicle to look after the fuel injection pump.

[Mulgo]

While traveling with our Td5 through northern India with temperatures down to -15 at night we just added up to 20% of normal petrol when filling up the tank. 20% was actually suggested in our LR Handbook.

While the locals made a bonfire under their trucks to freeze up the fuel lines, our Td5 engine started every morning on the second attempt. Worked fine for us.

[gruntfuttock]

While traveling with our Td5 through northern India with temperatures down to -15 at night we just added up to 20% of normal petrol when filling up the tank. 20% was actually suggested in our LR Handbook.

While the locals made a bonfire under their trucks to freeze up the fuel lines, our Td5 engine started every morning on the second attempt. Worked fine for us.


I think I said before that in France it is common place to place a few litres of petrol in you diesel when it gets cold.

[camel_landy]

Hi Guys
I wonder how a diesel would go on JET A1?????
I guess not long as it is a "dry coarse" feeling liquid compared to diesel.
I just love the smell of burning jet fuel:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Andrew

Your Landy should run on JET A1 quite nicely. Infact, one of the selling points about the Wolf Defender is that it can run on this type of stuff. The benefit being they don't have to maintain multiple fuel dumps when out in the field.

M

[303gunner]

Your Landy should run on JET A1 quite nicely. Infact, one of the selling points about the Wolf Defender is that it can run on this type of stuff. The benefit being they don't have to maintain multiple fuel dumps when out in the field.

M
Then you'd have no fuel problems if you threw one of these beauties (http://www.f1engineering.com/diesel%20bike%20specs.html) on the bike trailer for a trip away!

[Rovy]

Personally I’m going to add 5L kero per 100L diesel. Does anyone know where I can buy 5L for less than $10??

Is it just me or does everyone have this problem. It takes me up to 15min to get the last 35L of fuel into my tank (long range aftermarket). It just keeps foaming up and shutting the pump off or I trickle it in. It is a real pain, any suggestions???

Can you get alpine diesel in Sydney??

[gruntfuttock]

Personally I’m going to add 5L kero per 100L diesel. Does anyone know where I can buy 5L for less than $10??

Is it just me or does everyone have this problem. It takes me up to 15min to get the last 35L of fuel into my tank (long range aftermarket). It just keeps foaming up and shutting the pump off or I trickle it in. It is a real pain, any suggestions???

Can you get alpine diesel in Sydney??

How about filling to jerries then adding the diesel to your tank from there?

Just a thought

[George130]

Personally I’m going to add 5L kero per 100L diesel. Does anyone know where I can buy 5L for less than $10??

Is it just me or does everyone have this problem. It takes me up to 15min to get the last 35L of fuel into my tank (long range aftermarket). It just keeps foaming up and shutting the pump off or I trickle it in. It is a real pain, any suggestions???

Can you get alpine diesel in Sydney??

I have noticed that problem with my tanks. I think my main problem is that the pipes between the two tanks mean the first is filled and you need to wait for them to equalize before finnishing.

[Bigbjorn]

I would be loath to add any of these to an engine with the conventional diesel injection pump. Distillate is basically a light oil and has lubricating qualities, necessary in the those injection pumps as they are manufactured to very fine clearances and tolerances. Distillate also has rust inhibitors, and is seasonally adjusted to cope with low temperatures in appropriate areas. In the USA the refiners add more butane in some areas to improve cold weather startability, and change the process to remove more wax than usual in cold months. Good fuel filter/separators like a Raycor (the best one I have come across), used to be marketed by Duralife (Donaldson) Filter outlets, are a big help with dirty, watery, & waxy fuels. They could be had with a heating element according to an old Raycor brochure I have, but I never saw one so equipped in Oz. In North America and Europe I have seen diesel engined vehicles and plant that are habitually used in extreme cold conditions with the exhaust outlet directed at the primary fuel tank outlet to keep the fuel warm and flowing readily.

[Mulgo]

otherwise, just try this: :thumbsup:

[tombraider]

I wonder how the composite fuel tanks in the Disco would like a little fire underneath it to warm it up. All would be good until it melts.

Actually not an issue... If its reasonably full...

We demonstrated this on a plastic tank with an Oxy torch....:cool:

[Captain_Rightfoot]

Hi Guys
I wonder how a diesel would go on JET A1?????
I guess not long as it is a "dry coarse" feeling liquid compared to diesel.
I just love the smell of burning jet fuel:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Andrew

A pilot friend of mine said it's fine with a little 2/ oil in it :)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

This is an interesting thread. I was thinking about this recently. When in the Rudall River NP it got to -5 one morning and I wondered if I was going to have problems. By the time we were ready to leave (first light +2) it started no problems.

[Andrew]

To digress, many interstate trucks during the 70's where running a mix of Kero and oil in there fuel tanks , as there was no excise tax on kerosene.

[taff]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LandyAndy
Hi Guys
I wonder how a diesel would go on JET A1?????
I guess not long as it is a "dry coarse" feeling liquid compared to diesel.
I just love the smell of burning jet fuel
Andrew


i used to be in the airforce working 3rd line maintenance and when the jet went out for engine testing at the end of the service, the fuel then had to be drained for the aircraft wiegh. this fuel (avtur) was then "thrown" away in case of contaminants
i used to have a ford escort van 1.8 diesel and for the best part of my ownership i ran it on avtur (jet fuel and half a litre of mineral (i think) oil per tank which was also "supplied" by the airforce - god i miss those running costs :angel:

[howard]

only -45 of zero of tonight


diesel?

[Hotspur]

Head down to your local fuel depot and ask them if they stock Roxdiesel Antifreeze. You add it to your fuel tank, designed really to go into storage tanks, like the ones on most properties. Winter diesel starts in Qld about April and is supplied until approx late august. The Roxdiesel will take the starting point down to about minus 40 degrees C. When I was managing a fuel depot, we sold it for about $50 a 4 litre tin but that would treat about 2000 litres.

Cheers

Kieren

[Sprint]

my solution? live in central queensland, it never gets cold enough!

[mcrover]

This is an interesting thread. I was thinking about this recently. When in the Rudall River NP it got to -5 one morning and I wondered if I was going to have problems. By the time we were ready to leave (first light +2) it started no problems.

It' normally when it starts, it is 5 mins after it starts when it sucks the snot up into the fitler and blockes it up.:(