Bio Fuel WHO WHAT WHY AND WHERE?

[rsrichie]

ok i own a v8 at the moment but i plan on getting a Turbo Diesel aswell for touring and economy. I have heard of this bio diesel and seen the likes of willie nelson getting involved with it all in the states but what is it? can we make it ? where can we buy it from? what are the side effects ect ect. lets discuss this futher people.:D

[SneakyPete]

I've got friend thats been making it for years. From (my probably incorrect) memory he uses about 40 litres of methanol to 160 odd litres of lard and a bit of caustic. The methanol is mixed with caustic, then added to the lard (heated in a drum with agitator). The fatty ester chains are broken down and methylated, giving glycerine as a by product that goes on the garden. The measures have all got to be precise and there is a titration involved somewhere. I think the methanol is about 20c/litre. He gets fish and chip oil. Car runs fine, but the diesels made from animal tallow have a propsensity to gell at low temperatures. He carries a gas ring and sits it under his fuel tank in the morning to soften it up. I think you've also got to replace older rubber fuel lines. His diesel runs well on it, little bit down on power, but he also shandies with normal diesel at times. Got to be careful as methanol is toxic stuff, and caustic doesn't do you much good either if you mess with it.

There'd have to be someone on the site actually making the stuff? there are a couple of good books on it as well. The fat makes a god awful mess in your shed. It was designed to line arteries, not shed floors!

SneakyPete

[langy]

And, in addition to the above, now a company makes the stuff and it is sold about 5-10c/L cheaper at some discount type service stations. It isn't widely advertised as such, but once you smell the fish'n'chips type smell, and see the yellow tinged fuel, you'll be able to pick it as soon as you pull up to the bowser.

The downside - as previously discussed on the old forum is that engines with ECU's don't like it as much as Tdi's. I presume it has something to do with progamming of the ECU to mineral diesel specs.

Currently, the two places in Sydney I know that sell bio are

Zoom fuel, Milperra Rd Revesby cross St The River Rd ( McDonalds)
Discount fuel (?) Rookwood Rd Regents Pk, cross st Brunker Rd

there is a third supposedly Parramatta Rd Flemington, and a fourth (if it ever reopens) Marrickville Rd Marrickville.

It isn't for everyone - but it works for me in my manual Tdi.

Langy

[dobbo]

It basically comes down to weighing up your options

Making this chip fat hooch in the backyard, not for me, apart from the health risks associated with inhaling caustic soda over prolonged periods of time modern diesel engines are not designed to run on witches brothe. I can honestly see only a bad long term outcome on these engines, so weigh up the costs 20/l and running like a dog or 1.50/l and running like it should, surely the money saved on fuel will ultimately be spent on more frequent servicing and engine rebuilds.

If you are that concerned about the environment give me a p.m I'm sure we could do a straight swap your environmentally harmful landie for a horse and private lessons

I bet I don't get any messages (so why consider putting the crud in your tank to begin with)


P.S I don't believe the Rangie Sports comes standard with an electric motor does it?

[JDNSW]

With the price of oil in the US being now the same as the price of vegetable oil, there was a recent article (can't remember where I saw it) about a planned new facility for the large scale production of biodiesel there. A further attraction of biodiesel is that it has zero sulphur and much lower particulate emissions than conventional diesel. As the price of oil climbs and more emphasis is placed on emissions from diesels, expect to see more of it, probably at least at first as blends of mineral and biodiesel. It makes a lot more sense than ethanol as a transport fuel.

(Also works well in gas turbines except for the tendency to gel at low temperatures, which the USAF is working on)

[dobbo]

I totally agree with you JDNSW but all I'm saying is use appropriate fuels in appropriate engines. Just say buy ten diesel D3's brand spankas, drive five on biodiesel and five on ordinary diesel, drive them till they die and see which comes out the victor, I realise the grease pit emptiers have their vehicles running on bio diesel but most drive ford transits and as I said the simple mechanical diesels seem to work o.k on it. What about the high tech ones (like it or not we won't be driving Tdi's and the like around in twenty or thirty years all diesels if any will be high tech low emision ones like TD5 TD6 TDv6 etc.


see if any warrantee issues are dealt with when the stealer changes your fuel filter and finds a pluto pup or a fish cocktail.

[303gunner]

There is a Sydney forum for Biodiesel users and makers. http://www.biofuelsforum.com/
The forum is quite easy to navigate as it uses the same software as this site!:cool: Have a read through some of the threads.

Biodiesel has a few detractors which seem to base their arguments on the fact that Diesels aren't meant to run on Cooking Oil. Well, no perhaps not cooking oil (which will run run well in many diesels though, with minor modifications), but Biodiesel is not just cooking oil. It is a vegetable oil with the greasy Triglycerides chemically removed to be a proper fuel. Who says Biodiesel is OK for your Diesel? The fuel injection manufacturers actually. Bosch, Delphi (Lucas), Nippondenso and Stanadyne have stated that their equipment is suitable for and warranted for use with Biodiesel made to US ASTM or Euro DIN Standards. In NSW there are two commercial plants producing Biodiesel to these standards supplying a few servos in Sydney, and another plant in Northern Vic supplying the NSW Riverina and Volume Plus servos. A backyard producer is also capable of making fuel to meet these standards.
Is Biodiesel bad for your engine? BD is a powerful solvent that can degrade natural rubber products such as fuel lines and seals. If your vehicle has been built since around 1994, it will have Synthetic rubber in the fuel system to cope with Low Sulphur Diesel, so it will also be safe to use with Biodiesel. The same solvent action will clean out all the gum and junk in your tank and fuel lines, possibly clogging your fuel filter after the first or second tankful. The newer the vehicle, the less likelyhood of there being crud in your fuel lines. As for ruining engines, there Biodiesel users in the States and Europe who have clocked up 300,000km and their engines are as clean as a whistle inside. You should also know that Euro countries have MANDATED the use of a blend of petrodiesel and biodiesel, and it is the only type of diesel fuel available.
Does it rob power? Biodiesel is chemically 11% Oxygen. With petrodiesel, excessive fuel causes a cloud of black sooty smoke. Even with a Turbo, there is only so much that can burn completely. With Biodiesel, there is no sooty smoke as the fuel has a more complete burn. Diesel fuels measure thermal energy with a rating based on a Cetane number. Petrodiesel in Aust has a Cetane rating of around 45, while Canola based Biodiesel has a Cetane rating of 51, 10% higher. Biodiesel will produce more torque at lower revs, but does lose some top end power.
What's it worth? Biodiesel is currently in a funny position regarding the fuel excise. The 38c excise is levied on the fuel, but in an obscure scheme is then refunded to producers in a renewable fuel scheme. Today, petrodiesel is at $1.51/litre at my local servo. The 2 commercial plants in NSW are currently selling Biodiesel at a gate price (to the public) of $1.00-$1.10/litre. Buying at the bowser in a servo will usually save you 10-15c less than petrodiesel. If you were to make your own Biodiesel for your own use using used cooking oil, you could do it for less than 50c/litre.
How safe is it? Biodiesel is biodegradeable. It will degrade in soil quicker than sugar. Worms love the stuff. Getting it on your hands will make you smell a bit funny, but wont kill you if you eat some thing later. Biodiesel has a flash point of 151deg, making it safer to transport and handle than petrol or petrodiesel, which have lower flash points and will ignite more readily. The exhaust emissions are FAR cleaner than diesel exhaust, no sulphur, greatly reduced (<90%) cancer and asthma causing particulates.
All biodiesel currently sold in Aust is Aust made, you're not sending money to some rich Sheik in the Middle East. Aussie farmers grow the crops, and are getting higher prices than if the demand wasn't there.

Have a think about and look through the Biofuels forum. Ask a few questions and give it a try.

[rsrichie]

A test of that type would be good to see and mybe a complete pull down after say 30000k's to see if in any abnormal wear has occured just two probs that i can see the first one being cost and who would fund this type of test and the second problem could come from the oil companies bribeing the testers to find in their favour. I mean if oil is worth going to war over! you know what im getting at. Still it would be very interesting, I wonder if the LPG fumeagation would work with it to resolve the loss of power. As for the Gas ring to heat up the tank to stop solidifacation that might work but it would be completly impractical for the majority of users i would have thought, Maybe if that is needed a aftermarket tank heater like a rearvision demister but obviously larger.
I can see that there will have to be a lot of campaining to convince the public that these fuels may be safe to use I know i will be holding off till i have seen evidence of its stability as like most i cant afford to risk a investment as large as a vehicle on suspect fuels.

( EDIT:- this post was ment to go before the one by 303gunner but i was slow in typing lol)

[boggo]

No offence rsrichie,but a vehicle of any type,especially a 4wd that I hope you use(I'm sure you do),is not an investment(or not a very bloody good one anyway)!!Its about time that the public stop worrying about their back pocket,and concentrate more on their backyard!!:( What good is your money when you cant grow things in your dirt,drink your water or breathe your air???!!??? At least you'll get a few extra k's out of your motor,if you can still afford the juice that is.Just a thought.....:D

[rsrichie]

No offence rsrichie,but a vehicle of any type,especially a 4wd that I hope you use(I'm sure you do),is not an investment(or not a very bloody good one anyway)!!Its about time that the public stop worrying about their back pocket,and concentrate more on their backyard!!:( What good is your money when you cant grow things in your dirt,drink your water or breathe your air???!!??? At least you'll get a few extra k's out of your motor,if you can still afford the juice that is.Just a thought.....:D

yep no offence taken i agree with you and investment isnt proberly the correct word but the harsh reallity of this world is that money makes it go around so to speak and the less you have to spend it on items that shouldnt need it, the more time you can have to yourself enjoying the fruits of this life. Ah and i know the opposing argument to that but we need to find a solution and its not just a matter of saying its my way or the highway. Yes somthing needs to be done, and soon, that is the reason i am looking at the bio fuel as an alternative. I dont want to get into the whole save the world argument and to be perfeclty honest if you boggo are so righteous about it all then let me know where you plan to leave your fossil fuel filled and burning vehicle as you obviously dont need the money for it and couldnt possiably use it with your beliefs. Ill have it should make a nice bird avery out the back.:p

[303gunner]

I can see that there will have to be a lot of campaining to convince the public that these fuels may be safe to use I know i will be holding off till i have seen evidence of its stability as like most i cant afford to risk a investment as large as a vehicle on suspect fuels.

( EDIT:- this post was ment to go before the one by 303gunner but i was slow in typing lol)
OK, I have to admit at this point that I run Biodiesel in my Toyota 80 series Landcruiser:o . (Ex-Army Series 2A's run on petrol!). Now that I've got that admission out of the way, my cruiser's done 12,000km on 100% Biodiesel, or B100. In Spring, Summer, and Autumn there is absolutely no issues in starting the engine or driving. It loves it. It has become a much better tow vehicle, no black smoke, less injector rattle noise. I can get away with gear changes around about 300-400rpm sooner, and the top end power is only slightly less. Fuel economy has gone from 10.5l/100km to about 11.0l/km, hardly noticable. My oil changes are much cleaner as the oil no longer looks like black ink. The only drawback has been Winter time. It gets quite hard to start first thing on a cold morning, and has solidified in the fuel lines one frosty morning. A bucket of hot water on the injector pump got me on my way. I have an auxillary tank in the cruiser, so the smaller tank now holds petrodiesel which I use to start the car on cold mornings. When the car has warmed up, I change over to the Bio and have no issues for the rest of the day. My main tank is 95 litres, so the price of a fill is nearly $50 cheaper. The car's running great, and running cleaner as well. I don't need any convincing, Biodiesel's great!

[rangieman]

wow has,nt this opened up a can of worms and brought the good old techno knockers out:rolleyes:

[solmanic]

The current (June) issue of Overlander comes with a bonus extra issue (one of last years) which has an article on biodiesel. Makes it sound quite appealing but it is definitely more of an option if you are prepared to brew your own. I am thinking of starting a bio-diesel co-op with my in-laws.

As far as the TD5 is concerned - surely it must be possible to tweak the ECU settings to make it run fine on the stuff. At around 40c/l I'm willing to do the research and give it a try. Besides, Peugeot for one warrant their new cars to run on it in Europe.

[sclarke]

Goss Kip, you ate all the freeking Corn Chips.

[damo]

When arguing over buying our 300tdi Disco, one of my positives to my girl, was that we could run it on bio diesel without any problems and it's my intention to brew my own at some time, but i'll be trying the B50 first.

[footprint]

This seems like as good a place as any to let the landy community know that my good mate and i are about 80% of the way through our initial biodiesel development and testing process. It won't be long now before we start building the big tank to make larger batches (for private use).

We have been interested in the renewable energy/biofuel side for a long time and my mate decided it was time to bite the bullet and start testing biodiesel recipes. There is heaps of information out there on the web and the Sydney Biodiesel website (303Gunner sums it all up perfectly) is a great place to go and learn. I am astounded at the amount of misconceptions out there about biodiesel and it's amazing to learn just how much value true biodiesel can add to your diesel engine system- wading through all the info is the challenge (you might want to have a read yourself dobbo).

We have done over 10 different sample batches and have achieved some very promising results- out of the first batch i made i took a sample bottle which now sits on my bedside table........it's pretty exciting really. As i haven't got my 300tdi yet, the test car is my mates 1991 Maverick with an aftermarket turbo and once my mate has finished the cloudpoint and blend tests, the proper road test will begin.

It's interesting to think about how the majority of the complaints that come up about Biodiesel concern money and time. Two of our world's great commodities...........

From our perspective, we are more excited about the environmental benefits of the product than anything else. Sure it will save money BUT the emissions coming out of a biodiesel truck are a fraction of the emissions pumping out of normal diesel vehicles. AND We are using a waste product to make a precious resource- and if it means we "waste" a bit of time doing it, then i'm sure i'll get over the television shows that i'll be missing.

A quote which has been thrown around quite a bit which i think is a Native American Proverb is a relentless reminder for me about where our world is heading.

"Only when the last tree is cut, only when the last river polluted, only when the last fish is caught will they realise that you can't eat money"

It's really hard to cut out everything from life that harms the evironment -i'm sure i'm wearing a dozen things that were not made sustainably and i'm sure this keyboard i'm typing on wasn't made with nature in mind BUT we can make small changes. This attempt at the biodiesel is a good step.

Authentic 4WD enthusiasts know exactly why the environment should be our number one priority- perhaps there is a green light at the end of the petro diesel tunnel :D

I look forward to reading how others are travelling with the Bio revolution.

Cheers

Footprint

PS Dobbo, there are people actually running methane generators from manure so perhaps your horses might come in handy ;)