6 Speed ATF Temperature Sensor Location?

[gavinwibrow]

Does anyone know from where in the 6 speed autobox, the ATF temperature sensor takes its readings?

On our last trip from Perth to Kalbarri, on a cool day and travelling between 80 - 90 kmph towing the 3.5T block of flats, the ATF temp went over 140C as read on the GAP Tool on a few ocassions. On the trip to NT/QLD last year we rarely saw 135C. Car has done 260K km, but box was rebuilt under warranty at 215K km/2017.

According to Ashcrofts in UK, normal operating measurements in the oil pan/sump should be between 77 - 93C with recommended max allowable for short periods eg towing up a steep hill = 135C.

For measurements at the converter outlet to cooler, the allowable temps must be a little higher as the recommended short term max is 149C.

As an aside, Ashcrofts also provide a table of the range of service interval degradation at higher temps eg up to 79C is good for 162,500 km, but if constantly operating at up to 135C ATF should be changed at 5,078 km.

[Pippin]

Does anyone know from where in the 6 speed autobox, the ATF temperature sensor takes its readings?

On our last trip from Perth to Kalbarri, on a cool day and travelling between 80 - 90 kmph towing the 3.5T block of flats, the ATF temp went over 140C as read on the GAP Tool on a few ocassions. On the trip to NT/QLD last year we rarely saw 135C. Car has done 260K km, but box was rebuilt under warranty at 215K km/2017.

According to Ashcrofts in UK, normal operating measurements in the oil pan/sump should be between 77 - 93C with recommended max allowable for short periods eg towing up a steep hill = 135C.

For measurements at the converter outlet to cooler, the allowable temps must be a little higher as the recommended short term max is 149C.

As an aside, Ashcrofts also provide a table of the range of service interval degradation at higher temps eg up to 79C is good for 162,500 km, but if constantly operating at up to 135C ATF should be changed at 5,078 km.Hi Gavin, If its taken from the Auto Box the sensor is in the Valve Body. Nick

[RobMichelle]

Hi, so when I get program from black box solutions for nanocom currently only td5, will I be able to monitor auto temps as well?

[josh.huber]

Does anyone know from where in the 6 speed autobox, the ATF temperature sensor takes its readings?

On our last trip from Perth to Kalbarri, on a cool day and travelling between 80 - 90 kmph towing the 3.5T block of flats, the ATF temp went over 140C as read on the GAP Tool on a few ocassions. On the trip to NT/QLD last year we rarely saw 135C. Car has done 260K km, but box was rebuilt under warranty at 215K km/2017.

According to Ashcrofts in UK, normal operating measurements in the oil pan/sump should be between 77 - 93C with recommended max allowable for short periods eg towing up a steep hill = 135C.

For measurements at the converter outlet to cooler, the allowable temps must be a little higher as the recommended short term max is 149C.

As an aside, Ashcrofts also provide a table of the range of service interval degradation at higher temps eg up to 79C is good for 162,500 km, but if constantly operating at up to 135C ATF should be changed at 5,078 km.

Gav, it's torque converter that makes all the heat, if you see figures like that you can first try sports, or " command shift" to push it into a low gear and give the coverter a break. I've never had to on mine, but boats are friendly to air resistance and mine only weighs 2t. You'll chew more juice but you'll get the heat out. If the sump if the auto is that hot. What's coming out of the coverter is probably 10c hotter minimum. You may need to look into a cooler. I personally havnt seen one for us yet

[gavinwibrow]

Gav, it's torque converter that makes all the heat, if you see figures like that you can first try sports, or " command shift" to push it into a low gear and give the coverter a break. I've never had to on mine, but boats are friendly to air resistance and mine only weighs 2t. You'll chew more juice but you'll get the heat out. If the sump if the auto is that hot. What's coming out of the coverter is probably 10c hotter minimum. You may need to look into a cooler. I personally havnt seen one for us yet

Thanks Josh. Yep, know how to intervene to cool it down, but was interested that it got that warm on a straight, pretty flat road for a first time. Possible warning bells!

Suspect I will be talking soon to DazzaTD5, who has expressed a few indicative thoughts on front mounted cooler/s for the D3/4, especially as they are not required for ordinary operations. Cheers

[josh.huber]

Thanks Josh. Yep, know how to intervene to cool it down, but was interested that it got that warm on a straight, pretty flat road for a first time. Possible warning bells!

Suspect I will be talking soon to DazzaTD5, who has expressed a few indicative thoughts on front mounted cooler/s for the D3/4, especially as they are not required for ordinary operations. Cheers

If the ECM hasn't locked it up it'll do that. You might be just under on throttle or engine load that it's happy to be unlocked. Or potentially the other way round. Your asking a bit too much so it unlocks and let's the converter do it's job rather then change down a gear.
I've never looked but can you see the lockup with your scan tool? If it says locked up and your generating heat I'd be worried. But at the same time zf make great boxes and would likely give you a speed mismatch error. I love your pro active approach . At those temps your giving your engine cooling system a harder job then it wants.

I'd watch the scan tool while driving to see if a minor input from you can help out. Maybe 5kph faster and it'll lock up?

[discorevy]

As above ,temp sensor is in the valve body and from memory at those speeds with load, torque converter won't be locked if you're in drive .
On your gap tool you can see the state of the converter, it will go from open , regulated , to closed ( locked ).
Try to keep it closed ( even regulated will generate less heat than open).
Finally , it's definitely worth changing the oil and filter with a rebuilt box as there may be enough blockage in the filter to restrict some flow causing more heat.

[gavinwibrow]

As above ,temp sensor is in the valve body and from memory at those speeds with load, torque converter won't be locked if you're in drive .
On your gap tool you can see the state of the converter, it will go from open , regulated , to closed ( locked ).
Try to keep it closed ( even regulated will generate less heat than open).
Finally , it's definitely worth changing the oil and filter with a rebuilt box as there may be enough blockage in the filter to restrict some flow causing more heat.

Cheers Craig, and will do another ATF change, although its only been 10K km and last October since the last ATF change, with a double flush 21K before that (prior to the Qld/NT trip mid last year).
Will probably basically leave it in 5th for the return trip, and see what differences occur.

[DiscoJeffster]

As above ,temp sensor is in the valve body and from memory at those speeds with load, torque converter won't be locked if you're in drive .
On your gap tool you can see the state of the converter, it will go from open , regulated , to closed ( locked ).
Try to keep it closed ( even regulated will generate less heat than open).
Finally , it's definitely worth changing the oil and filter with a rebuilt box as there may be enough blockage in the filter to restrict some flow causing more heat.

Doesn’t seem to be available on the 3L 6hp28 box with gap tool. I’ve looked at every message on the box on the topics of “converter”, “torque” etc but there is no simple view of the torque converter.

[discorevy]

Doesn’t seem to be available on the 3L 6hp28 box with gap tool. I’ve looked at every message on the box on the topics of “converter”, “torque” etc but there is no simple view of the torque converter.


so >live values> transmission , should be option for torque converter status .

[DiscoJeffster]

so >live values> transmission , should be option for torque converter status .

Nope. Used search for anything torque or converter. Nothing as simple as that. There are some that show numerical values of no meaning but no torque converter status (on mine at least).

I assume you’re the 6HP26 box not 28?

[discorevy]

Nope. Used search for anything torque or converter. Nothing as simple as that. There are some that show numerical values of no meaning but no torque converter status (on mine at least).

I assume you’re the 6HP26 box not 28?


The last 2 vehicles I've had reason to check have been the hp26 , but I have a 28 coming in next week , I'll check, but it lists it as a function for all 6 hp's on the gap product page , not for the 8 speeds though.

[discorevy]

Car has done 260K km, but box was rebuilt under warranty at 215K km/2017.




If the box was rebuilt and not just the valve body , there's a possibility some fine clutch material could be blocking the cooler matrix.
I guess you could have also been punching in to a head wind at the time without locked coverter.

[101RRS]

Is this such an issue as the ECU system in the car will tell you if the ECUs think the oil is getting too hot? Doesn't the system shut the car down with a display on the dash if things get too hot. It has safety margins built in.

Garry

[DiscoDB]

Is this such an issue as the ECU system in the car will tell you if the ECUs think the oil is getting too hot? Doesn't the system shut the car down with a display on the dash if things get too hot. It has safety margins built in.

Garry

It is good the ECU does adopt a cooling strategy when the transmission gets hot and for rare instances would be adequate, but it kicks in at a pretty high temperature in my opinion. Looks to be more about preventing a catastrophic failure rather than being good for long life (what ever that means for LR).

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200601/58b32cfaa836dd2b57850e2c89659fb5.jpg

[gavinwibrow]

If the box was rebuilt and not just the valve body , there's a possibility some fine clutch material could be blocking the cooler matrix.
I guess you could have also been punching in to a head wind at the time without locked coverter.

1 - Don't forget 215K km / 2017 transmission rebuild, then double ATF change at 232K km/June 19, and then a single change at 253K km / Oct 19. That many changes should provide pretty fair flushing surely? Then again we are talking LR[bigwhistle]

2 - Nope - pretty flat on from Perth via Indian Ocean Drive and then on to Geraldton and Kalbarri, (Geraldton to Northampton area hilly for 60 km then flattening out again). No wind to speak of. Hence my concern that something may have changed since the Qld/NT trip last year?

[gavinwibrow]

Is this such an issue as the ECU system in the car will tell you if the ECUs think the oil is getting too hot? Doesn't the system shut the car down with a display on the dash if things get too hot. It has safety margins built in.

Garry

Partially correct - I did get one gearbox warning which I think drops the trans into 4th/5th as the revs go up. Stopped car, turn off ignition, restart, all good. I did note that before I stopped, the revs would drop to idle on a trailing throttle at speed on a downhill slope.

I had a couple of similar earlier warnings on the Qld trip whilst leaving the car in cruise up slight inclines - yes I should have known better, but did some long slow days on pretty flat ground out west. I reported them on here at the time, but got very little if any response as I recall.

[gavinwibrow]

It is good the ECU does adopt a cooling strategy when the transmission gets hot and for rare instances would be adequate, but it kicks in at a pretty high temperature in my opinion. Looks to be more about preventing a catastrophic failure rather than being good for long life (what ever that means for LR).

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200601/58b32cfaa836dd2b57850e2c89659fb5.jpg



Not consistent with my car as subsequently described above/below depending on how you set up chronologically.

No response until about 140C (according to GAP Tool) at which point I'm getting concerned), then drops to lower gear/higher revs with then a yellow triangle warning, requiring ignition off/restart - which in turn provides an interim cooling off.

[DiscoDB]

Not consistent with my car as subsequently described above/below depending on how you set up chronologically.

No response until about 140C (according to GAP Tool) at which point I'm getting concerned), then drops to lower gear/higher revs with then a yellow triangle warning, requiring ignition off/restart - which in turn provides an interim cooling off.

That is interesting. The above extract was the training material from 2004 prior to release, so maybe they revised the software to allow for even higher running temps. Which would be a worry but not surprising when at the time LR also considered it was OK to never need to change the transmission fluid either.

Even the engine runs warmer than I would like, and I would hate to think what EGT the TDV6 generates under high load.

Should be easy to fit an external transmission cooler - it was a common kit for the Falcon’s and the piping changes to 1/2 inch hose just before the radiator. I know most don’t think this is required with the D3/4 but if I was doing a lot of towing I would want to keep oil temps below 100 degC.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Not consistent with my car as subsequently described above/below depending on how you set up chronologically.

No response until about 140C (according to GAP Tool) at which point I'm getting concerned), then drops to lower gear/higher revs with then a yellow triangle warning, requiring ignition off/restart - which in turn provides an interim cooling off.
Interesting reading Gavin, you did mention when we spoke thst you wanted an aux cooler as the engine /transmission ran hotter than you believe is cortect. Im sure you will have investigated the obvious re engine in terms of coolant correct SG and coolsnt to demin water ratio etc. I also wonder if theres maybe an airflow restriction to the transmission oil cooler mounted under / in front of the engine..

[gavinwibrow]

That is interesting. The above extract was the training material from 2004 prior to release, so maybe they revised the software to allow for even higher running temps. Which would be a worry but not surprising when at the time LR also considered it was OK to never need to change the transmission fluid either.

Even the engine runs warmer than I would like, and I would hate to think what EGT the TDV6 generates under high load.

Should be easy to fit an external transmission cooler - it was a common kit for the Falcon’s and the piping changes to 1/2 inch hose just before the radiator. I know most don’t think this is required with the D3/4 but if I was doing a lot of towing I would want to keep oil temps below 100 degC.


Ta, and I concur - don't like the higher temps at all.
I have an EGT gauge fitted to my 2.7, but can't remember exactly where the sensor is (was done by DazzaTD5, and I think somewhere near the egr gear from memory?), but definitely runs cooler than my previous D2a and I've yet to see over 600C pulling the van, whereas the D2a would want to get above 700 towing the block of flats on a steep hill if I wasn't vigilant. Normal D4 heavy towing on the flat about 500 - 550C.
Coolant temp without towing normally in the order of 90C, and when towing coolant can get a couple of degrees over 100 - and engine oil temp occasionally as high as 135.

[gavinwibrow]

Interesting reading Gavin, you did mention when we spoke thst you wanted an aux cooler as the engine /transmission ran hotter than you believe is cortect. Im sure you will have investigated the obvious re engine in terms of coolant correct SG and coolsnt to demin water ratio etc. I also wonder if theres maybe an airflow restriction to the transmission oil cooler mounted under / in front of the engine..

Definitely feel a need for some detailed investigations coming on after I get back home next week.[bawl]

[DiscoDB]

Ta, and I concur - don't like the higher temps at all.
I have an EGT gauge fitted to my 2.7, but can't remember exactly where the sensor is (was done by DazzaTD5, and I think somewhere near the egr gear from memory?), but definitely runs cooler than my previous D2a and I've yet to see over 600C pulling the van, whereas the D2a would want to get above 700 towing the block of flats on a steep hill if I wasn't vigilant. Normal D4 heavy towing on the flat about 500 - 550C.
Coolant temp without towing normally in the order of 90C, and when towing coolant can get a couple of degrees over 100 - and engine oil temp occasionally as high as 135.

Do you know if your EGT cooler was also removed?

If your EGT cooler has been removed then the probe could be at the back of the manifold where the EGT cooler would normally connect to the manifold. This would give a good reading as it picks up the exhaust outlet direct from 3 cylinders.

But if the probe is after the cooler and fitted where the blanking plates normally go, then it would be reading lower than the real value as the exhaust gas has been cooled at this point.

Would be good to confirm with Dazza where the probe is just so you know it is showing a real value seen by the turbo.

Edit: if you pull the engine cover off, should be easy to spot the EGT probe.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Gavin,

What tyre pressures do you run on the car and van when towing? Has the van had a wheel alignment? Incorrect or uneven pressures and alignment add a truck load of drag, making the engine work even harder.

Just a thought

[discorevy]

Do you know if your EGT cooler was also removed?

If your EGT cooler has been removed then the probe could be at the back of the manifold where the EGT cooler would normally connect to the manifold. This would give a good reading as it picks up the exhaust outlet direct from 3 cylinders.

But if the probe is after the cooler and fitted where the blanking plates normally go, then it would be reading lower than the real value as the exhaust gas has been cooled at this point.

Would be good to confirm with Dazza where the probe is just so you know it is showing a real value seen by the turbo.

Edit: if you pull the engine cover off, should be easy to spot the EGT probe.

Gavins probe is at the back of the RH manifold , at the outlet to cooler , using a modified D2 EGR blank plate
so yes , getting reading from 3 cylinders.

The LH manifold doesn't have enough clearance for a probe due to the turbo

Cooler is still in place

[josh.huber]

Partially correct - I did get one gearbox warning which I think drops the trans into 4th/5th as the revs go up. Stopped car, turn off ignition, restart, all good. I did note that before I stopped, the revs would drop to idle on a trailing throttle at speed on a downhill slope.

I had a couple of similar earlier warnings on the Qld trip whilst leaving the car in cruise up slight inclines - yes I should have known better, but did some long slow days on pretty flat ground out west. I reported them on here at the time, but got very little if any response as I recall.

Hey mate, in the case of an over heat, the best thing to do is knock it back a few and put the revs through the roof, that gives lower engine requirement, max water pump and engine fan speed. Plus the torque converter even without lockup is virtually locked and stops generating heat, it also is pumping more through the cooler..

This method only works if you don't have a blown hose or other mechanical issue.
Or pull over and do the same in neutral. But with less revs, say 2000 rpm

[josh.huber]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200602/152e29dcc485654799cd33a4f52562ed.jpg

The lack of torque converter status reported by discojeffster was bothering me, even thou I've never looked for it. I would like it to be there when I would like it. My Gap tool showed some values labelled as converter etc, but when selected all showed N/A I had the idea to use the turbine speed and the engine speed. The screen shot shows me sitting still. While driving you get good figures in each page. Not as good as converter status. But still it's some information. Maybe if you had it on a graph with the same timeline it would be better visually? I'm not sure if you can do that. I have not tried yet.
There are also solenoid values in the tool. I might look at the manual and work out which one controls the TC and see if it can be monitored.

[gavinwibrow]

Gavin,

What tyre pressures do you run on the car and van when towing? Has the van had a wheel alignment? Incorrect or uneven pressures and alignment add a truck load of drag, making the engine work even harder.

Just a thought

Hi Eric, car tyres on 36 front and around 42 rears, van all 45, wheel alignment done about 100 km/6 months ago prior to this trip for the van after scrubbing a tyre on the Qld/NT trip, and the car was done about the same time by the Osborne Park gurus after virtually wiping out a new 697 on the latter part of the big trip. I have no idea how the alignment issues arose (basically in NT and WA on the way home). Normally drive very carefully and definitely didn't hit any kerbs or similar. Never had anything like this happen before in 50+ years of driving on a HC licence.

[gavinwibrow]

Hey mate, in the case of an over heat, the best thing to do is knock it back a few and put the revs through the roof, that gives lower engine requirement, max water pump and engine fan speed. Plus the torque converter even without lockup is virtually locked and stops generating heat, it also is pumping more through the cooler..

This method only works if you don't have a blown hose or other mechanical issue.
Or pull over and do the same in neutral. But with less revs, say 2000 rpm



Yep, standard procedure carried over from experiences with the D2.