Who distributes the best diesel fuel?

[dhumphri]

Just wondering if anyone has found big differences between diesel fuels that the main sellers distribute. (ie is shell better than BP etc and why).

Am running a TD5 so would be interested in any personal experiences relating to this engine. Regards Daz

[DEFENDERZOOK]

i have found that most of the no-name type servos.....the cheap fuel places......
have mainly bio-diesel.......


and i recently heard that shell is a no-no when it comes to fuel.....
and i think caltex was the other no-no......


BP is supposed to be ok i think......

[George130]

Used to use shell whenever possible. Now I don't have my shell card I have been using BP and caltex. It was this forum that raised the shell no no.

[drivesafe]

I only use Shell or BP and haven’t had a problem.

Caltex / Ampol / Woolworths are third world rated and although the quality of diesel was supposed comply to higher minimum quality standards by late last year, Caltex, for what ever reason, has managed to get an extension to when it has to comply.

BP guarantees the quality of it’s fuel at the bowser while I believe Shell only guarantees the quality when it leaves the refinery, as to what effect that has on their fuel at the bowser, I don’t know.

At around $15,000 to replace the donk in the RR, I'll pass on the Bio mix.

Cheers.

[rick130]

On their published specs, BP has the best cetane (ignitability) numbers, (51) closely followed by Shell, (49) then Caltex/Woolworths (46).
Drivesafe, are you sure regarding Caltex and "third world rated" ? There was a question mark a few years back before the Caltex/Woolies tie up as Woolies werer importing bulk diesel from wherever they could get it, but surely that's well past as they are all supposed to comply with the latest Aus Standard which is based on the Euro spec (although the Euro spec is a 51 Cetane minimum, which it seeems only BP meets) as well as the 50ppm maximum sulphur and lcertain lubricity levels.
Don't know Mobils' spec, they don't publish one, although the only time I've used it, about 4 weeks ago the Tdi really liked it.

[jase]

what area / state you live in depends on where your fuel comes from NOT the signs on the bowsers
In melb (& sorrounds) for example BP no longer have a refinery and all BP fuels comes from mobil refinary
I haven't checked lately but last year Mobil and BP were the only Majors to have low sulpher
Woolworths no longer import bulk fuel its 99% caltex
others (independants) do import bulk fuel but also do buy off the majors
& some fuel is also blended (ethonol ect) in backyards
Personally I use BP / mobil around home and stick to majors when away, Unless you know where your indepenant get his fuel (and some buy loads where ever they are going cheap not always from the same place) then its best to avoid them IMO

Jase
FYI
Biodiesel (if made correctly & on spec) is waaaay better in may regards than dino (petroleum) diesel.
Cleaner
NO sulpher,
better lubrication ect ect
But also depends what base stock they use canola being one of the best but makes bio around $1/ltr to produce compared to tallows ect at $0.90/ltr so again you need to do homework on what they are using Most bio refinarys have stocks of mny grades from 100% canola blends to 100% crap blend and its up to the purcahser what the get, many buy the cheapest (= biggest profit) so get 10% canola 90% crap

[PeterM]

We've got a VW Golf tdi and BP is the fuel that VW recommends for use followed by Shell.

[drivesafe]

A good mate of mine is right into Audis and VWs and was the owner of a Rangy for a good few years.

He’s got a TT now and is a fanatic about looking after it, as such he and most of the Audi owners he hangs around with seem to have lots of time on their hands ( obviously unlike Landy owners ) and they spend their time look up info about every aspect relating to their vehicles.

He put me onto BP / Shell / Mobil fuels years ago and keeps me up to date on what's what in that and a number of other areas.

One of the many sites where he frequents had some details of the current state of play regarding fuel quality in Australia. I find out where the data is an post a link if it’s relevant.

As posted, I only use BP and Shell. I stopped using Mobil after filled up at a Mobil servo where I put 104 litres in my tank, which still had at least 10 litres in it. Not bad for a 100 lt tank and when I raised this discrepancy with Mobil, they didn’t seem to think it was much of a problem.

Cheers


PS. Off subject a bit but to give you an idea of how fanatical these guys are about their cars, you know how the wives get together and have things like Tupperware parties, well these fanatics have things like car cleaning product seminars.

They meet at some workshop and arrange for a car care specialist to come along and show them all the latest cleaning aids and polishes and the correct way to use them, they find out about things like the 37 different shaped wheel cleaning brushes.

Shouldn’t knock, he’s put me onto some great polishes and the likes.

[discowhite]

on my recent trip to QLD and back i tested this theroy out.
im now parranoid about crappy quality/bio fuels. basically the clearer
the diesal the better it should be!
well i can tell you that only the top brand stations fuel out of the bowsers
was clear! every time i stoped to fill up i put a bit in a clear plastic cup to have a look, the ones that were clear i used, the ones that wernt i went else where. what i did also find was that BP dose have very clear fuel but they WERE 2-4c more expensive than the others. which was a problem because there are a lot of BP's

i tried to run my td5 90 on bio and accidently mixed bio and its crap for
td5's! dont notice it around town as much as the open roads. lack of power and fuel consumption goes through the roof!


cheers phil.

[drivesafe]

Hi discowhite, I use to fill up my D1 with the cheapest fuel I could find and I was also running fuel treatment in my fuel.

Still had to get the injectors serviced about every 100,000 kms or so, to stop the TDi smoking.

I’ve just just clocked up 150,000 kms in the Range Rover. The only time it smokes and has always done it, is for a split second when I floor it. Never run anything but BP / Shell and for the first year or so, Mobil. I have never put injector cleaners in the fuel and don’t need the injector serviced yet.

Yes, the better quality fuel is dearer but you save heaps more on much reduced servicing cost.

Cheers

[solmanic]

what area / state you live in depends on where your fuel comes from NOT the signs on the bowsers


You're dead right. In Brisbane we only have a BP and Caltex refinery - so pretty much everywhere is one or the other. I have been using Woolworths/Caltex in my TD5 since shopper dockets came in with no problems. The fuel discount scheme also came in around the same time as BPs low-sulphur diesel scare with many reported engine failures which drove me away from BP. I don't know what the deal is with proprietary brand fuels such as premium unleaded whether they are also just re-branded by the distributors or are brought in from wherever.

I am fllowing the bio-diesel thread now as the idea of "homebrewing" with complete control over the content and quality (and cost) appeals to me.

[solmanic]

i tried to run my td5 90 on bio and accidently mixed bio and its crap for
td5's! dont notice it around town as much as the open roads. lack of power and fuel consumption goes through the roof!


That's interesting - it further encourages me to homebrew for pootling around town and revert to petro-diesel on the road when I have no alternative anyway. Another smart idea someone had was to run two tanks - one for bio and the other for petro and switch between the two depending on the conditions.

[Bushie]

I only use Shell or BP and haven’t had a problem.

Caltex / Ampol / Woolworths are third world rated and although the quality of diesel was supposed comply to higher minimum quality standards by late last year, Caltex, for what ever reason, has managed to get an extension to when it has to comply.
Cheers.
Caltex Kurnell refinery (NSW) had a 6 month extension for the cleaner fuel requirements the refinery went into full production last week (as far as I know) after a $500 million refit. At one stage there was talk of them closing the refinery and importing all fuel.

Generally I fill with Shell or BP but will use any of the major players especially if they appear to have a high throughput.


Martyn

[George130]

Throughput is the big thing. If the servo has high turnover especially with trucks then there is a much lower chance of water in the diesel.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

water isnt the problem any more....

its the quality of fuel that suffers....all the crappy additives they put in....
the ones they should put in but dont......and bio diesel.....

you no longer know what you are buying when it comes to fuel.....
and with the latest spec european engines which are fussier than my wife.....
you need to be really careful as no one will foot the blame or the bill for any damage
caused by inferior grade fuels.....

[tombraider]

That's interesting - it further encourages me to homebrew for pootling around town and revert to petro-diesel on the road when I have no alternative anyway. Another smart idea someone had was to run two tanks - one for bio and the other for petro and switch between the two depending on the conditions.

Do NOT do it..... :eek:

LR specifically states the TD5 is NOT biodiesel compatible.
This was confirmed by several LR companies, and several UK companies too.

Your talking cubic dollars if it goes POP:o so there is no savings to be made running this stuff.

Oh and I have several reasons for it. One of which is the TD5 uses a synthetic fuel line, without proper testing theres no way to be certain that the material is compatible, nor is there a way of testing ALL the seals on the engine/fuel pump etc...

Your talking pitiful economy in a TD5 on Bio vs Good economy on the Dino Diesel. For what equates to less than a $1.00 per 100/km I wouldnt even consider the risk.

Cheers
Tombraider

[DEFENDERZOOK]

i was thinking along the same lines as tombraider.......
but unforunately....i have been using bio diesel on some fills due to not knowing....
it had not been labelled anywhere as bio and then when getting hungry from the
fish and chip smell coming out the back do you realize what you are running on......


i dont always have time to analize the fuel before i pump it in as i am always running late
for things so just quickly pull in to a servo and fill up......

how do you avoid these situations.....?
how do you know you have never used bio diesel or a blend without your knowledge........?

[solmanic]

I know this is crossing threads, but I need to follow this up here...


Do NOT do it..... :eek:

LR specifically states the TD5 is NOT biodiesel compatible.
This was confirmed by several LR companies, and several UK companies too.

Do they have case studies of failures or is this just to scare people off trying and stuffing them around with problematic warranty claims? I would like to know more - seriously!

This is certainly getting very confusing - there are quite clearly two schools of thought. People who are/have used biodiesel and swear by it, and people who warn against it. Surely there must be some definitive and impartial information source which has the fuels tested for each type of engine. The April 2005 issue of Overlander (which BTW comes bundled with the current June 06 issue) has an articel with with a case study on a TD5 running B100 (P112).

Of course I can understand manufacturers opting NOT to warrant bio-fuels (especially home grown ones) as it is just making their lives harder if they do and an engine cracks up. I come back to my point that homebrewing would seem to give you MORE quality control (and if you stuff it up then there's only yourself to blame).

Since this is clearly a bio-fuels topic we have strayed onto we should migrate to that thread.

[drivesafe]

Hi solmanic, I think this thread is about bio fuels at the bowser and so far, no one has convinced me that this stuff is suitable for newer high speed diesel engines and note, I’m not saying it will definitely harm them, there is just not enough assurance being given, either here or at servos that stock the stuff that, at this point in time, that would have me risking damaging a motor for the sake of a few cents.

Just not common sense.

Cheers

[Mulgo]

The last five times I got my filled up my Td5 at the cheap petrol station on King Georges Rd in South Hurstville (NSW) just opposite the McD.
Going through my records I discovered that the with the last two tankfillings I used exactly 1lt more per 100kms.
I now saw that they put up a small note on the pump that they are actually blending their diesel with a 'percentage' (not specified) of BioDiesel (mentioning Aussie standards). I asked at the counter about the percentage, but got only a blank face as an answer...

As I have not seen this small note previously I just think that this additional 1lt per 100kms might be due to the Bio.:mad:

Cheers,
Daniel

[Captain_Rightfoot]

The last five times I got my filled up my Td5 at the cheap petrol station on King Georges Rd in South Hurstville (NSW) just opposite the McD.
Going through my records I discovered that the with the last two tankfillings I used exactly 1lt more per 100kms.
I now saw that they put up a small note on the pump that they are actually blending their diesel with a 'percentage' (not specified) of BioDiesel (mentioning Aussie standards). I asked at the counter about the percentage, but got only a blank face as an answer...

As I have not seen this small note previously I just think that this additional 1lt per 100kms might be due to the Bio.:mad:

Cheers,
Daniel
So it was probably 10% more expensive than the cheap fuel appeared :(

[bluetongue]

I've said it before on other threads and I'll say it again.

I've spent over 2600 bucks this year to replace 2 fuel pumps in my 2000 model TD5 110 defender extreme.

Both times was because I had crud fuel. The second time it happened I was not prepared and I saw the bits of crud in the bottom of the fuel pump. I know for sure I only filled up a max 4 times from when I fitted the previous pump and only from 2 servos - Caltex (Woolies) and Shell - big name flash joints in my local area.

These days I only fill up at BP, and for the moment unless I get stuck out-of-town, only at a BP servo in the back-streets of Milperra.

I get those guys to fill out a manual receipt for me each time I fill up.

I don't care if the fuel price is 2c or 10c more than another servo down the road. Fuel consumption is irrelevant when you add on top 2600+ bucks worth of repairs.

Another thing. The mechanics told me explicitly - do not use bio fuel !!!

I don't want to spend another 1300+ bucks to replace another fuel pump.

If it does fail again. I have my little black booklet of receipts and I will be knocking on someones door.

That's my story.
Good luck guys, whatever you choose.
I hope it doesn't happen to anyone else.
:cool:

Cheers,
Scott

[PCH]

So I didn't read yet which company has the best quality fuel.

I've only filled up at Mobil and occassionally at Shell for diesel. Shell rip you off with the shopper dockets and this forced me to Mobil.

I find no difference in performance or economy with either. So far no engine or fuel problems yet with 28,000km on the D3. I don't use BP becasue in the past with their premium unleaded I always got worse fuel economy when compared to Mobil 8000 or Shell Optimax so I assumed BP diesel would be the same.

So who can actually state that BP will give you better economy than Shell or Mobil?

Chris

[Captain_Rightfoot]

So I didn't read yet which company has the best quality fuel.

I've only filled up at Mobil and occassionally at Shell for diesel. Shell rip you off with the shopper dockets and this forced me to Mobil.

I find no difference in performance or economy with either. So far no engine or fuel problems yet with 28,000km on the D3. I don't use BP becasue in the past with their premium unleaded I always got worse fuel economy when compared to Mobil 8000 or Shell Optimax so I assumed BP diesel would be the same.

So who can actually state that BP will give you better economy than Shell or Mobil?

Chris
I'm sorry... but I don't think you're going to get a definitive answer on this :( :(

[DRanged]

What a can of worms! Basically I put all sorts in our Isuzu rangie no problems. I think there is still a place in this world for old technology diesels?????????

[Cruiser]

I now ask for a receipt at every servo (Proof of purchase) just incase I get bad fuel.

[bluetongue]

So I didn't read yet which company has the best quality fuel.

I've only filled up at Mobil and occassionally at Shell for diesel. Shell rip you off with the shopper dockets and this forced me to Mobil.

I find no difference in performance or economy with either. So far no engine or fuel problems yet with 28,000km on the D3. I don't use BP becasue in the past with their premium unleaded I always got worse fuel economy when compared to Mobil 8000 or Shell Optimax so I assumed BP diesel would be the same.

So who can actually state that BP will give you better economy than Shell or Mobil?

Chris

From my point of view, based on bad luck at the bowser, it's not a point of getting better economy, but more a case of getting better quality.

From the other points so far in this thread (and others) regardless of my bad luck... it seems BP provides the best quality.

But, it sounds as though it could depend on where you are in the country... and if it turned out there was a problem with bad quality fuel, it depends if you can force BP to pay for any repairs caused by bad fuel.

BP seem at least like the best from a bad bunch.

Scott

[George130]

Being a lease I alway get a receipt and log it. I aso get a summary from the lease company.

[weeds]

a mate of mine is an operator at the bp refinery in brisbane i.e. makes the fuel, i ask him which is the best fuel and this was his response, i'm guessing we could have better fuel if the governemnt spec was increase, probably cost more though

I’d like to say we make the best but the fact is it is all made to a government spec. BP Brisbane are the only ones in Australia that have a HydroCracker which makes the 50ppm diesel. It also makes cleaner diesel but again we only run the Cracker as hard as we need to to get to the government spec.

[FenianEel]

I have filled up everywhere with everyone, and there are differences occassionally, and some are even nice enough to have water in there:mad:
(not to Steinzys extent).

BP seem pretty good, although there aren't a lot around Brissy.
I have lesser things to say about others.....
But my question with BP is though, why did they stop selling these things.........

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2006/06/96.jpg

[bluetongue]

I have filled up everywhere with everyone, and there are differences occassionally, and some are even nice enough to have water in there:mad:
(not to Steinzys extent).

BP seem pretty good, although there aren't a lot around Brissy.
I have lesser things to say about others.....
But my question with BP is though, why did they stop selling these things.........

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/images/imported/2006/06/96.jpg

I don't know why... but that post is very very funny :lol: :lol: :cool:

[bopeep]

I own a servo in nth nsw we have neumanns fuel.....recently we got a random visit from the commonwealth fuel inspectors who took samples from all our tanks but wasnt going to take a deisel sample. when I asked him why he told me that there are no specifications for what should be in diesel fuel so they had nothing to compare my fuel sample or other deisel fuel samples against. Interesting, (well i thought so)

[Captain_Rightfoot]

I definately can't afford to use cheap fuel :O

So, I mainly use BP CALTEX or SHELL (In order of prefference). In terms of performance I haven't noted any difference, but I am now recording brand as well as all the usual details each fill.

I think our fender is using a little less on BP than the other brands. I need more fills to tell though. :)

[billnjim]

i always put mooreys? diesel additives ( the one in the green bottle ) into my tank everytime i fill up; this is a procedure i have followed since buying the landy and has always been added to it ( the previous owner did it from new & threw in a couple of bottles when i bought it); even though i do this i still noticed how diffferent servo's tend to not to give the same milage; now to throw a spanner in the works, i use to always go to shell in morley(wa) but now only fill up at shell middle swan(wa) as for reasons i cant explain i seem to get an extra 80 odd km out of it, these are both shell servo's with the only difference being that middle swan is used by alot of trucks compared to morley. when travelling i use whatever i can get my hands on but ALWAYS add mooreys to it.

[disconut]

Informative link.

http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/diesel_fuel_additives.htm

Trev.

[waynep]

i always put mooreys? diesel additives ( the one in the green bottle ) into my tank everytime i fill up; this is a procedure i have followed since buying the landy and has always been added to it ( the previous owner did it from new & threw in a couple of bottles when i bought it); even though i do this i still noticed how diffferent servo's tend to not to give the same milage; now to throw a spanner in the works, i use to always go to shell in morley(wa) but now only fill up at shell middle swan(wa) as for reasons i cant explain i seem to get an extra 80 odd km out of it, these are both shell servo's with the only difference being that middle swan is used by alot of trucks compared to morley. when travelling i use whatever i can get my hands on but ALWAYS add mooreys to it.

I have been using only BP plus adding Morey's each fill too and I am sure there is a noticaeble imrpovement in both performance and fuel economy.

[Michael2]

I've only had my 300Tdi Defender for a couple of months (113,000k on it). It's got a 156 litre tank, so I'm only on my second tank of fuel. The first tank was BP and it was great. The 2nd tank I put Shell (got sucked in by a discount docket - never again) and I found that on start up I get a small puff of smoke that I didn't get with the BP fuel. It never smokes otherwise.

I've determined to stay with BP and have applied for the BP-Citibank credit card, which will give me 5% off the price of fuel (or any BP product). I'll just use this as a fuel card, but there's a 7cent per litre discount for starters, plus they promise $50 off the first tankful as a reward. :):):)

A friend with a TD5 DII has run a few tanks of biodiesel on long trips and he reported quieter running and better economy on the bio diesel - not what I expected to hear.

[bluetongue]

BP is for sure the best at the moment....

[rick130]

Informative link.

http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/diesel_fuel_additives.htm

Trev.
Trev, FWIW, the bloke that I'm currently working with to interpret my oil analysis results recommends this stuff http://www.lubecontrol.com/fuel.htm for diesel. He reckons it's the only stuff he's seen that lubricates and improves combustion in a diesel. He said the Redline RL2 I use will lubricate OK, but it isn't as effective as FP60 overall.
One of his first comments to me was "It's a shame you can't get FP60 in Australia."
He claims the the only two fuel additives that really work are Techron (for Petrol) and FP60 (Petrol/diesel) He says the chemistry on the Fuel Power is that good. He was hired by the company to do independent testing against all the other fuel adds in the US, but is no longer on retainer and doesn't like the current management, but praises the product.
I've stopped using BP DieselGo, which I've been using for a month (ran out of RL2) until we can pin down odd oil test results in both vehicles, which so far are pointing to the BP fuel additive causing reactivity in the crankcase.
Regardless, I'm going to try and import some FP60.

[disconut]

Thanks Rick. I have always been concerned that adding too much, (overdosing), can also ruin components. So I only add RL every 3 or 4 tankfuls. (More for bug control than anything else). I have the magnetic filter fitted for a trial, have no idea if it works until I change out the fuel filter.

Trev.

[rick130]

I've always used the RL2 at almost double the recommended maintenance dose in almost every tank on both vehicles and you cannot see it at all in a UOA, yet with a months use of DieselGo at the recommended maintenance dose, silicon has quadrupled and sodium doubled in both vehicles, and this has impacted on other wear metals. It seems too much of a coincidence. We've ruled out dust ingestion, and the balance of increased numbers points to chemical corrosion, although to rule out bottling contamination (this can happen !) I've sent away a virgin sample of oil from the same batch.

[Bigbjorn]

Throughput is the big thing. If the servo has high turnover especially with trucks then there is a much lower chance of water in the diesel.

I have a close friend who was a sales & technical rep. for Donaldson/Duralife. This guy used to set up stands at a lot of country shows. He said that no matter where, he would always get several enquiries at any show along the lines of "What can you do about dirty fuel." Usually from cockies with bulk fuel storage, not drums. It appears that they got a lot of grot and water, whether the stuff came with the delivery, or related to their storage installations and practices was not clear. He used to set them up with Raycor filter/separators. This was my first contact with the product and Raycors are bloody good. They combine filtration with a cyclonic separator section. Don't think they are still sold by Duralife outlets though.

[rick130]

Brian, I think Racor are a part of Parker these days, who are opposition to Donaldson.

[Bigbjorn]

Brian, I think Racor are a part of Parker these days, who are opposition to Donaldson.

You are right., They were a unit of Parker or Parker-Hannifin. They used to be sold through the Duralife (Donaldson) outlets, but I haven't needed one for a while so have not kept up with changes in distribution.

[tempestv8]

It's been 3 years now since this thread was started.... Now that there's collectively more diesel consumed, has there been any change to the thoughts that you may have re the best supplier of diesel in Australia?

Is BP still the better diesel, or is that a by product of their marketing capabilities around the BP Ultimate diesel? i.e. Has perception become reality?

:)

[Fluids]

Well, since I've owned my D2a (6 months), my mechanic friend has warned me off about buying diesel at the local BP (2 doors down the street!) ... it may be more the servo & not the "BP" thing as he says he's had lots of trouble with locals diesels who fill up there (crap fuel as he says), so I buy from a local independant 6km down the road, who's consistantly cheaper (by up to 6 or 7c per litre). They say their diesel is from Shell. Looks green/milky green (weird colour) and out of 21 fills, 17 have been there ... the other 4 were from a Mobil 20km down the road (which I bought diesel at on Sat' night and it looks the same colour as from the independants does!)

That said, have never had any issues with diesel from either supplier. Don't notice any difference between the independant and when I've filled at the Mobil. Fuel economy is good as far as I'm concerned (30mpg highway / 23mpg towing 2T) , and the Td5 runs sweet. I use a dose of Chemtech every 3 tanks or so and have done since owning the D2a ...

Dad will ONLY buy diesel from truck stops where the big trucks are always seen filling up ... using the high flow bowsers, and he fills from those bowsers ... he's not brand fussy, and has never had an issue (Rodeo/Isuzu 2.8TD for 17yrs and now an Isuzu D-Max 3.0TDi).

Kev..

[Yorkie]

you will find with the exception of the bio-diesel sold by some independants the majority of the fuel sold in Aus is same specifications.
also shell servos maybe selling bp product or mobil, etc as it depends on what storage is in the local area.
currently the main requirement is 10ppm for sulphur content which is very high in quality to some other countries.

cheers
yorkie :)

[tempestv8]

I'm beginning to think that it's too hard to generalise which fuel vendor is THE right choice because it is different from state to state.

Caltex Diesel in VIC comes from the Shell refinery, and this is not the case in QLD based on what I've read on this thread.

Because Shell in Victoria supplies diesel to Caltex/Woolworths, the fuel from Caltex/Woolworths has the same characteristic bright yellow/green luminesence in the colour of the fuel.

So, in Victoria, users should find that Shell diesel and Caltex diesel to be exactly the same.

[disco gazza]

Since owning my disco tdi,I've always filled up at servo's that I know have a high volumn.The caltex down the road is also a distribution point for the smaller companys around the area,but I dont fill up there all that often-I seem to get 50-100k's less per tank that either mobil or woolies down the road.
At the moment I'm using mobil to fill up and I'm getting around 1200k's per tank(110lt s)

cheers
disco gazza
92 disco tdi :D