TD5 Starting issues......posting after going through other threads

[ThorneGator]

G'Day all,

Been using the other "searched" threads as a guide to check all the common issues....but running low on next steps.

At first, the car (2005 110 TD5) would start but run very rough as the fuel pump kept cutting out; I could hear the clicking of the relay(s) over and over coinciding with the cut-out of the fuel pump.
Then gradually it became harder and harder to get the car started:
- No glow plug light
- No engine light
- no fuel pump running
- just engine turning over

What I have done/ measuerd:
- Battery 12.6V/ 12.2V under load
- Measured V from battery through relays: 11.8V at all points (beginning of fuse feed> all fuses> 30 (main) & 85 (signal in) of relays)
- Tested each relay indivdually- all working
- Cleaned Earths to shiny metal (underseat box x 2, transfer case, gear box + chassis, chassis + foot well)
- Bypassed (hardwired) Fuel cutoff inertia switch to remove from equation
- Hardwired Main and Fuel Pump relays. Can hear fuel pump running and engine turns over but no start
- removed battery cables overnight to let ECU bleed off power and reset
- Diagnostic tool: plenty of codes (main relay over temp, fuel pump relay over temp, fan relay over temp)
- Live Diagnostic Data: can watch rpm's on live data= assume that means crank position sensor is good
- Immobilizer light (red on speedo) is off when I try to start the car

I have an appt with mechanic on Wednesday, so if I can just get it started again..... I should be able to get it to the mechanic.

ANY HELP WOULD BE APPRECIATED!!!

[Tombie]

Have you checked all Earth points from battery to chassis etc?
Remove the ECU plugs and check for oil.
Check the wire to the Crank Angle Sensor, it can chafe and earth out.

[ThorneGator]

Thanks Tombie,

Yes, I forgot to mention, I did check for oil in the loom and ECU plugs. Clean/ no oil in any of the plugs.

I hadn't measured the underbody earths since cleaning, but the seatbox (driver) is great.... I will go measure them.

Good idea, I will check the crank sensor wire.

[shack]

I think the ecu fires all the things you mentioned,
If you could "test" another that would likely help narrow things down.

You may well get some of those fault codes if you have bypassed the circuitry so that data is possibly corrupted until factory circuits are reinstated.

The big earth issue in a defender is often the main earth strap that goes from the battery straight out the battery box then too the chassis and on to the back of a bolt on the bellhousing.

All the ones I've checked - that have had earthing issues have got problems with the "inline" crimped on fitting that goes to the chassis.

They all look ok, but on closer inspection the solder has melted/deteriorated and the fitting is loose on the cable, I would definitely give this some attention, and it only takes 15 minutes to remove the whole thing and get it on the workbench.

Check that first, then move onto the ecu.

Remember that if you pump the accelerator peddle 7 times I think,with the ignition on, the fuel pump will go into a fuel bleed mode and the engine light will flash as it cycles - you will be about to hear it running for a minute or so on and off, try that and see what happens.

Cheers
James

[ThorneGator]

Thanks James, I unfortunately think you are right regarding the ECU. I don't have a spare, so I may be unable to get her started even to drive it to the mechanic.

Regarding the earth, that is one of them that I disassembled, cleaned. All the earths now read 0 ohms.

Thanks for the reminder about fuel pump. I will go try that right now.

[ThorneGator]

Have you checked all Earth points from battery to chassis etc?
Remove the ECU plugs and check for oil.
Check the wire to the Crank Angle Sensor, it can chafe and earth out.


Tombie, no luck....Crank angle sensor wiring was solid, at least from what I could tell from the limited access I could get to it! I disconnected and was able to examine the last 3-4 cms of the plug.

Thanks

[ThorneGator]

Anyone know a way, just to get it started for on last drive to the mechanic

[Blknight.aus]

this is the last ditch effort and usually points to it cranking too slow but......

with the fuel pump in bypass on the relay crack the FPR and make sure its getting clean fuel. I've seen cases where the pump is spinning and making noise but not shifting fuel. if youve got a cro piggy back onto the back of one of the injectors and make sure its getting signal to fire when cranking. (have you checked the intertia switch and security system?)

if youre getting all of that I've had 2 experiences where for some reason the vehicle simply would not fire until the engine was turning over at a higher speed than the starter could crank it. A spritz of areo for the autos or a pull start for the manuals would always get it running.

Nope, never figured out the cause of it although my personal guess was that it was somehow related to the startermotor or the solenoid. Both vehicles sorted themselves out, one after it had the gearbox changed out and the other after the fuel filter was changed.

[jbe]

Two questions:
- have you cleared all the codes and did they come back?
- have you checked the relays near the ECU for signs of overheating or bad contact? I had similar issues with the engine running erratically and loss of power, but it was nowhere near as bad as what you describe. However, a friend of mine had no-starting issues due to the same problem. The realys near the ECU can get really hot to a point where they melt, or the relay socket melts.nI had to re wire them completely.

BTW, where are you located?

[PhilipA]

The fuel pump has 2 pumps, one high pressure one low pressure.
Maybe you are hearing the low pressure pump and the high pressure pump has died.
Do you have another fuel pump to try?

Regards PhilipA

[shack]

Just for interest, unhook the injector loom plug, see what faults it throws...

[Discofender]

+ 1 for tow starting, had similar with a manual D2, all sorts of fuel and electrical fault finding over a week and endless cranking hooked up to my one. We then towed it down an airfield got started 2nd attempt which was at a good pace. No issues starting it since.

[ThorneGator]

Thank you all.... really appreciate the ideas.

To answer: the relays aren't hot (or even warm) to the touch, and contacts and voltage measured (11.8V) seem good; is 11.8V acceptable?
The diagnostic tool only talked with the ECU once and the codes were numerous, but relay overheat was a common fault.
Now, I can;t get any communication out of the ECU> Diagnostic Tool

A pull start might be the answer!

What is puzzling me is that when I turn the key to position II, I don't get my glow plug and engine light to come on like normal. Makes me think about inertia switch, so I have bypassed that by hardwiring the plug with a peice of wire across the two outside holes. When I do this voltage shows back up at the main relay #85 (from memory), so I think I am managing that right? Thoughts?

I should check the fuel/ fuel pump. I don't have an extra pump, so not going that route. I haven't ever messed with fuel lines before, I know they are fragile, but and recco's for checking the fuel around the filter?

[Blknight.aus]

Now, I can;t get any communication out of the ECU> Diagnostic Tool


hmmm....

are you getting power to the ecu?

[shack]

So....

The ecu operates the glow plugs and the fuel pump and engine light.

If none of these are working it would suggest that:

A: the ecu is not getting power

B: the ecu is fried

If A is the cause you will not get Any readings or communication with the ecu.

You originally posted that you read faults, which meant it was getting power but there was a problem.. but I now see it will no longer do this, you could have an intermittent power problem.

Which still leads us back to the choice between A and B.

You could try running power directly across from the battery, but I would probably be looking at back probing the ecu multiplug to see if its getting power.

You should be able to do a search for which ones to probe.

There are 3 or 4 positive and earth feeds EACH that would need to be checked.

And your voltage is possibly a bit low.

Do you hear the relays in the battery box click when you turn the key on?

What do the fuel and temp gauge do?

Do you have ABS ? Do the lights come on?

Cheers
James

[ThorneGator]

Thanks James & Dave,

That is where I am starting to look now as well. The ABS lights come on (key in position II), but still no glow or engine. The relays work, but don't click when I turn the key. To bypass them not clicking, hardwire them to turn the fuel pump, glows, engine, fan relays on, and then try to start it......then engine just turns over but doesn't fire. I am assuming right now, that since the ECU doesn't isn't working that it doesn't get a signal from the sensors (including the Crank Position Senor) and so doesn't let the engine fire, thoughts?

That is a good idea to back probe the power supplies to the ecu to see if I can get it to 'light' up. What do you all use to back probe those wires-connections?

[shack]

Yeah there is really no point in "hot wiring"
Those particular relays, the ecu has to work them.

From memory...I think one of them fires the ecu, but I haven't got one I can check at the moment.

There is also a fuse that could be blown..and I really can't remember which one, but check all the fuses under the seat.

I'm pretty sure that as soon as you turn on the ignition at least one relay should click under the seat, so I'd be turning the ignition on and wriggling them, particularly the first two from the left side as you look at them, if that doesn't do anything (no clicks) I'd be swapping them around.

A multimeter can be used to probe.

Cheers
James

[ThorneGator]

So...... I have been probing and measuring and wiggling and repeating.

I have 12+ volts all through my fuses, relays and through the brown (w/ orange trace) wires all the way upto the ECU (oil free). Then when I measure the impedance of the ground wires leaving the ECU, they are all > 300 ohms= no good! So best I can tell my issue resides within the walls of the ECU. Am I missing something?

She goes to the mechanic in a couple of days, so I think I let them solve the ECU. I just wish I could get'er started so I didn't have to tow her in!

My current ECU is remapped. Will I loose the remap? Any suggestions on steps with the ECU and not repurchasing a remap?

[shack]

I would be finding an earth point somewhere, connect the multimeter negative probe too that, then check the positive Feed wires for the ecu.

If they all check out ok, at 12 volts or more, reverse the procedure, hook the positive multimeter probe up to a known positive, then see if all the earth's running to the ecu return 12 volts.

The plugs can be removed from the ecu for this, which makes it a bit Easier to probe..

Did you find an ecu pin out diagram?

Cheers
James

[ThorneGator]

I would be finding an earth point somewhere, connect the multimeter negative probe too that, then check the positive Feed wires for the ecu.

If they all check out ok, at 12 volts or more, reverse the procedure, hook the positive multimeter probe up to a known positive, then see if all the earth's running to the ecu return 12 volts.

The plugs can be removed from the ecu for this, which makes it a bit Easier to probe..

Did you find an ecu pin out diagram?

Cheers
James

Thanks James, I did the first half of what you recommended, but then looked at impedance after that. I will try what you said and measure Volts with the +ve & -ve at the plug. Thanks you!

[ThorneGator]

Resolution!.....
Wanted to make sure I gave an appropriate ending to this thread and thanked everyone for the help.

It was the ECU. Plugged a new ECU in to test, and it fired right up. Happy it is resolved, unhappy that it couldn't have been a less expensive issue. Oh well.

Thanks,
Taylor

[Footnote10]

If there’s no ecu light I’d check power and grounds to the ECU... I’ve had similar recent troubles

[Mudnut]

I have gone through lots of starting and running issues on my TD5 Defender. Kept frying relays. Turns out it was the relay blocks were worn, and faulty. Had the relay blocks replaced in front of the gear lever, and so far problem solved. Has been 6 months so far, and one big trip to central Qld.

Just as an aside. What does your temp gauge do when you turn the key to the on position? Mine would max out even though the engine was cold.

Good luck sorting it out.

Ken

I just saw your post, you sorted it out. Hope this helps with others though.