4BD1 - Stage 1 Crankcase flooded with Coolant

[Aryoch]

Hi

A routine trip to the shops in the Stage 1 was rudely interrupted today when it decided that all the coolant belonged in the crankcase.



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The vehicle has a low coolant alarm fitted which went off which was the first indication something was wrong. Upon investigation it was leaving a trailer of oil and water slurry behind it coming out of the breather pipe and has helpfully coated the underneath of the vehicle with the muck.

It became quickly evident that it was very efficiently pumping the water into the crankcase. The motor sounded normal when I last shut it off.

Grumbles (The Stage 1) is in the shed now and I have drained the oil. A quick initial inspection with a magnet of the tub of goo has returned no metal bits.

I've had a search of the forum and I can't see anybody encountering a similar issue.

I am assuming at this stage that I've well and truly blown the head gasket. I don't think there is any other way of the two fluids mixing??? (is there a welsh plug behind the water pump or something - not sure. ?? ) There is muck in the radiator as well so the oil is getting into the water galleries also.

so at this stage I am thinking:

i) Check the slurry for metal bits more thoroughly.
ii) Drop the sump and check and clean.
iii) Assuming I haven't found the big end bearings in bits or similar - Remove the cylinder head and see what I can see.
iv) Get the Cylinder head to the machinists for a tidy up and machining if necessary and
v) put it all back together with the necessary gaskets.
vi) Flush the engine with some cheap oil and change immediately. (and flush the cooling system).


I would be interested if anybody has encountered similar issue to this or has any thoughts on how best to deal with this.

Thanks.

Adrian

(Margate - Tas)

[Blknight.aus]

block oil cooler perforated would be my guess so id be leaving everything else alone until you do a pressure test on the cooling system.


my method would be to fill the cooling system with dye coloured water then pressureise to 15 psi with the sump plug out.

if it leaks out of there the next step is to pull the glow plugs and do a compression/leakdown test

that will get you closer to an answer. its pretty rare for these engines to do the headgasket or suffer a head failure.

you could have unseated a liner or had a rust through on the block at the bottom end.

the oil cooler is mounted in the block on the RHS in a removeable panel under the inlet manifold

[Bearman]

Oil cooler would be my guess too.

[JDNSW]

Same here.

[Aryoch]

Thanks.

I hadn't even considered the oil cooler. So really appreciate being pointed in that direction.

I don't need to pressure test to 15psi! - I took the radiator cap off and with the sump out the radiator simply emptied itself via the sump plug without any pressure needing to be applied. See video! [bigsad]

YouTube (https://youtu.be/50JpXyu53FU)

Haven't got as far as a compression test - been cleaning goop up off the driveway. Did pull the oil filter. :(

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[JDNSW]

My feeling would be to pull the oil cooler as being perhaps easier than running a compression test - and more likely to find the problem.

[Blknight.aus]

Thanks.

I hadn't even considered the oil cooler. So really appreciate being pointed in that direction.

I don't need to pressure test to 15psi! - I took the radiator cap off and with the sump out the radiator simply emptied itself via the sump plug without any pressure needing to be applied. See video! [bigsad]

YouTube (https://youtu.be/50JpXyu53FU)

Haven't got as far as a compression test - been cleaning goop up off the driveway. Did pull the oil filter. :(

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thats most likely to be the cooler, I still recommend that you do a compression/leakdown test as that will help eliminate the potential of a liner issue. but I strongly recommend pulling the sump to degunge it and conform its not the bottom of a liner cracked away from the block.

the modification to your leakdown test will be doing it with the cooling system open and draind. If you have that goo in the radiatior as well the pipes hoses and radiator (inc heater) will want to be flushed

[rijidij]

If it is the oil cooler, at least there’s a good chance it will be a fairly easy fix.
If you shut it down quickly, hopefully it will just be a case of new oil cooler and a good flush.

[Aryoch]

Hi. So I've done a leakdown test - I had to make a tester and a wrench for the crankcase nut (couldn't get either locally / quickly) all cylinders are holding pressure and I've taken the sump off, cleaned it out and looked at the base of the liners. To my eye they look ok.

I've got the sump back on temporarily at the moment and it's got about 6 litres of cheap oil in it - been turning it over by hand and using a large syringe to suck out grey crap from the Oil Filter housing.

I believe I have to take the fuel pump off next to get to all the bolts on the oil cooler. If there are any tricks to that - happy to hear them. I have got a number of manuals so need to read them - I've had a bit of a skim - but not across how I maintain the pump timing yet.

I am a bit concerned about how I flush the grey crap out of the motor - It's is very sticky and I am a bit worried about it blocking up oil galleries and holes and not wanting to break down quickly. I would expect I would be doing a number of quick oil changes.

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There was a tiny bit of metal in the sump. Photo is with a bic pen for comparison.

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Cheers,

Adrian

[Blknight.aus]

to clear the sludge use ATF, cheapest stuff you can find fill the sump let it run for a few minutes and do it again. once the sludge is down to a minimal level (grey sludge) put in a moderate engine oil with a high detergent additive. run that and get the engine up to temp for about 20 minutes or so, take the rocker cover off and watch whats going around.

I've been known to do an on the fly change by tapping onto the filter drain bung filling the engine with new oil as fast as it was being pumped out of the tap. (kmart cheapest oil on the planet is great for this)

[Blknight.aus]

they can be gotten with a 12point style crows foot.


https://www.amazon.com.au/Stanley-Proto-J4934FL-Crowfoot-Wrench/dp/B001HWE9CA

the pumps not that bad to take off, pull the timing cover pull the engine around until the mark lines up with the timing point and then paint pen and scribe the mounting flanges.

takes about an hour to pull the pump off, and you'll appreicate the space and opportunity to gurney the block... the gurney will also quickly get rid of unwanted sludge.

[Aryoch]

Well, Pump is off - as is oil cooler.
And the news isn't good.
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I was expecting to see a hole in the oil cooler and there didn't appear to be one - so I pressure tested it.

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and it held 75 psi just fine with the valve shut.
So I dropped the oil out of the sump again - thinking I would plug the coolant holes in the side of the block started putting some water back in the radiator.

But before the water level got anywhere near the coolant holes in the side of the block - it started streaming out from the crankcase from below/around No 4 Piston - above/over the big end.

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So not sure if I buggered up the leak down test and I do have a failed liner or - perhaps as also suggested - rusted through somewhere in there. :(

So by this time I'm pretty unhappy and it's getting late and cold and there is water and sludge everywhere again so left it alone for a bit.

When I get a chance I'll see if I can have a better look at where the water is coming from.


Adrian

[Aryoch]

Hi

Just an update. There has been progress happening.

I found the exact spot it is leaking - through the liner on Cylinder No 4.
About 5mm up from the base of the liner is a rough spot - which turns out to be a hole which the water runs freely out of.

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And a slab has been laid in the apron in front of the garage bay so I will be able to move an engine crane / etc around.

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I have spoken to Justin Cooper who pointed me in the direction of the machinist (Phil Young) who I've spoken to.

So once the slab has had a chance to harden a bit will pull the engine out and go from there.

Cheers,


Adrian

[JDNSW]

Unless I am mistaken, these are (supposed to be) dry liners, which means there is a hole in the casting behind it - and has presumably rusted through the thin liner. (there would be no compression or combustion pressure on the lining this low. I would guess there is a casting fault and it has taken this long to rust through.

[Phil B]

Wow!
That must be a first. Is there no way of sealing the hole with epoxy, sealer, solder, weld?
Good luck with it.

[JDNSW]

Since the hoole is in an unstressed part of the liner, something like that would probably work - provided that the hole in the casting is behind it. On the other hand, it could be a cracked block, and this is just where the liner rusted through. At a minimum I would want to pull the liner and see what the situation was. If it is a small casting fault, as I would suspect, this could be repaired and the liner replaced, but you really want to be sure that is the situation.

[Blknight.aus]

pull the liner and inspect the face of the land....

if its a rust through or casting porosity you can emery it and then build it up with silver solder before having the bore machined back to round.

[Aryoch]

Hi.

Been meaning to update. I have appreciated the feedback and advice.
The motor is out and with Phil Young Engineering. Justin recommended them as the go to guys for rebuilding and repairing motors.

So just awaiting feedback from them. [bigwhistle]

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Cheers,

Adrian

[Aryoch]

Hi.

Just an update. Apparently the water jacket has corroded through to the liner on all 4 cylinders. Though only through the liner on number 4.

So the fix is apparently to bore the block out for a new sleeve on each cylinder to replace the water jacket- then bore the sleeve out to fit a standard liner.

The cost by the time that is finished and the motor rebuilt is a bit eye-watering - around $7k.

Don't suppose anybody has a half-decent 4bd1 sitting around!??

Cheers,

Adrian

[Phil B]

$7k is over the top IMO.
By the sounds of it you only need the block
I would imagine these should be available from owners who have worn out or damaged motors.
Why don’t you try a post on some of the numerous Perentie forums?