B100 & TD5 Experiences

[solmanic]

We have strayed onto this topic in the technical chatter forum, so I thought it best to repeat the genesis of this discussion here...

I would like to hear any experiences anybody has or is having running B100 fuel in a TD5. Not low percentage blends, not in any other TDi engine - just pure biodiesel in a TD5. I am also not that interested in hearsay or manufacturer's written recommendations unless there is actual data to back it up (ie. actual TD5 tests and failures, or success). My concern is that manufacturers may simply say that an engine is non-biodiesel compatible just to scare us wallys off using it then stuffing them around when things go to the pooper.

I am in the research phase of setting up my own little family bio-diesel co-operative and the total quality control of homebrewing B100 appeals to me. In theory, with sufficient care and testing, I should be able to produce better quality biofuel at home that playing the bowser lottery (I stress, "in theory").

So who's doing it? How's it going? What's gone wrong? What's working well? Let the games begin...

[tombraider]

Landrover is a "green" company.. They specify that their V8's can run E10 etc.. And have no issues with the TDi s running Bio.

Now when its in their interests to have their engines run bio...

You know, cheaper to run our vehicles, cleaner for the enviro, yadda yadda :mellow:

Yet they definatively state to not run it in the TD5.

I'd say this in itself is a sensible answer. However I'd suggest ringing the boys at Graeme Cooper Automotive who have said explicitly that it causes problems in the TD5 engine.

Now all the arguments for more lubricity etc... Who cares! We dont have mechanical pumps that need that we have cam actuated injectors so it makes no difference.

But, really, in the end - I dont mind what you run :D:D:D:D

Tombraider

[solmanic]

I will contact them - I am keen to get to the bottom of this and I'll post some info on exactly what the problems are to see if anybody has had them.

It is fair to say that making the switch to B100 would be at the pointy end of an inevitable global switch to non-fossil fuels. It's just most of the case studies I have read about concern people dabbling with older engines usually modified to use the stuff. I need to find out what, if anything, actually fails in a TD5 - a newer generation engine - which is able to handle new generation fuels such as low-sulphur diesel.

One of the other bio-fuels threads concerns the different types of oil (canola etc). If it is only certain oils or other additives which cause problems, then it may not be as simple as saying ALL biodiesel is bad for TD5s. Again, I am looking to find the right formula (if any) so I can make my own and be sure of the quality.

[rick130]

Check this thread http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f8/td5-biodiesel-veggie-oil-24787.html
I'm guessing the problem is a density/viscosity issue with the fuel in a common rail engine.

[damage]

I would be interested in this, considering how many TD5's have leaking injectors causing massive fuel dilation, surely it couldn't make them any worse than they are LOL.

[303gunner]

From the Biofuels Forum (http://www.biofuelsforum.com/showthread.php't=71&page=2), relating to the common rail diesel in the TD4 Freelander:
"I do not want to pour cold water on you but I must warn you the LR uses what is referred to as a pin lift sensor to indicate that fuel is reaching the motor. It uses a rubber part and is affected badly by biodiesel. I have a work mate who went through this recently (last year)."
and:
"I'm also having a look in my workshop manual which covers the L series too and I can see reference to a "Fuel Injector Needle Lift Sensor", which "informs the ECM of the start of the injection sequence". It is only 1 of 11 sensors listed that tell the fuel system how to run. Most of the other sensors are not actually part of the fuel system though.
As for info on this Needle Lift Sensor, it appears that is is an integral part of the 1st injector and cannot be renewed on its own. I'd guess this means that a new #1 injector would be needed if this part was causing problems.
As for whether this part is made from natural rubber or is synthetic, I have no info here, but perhaps if I could look it up in my LR software, I could give you a part number for it. This might make it easier to hone down on a more specific answer, perhaps from LR."
Could the TD5 Defender use the same component/sensor?

[solmanic]

This is good info... now what I am interested in is whether the needle lift sensor in the #1 injector is just one of several TD5 weak spots. If it was the only one then I wonder what modifications can be made to overcome it.

I also pointed out on the other thread that the April 2005 issue of Overlander magazine (which is bundled free with the current June 06 issue) has an article on biodiesel. There is one case study of a TD5 where the owner swears by it. That was more than 12 months ago so I wonder if a call to the Overlander office to see if they could follow him up would be in order. That other UK bio-fuels forum was a good read and most of the problems referred to there seemed to occur 4 or more months after making the switch.

[JDNSW]

I may be barking up the wrong tree, but I am not sure transferring information from the TD4 to the TD5 is very relevant - certainly they are both common rail, but isn't the TD4 a BMW engine? where the TD5 is a Landrover designed engine?

John

[solmanic]

The info on the biofuels forum warning of the pin lift sensor in the TD4 apparently relates only to earlier model TD4 engines (pre 2000). The remainder of that particular thread generally gives the newer TD4s the thumbs up.

As for the relevance of TD4 info to the TD5, this is my reason for wanting information specific to the TD5. I don't want to assume anything - after all, it makes an "ass" out of "u" & "me".

[rick130]

Here is a link to a PDF from Caterpillar (via the biofuels forum ;) ) regarding bio-diesel in their engines. Yes, I realise it isn't TD5 specific, but I was told by an ex-Land Rover engineer that the Storm project used a couple of fuel people poached from Caterpillar, and that the Storm/TD5 injection system was, in his words a "true common rail system, unlike BMW's " ( and Volkswagens PD) systems.
http://www.biofuelsforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152&d=1146889358

[arthurking83]

I have no experience with any deisels, or bio fuels, etc...

Would the higher pressures of the common rail system(an early incarnation of such a system too) in the TD5, be reason for concern for LandRovers' concern???

That is, maybe the higher pressures affect the performance of biodeisel fuel that weren't taken into account in the '90's when the TD5 was being developed????

Like I said, I know nothing of deisels!

I've been contemplating a deisel (and possibly running it on bio), but as it stands LPG is still my best option ATM!


Just curious:huh:

[Redback]

OK my thoughts on bio diesel in a TD5, don't use it, me and Discowhite have tried it in our TD5s and it caused poor fuel economy and low power.

Coming back from a trip to the sth coast after a weekend of playing, it and a bugger of a drive down we decided to fill up our tanks with Dinodiesel on the way home to see if the lack of power and terrible economy was due to the biodiesel, and after a few Ks we noticed a difference, it was almost like i had released the handbrake that had been on for the whole weekend.

I tow a fairly heavy camper so i need good power and economy, so for me Biodiesel is out, and same for Phil too.

Baz

[Omaroo]

Interesting to see that Caterpillar white paper notes an drop in energy levels of the order of 6-7% over distillate diesel. I reckon that 's about what I lost in power last week when my wife accidentally filled our common-rail Jeep (2.7 Merc CRD) with B50. There was a total lack of kick-down power on bio fuel. It felt like the engine was just having an "off day". Very soggy performance indeed given that you can normally achieve "neck-snapping" acceleration off from the lights in it - and spin all four if you want to - if the road is just slightly damp or if you're turning out of a driveway. Not on bio!

[timberwolf_302]

The April '05 edition of Overlander talks in great detail about BioDiesel, and in particular one bloke who makes his own and runs it in his Defender 130 Td5. He claims it runs smoother, is quieter and doesnt noticably use more fuel than on Petro-Diesel.

Thats in a Td5.

I myself am considering making my own Bio-Diesel when I get a Diesel powered vehicle. The savings are to big to ignore.

[bluetongue]

I'd suggest ringing the boys at Graeme Cooper Automotive who have said explicitly that it causes problems in the TD5 engine.
Tombraider

Last time my fuel pump died in my '00 Defender TD5 --- because of dodgy "normal" diesel --- the fellas at Graeme Cooper Automotive told me whatever I do "don't use biodiesel"... I don't understand enough about to understand why you should not, but I'll go with their advice.

I'm just curious if any of you guys "more-in-the-know" than me have called Graeme Cooper and gotten the low-down?

The one thing I do know is --- it hurts to purchase 2 fuel pumps in one year :cry:

[solmanic]

the fellas at Graeme Cooper Automotive told me whatever I do "don't use biodiesel"...

Well I finally got on to Graeme Cooper himself and asked him about his opinion of Bio-diesel. Graeme was neither for or against it - he asserts that he has not, to his knowledge, had a TD5 brought in with a problem relating to bio-diesel. Most of the concern is with regards to the effect bio may have on the injectors and, possibly, rubber bits in the fuel delivery system. But, he says these areas mostly suffer problems because of dodgy regular petro-diesel. As long as it lubricates well and doesn't gel, he believes bio should be as safe as regular stuff.

So officially, no alarm bells from this source.

[solmanic]

I have just picked up the June 2006 issue of Land Rover Monthly (I love how up-to-date we are here in the colonies) and there is another article on bio-diesel. Once again there is a question regarding the suitability of B100 in a TD5 and ONCE AGAIN there is no clear opinion!

The article repeats Landrover's official statement that they do not warrant the TD5 to run on anything exceeding a 5% blended fuel - come on guys! I am increasingly suspicious of companies that refuse to do any serious investigation to this alternative albeit inevitable fuel. Surely Landrover (or should I say Ford) must have some corporate knowledge about the effects of B100 in ALL their engines.

It is unfair that the practical research into B100 is left up to us, the end users and forums like this where we say technically intelligent things like "it sort of worked" or "it buggered it up good"... I'm sure somewhere in the bowels of the Ford behemoth is a TD5 that has been running for 1000 hours on the stuff to see if it explodes. This is a third generation common-rail injected turbo-diesel engine so unless Ford are expecting that they will all be knackered and off the road by the time we are forced onto B100 I want to know what they know.

End rant.

[George130]

In that article they said it was that the injectors would clog due to the pressure in the TD5. I fould that the most to the point info on the TD5 and Bio yet.

[JDNSW]

I would doubt that anyone in Ford or Landrover is doing ANY work on the TD5 - after all it is slated to be replaced in the near future. I suggest that any work they are doing on biofuels, and I agree it is likely they are, is being done on engines that are planned for continuing production, not ones that are planeed to be replaced.

[DirtyDawg]

Solmainic..the latest LRM has a Bio diesel spread init an guess what it answers the Question on wht Biodiesel is NOT recommended in TD5's

"Because of the high pressure injection system on the TD5,there are potential issues with the injectors getting blocked.That seems to be why it is not recommended"

FIY

[solmanic]

Solmainic..the latest LRM has a Bio diesel spread init an guess what it answers the Question on wht Biodiesel is NOT recommended in TD5's

"Because of the high pressure injection system on the TD5,there are potential issues with the injectors getting blocked.That seems to be why it is not recommended"


That's not an answer to anything - and this is my problem. The quote is from a biodiesel producer and he is only offering his explanation - still no hard evidence. The article then goes on to ask the question if anybody knows anything for sure.

The guy quoted is only re-iterating Landrover's reason for poo-pooing bio in the TD5, but it still lacks any sort of empirical data. I want someone to say "...from our research we have found n cases of biodiesel related failures in a td5..." or words to that effect. The more I dig, the more I find that no-one has had a biodiesel related failure. Poor fuel economy - yes. Gunk in the fuel filter from cleaning the residual petro-diesel sludge - yes.

My main reason for starting this thread was that I had heard rumours about bio-diesel stuffing up TD5 injectors, but to date I haven't come across anyone who actually has had a bio-busted injector. As I mentioned a while ago, I even spoke to Graeme Cooper himself and he confirmed that he had never seen a bio-diesel related failure in a TD5 - and I thought if anyone had, he would have.

Clogged injectors are not guaranteed if you run biodiesel - you can get clogged injectors from any poor quality fuel. Gelling of the fuel is also a proven problem - but only in cold climates so again, that is controllable.

I would like to be driving my Defender on B100 when fuel tops $5 a litre - but before I embark on anything major, I need to know for sure whether it is too much of a risk.

[tannery]

err.. g'day..

I'm the guy in the Overlander April edition who makes his own biodiesel.

I've been making the fuel for a couple of years now, and spent most of last year using B100 on my 2001 model D130 (TD5)... with no problems at all. zero. nill. none. zip. diddly.

I didn't and have not replaced any fuel filters - apart from regular service intervals - and Ritters are the guys in Melbourn who look after my car.. and they know the fuel I put in and have not noticed any impact on the D130.

there was a slight decrease in performance, which is can be explained chemically... as there is not an much energy in the BD as there is in the same amount of dino-diesel. and let's be honest, the D130 ain't a Ferrari.. so performance over 400m isn't a main consideration for us..

hope that helps..

biodiesel bob.

[George130]

Bob that is exactly what everyone has been looking for. Which method are you using to produce your fuel as a friend and I are about to start production with testing in an old merc before my Defender

[tannery]

I use the std techniques - which use methanol (20% by volume), potassium hydroxide (KOH) and of course waste veggie oil (heated to 60degrees) ...

I use the bubble washing to clean the fuel of excess methanol, soaps, etc.. then filter down to 2 micron using a std diesel fuel filter (with clear bowl at the botton)..

I then put it into the fuel tank..

The best resources I've used on the internet are:
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751
http://www.localb100.com/

hope that helps..

biodiesel bob..

[EchiDna]

good to hear bob...

could you run us through what rubber parts (if any) you replaced in the fuel system?

did you change all the hoses etc to synthetic rubber type?

thanks in advance,

another hopeful future biodeisel maker :)

and with access to a cetane engine ;)

[tannery]

good to hear bob...

could you run us through what rubber parts (if any) you replaced in the fuel system?

did you change all the hoses etc to synthetic rubber type?

thanks in advance,

another hopeful future biodeisel maker :)

and with access to a cetane engine ;)

sure - I have not replaced any rubber parts, or filters (apart from the fuel filter which was required to be chaged at the 120,000km service).. for what its worth, I have been using biodiesel since approx. 87,000 km

I have not made any modifications/alterations to my car... apart from adding a rev. counter.. but that doesn't count. :-)

its fortunate that TD5 have synthetic rubber hoses, and plastic (HDPE, I think) fuel tank..

[George130]

OK. We already have a couple of filters one which is down to 1 micron. We also have 200 litres of used oil waiting to be processed and prommisses of more.

[tannery]

so.. 200 litres of WVO waiting to convert?

what's stopping you?

[George130]

Waiting on the friend to return from holidays and then actually setting it up.

[tannery]

hard to believe that there is this thread running on good experiences with TD5 engines and biodiesel.. yet in the very nex "room" there is a counter argumnet running that wouldn't touch the stuff!

go figure..

biodiesel bob.. (and proud of it!) :-)

[lardy]

for all the info you require look on Bio Fuels Forums - Powered by vBulletin (http://www.biofuelsforum.com/) you will have to search for the info but the website is pretty much set up like this one .....i dont know why you are being so worried if you produce the bio yourself or have a consistent source of quality bio you have no dramas i run my patrol on 100% bio and have increased performance stopped the sooty fumes etc ...having been a landy head for years (and sadly coming to W.A. the place devoid of tdi lumps ) i would not have any worries running a landy on bio.....can anyone push me in the direction of a 130 landy with a tdi please.
w w w biofuels forum .com i hope that helps

[Blknight.aus]

bio diesel looses lubricity under extremely high pressure and temperatures.
This is going to be the downfall.

Ive covered it before but heres the summation of the summized summary

if your bio is perfect and your fuel system is spotlessly clean and you never run anything that isnt perfect you will be ok
If you have anything less than perfect the bio does not have the ability to deal with it once its in the injector and getting squished at 21000psi ish (no that is not a typo)
If you get any spotting in the injector It will eat itself in rapid order.
If one injector goes the rest wont be far away
$1400 for each injector and you need a minor reprogram of the ECU to get the best out of new ones.

Calculate out how much it will cost you to make your bio per liter, subtract that from the cost of fuel per liter, then multiply it out to work out how many liters you need to use to replace all your injectors. If you burn through that many liters of bio then you break even. if you use more your infront.

you might want to add a 10% margin to that to cover the fact that bio is anywhere from 5-15% less powerful than diesel.

[lardy]

re: the bio issues on td5's well most motors produced (now i think it was after) 98 onwards removed natural rubber from the parts from pump parts( bit of an issue seeing how my patrol is a 94 but lol.)
being a chef and having used canola its properties are excellent as it holds better under heating to 180 than a lot of oils, your issues are rubber parts and sensors although in Europe cars were being produced with bio in mind and you can purchase b100 from the bowser, so in effect you should not have issues.
though sadly if running a new motor under warranty in Australia they tend not to cover you for bio though that is another issue look at the bio diesel forum.
injectors are cleaned and lubed by b100 if up to a good standard of production and no dramas should occur, though after running on bio for 2000k sometime around that mark you should change your fuel filter (cleverly your engine will inform you by stopping ) and look in the banjo feed on the injector pump at the same time to ensure you are not dragging crap that lines the tank from diesel, doesn't come through the system and cause blockages, i must say that the old tank i drive has only improved in performance as bio has a higher setane(octane in diesel) than diesel and if running a more basic lump you will have no dramas i guess it comes down to investigating what has gone into making your engine components,
There are huge arguments over bio yay or nay but it comes down as weather or not you want to diminish your carbon footprint and re-utilise an otherwise waste product at the same time glycerine is produced as a by-product which is a detergent its all plus's as far as i am concerned.and more cost effective in the present climate

[lardy]

dave bio should cost around 30c a litre once you have it perfected,and i beg to differ re the lower setane of bio it isn't correct it has a higher power potential than fossil diesel, it maybe just that whoever purchased land rover last produced a crap engine give me a 300 tdi any day

[discowhite]

yes its cheaper, it might not hurt the rubber, but yes it did make my TD5 90 run like a bag of poo! it felt fine around town but struggled to hold 110kph and use 18-19l per 100! thats crap! and that was just B20!!!!

so no, its not for the td5. i havent found anyone that has liked bio in a td5.

cheers phil

[Tombie]

The Calorific value of Bio is Lower than that of Dino Diesel.

Also, as has been stated, the Bio behaves very different in the ultra high pressures inside a Unitary injector around 21000psi...

You *may* get some life from the engine, you may crap out all the injectors ...

BAS (Pete) from the UK, and Yorkshire John should have some real life experience in Bio issues in TD5s...

My personal stance - Dont do it... Its not a good thing for the TD5 engine.


dave bio should cost around 30c a litre once you have it perfected,and i beg to differ re the lower setane of bio it isn't correct it has a higher power potential than fossil diesel, it maybe just that whoever purchased land rover last produced a crap engine give me a 300 tdi any day

[zelko]

G'day Slomanic, just a short positive reply

A mate of mine has been making Bio for almost 10 years now, he has been using B100 for that many years himself, starting with Disco TDI and now in his TD5 which he has had for nearly 12 months. I myself have been running my TDI on B100 for almost 6 years now. We have friends with all types of cars from landys, landcruisers, pootrols and the latest Suzuki Vartara common rail. No one has had any problems with using Bio. WE ALL LOVE THE STUFF.

I would have to agree with biodiesel bob and Lardy and say as long as you make it to the standards or better then there is nothing wrong with running your car on B100, as to the suggestions that Bio ruins the rubbers in the fuel system, that's true but low sulphur diesel also ruins rubber so you can't just say Bio only does. Your TD5 shouldn't have rubber in your fuel system anyhow, as it should all have Viton seals which is not affected by Bio or low sulphur diesel.

As Lardy states about changing your filter, I would change the filter after the second tank of Bio as it will clean the fuel system out really good, then extend the length between filter changes after that.

You will always get people saying it's not worth the risk but if your that enthusiastic about making it then I suggest you try it for yourself.

It's great to see the positive experiences on this than the usual negative responses.

Regards
Zelko

[discowhite]

im not being negative im being factual!
fact is if i didnt get such poor milage and loss of power ide deffinatly give it a go!

cheers phil

[Redback]

yes its cheaper, it might not hurt the rubber, but yes it did make my TD5 90 run like a bag of poo! it felt fine around town but struggled to hold 110kph and use 18-19l per 100! thats crap! and that was just B20!!!!

so no, its not for the td5. i havent found anyone that has liked bio in a td5.

cheers phil


The Calorific value of Bio is Lower than that of Dino Diesel.

Also, as has been stated, the Bio behaves very different in the ultra high pressures inside a Unitary injector around 21000psi...

You *may* get some life from the engine, you may crap out all the injectors ...

BAS (Pete) from the UK, and Yorkshire John should have some real life experience in Bio issues in TD5s...

My personal stance - Dont do it... Its not a good thing for the TD5 engine.


im not being negative im being factual!
fact is if i didnt get such poor milage and loss of power ide deffinatly give it a go!

cheers phil

OK, Phil(discowhite) and I tried Bio diesel at the same time, we went away for the weekend and the both of us suffered low power AND poor fuel economy and with my camper on, i stuggled to hold 100kph and as for hills, i was one gear lower than i was using Dino diesel.

I back up what Phil and Mike have said, it doesn't work well in the TD5 and I feel it has to do with the higher injection pressures.

Baz.

[zelko]

OK obviously there is a lot of guys that have problems with it and there are lots of us that swear by it, maybe it all comes down to how it is made.

Cheers
Zelko

[Blknight.aus]

bio diesel looses lubricity under extremely high pressure and temperatures.
This is going to be the downfall.

Ive covered it before but heres the summation of the summized summary

if your bio is perfect and your fuel system is spotlessly clean and you never run anything that isnt perfect you will be ok
If you have anything less than perfect the bio does not have the ability to deal with it once its in the injector and getting squished at 21000psi ish (no that is not a typo)


for those of you who just skim read my post read it again then come back here and read the bits highlighted in RED.


dave bio should cost around 30c a litre once you have it perfected,and i beg to differ re the lower setane of bio it isn't correct it has a higher power potential than fossil diesel, it maybe just that whoever purchased land rover last produced a crap engine give me a 300 tdi any day

If your bio costs 30cpl to make then you are not declaring your excise to mr tax man and when he finds out he will hit you a, for tax evasion bye bye up to $25000 and potentiall hello to Bubba, friendly tip, dont drop the soap. excise is currently 38 CPL.


OK obviously there is a lot of guys that have problems with it and there are lots of us that swear by it, maybe it all comes down to how it is made.

Cheers
Zelko

correct, if your bios perfect untill you clear approximately 17000 psi bio is just like normal diesel but it has a better suspension quality, which is why it cleans your fuel system so well. It is also between 5-15% less bang for your buck and thats when its perfect. IF you dont get it perfect and you leave some methanol or ethanol in suspension it has the potential to be up to 30% more powerful than normal diesel BUT that will be at the cost of your fuel system and engine life.

You might get away with leaving enough (m)ethanol to get a little boost (say 5-10%) in an older engine thats tired and low on compression but in a micky mouse engine you will induce diesel knock. Diesel knock is a really cool thing if you happen to like inverted piston tops and dont happen to like your lower half piston shells. Personally I like my bearings with the white metal attached to the backing plate and not impregnated into the crank and I think that the engineers happened to do a good job on the piston crowns so would rather leave them alone as well.


some figures that Ive roughtly gonkulated out on the injector specs for the 3 types of injectors...

7-800 psi. series diesel injectors... big tolerances run it on sump oil thats been delivered from the sump of a haul pack after being filtered through a tray load of mixed gravel.

9-15000 psi TDI injectors These diesels feature injectors that do PRIME (PRe Injection MEtering) the initial shot is at about 8-11000 psi and the main body of injection which follows is between 9 and 15000 psi depending on how tweaked and worn your units are. The TDI is Land Rovers best engine for BIO diesel the injectors dont kill it and there is enough tolerance in the injector to deal with little imperfections caused by the fuel without getting siezed. if you only run bio crank on a little more advance on the injection timing (it will vary from engine to engine and even batch to batch) and you can more or less remove the power loss that bio can cause, this is because of what and how PRIME makes the combustion process better. Ask me later and I will go through it in detail and even draw up some so simple an ADGie could follow it.

14-21000 psi.. Td5 injectors and infact most true "common rail" or "unit" injectors. very very fine tolerances and very high pressures a loss of lubricity can cause injector needle/seat spotting this winds up eventually leading to a dribbly injector and then a leaking injector... lets look at that further in the worst case scenario wearing "whatever is the opposite colour to rose" colored glasses

you're running the engine at full noise full load at full throttle conditions and it gets hot and the injectors running at max pressure and delivery. A little bit of rubber seal gets into the injector and under the temp and pressure converts itself to carbon and deposits itself on the seat (just the bio itself can (assuming its not a perfect mix) do this but it takes longer if there isn't something to get it started) the injector then sticks open... your fuel pump operates the fuel rail that feeds the injectors at about 80psi(g) the pressure in the combustion chamber as the piston moves down to draw in a fresh air charge is and lets be generous 30psi(g) so you get at least 50psi(g) of fuel pressure to push the fuel into the combustion chamber past the injector thats now stuck open as the engine does its intake stroke which will be there when the cylinder starts its compression stroke....

what happens to a diesel engine that has fuel in the combustion chamber when the compression stroke gets near top dead center?

What happens to that engine if the injector then feeds fuel into the combustion chamber thats already doing what it was doing when the injector injected?

Imagine what would happen if more than one cylinder was doing that...

now imagine you own an automatic.................



If thats not bad enough what happens when potasium hydroxide comes in contact with various metals and some plastics that just happen to be in the fuel system?

same question but with sodium hydroxide?

Doesn't ethanol (and methanol) have a detrimental effect on plastics?

Aren't the td5's fuel lines made of plastic?


just curious...

[lardy]

Dave calm yourself me old mate, i am talking of production costs not of the excise and anyway if you are looking at that element, then consider the $2,500 for batch analysis as well, that should strengthen your argument against producing the stuff eh?
Oh it's natural rubber that is the drama not plastic.

[lardy]

Td5's should never have gone into such a wonderfully engineered macarno set go the tdi..
I mean Land rover always evolved snail pace slow then the big boys started tinkering with them and look what happened BMW nicked landrover credentials to make that piece of junk.
And some muppet at ford for some unknown reason put a transit lump in defender grrrr!
Hands of the agricultural machinery thanks it was doing ok evolving on its own.
the tdi lump eventually would have caught up and done something typically land rover slightly under powered but fairly safe damn you bmw and ford
It may not have inspired the petrol heads out there but i love diesel lumps and especially the tdi

[Blknight.aus]

Im lucky as a mech I get the benefits of both the engines...

if your not scared of electronics and know how to listen to an engine for its life sounds then the td5 is a top piece of engine.. anyone who wants to come and see a well worked td5 that hasnt missed a beat is welcom to come and eyeball big red 130k K

you cant beat it for economy or for power.

BUT its a very very unforgiving mistress one bit of miss treatment and it will bite your wallet as badly as a divorce.

The Tdi is much more fogiving but not as economical for the power it can develop.

and the series well thats just a trooper of a diesel, give it just the slightest indication that the stuff in the injectors is fuel(ish) and if its warm enough it'll run. Fozzy will shortly be running pure WVO just dewatered and filtered.

heres the kicker.. both my rovers do about the same on fuel if I drive nice... very low 10ish L per hundred. drive really nice and thats down to 9's yes even fozzy. (on diesel)

[discowhite]

the TD5 was not made by BMW.

i agree with dave also.

cheers phil

[lardy]

I could have sworn that in landrover international which i used to subscribed to said that the td5 was developed under bmw and ford wrecked defender more so, recently ?!
But i stand corrected if i'm wrong, i have a general question can you get a td5, chop out all the bells and whistles and still be left with something that resembles a running vehicle?
My initial thought is no because the lump no longer responds to just a sniff of diesel technology....
What would be the cost of a tdi recon lump in the present market and would that (again i think yes) be too under powered for a 130 body ?
I guess i am a relic i know what i like and what i can work on the thought of a 130 td5 going bong! in the bush is not one i relish
regards

[zelko]

I could have sworn that in landrover international which i used to subscribed to said that the td5 was developed under bmw and ford wrecked defender more so, recently ?!
But i stand corrected if i'm wrong, i have a general question can you get a td5, chop out all the bells and whistles and still be left with something that resembles a running vehicle?
My initial thought is no because the lump no longer responds to just a sniff of diesel technology....
What would be the cost of a tdi recon lump in the present market and would that (again i think yes) be too under powered for a 130 body ?
I guess i am a relic i know what i like and what i can work on the thought of a 130 td5 going bong! in the bush is not one i relish
regards

Hey lardy

Actually Landrover developed the TD5 and BMW put the finishing touches on it. A TD5 running without bells and whistles, I can't see that working, it would be like fish and chips without the fish. With the TDI in a 130 body, didn't they already come out with them in the early series ?????
Cheers

[discowhite]

most people are scared of the unknown!
taking the technology off the td5 is a pointless comment!
its like saying take the injectors out of a tdi and see how usefull it is......

the td5 is a very strong motor, i have no quarms at all owing one, and yes i would be as self sufficent as anyone out in a tdi. (as long as i pack my tools..:angel:) and the nanocom.

cheers phil

[Blknight.aus]

the primary development contribution that BMW put into the TD5 was ECU and polution control related in terms of mapping and how it reacts to inputs.. nothing that landrover wasnt going to do.

BMW bought landrover before the TD5 was completed and released the range of vehicles with it equipped so it earned the opinion of being the BMW motor'd landrovers.

splitting hairs landrover paid for the development work and prototyping and the BMW flagship paid for the production of the engines so via the obscure financial accounting type technicality because they put the yes stamp on it then paid for building it its their engine. Its still really a landrover engine as its main use is in landrovers and it was produced by the landrover group even tho the group was owned by BMW.

Based on that very technicality It has to be a good engine BMW said yes to it. To further that idea that its a good engine BMW has taken some of the innovations that were put into the TD5 and has it in their passanger vehicle diesels.

[lardy]

so if i was to go up north (W.A.) or the kimberly for example i had say a naturally aspirated landy or say a turbo diesel landy or toyota and a td5 lined up next to each other, and a similar fault occurred that was beyond my capabilities.
Which vehicle would you suppose an old boy country mechanic would be able to cope with?
I guess the least technological of the bunch that has always been my concern, being left high and dry

[Blknight.aus]

that would depend on the nature of the fault and this is bordering onto thread hijack territory...

If you know the systems of an engine well enough you dont need the computer to diagnose them and the defender td5 does not do "lockdowns" as soon as you repair a fault thats triggering the check engine and putting you out of action it will let you go with full steam again.

the disco can but the lockdown problems are usually related to the immobilizer and alarm system.

The kicker is this. anything thats out of someone whose semi handy with the spanners and knows the basics of diesel suck squeeze bang blow can fix it and what will stop both you and the country greaser is parts regardless of the engine presented.

Take a Rave Cd with you and the catalog from fourwheel drives in melbourne and with a half decent workshop I reckon I could build you a td5 from nothing up, install it and get you running again. Anywhere, and so could any other greaser who reckoned they knew how to change the piston rings on a 4 stroke lawn mower.

[Tombie]

so if i was to go up north (W.A.) or the kimberly for example i had say a naturally aspirated landy or say a turbo diesel landy or toyota and a td5 lined up next to each other, and a similar fault occurred that was beyond my capabilities.
Which vehicle would you suppose an old boy country mechanic would be able to cope with?
I guess the least technological of the bunch that has always been my concern, being left high and dry

Lets say your TDI timing belt snaps and does the head in...

How technical do you want to be now?

Nonsensical argument.... There can ALWAYS be something that goes wrong that you cant fix on the track

[Tombie]

Hey lardy

Actually Landrover developed the TD5 and BMW put the finishing touches on it. A TD5 running without bells and whistles, I can't see that working, it would be like fish and chips without the fish. With the TDI in a 130 body, didn't they already come out with them in the early series ?????
Cheers

No, Actually your wrong...

The TD5 was always a LR product, I have the factory data on its development and there was no BMW involvement in its creation.

[Tombie]

Interestingly the comments from some of the pro bio guys shows the confusion in their argument.

You say you have no issues, yet you use more to achieve less.

You say it doesnt affect the engine and its fuel system...

Yet, you proclaim more filter changes....

You claim it doesnt harm the injectors, but how often do you drive, how far on BIO, how often do you tow, how long have you been running on purely BIO (no odd tanks of Dino etc)

Do you have test data relating to the damage the injectors may or may not be seeing? Over what distance, what load? What time period?

Also, simply put, making BIO in a residential area is in breach of 99% of councils by-laws...


I've said it before and I'll say it again...
"Landrover is a green company. It is in their best interests to have a greener product than the opposition. This is the new 'catch cry' of a modern, brain washed society that believes that were all carbon nasties.

To suggest that the answer is because they dont care is ridicuous.

The technicians do test these things, and have a lot of problems with Bio in CR and Unitary injectors.

A large number of TD5 failures have been in Bio Countries like France."


Now, if you, on your own vehicle, wish to take the risk/choice of running a home grown bio fuel in your vehicle, then feel free.

But, I would be VERY VERY careful if I was you, telling someone that running the TD5 on Bio is perfectly OK... Because its NOT.

Bio diesel is a gutless fuel for a modern type diesel, uses more to do the job, makes the engine work harder (wear factor) and uses hazardous chemicals in its creation (where do you put all them once your finished?)


And the wonderful world kicker.... There is material proof that the growing of Bio Crops is now reducing overall food supply in large portions of the world.... Where once rice and grain were grown for food, now Canola etc are grown for BioFuels....

There has been several documentary shows covering the pro and con of bio... So far it doesnt win...

[lardy]

I would suggest from my experience that i have the following info on my use of bio: my old tractor does no longer smoke, the issue with fuel filters is derived from the deposit left by the diesel usage, so in effect the you are cleaning your tank and injectors from years of this coating,it is true to say that if we have depleted most of our oil to the point we are at now, then bio will not stop us going dry as without lubes the conbustion engine has had it.
bio is purely a greener method of fueling diesel engines and rudolf diesel when revealing the diesel engine for the first time wasn't running on diesel he was using a mix of stuff. i would not run a td5 on bio as i don't know anything about the engine as i have a bah humbug approach to the new fangled thing but would not have a drama running 300 tdi or nat aspireated on it.i personally have increased my mileage or k'age by 150 k's.
my viewpoint would be that bio may well be excellent in a bullet proof na lump as that is my experience to suggest it's gutless is nuts as if made to perfect specs it has a higher setane than diesel, i understand you don't like the stuff but what are you going to do if oil does run out?
i reckon on that basis car values would be about nil.
i understand your arguement but think we should be a little more open minded to options as i said it is not the be all and end all but an option

[zelko]

Could you explain what you mean by using more to achieve less, I am confused by this question.

With you second statement that we use more filters, yes we do BUT only for the FIRST AND SECOND as to rid of all the crap that is left in the tank and fuel system by Dino diesel, after the second filter is changed you go back to normal fiter change intervals.

The TD5 that my mate drives has been running on 100% BIO for almost 12 months now, he drives it every day and on the weekends he tows a tandem trailer around collecting used vege oil from his customers, combined total of trailer and vege oil is a minimum weight of 1000 kilos.

Your next question about data, we don't have any data on this issue, we feel that there is to much data that contradict each other so we don't read them, we make our own minds up by doing our own tests which is run the car, if it runs ok then fine, if it stops then find out why and fix the problem, you may not agree with this way and we understand that.

We are in the Brisbane City Council and thier by-laws state that you can make and store upto 500 litres of Bio and oil at any one time which is no problem as my mate sells Bio as quick as he makes it. He has also had the EPA out and they have no problems with it.

You say that technicians have lots of problems with bio in CR and Unitary injectors and that a large number of TD5 have failed in Bio countries like France. If you have documentation from them that states that these problems were caused solely by using 100% BIO NOT a blend but 100% BIO then it would be much appreciated if you could show us all.

If Biodiesel is made to specification then it actually has a higher setane than diesel, but saying that yes in some cars they do lose some power but in diesels you look for more torque than power and we have found in my TDI and in the TD5 that the torque is different then when using diesel, if you come to a hill and using diesel it tends to be hold at the bottom of the hill but drops off by the time you get to the top but running on Bio it is less on the bottom and holds on better towards the top, as I said this is in our cars.
Our cars are actually are better on fuel consumption then when they were running on Dino diesel.
Biodiesel has more lubricity then Dinodiesel so I don't know how you come to that conclusion.
The chemicals we use is methenol and pot ash, which once you finish the cracking process then the by product you are left with is glycerin which is a soap, you can extact the methenol by another process to be able to use it again, the glycerin is great to use as hand wash, degeaser, and cause it is biodegradable you can even put it on your garden great for the soil.

I would like to know what you mean by being VERY VERY careful, this forum is for people to have a say on subjects that are brought up by others and if someone has a different opinion then others then I think they are intitled to it.

I think we should agree that we disagree on this matter.

[lardy]

mate totally correct on all counts but i couldn't be bothered to argue with peoples pre-conceived idea's thought i would outline the basics,
interestingly enough if you take some of your filtered oil and heat to probably around 50 you can soak the s@@t out of the filters and use them again, though again have only done it with na engine and not a precious td5

[dobbo]

There is a guy at work who was pro bio, he ran his non land rover product on B20 from new.........
























until he has recently had to replace his injector pump. $$$$ he no longer screams that not using the signage about not using Bio is a government conspiricy funded by the oil companies.

For the record I would use it, cautiously and as a last resort in an appropriate engine.

[lardy]

that is interesting, but we don't now the whole circumstance and he was not producing it himself,he was buying it from a servo i take it? we cant be sure of the quality of the fuel just because it's b20 doesn't mean its bio its a 20% mix also i am aware that the banjo sometimes has a round sieve kind of filter under it and if the actual fuel filter is a cheap generic one it can lend itself to allowing crap from there transferring to the injector pump.
Just cos fuel comes from a servo doesn't guarantee quality unfortunately, and i had previous experience of dino diesel making the old tractor run like a bag of old pants, i guess that there are instances that would escape the norm as in life.

[zelko]

I to had problems with dinodiesel way back before running on BIO, didn't that make the car run like a bag of ?, and that was from a BP servo. There was a servo from NSW also that was caught and fined for mixing kero with diesel and calling it BIO, that was a few years back, so I agree you can't guarantee you are getting good fuel from servos these days. They ( the oil refineries ) won't even tell us what additives they put in diesel to make it suitable to run on it.

Least making your own you know what goes in it.