Impromptu flight ended in spin

[Old Farang]

Hard to understand why people do things like this:

Impromptu flight ended in spin | Flight Safety Australia (https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2020/06/impromptu-flight-ended-in-spin/)

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) has published the final chapter in a sad story: the crash of a Russian Yak-9 replica warbird (https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2018/aair/ao-2018-061/) that killed its pilot.

On the day of the crash, 7 September 2018, the pilot had booked an instructional flight in the warbird, but when the Yak-9 arrived at Latrobe regional Airport in Victoria it was missing documentation because of the canopy being opened in flight. The pilot and instructor agreed the aircraft should not be flown without its documentation and the pilot suggested taxi practice, which the instructor agreed to. After starting and running up the aircraft the pilot took off.

[superquag]

Reminds me of a vintage bomber in England, doing high speed taxis at an air-show. This one ended better.
YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGjPu6DPzWU)

[Hugh Jars]

Reminds me of a vintage bomber in England, doing high speed taxis at an air-show. This one ended better.
YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGjPu6DPzWU)
The difference is Mr. Prothero was a highly experienced pilot on type, whereas the YAK pilot was not. The difference in pilot attitudes is quite remarkable. [smilebigeye]

[JDNSW]

This is an example, all too common, of an accident resulting from someone who thinks their skills or knowledge are better than they actually are. With the corollary that "rules are for others, I'm better than them!"

[Old Farang]

This is an example, all too common, of an accident resulting from someone who thinks their skills or knowledge are better than they actually are. With the corollary that "rules are for others, I'm better than them!"
Yes, I lost my helicopter to such a "pilot". His ego far surpassed his ability. And to make it worse he had an instructor rating and had been teaching impressionable young blokes in the same manner.

[superquag]

Agreed. "Attitude" of both Pilot and aeroplane was drummed into me during Instruction.

When the little plastic card arrived... I took myself down to a GA flying school and did some aerobatic flights with them. - The rationale being "i'm an older novice pilot who is likely to ignorantly make fatal mistakes, so need to - Safely - get familiar with... 'mistakes' .

Same principal applies to road vehicles, and I'm a better driver...thanks to the Little Plastic Card.[smilebigeye]

[Hugh Jars]

We used to put all airline cadets through an aerobatics rating at the end of their training. It should be mandatory for everyone.

[JDNSW]

Haven't done an aerobatics rating, but learned to fly when spin recovery was part of the syllabus!

I have never needed to use it for an unintended spin, and it is a long, long time since I flew anything that was approved for intentional spins. I think the last one may have been my Auster.

[superquag]

My CFI at the time owned a 'Gentleman's Biplane' - and newly minted pilots were taken up to experience all the naughty things LSA aircraft never-ever do. [bigsmile]

Sorry, can't think of it's name.
162570

[3toes]

We used to put all airline cadets through an aerobatics rating at the end of their training. It should be mandatory for everyone.

Not sure I want my A380 pilot showing off to the stewardess

[Hugh Jars]

Not sure I want my A380 pilot showing off to the stewardess
I don't think you'll ever need to worry about the A180 (A380) again.

Google 'jet upset recovery' and all will be answered. Aerobatics is a precursor. This is a big-ticket item in airline recurrent simulator training nowadays, in light of several high profile crashes recently that may have been avoided had the technique been used [smilebigeye]

[JDNSW]

My CFI at the time owned a 'Gentleman's Biplane' - and newly minted pilots were taken up to experience all the naughty things LSA aircraft never-ever do. [bigsmile]

Sorry, can't think of it's name.
162570

The flight school where I leared did all their ab initio training in Victas - which were approved for aerobatics, and most of the instructors were happy to demonstrate this to new students whether they asked or not. And spin recovery was part of the curriculum, as I mentioned above.

[101RRS]

You could spin a Piper Tomahawk and I did that as part of my basic PPL. Later I did a tail dragger and constant speed endorsement so I could do a aerobatics endorsement in a Super Decathalon. Was all good fun but did show up the need to fully secure things before flying upside down - including shirt pockets. Rolls and loops were all ok being positive G but when I was being taught how to fly inverted, all the 50c coins fell out of my shirt pocket landing on the Perspex roof - instructor had to take over while I tried to recover the coins - had to then land to collect those coins that I could not get back.

We did not do any outside loops and I did see a Super Decathalon on Youtube doing one and I am glad we did not do it - a bit scary.

Oh the Super Decathalon was written off after I flew in it in a high speed ground loop and when driving to my Mum's place in Newcastle, the 182 I used to fly in for a lot of my cross country works was sitting upside down on the traffic island on the Pacific Highway next to Belmont air strip - not sure if it landed short coming in from the east or whether it was an over run when landing from the west.

In my flying as aircrew or privately, the only thing that ever happened was a cabin depressurisation but lots of things seemed to happen to aircraft after I had been in them.

Garry

[JDNSW]

......
Oh the Super Decathalon was written off after I flew in it in a high speed ground loop and when driving to my Mum's place in Newcastle, the 182 I used to fly in for a lot of my cross country works was sitting upside down on the traffic island on the Pacific Highway next to Belmont air strip - not sure if it landed short coming in from the east or whether it was an over run when landing from the west.

In my flying as aircrew or privately, the only thing that ever happened was a cabin depressurisation but lots of things seemed to happen to aircraft after I had been in them.

Garry

I have not flown a Super Decathalon, but the Decathalon I flew had the tamest ground handling of any taildragger I have flown. The nastiest was the C180 I owned, but even it was not too bad once you got used to it.

Only real problems I have had flying were when I had to make a precautionary landing at a a strip in PNG that was not on the map, after running out of VMC, and when I made a forced landing at Wagga when the AA-5 I was flying dropped a valve.

[rick130]

The flight school where I leared did all their ab initio training in Victas - which were approved for aerobatics, and most of the instructors were happy to demonstrate this to new students whether they asked or not. And spin recovery was part of the curriculum, as I mentioned above.The aero club at Camden had a 152 Aerobat when I was there about 1990.
About 1/2hr in, Andrew my instructor would say "well you've nailed that, want to do some aerobatics?" [emoji23]
Except it took forever to get enough altitude to do anything...[emoji849][emoji23]

[JDNSW]

A bit like the time I flew up here from Melbourne for a weekend - the only plane I could get was a 150. Was OK going up, but the southerly was still blowing when I was coming back. I had to land twice for fuel!

[rick130]

A bit like the time I flew up here from Melbourne for a weekend - the only plane I could get was a 150. Was OK going up, but the southerly was still blowing when I was coming back. I had to land twice for fuel!
The one aeroplane where you can really see the difference between your IAS and ground speed.
Are we actually moving? [emoji23]

[Hugh Jars]

You could spin a Piper Tomahawk and I did that as part of my basic PPL...

Garry
Did you ever look at the tail as you entered the stall/spin, Garry? [biggrin] I spent quite a few hours teaching ab-initio in the Traumahawk [bawl][bawl]

John R.

[101RRS]

Did you ever look at the tail as you entered the stall/spin, Garry? [biggrin]

No I was too scared - always had a scary feeling in the Tomahawk with that T tail - same in the Beech Skipper but didn't spin it. Though to be fair the Tomahawk was easy to fly and I had no issues except the seats kept sliding back on take off and the doors would open by them selves.

[superquag]

Let me guess..... with all that surface area on top of the tail... it's all going to shake rattle & roll ? [bigsad][bigsad][bigsad][bigsad]

[Old Farang]

The one aeroplane where you can really see the difference between your IAS and ground speed.
Are we actually moving? [emoji23]
Ah well, if you were to fly "proper" aircraft(helicopters) you can have airspeed and zero ground speed! During the Americas Cup yacht races off of Fremantle all the helicopters had to line up and hover at 1,000 ft just behind the start line. The start was into wind and by that time in the afternoon the "Fremantle Doctor" sea "breeze" was well established. I recall airspeed fluctuating around 25 to 30 knots while being stationary. [thumbsupbig]

[Hugh Jars]

Let me guess..... with all that surface area on top of the tail... it's all going to shake rattle & roll ? [bigsad][bigsad][bigsad]
It would twist and turn like Elvis. There was an AD to strengthen the tail after a couple were lost.
Spin training was [B]NOT one of my favurite lessons to deliver in the PA38...

[Old Farang]

It would twist and turn like Elvis. There was an AD to strengthen the tail after a couple were lost.
Spin training was NOT one of my favurite lessons to deliver in the PA38...
I trained on Tomahawks also, amongst a couple of others. Strangely enough I have a photo of it somewhere taxing past my helicopter.
This particular aircraft was owned by the CFI and he would not allow spins past the incipient stage.

[101RRS]

Let me guess..... with all that surface area on top of the tail... it's all going to shake rattle & roll ? [bigsad][bigsad][bigsad][bigsad]

Actually in accident records the tail did not statistically show to be an issue. In general flying the Tomahawk was safer than a Cessna 150/2 but where accidents were the cause of spins and stalls it was many times "unsafe" than the Cessna - this is because subject to height in a Cessna if you find yourself in a spin - just taking your hands and feet off the controls it recovers itself (the fail safe position) but the Tomahawk being designed to be a spinable trainer it was deigned not to self recover [bigsad] - so required input from the pilot to recover - as a result their crash rate when doing this was much worse than equivalent Cessnas. I suspect that this was probably not in spin training but in normal solo work where trainees got themselves in stall situations and were do rough with the controls or were using ailerons to control and went into a spin - in a Cessna hands off and generally ok.

Garry

[superquag]

It would twist and turn like Elvis. There was an AD to strengthen the tail after a couple were lost.
Spin training was NOT one of my favurite lessons to deliver in the PA38...

Wonder if the Robin 2160 has a 'flexible' rear end.... Had a peculiar experience during spin-recovery, as rudder went iin - stick very forcibly wanted to osscilate fully DOWN then UP. did a couple of cycles before I got both hands on it.... Instructor had never seen that before. Still dunno, and stall-turns straight after went ok, so nothing bent or broken !

- Plane still flying... [bigwhistle]

(actually, had a fun-flight in both that school's Robins... and neither has since suffered an "Unscheduled Dis-assembley", [bigwhistle] [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] )

Edit: "... but in normal solo work where trainees got themselves in stall situations and were too rough with the controls or were using ailerons to control and went into a spin..."

Or ego / inexperience getting the better of them... as I was very much cogniszant of probably tripping me up sooner rather than later; - Hence the extra "training" with aeros, get used to seeing how thin the line betwixt Complacent Pilot and 'Oh faecal matter' pilot. Sobering.

[Gordie]

Cessna - this is because subject to height in a Cessna if you find yourself in a spin - just taking your hands and feet off the controls it recovers itself (the fail safe position) but the Tomahawk being designed to be a spinable trainer it was deigned not to self recover [bigsad] - so required input from the pilot to recover - as a result their crash rate when doing this was much worse than equivalent Cessnas. I suspect that this was probably not in spin training but in normal solo work where trainees got themselves in stall situations and were do rough with the controls or were using ailerons to control and went into a spin - in a Cessna hands off and generally ok.

Garry Dead right mate, as a 17yo trainee pilot, went up solo to practice stalls a week after having learnt them with an instructor. Luckily I was 3000ft above the sea...because twice I mucked up the recovery and found myself in a spin(cessna 152). Somehow I worked out how to recover, or maybe the 152 did it for me, before I met my watery end. I had a bit of an aversion to wing-drop stalls after that though!

[Hugh Jars]

Actually in accident records the tail did not statistically show to be an issue. In general flying the Tomahawk was safer than a Cessna 150/2 but where accidents were the cause of spins and stalls it was many times "unsafe" than the Cessna - this is because subject to height in a Cessna if you find yourself in a spin - just taking your hands and feet off the controls it recovers itself (the fail safe position) but the Tomahawk being designed to be a spinable trainer it was deigned not to self recover [bigsad] - so required input from the pilot to recover - as a result their crash rate when doing this was much worse than equivalent Cessnas. I suspect that this was probably not in spin training but in normal solo work where trainees got themselves in stall situations and were do rough with the controls or were using ailerons to control and went into a spin - in a Cessna hands off and generally ok.

Garry

Hi Garry,
The Tomahawk did actually self-recover - it just took a few more rotations. That was the first thing the CFI taught me in instructor school. The demonstration was done from 6000' in the Sydney training area. From memory, it took over 1500' before it transitioned to a spiral dive. The recovery from that would see about a total of 2-3000' altitude loss from start to finish of the whole manoeuvre (depending on technique).

I can't compare it to the C150/152, as I have very little experience on them, and never got to spin one.

John R.

[101RRS]

Hi Garry,
The Tomahawk did actually self-recover - it just took a few more rotations.

Ok didn't know that - was that before or after they changed the wing in the the early 80s because too many were crashing in spin practice.

Didn't mind doing aerobatics (not in a P38) but did not like doing spins so did not do them just for the fun of it.

[JDNSW]

I started in Victas, but the only aircraft I have actually spun (as far as I recall) are those, the Auster J-5F, Decathalon, and DH-82A. I may have spun the Beech-23, and possibly C-150, but I don't remember for sure.

[4bee]

Deleted. Double Post.

[4bee]

Not sure I want my A380 pilot showing off to the stewardess


I should think so, there'd be Gin Cocktails all over the shop.