MT vs AT vs HT in sand

[Bulletman]

Gday all,

Does anyone think 1 particular type of tread performs better on the D3/D4 than others.

i have just been in serious soft sand with MT tyres and I didn’t think they performed that well at all , although this was my first real foray into sand with the D3. I have lots of sand driving experience and did the DSC off etc.
It just seemed the MT tread worked against the sand and I seemed to be pushing rather than rolling over the sand

Bulletman

[libertyts]

Yup, a slightly less aggressive AT is my choice for sand if I can. In theory good HT's can be good in sand as well. However, airing HT's down is a bit risky really, they aren't designed for it at all.

So the AT's are the choice.

As you have experienced, MT's tend to dig down into the sand. In the end that's exactly what they are designed to do in mud to get to a more solid surface below. I have run MT's on sand many times and have done fine by airing down a little further than I normally would. However it still isn't a "perfect" experience.

In the end, the D3/4 are fairly heavy, which certainly makes tyre selection a bit more critical in the soft stuff.

If I was made of money I would love to have a set of rims for each style and swap out depending on what I'm doing. Unfortunately, the missus disagrees and thinks eating and clothing the children is more important than situational optimal tyre selection!?!?!

[trout1105]

My own personal preference is for an aggressive pattern AT for sand especially for damp sand as they tend to "Shed" the sand better and provide a better grip.
I have been running Mickey Thompson ATZ P3's on my D2a for about 3 years now and find them Much better in sand than the less aggressive pattern on the Yokohama Geolander AT's that they replaced.
HT tyres are fantastic on the bitumen But I personally find them completely inadequate once you leave the black top and find them particularly useless in the soft sand we Western Australians have on our beaches.
Whatever tyres you are running on sand pay particular attention to the tyre pressures you are running because this one simple thing will save you a lot of time on a shovel or maxtracks[thumbsupbig]

[Tombie]

Let’s first air this (again)... A D3 is NO HEAVIER than a Cruiser etc...

My best performing tyres in Sand were/are Baja Claws, followed by aggressive MTs.

HTs are crap unless you go full Balloon.


If your MTs were struggling, what pressures were you on (and roughly how laden was the vehicle)...

And what box were you in?

[Bulletman]

Let’s first air this (again)... A D3 is NO HEAVIER than a Cruiser etc...

My best performing tyres in Sand were/are Baja Claws, followed by aggressive MTs.

HTs are crap unless you go full Balloon.


If your MTs were struggling, what pressures were you on (and roughly how laden was the vehicle)...

And what box were you in?

gday Tombie,

18psi , fully loaded, including approx 160 Ltrs fuel, me and the boss no other passengers . I was following a prado with ATs and he was bogging and I had to slow down which is when the tyres really felt they struggled to stay on the sand rather than dig in.

sand mode , DSC off and driving in sport mode 2nd gear high range.

Bulletman

[Slunnie]

Let’s first air this (again)... A D3 is NO HEAVIER than a Cruiser etc...

My best performing tyres in Sand were/are Baja Claws, followed by aggressive MTs.

HTs are crap unless you go full Balloon.


If your MTs were struggling, what pressures were you on (and roughly how laden was the vehicle)...

And what box were you in?

Totally agree. I find MT's provide a lot of drive on the sand compared to HT pattern tyres. They will get you further than HT tyres which just spin. I havent found digging down in MT pattern tyres to be a problem, they don't seem to get stuck much like the others, just set your pressures correctly.

[Piddler]

Yep,
here in Tassie on the west coast, a lot of mud, sand and wet roads.

You cant go past MT tyres for all.

Better all round. As the others have said, let them down to 18 off road and see how you go from there.
If its really soft you may have to go to 12.

Much better than an A\T in all types of terrain.
Especially on wet roads.
I would never buy an A/T.

Some one who has 35 years experience and hundreds of thousands of km.

Cheers
Piddler

[gavanchua]

Is everyone here running MT on 18’s only or are some of you on 19’s MT? Currently on AT’s and have yet to test out any tracks yet. Did some tracks in wolombi when I had Pirelli scorpion HT’s. Not too bad since most of it was dry. Was also running around 22psi all round. Some sandy bits got a little slippery on the HT’s but it kept going thanks to the terrain response system. Just lucky not to pop the beads at some of the trails there.

.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200913/a57cb40e8a939345072e0e6a5dfb4417.jpg

[Tombie]

gday Tombie,

18psi , fully loaded, including approx 160 Ltrs fuel, me and the boss no other passengers . I was following a prado with ATs and he was bogging and I had to slow down which is when the tyres really felt they struggled to stay on the sand rather than dig in.

sand mode , DSC off and driving in sport mode 2nd gear high range.

Bulletman

Thanks for the details. You’ll find the D3/4 like to be in low box and a higher gear in tougher conditions.

[Red90]

Air pressure is the number one most important thing with sand. Everything else is of much lesser importance.

Aggressive treads do slightly better when compared side by side at the same pressures. But they do use a bit more power.

[ramblingboy42]

I'm with Tombie and Piddler.

Couple f year ago on Simpson Desert Crossing two of us ran fat Khumo KL71 MT's.

We ran at 15 psi and appeared to just be doing it so much easier than the others , a mixture of Toyotas/LandRovers/Rangers/Luxes on a mixture of AT tyres.

[matti4556]

- there's sand..... and then there's sand - all a bit different around the country, and it changes weekly.
Up here at the moment on the Fraser Island barge entry spit at Inskip Point its air down as far as you dare and give it a "medium/Well" amount of momentum.
Some other times its "highway pressures and walking pace will do"
I heard last week the Simpson crossing (French line) is quite easy. But there's some different sand there too.
But like Red90 said and others have mentioned above - air down is your friend.
On the same beach over many years, my 300TDi Disco was best with HT - ok with AT, and crap on MT's in the sand.
The D3 doesn't seem to care too much because its a different beast.
Matti
Yeahy - 300th Post!

[BigJon]

The Goodyear Wrangler Duratrac (aggressive A/T) I have on my Vogue at the moment worked well on Fraser Island, even towing a heavy camper trailer. 18 psi all round and no issues at all.

[DiscoMick]

The Hankook ATs on our Defender work well on sand aired down to 18-20, but they are tall tyres being 235/85/16s, so airing down produces a looonng footprint.
Length is better than width I reckon as the weight of the vehicle packs the sand down hard in the wheeltracks.

[justinc]

Not a D3 but when I had 255 85 16 bfg mt (good old pattern not the KM2) on my range, at 12 psi in WA summer soft sand they were fantastic!

[scarry]

Yes,the muddies on the sons Puma do really well in the soft sand,aired down on 18PSi,it just keeps chugging along.

He just drives around the others that are stuck,the look on their faces is amazing.

[Gav 110]

Length is better than width.

I’d have to agree with Mick, reminds me of a saying an old tradie taught me when I was a boy “long and thin slips right in”[emoji108]
The 235 or 255/85 heaps better on sand than a 285
The bigger the bow wave of sand your pushing the more fuel your burning [emoji12]

[Slunnie]

Wide tyres are the go. Floatation tyres.

Wide tyres provide more floatation so you don't sink in the sand and dont get the big wedge a skinny gives. They also have more tread on the sand for providing drive

[Phil B]

Now I’m confused
Two totally contradictory posts
So what is it fat or skinny?

[W&KO]

Now I’m confused
Two totally contradictory posts
So what is it fat or skinny?

LOL....

I’ve done plenty of sand driving....never been stuck, maybe I haven’t been in the absolute softest/super fine sand but to date.

I’ve had HT, AT and MT....235/85/16, 7.5x16, 10R15 and what ever standard size on a classic rangie.

In my experience tyre pressures are the main factor.....

Cannot comment on wide v skinny.

I do see a lot of lots of different tyres fitted to cars on the beach wide, tall, fat skinny and the majority all cruise around without issue.

Off all the cars I’ve helped, once I convince them to lower their tyre pressures they generally get going without any assistance.

back to the OP, I have driven a late model landie on the sand so cannot help on setting.

[Jay1809]

This confirms from my experience.

Beach 4x4 Driving Tips | Beginners Guide - YouTube (https://youtu.be/JWoaF3sBlE0)

Tyre pressures.

Just saying............

[Tombie]

It’s not just tyre pressure nowadays.

It’s meeting that AND the electronic requirements of the vehicle.

Matching them is easy, and once done sand driving isn’t a problem.

[Red90]

I’d have to agree with Mick, reminds me of a saying an old tradie taught me when I was a boy “long and thin slips right in”[emoji108]
The 235 or 255/85 heaps better on sand than a 285
The bigger the bow wave of sand your pushing the more fuel your burning [emoji12]

You are missing the point though that the 285s can be run at a lower pressure. When you do that, then they will do much better.

For real comparisons you need to be somewhere that has variable grades from easy to impossible and try different tyres and pressures. That is where you see what is best. I’ve done this and pressure beats everything. Larger tyres allow lower pressures so can always do better if you use them the right way.

That said a longer narrower footprint is better than a wide short one. But the only way to get there is bigger diameter.

[Milton477]

I wonder why the armies around the world who operate in sand run tall & skinny tyres with a non aggressive beaded pattern tread on their vehicles.
If muddies are the go in sand then why are they called muddies & not sandies?
Just wondering...[bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

Muddies are designed to dig holes, which is a bad thing on sand.

[PhilipA]

In Saudi Arabia, Nissan used to offer the option of aircraft type tyres with a round profile and longitudinal grooves only.

These were for oil exploration vehicles.

Would be crap on road but great on sand.

I read test in 4x4 Australia where they compared Muds and ATs on the same vehicle at equal pressures on a dune. they stopped within 2 feet of each other.

I had no trouble on Stockton with my RRC towing my camper on the dry sand on BFG ATs at AFAIR 15PSI and was easily able to climb out the exit. Mind you I was in Low 2nd and 3rdat over 3000RPM.

I got bogged on Blacksmiths in a Toyota FJ cruiser when it ran out of ground clearance. had to drop to about 12PSI and be snatched out. It was on 33inch BFG ATs but to me the difference is centre located diffs which get hung up whereas LR has offset diffs. It's the clearance that is the main issue to me.

Regards PhilipA

[scarry]

In the old days,with series vehicles and the like, many ran aircraft tyres in sand.Ballooned well at low pressure and with virtually no tread.
But these vehicles were much lighter and underpowered compared to what we have now.
In fact once loaded,these older vehicles didn't do well in sand at all.

These days,as Tombie pointed out,electronics take over,and we have generally a lot more weight and power.
Thats why MT's,at low pressures work well in sand.

[Red90]

I wonder why the armies around the world who operate in sand run tall & skinny tyres with a non aggressive beaded pattern tread on their vehicles.
If muddies are the go in sand then why are they called muddies & not sandies?
Just wondering...[bigwhistle]

Low tread tyres are more foolproof and you need foolproof when dealing with grunts. Mud tyres offer a bit more traction. I’ve run the tests side by side. But if you spin them you dig down very fast. For that reason you need to know what you are doing.

They run skinny because they are safer for staying on track if you don’t know what you are doing. They are not trying to be the best off road. They are just trying to do a job.

[Tombie]

Muddies are designed to dig holes, which is a bad thing on sand.

Never tried it hey.... [emoji1787]

Muddies work magnificent on sand. I even had a friend who was a non-believer bring his Centipedes to Robe. We fitted them, aired them down and off he went.

Then I told him to stomp on the throttle - started digging.

I’ve climbed a Coffin Bay Dune at idle on Muddies... none of the AT guys could get close with a run up!

Simply, if you are good at throttle control and reading your vehicle - muddies will make sand work easy. If you think the throttle in binary - problems will occur [emoji41]

[ozscott]

For me the approach angle of the tyre and longtitudal footprint are key in sand. So plenty of sidewall and airing down helps there. I have seen vehicles with wide low profile tyres aired down and just hopeless...think pushing a log along a beach versus rolling a bike tyre along the beach. I have snatched plenty out of their wallow holes.

I have 31 inch on the D2 on 16's and these are a little better on the beach than a 31 inch on 18 inch rims when both are aired down (that's the theory and from my experience with D2's where I was camping on an island years ago that ran 18's)

My current ride has 31 inch as standard via 18 inch rims and I may go to 32 later on using the same rim to give me more sidewall which of course doesn't just help on sand. Apart from rocks, it makes the ride nicer (although the extra sidewall plushness is offset a bit if you go LT over Passenger rated) but you lose a little handling. First world problems.

Cheers

[NavyDiver]

Toasted a few HT during some fun in the sand while in WA last year. They did not cope at all with lowing pressure needed to move in sand. Had AT and MTs on and both worked well at low pressures in Sand. Muds a whole world of MT only I think. Agree with Toomie re low range higher gear. Did test the AT replacement I put on my D3 in Ceduna in some soft SA sand. No issues at all.

[ozscott]

Yep low range on soft sand.

As for tread, HT floats nicely but the problem comes when climbing or trying to move (little climb) out of wheel ruts...with HT you have to slow right down then accelerate fairly hard to climb out. With AT it grips and pulls out at higher speeds very well.

Cheers

[DiscoMick]

Never tried it hey.... [emoji1787]

Muddies work magnificent on sand. I even had a friend who was a non-believer bring his Centipedes to Robe. We fitted them, aired them down and off he went.

Then I told him to stomp on the throttle - started digging.

I’ve climbed a Coffin Bay Dune at idle on Muddies... none of the AT guys could get close with a run up!

Simply, if you are good at throttle control and reading your vehicle - muddies will make sand work easy. If you think the throttle in binary - problems will occur [emoji41]Had BFG MTs on the D1, but I think the current Hankook ATs on the Defender are better on sand, although the sizes are different.
Sidewall stiffness and the length of tread when aired down are the main differences I think.
The BFG MTs were wider with very stiff sidewalls and had to be dropped to 15-16 psi on the dunes in The Simpson and the chunky tread dug big holes.
The Hankook ATs are taller tyres with softer sidewalls and smaller tread blocks and they work well at about 20 psi.
Just my experiences. Everyone has a different opinion.

[Bulletman]

Thanks All - interesting reading , think my biggest issue was the way i drove , sounds like i was a bit heavy with the loud peddle and dug myself in. The fact the twin locked prado had dug trenches didnt help as when i stopped i just happened to be in his trench he just got out of.

Lesson learnt and more practice with the D3 needed i think. considering how well i was going compared to the prado i was impressed , just a shame there was no room to go past as i could have easily.

Bulletman

[Slunnie]

Never tried it hey.... [emoji1787]

Muddies work magnificent on sand. I even had a friend who was a non-believer bring his Centipedes to Robe. We fitted them, aired them down and off he went.

Then I told him to stomp on the throttle - started digging.

I’ve climbed a Coffin Bay Dune at idle on Muddies... none of the AT guys could get close with a run up!

Simply, if you are good at throttle control and reading your vehicle - muddies will make sand work easy. If you think the throttle in binary - problems will occur [emoji41]

Yes! I've run Simex Jungle Trekkers at Stockton and Fraser Island and they're both no problems. Actually they chattered on the beach sand at Fraser which surprised me. I think on soft sand they do really float and drive, but not as well as a big fat tyre with a lot of edge. On harder sand they actually grab and can get into a spin/grip situation pretty easily. When deflating you just count the number of lugs on the ground. :lol2:

[pbullen]

Yup, a slightly less aggressive AT is my choice for sand if I can. In theory good HT's can be good in sand as well. However, airing HT's down is a bit risky really, they aren't designed for it at all.

So the AT's are the choice.

As you have experienced, MT's tend to dig down into the sand. In the end that's exactly what they are designed to do in mud to get to a more solid surface below. I have run MT's on sand many times and have done fine by airing down a little further than I normally would. However it still isn't a "perfect" experience.

In the end, the D3/4 are fairly heavy, which certainly makes tyre selection a bit more critical in the soft stuff.

If I was made of money I would love to have a set of rims for each style and swap out depending on what I'm doing. Unfortunately, the missus disagrees and thinks eating and clothing the children is more important than situational optimal tyre selection!?!?!
Hi, i have a spare set of 18 inch D3 rims.. Sitting for 3 yrs now, going cheap..

[libertyts]

Hi, i have a spare set of 18 inch D3 rims.. Sitting for 3 yrs now, going cheap..Cheeky bugger! Hahaha. I'm not up for getting in trouble today. :)

[Dagilmo]

Thanks All - interesting reading , think my biggest issue was the way i drove , sounds like i was a bit heavy with the loud peddle and dug myself in. The fact the twin locked prado had dug trenches didnt help as when i stopped i just happened to be in his trench he just got out of.

Lesson learnt and more practice with the D3 needed i think. considering how well i was going compared to the prado i was impressed , just a shame there was no room to go past as i could have easily.

Bulletman

You certainly could go to lower pressure. I go straight to 15 and have been down to 10 when needed. That was in my 3 with kaymar bar- two spare wheels and long range tank so a bit a weight and it was awesome on sand. The 4 will be better with the extra power just haven't yet had it in the same soft deep sand to compare.

[DiscoMick]

Apart from lowering pressures, it's also smart to pick a set of wheel tracks and stay in them, as previous vehicles have compressed the sand.

[landyluvver]

believe profile and pressure and sidewall flex is far more important than pattern
at the end of the day it boils down to the size of the footprint.
found that the smoother the tyre, the more it builds a wave in front of the tyre which is far less noticeable with a MT. i have had far greater success with MT on sand than any other tread but do have to emphasise that some MT tyres have very stiff sidewalls and tend to perform less successfully on sand. i also found the 17" D3 2006 goes further than Discos on 18 or 19" rims.

[Bulletman]

believe profile and pressure and sidewall flex is far more important than pattern
at the end of the day it boils down to the size of the footprint.
found that the smoother the tyre, the more it builds a wave in front of the tyre which is far less noticeable with a MT. i have had far greater success with MT on sand than any other tread but do have to emphasise that some MT tyres have very stiff sidewalls and tend to perform less successfully on sand. i also found the 17" D3 2006 goes further than Discos on 18 or 19" rims.

I have an off road set of 17' rims which i was using with 245/70/17 cooper STT . i am guessing that i need more practice with the D3 wizardry than my previous experience which was all just hi /low and away you go.

Bulletman

[ozscott]

I have an off road set of 17' rims which i was using with 245/70/17 cooper STT . i am guessing that i need more practice with the D3 wizardry than my previous experience which was all just hi /low and away you go.

BulletmanPlenty of threads on here about rowing a D3 through sand. The main tip given out is to ensure DSC is off and keep turning it off when restarting the vehicle. There are a few others from memory but DSC being on is the big issue. Cheers

[HarryO]

Been caught out forgetting to disable DSC many times. Wonder why LR didnÂ’t just make it a given that DSC is Automatically disabled in Sand mode?

Can anyone think of a sandy terrain where you would need DSC? I canÂ’t...

Agree with others that side wall flex and tyre pressure are more important the tyre tread..

cheers..

[ozscott]

If i put my Triton with Superselect II in low range it automatically disables DSC which is a good idea.

Cheers

[scarry]

If i put my Triton with Superselect II in low range it automatically disables DSC which is a good idea.

Cheers

That is a great idea.

And i thought LR were the innovators?[bighmmm]

[Bulletman]

Plenty of threads on here about rowing a D3 through sand. The main tip given out is to ensure DSC is off and keep turning it off when restarting the vehicle. There are a few others from memory but DSC being on is the big issue. Cheers

Not really sure i want to row my D3 anywhere , let alone in sand , altho i have used a shovel as an oar before [tonguewink]

I did remember that DSC enables every restart and i did have it off , i just think i should have let the wizardry help more before i got a bit greedy with the loud peddle.

Im sure i will forget most of it next time ,and i wont blame the tyres or the car for my failure.

Bulletman

[Bulletman]

I guess i should also remember i have the GOE rods fitted , not that i was going fast enough to get the lowering issue, but the extra height possibly may have got me out of the situation i was in... better write myself some sand driving notes...

Bulletman