Just when you thought the C130 was a large A/C to go Fire Hedgehopping.

[4bee]

747 inbound - Fire Aviation



Also using a few Lockheed L-188 Electras (https://fireaviation.com/2020/09/11/747-inbound/)

[JDNSW]

Had a DC-10 over here as the first response to the fire last summer!

[Old Farang]

I wonder how long it takes, and just where they load the 747!

I would be reasonably happy loading a helicopter:

Photos of helicopters refilling at the Saddle Ridge Fire - Fire Aviation (https://fireaviation.com/2019/10/13/photos-of-helicopters-refilling-at-the-saddle-ridge-fire/)

But these fellows can have it all to themselves!

Video of Super Scoopers refilling at Lake Castaic - Fire Aviation (https://fireaviation.com/2019/10/11/video-of-super-scoopers-refilling-at-lake-castaic/)

I used to go to work offshore in a Grumman Albatross in another life, and that was more than a handful once it contacted the water!

[PhilipA]

Here is a video
Boeing 747 Drops Retardant on California’s Valley Fire (https://www.news.com.au/national/boeing-747-drops-retardant-on-californias-valley-fire/video/e9ba5c2254d86debe3cfe8afb1777ebf)
Regards PhilipA

[4bee]

I wonder how long it takes, and just where they load the 747!

I would be reasonably happy loading a helicopter:

Photos of helicopters refilling at the Saddle Ridge Fire - Fire Aviation (https://fireaviation.com/2019/10/13/photos-of-helicopters-refilling-at-the-saddle-ridge-fire/)

But these fellows can have it all to themselves!

Video of Super Scoopers refilling at Lake Castaic - Fire Aviation (https://fireaviation.com/2019/10/11/video-of-super-scoopers-refilling-at-lake-castaic/)

I used to go to work offshore in a Grumman Albatross in another life, and that was more than a handful once it contacted the water!


SA Govt. was involved in a Demo of a couple of scoopers that visited Adelaide a number of years ago & they apparently did successful Trials from a couple of reservoirs. The scooping runs were more than adequate bearing in mind the geography of the two Reservoirs, but nothing like as shown in that Video.

Result? A small minded big noise from the Water Supply mob here had the audacity to ask "In the event of a fire who was going to pay for the Water?" Until that point it was free from the heavens. Anyway, it seems the CFS lost interest because of hierarchical (sp?) disagreement within the organisation & so it never eventuated, but they still seem to be quite happy to use bucket drop RW & small fixed wing tankers & "Elvis" type a/c.


Then the Greenies got involved about scooping from either of our two gulfs & the use & effect of Salt Water on land & Forests. Sea scooping would have been ok on calm days but if a bit choppy they would need to load from a reservoir.

In the end it all got tooooo politcal I believe, so never moved forward & now Retardant is the way to go in many cases.


There was even talk that the a/c Wing be integrated in with the RAAF as a National Fleet & shared around as & when required.

But typically nothing ever eventuated.

[JDNSW]

This is where the scoopers come unstuck most places in Australia. For example, the fire here last summer, the only large body of water within cooee was Burrendong dam. But at the time, Burrendong was at around 1% capacity, and water was reserved for critical uses such as town water. Plus scooping from it would have got far too much in the way of bits of wood etc - when its that low the water is pretty bad - even if there was a long enough run. I think it is up round 30+% now, but we are not expecting a bad fire season this summer.

I'm pretty certain the DC-10 came from Richmond, and would have used Sydney water. The helicopters here used the Macquarie River I believe (the closer Talbragar was dry, as were all the close farm dams). I can't remember where the C-130 was refilling, possibly Dubbo, from town water

[Old Farang]

This is what frightens me about "scooping":

Air legend's fatal flight
Air legend's fatal flight | Newcastle Herald | Newcastle, NSW (https://www.newcastleherald.com.au/story/478451/air-legends-fatal-flight/#:~:text=HUNTER%20aviation%20legend%20Col%20Pay,of %20the%20lake%20and%20flipping.)

[4bee]

This is what frightens me about "scooping":

Air legend's fatal flight


Air legend's fatal flight | Newcastle Herald | Newcastle, NSW (https://www.newcastleherald.com.au/story/478451/air-legends-fatal-flight/#:~:text=HUNTER%20aviation%20legend%20Col%20Pay,of %20the%20lake%20and%20flipping.)


I remember when he went. Was it that long ago? Cripes! I can't see an Air Tractor being a suitable Scooper as compared to a "modern" dedicated a/c. I read where it was an AT802 so a fairly tough a/c by all accounts. Whether he had floats fitted I don't know.

Structurally different for a start so I wonder whether the constant & repetitive beating it would have taken played a big part in it's & Col Pay's demise. I have never seen an Accident Report on that incident but no doubt there is one.

Whereas the dedicated a/c were designed from the ground (or water) up. Especially the Air frame.

My informant on the SA Trials said he felt extremely confident & safe as he guided the crew around the Adelaide Hills & Reservoirs scooping & dropping as they went.

He was seated in the centre Jump seat. Due to the local Topography some of the approaches to the drink were at a fairly high angle but they got in and out ok with no problems.


Col Pay.https://www.theage.com.au/national/veteran-pilot-feared-dead-in-lake-crash-20071208-ge6h4n.html

Apparently testing Modifications
(https://www.theage.com.au/national/veteran-pilot-feared-dead-in-lake-crash-20071208-ge6h4n.html)

[Old Farang]

Whereas the dedicated a/c were designed from the ground (or water) up. Especially the Airframe
Yes, there are now aircraft designed just for fire fighting, but mostly twin engine and up. The old Piper Pawnee single engine top dressing/spraying aircraft was used very successfully for many years.

I believe Col Pay was testing some new type of "scoop", rather than the airframe.

50th Anniversary of Aerial Firefighting in Australia | Emergency Victoria (https://emergency.vic.gov.au/news-and-media/50th-anniversary-of-aerial-firefighting-in-australia)

https://safecom-files.s3.amazonaws.com/current/docs/aerial_firefighting.pdf#:~:text=Although%20other%2 0places%20in%20the,safely%20operate%20during%20day light%20hours.&text=fires%20are%20still%20extinguished%20by%20gro und%20crews.&text=The%20CFS%20currently%20contracts%2014,fire%2 0bombers%2C%20throughout%20South%20Australia.

[rick130]

This is what frightens me about "scooping":

Air legend's fatal flight
Air legend's fatal flight | Newcastle Herald | Newcastle, NSW (https://www.newcastleherald.com.au/story/478451/air-legends-fatal-flight/#:~:text=HUNTER%20aviation%20legend%20Col%20Pay,of %20the%20lake%20and%20flipping.)That's the incident I was thinking when you first questioned it.

I remember being told of a few SAR flights being lost over Burrogorang too from flying too close to the lake surface and suffering spatial disorientation

[Hugh Jars]

Yes, there are now aircraft designed just for fire fighting, but mostly twin engine and up. The old Piper Pawnee single engine top dressing/spraying aircraft was used very successfully for many years.

I believe Col Pay was testing some new type of "scoop", rather than the airframe.

Yes, that's what I thought. Essentially, Col was using an aircraft without floats and trying a risky technique where the wheels skipped across the surface of the water (like a flat stone, see video) and the attached scoops would fill the tank/s. I think for someone as skilled as Col, it would have been a relatively easy task in benign conditions. However, the technique is very risky for the average pilot. Throw in a bit of chop and the risk far outweighs the benefit. It's so easy for a wheel to dig in (as what happened with Col) and it's game over.
I couldn't envisage pilots doing such demanding flying to refill after having been on duty for over 10 hours.

Kevin Quinn World Record Plane Water Ski - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OAEGPVcvhU)

The 747 could land at any airport with a suitable pavement (or a pavement concession). Bearing in mind it would normally not have a lot of fuel onboard for fire bombing, so the aircraft would be relatively light compared to if it were doing an international flight. That would reduce the length of runway needed to operate.

I remember PAXing from Avalon to Tulla in 1992 after the airshow. There were about 50 of us onboard. The captain (Ray Heiniger) made a PA saying he was doing a "max performance takeoff' for the crowd. That involved a higher than usual flap setting and a standing start. We were only on the ground foe a few seconds. I suspect well under 1000m. That was impressive.

[PhilipA]

Boeing 747 Global SuperTanker at the LNU Lightning Complex fires - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXYYi2R94Es&frags=wn&ab_channel=wcolby)

They are crazy brave those 747 pilots..
Regards PhilipA

[4bee]

Yes, there are now aircraft designed just for fire fighting, but mostly twin engine and up. The old Piper Pawnee single engine top dressing/spraying aircraft was used very successfully for many years.

I believe Col Pay was testing some new type of "scoop", rather than the airframe.

50th Anniversary of Aerial Firefighting in Australia | Emergency Victoria (https://emergency.vic.gov.au/news-and-media/50th-anniversary-of-aerial-firefighting-in-australia)

https://safecom-files.s3.amazonaws.com/current/docs/aerial_firefighting.pdf#:~:text=Although%20other%2 0places%20in%20the,safely%20operate%20during%20day light%20hours.&text=fires%20are%20still%20extinguished%20by%20gro und%20crews.&text=The%20CFS%20currently%20contracts%2014,fire%2 0bombers%2C%20throughout%20South%20Australia.



That is what I read also, but my point about the airframe was that in modifying the Scooper was something else affected?

Seems Col Pay was a very experienced aviator & would have been very careful when Mods took place, but as you would be aware with your experiences it only takes a small problem to bring down an a/c. He was also flying solo even though the a/c was a DuaL seater & he may have had his hands full when the brown stuff hit the spinny thing.


But I guess we will never know & it really surprises me when I read Crash Reports just how many prangs remain unsolved/unexplained.

[4bee]

Yes, that's what I thought. Essentially, Col was using an aircraft without floats and trying a risky technique where the wheels skipped across the surface of the water (like a flat stone, see video) and the attached scoops would fill the tank/s. I think for someone as skilled as Col, it would have been a relatively easy task in benign conditions. However, the technique is very risky for the average pilot. Throw in a bit of chop and the risk far outweighs the benefit. It's so easy for a wheel to dig in (as what happened with Col) and it's game over.
I couldn't envisage pilots doing such demanding flying to refill after having been on duty for over 10 hours.

Kevin Quinn World Record Plane Water Ski - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OAEGPVcvhU)

The 747 could land at any airport with a suitable pavement (or a pavement concession). Bearing in mind it would normally not have a lot of fuel onboard for fire bombing, so the aircraft would be relatively light compared to if it were doing an international flight. That would reduce the length of runway needed to operate.

I remember PAXing from Avalon to Tulla in 1992 after the airshow. There were about 50 of us onboard. The captain (Ray Heiniger) made a PA saying he was doing a "max performance takeoff' for the crowd. That involved a higher than usual flap setting and a standing start. We were only on the ground foe a few seconds. I suspect well under 1000m. That was impressive.


Thanks John, it is always good to read your informed comments you being "in the trade" so to speak.I


I hope you are now getting more hours up of late.




Your "max performance takeoff" reminded me of our Cathay 747 flight out of Kai Tak to Aust. in about 1980.


Heavy storm brewing & the Capt wanted to get moving asap. We sat on the thresh-hold, brakes on, 4 engines screaming their nuts off when the brakes were released. Suddenly we found ourselves going into orbit & out over the Harbour & away. From memory I seem to recall the A/C being parked as far back as possible on the Landward end which would have given him maybe a 100' extra length.

He did have the courtesy to explain what he was going to do so that made it a bit easier & it certainly was exhilarating.

All in a Day's work for him I reckon.


Then they built the new airport & took all the fun out of it.[bigsad]