D4 Cooling system differences?

[gavinwibrow]

With the D4, are there any differences in the dimensions, capacity etc of the cooling equipment between 2.7L, 3.0L TD and 3.0L SD and if so what are they?

I'm thinking of coolant, engine oil, a/c, fuel, power steering, auto trans, and even thermostats and any unusual cooling that other models might not have?

[Tombie]

I think I know where your mind is at.

There’s no notable difference and no benefit to changing.
Your vehicle has more than adequate cooling capacity if the system is up to spec - even towing your block of flats. [emoji41]

Look at airflow restrictions like number plate, driving lights etc to improve efficiency.

[josh.huber]

Gav, throw your scan tools out the window. They seem to ruin your holidays

[gavinwibrow]

I think I know where your mind is at.

There’s no notable difference and no benefit to changing.
Your vehicle has more than adequate cooling capacity if the system is up to spec - even towing your block of flats. [emoji41]

Look at airflow restrictions like number plate, driving lights etc to improve efficiency.


Yep, you picked it.
"Spoilers" are an ARB bar, including under-protection and a Runva 11.5 Top mounted winch. No extra lights, but numberplate straddles the two lower horizontal openings.
I think I'll start with putting/dropping the numberplate down to cover the fairlead on a hinge as per my LSE TD5, and see if that improves the airflow, plus I'm still very interested in applying the recent post for an additional ATF? cooler that I saved the details of.

[DiscoDB]

Gavin - having seen the temps you have posted before, you obviously do need to keep an eye on this. I do think you are running too close to the edge and you are yet to hit real hot conditions but at least it is manageable at present.

Sounds like Tombie could be onto what your issue is if you have lots of air flow restrictions at the front.

Can you post a picture to show how much you do have mounted on the front? I recall Tombie also warning people before about being careful with what is mounted in front of the air grille with the D3/D4.

Could be a combination of restrictions at the front and too much under body protection preventing the hot air from escaping the engine bay that is the issue.

[libertyts]

If the relatively standard setup of ARB bull bar, winch and underbody protection is seen as a common problem for cooling systems on the D4, surely we'd see more overheating issues relating to it?

I'm certainly not saying it isn't true, but I personally haven't seen that many complaints about it, maybe I'm missing them.

I know on other vehicles that haven't got great cooling systems or the run of the mill ARB setup (especially underbody) has been a problem, there have been better aftermarket solutions. Specifically relating to the underbody, I have seen some setups that still offered great protection (arguably much better than the thin ARB pieces...) while incorporating into the design elements for airflow. Channels, grooves, grills, fins and shapes to encourage flow through the radiators rather than around. In my little bit of searching since we bought the D4 at the start of the year, I haven't seen any options for it that took airflow into serious consideration...

Is this a more common problem than I'm seeing? Are there better protection options out there?

[josh.huber]

Hey Gav,

When was the last time you cleaned out the cooler pack. They do collect crap between the coolers which affects them allot. Grass, seed etc.

[dirvine]

Mine has never overheated but got close a few years ago going up Adelaide Hills towing Van and 45C.temp. Car went into a sort of limp model and dropped the gears to keep revs up and the car cooled down. Also I put some flywire mesh in front of radiators. I change it every year. Simple to do when front grill is removed. Its amazing the number of flies, bugs and mud collects there, but it tends to keep the core clear and clean.

[gavinwibrow]

Gavin - having seen the temps you have posted before, you obviously do need to keep an eye on this. I do think you are running too close to the edge and you are yet to hit real hot conditions but at least it is manageable at present.

Sounds like Tombie could be onto what your issue is if you have lots of air flow restrictions at the front.

Can you post a picture to show how much you do have mounted on the front? I recall Tombie also warning people before about being careful with what is mounted in front of the air grille with the D3/D4.

Could be a combination of restrictions at the front and too much under body protection preventing the hot air from escaping the engine bay that is the issue.



Will post pics of the front icluding down under after I get home next week - and after dropping the numberplate.

I'm satisfied that this is not a generic D3/4 problem for cars fitted with fullish front protection, and that yes I'm getting close to the edge of vehicle capacity with my towing, hence my desire to implement some mitigating strategies/equipment as I want to keep the beast for some time yet.

[DiscoJeffster]

Mine has never overheated but got close a few years ago going up Adelaide Hills towing Van and 45C.temp. Car went into a sort of limp model and dropped the gears to keep revs up and the car cooled down. Also I put some flywire mesh in front of radiators. I change it every year. Simple to do when front grill is removed. Its amazing the number of flies, bugs and mud collects there, but it tends to keep the core clear and clean.

Mesh in front of the rad blocks flow hugely. Worst thing you can do. You can look up online the difference in flow between mesh and no mesh of various grades. It acts as a blind to flow and most air builds up and flows around it. I’m not surprised it nearly overheated.

[INter674]

We've run brass fly screen mesh in front of rads in several cars for years inc Patrols..D1. D2s and not suffered overheating in fact we've avoided it compared to others on same trips...eg 1000 dollar track last year we were the only car not to have to pull/hose/blow out the rad to clean it due to overheating. We simply pulled the mesh and shook off the crap. Patrols are also known as kettles and whilst it was not a 40 deg day we have done the same on trips on hot days with no overheating probs.

Would be interested in the studies that show issues with this approach.

[dirvine]

Mesh in front of the rad blocks flow hugely. Worst thing you can do. You can look up online the difference in flow between mesh and no mesh of various grades. It acts as a blind to flow and most air builds up and flows around it. I’m not surprised it nearly overheated.

That has been the only time, and believe me there were heaps of other cars on the side of the road with bonnets up. I even have a discrete winch which required taking away an air scoup to fit, and other than that one time never anything remotely close to overheat. The mesh has saved me I believe a blocked radiator as I have driven through a number of locust swarms and its easier to clean flywire than a clogged radiator.

[Tombie]

Mine has never overheated but got close a few years ago going up Adelaide Hills towing Van and 45C.temp. Car went into a sort of limp model and dropped the gears to keep revs up and the car cooled down. Also I put some flywire mesh in front of radiators. I change it every year. Simple to do when front grill is removed. Its amazing the number of flies, bugs and mud collects there, but it tends to keep the core clear and clean.

Fly mesh is half the problem - it’s extremely good at restricting airflow and making things worse.

(I see this has been a discussion) [emoji12]

If you need mesh to deal with swarms - way out front only - and larger aperture.

[rick130]

Fly mesh is half the problem - it’s extremely good at restricting airflow and making things worse.

(I see this has been a discussion) [emoji12]

If you need mesh to deal with swarms - way out front only - and larger aperture.100% re mesh of any description.
Always check open vs total area, you will be surprised.

I used to use 15/350 or coarser air conditioning filter media for paddock use or bug plagues, less restrictive and more protection than most any mesh or any sarlon cloth

[gavinwibrow]

Mesh in front of the rad blocks flow hugely. Worst thing you can do. You can look up online the difference in flow between mesh and no mesh of various grades. It acts as a blind to flow and most air builds up and flows around it. I’m not surprised it nearly overheated.


One old mate concurred with this and did a partial fix by putting the mesh on front of the bull bar. This stopped most of the bugs etc, but still allowed airflow around and over the bar.

[josh.huber]

Back to the washing idea. Alloy corrodes external and internal. The external corrosion builds up and stops the alloy being able to dissipate heat as well as clean new alloy.

I did a valve cover gasket on dad's car last night, and washed it at the car wash today. I used the wheel and engine cleaner setting. I sprayed his condenser, radiator and top mount intercooler first then did the engine bay. They were the last things I washed off. All three look great now. The alcali compound for cleaning works great. Previously I have used Cummins restore plus in a spray bottle and applied it externally and been very happy.

The car wash solution is easy when you are on the road. Maybe take out the grille when you get there. Hopefully it's a $7 fix

[Discodicky]

We've run brass fly screen mesh in front of rads in several cars for years inc Patrols..D1. D2s and not suffered overheating in fact we've avoided it compared to others on same trips...eg 1000 dollar track last year we were the only car not to have to pull/hose/blow out the rad to clean it due to overheating. We simply pulled the mesh and shook off the crap. Patrols are also known as kettles and whilst it was not a 40 deg day we have done the same on trips on hot days with no overheating probs.

Would be interested in the studies that show issues with this approach.

You did the $1000 dollar track in a 4WD???!!!
I did it about 3 yrs ago on a quad bike and said "never again".!
Must introduce you to Cumberland Lake track above Trial Harbour.............is quite possibly worse than $1000 dollar but shorter.
Oh yes, and Dunkleys Railway line outside Zeehan, another one about as difficult.
My friend took his highly modified D3 with Llams etc up Cumberland and outperformed all others incl Toyos with 35's etc

NB: for those that want to know..... $1000 Track means you'll do $1000 damage on it every time..........

[INter674]

Yep...been doing all those tracks for over 30 years.. first in a zook..last year in son's swb tb gq with 37s.. which shows you how they've deteriorated due to demand. Lots of other brilliant west coast tracks are unfortunately closed due to green pressure and indigenous sensitivities. Did Cumberland in a D1 with 37s some years ago...but had to bail out cause a Toyota broke his steering at the switchback😆

Cumberland I suspect will be closed too due to idiots carving up the top section. And yes we did about 1k panel damage last year..but others had worse eg. 80s auto gearbox fail. Hilux tray fell off and engine overheated..another 80s front hub sheared off...gu with v8. ..overheating (no surprise)..lots of panel damage too...rear lights fell out etc.

I would not recommend anyone do it in a good 4wd. Vic 4wders lost 2 thirds of their holiday here last year due to that one track...girls were naturally unimpressed...we had to provide some spare parts🙄

[Piddler]

You did the $1000 dollar track in a 4WD???!!!
I did it about 3 yrs ago on a quad bike and said "never again".!
Must introduce you to Cumberland Lake track above Trial Harbour.............is quite possibly worse than $1000 dollar but shorter.
Oh yes, and Dunkleys Railway line outside Zeehan, another one about as difficult.
My friend took his highly modified D3 with Llams etc up Cumberland and outperformed all others incl Toyos with 35's etc

NB: for those that want to know..... $1000 Track means you'll do $1000 damage on it every time..........

Actually we have renamed it the 5000 dollar track :)
did it it 3 times in the last 12 months in 4wd. Live pretty close.[bigsmile]

[Piddler]

Yep...been doing all those tracks for over 30 years.. first in a zook..last year in son's swb tb gq with 37s.. which shows you how they've deteriorated due to demand. Lots of other brilliant west coast tracks are unfortunately closed due to green pressure and indigenous sensitivities. Did Cumberland in a D1 with 37s some years ago...but had to bail out cause a Toyota broke his steering at the switchback😆

Cumberland I suspect will be closed too due to idiots carving up the top section. And yes we did about 1k panel damage last year..but others had worse eg. 80s auto gearbox fail. Hilux tray fell off and engine overheated..another 80s front hub sheared off...gu with v8. ..overheating (no surprise)..lots of panel damage too...rear lights fell out etc.

I would not recommend anyone do it in a good 4wd. Vic 4wders lost 2 thirds of their holiday here last year due to that one track...girls were naturally unimpressed...we had to provide some spare parts🙄

Totally agree with all above

[PerthDisco]

In recent 4wd beach trips I’ve seen my temp gauge rise to the high mark.

I’ve got no bull bar or spot lights and even had the lower panel removed to allow access to the tow point. I keep the radiator clean as possible. Air flow is not an issue.

Both times it was in low range driving on soft flat beach sand so the engine revs are higher than normal for an extended period (on the suspension lowering bong bong limit). Most recently I noticed it happed with a very very strong wind behind me so the effective wind through the radiator would be nil. As I noticed it rise and rise towards the red I backed off the power and the big fan noise started which brought it down also. Turning to head back into the strong wind no such problems.

The other time was a very steep and very long soft sand hill climb at close to full power. I don’t blame it and let it idle after for a while. Fortunately it made it first time.

I’ve never noticed this ever happening previously in younger years so have to assume that with whatever other ageing issues to EGR and oil Coolers the effectiveness of the radiator is also diminishing.

(Or am I mistaken that the gauge should never move off the middle?)

[josh.huber]

Might be worth taking a look at your thermostat. These cars are getting on in age now. Radiators tend not to have to many internal blockages these days due to excellent coolants. Thermostat couldn't be to expensive.

[PerthDisco]

Is there an actual way of testing the thermo fan operation or only listening after cold start up for the roar?

Looking at previous posts other older D3s have seen the gauge rise in heavy driving and on soft sand.

I suspect between full electronic lock of the fan (the roar) and part way viscous engagement some of the fan effectiveness may get lost on older cars as engine temp rises.

[scarry]

Is there an actual way of testing the thermo fan operation or only listening after cold start up for the roar?

Looking at previous posts other older D3s have seen the gauge rise in heavy driving and on soft sand.

I suspect between full electronic lock of the fan (the roar) and part way viscous engagement some of the fan effectiveness may get lost on older cars as engine temp rises.

The vehicle does a self test of the fan,but not at every start,which is the roar.

With the Gap tool,you are able to keep an eye on both coolant temperatures,and fan speed,and of course many other parameters,which will help diagnosing an issue.

I BT mine to the iPad,so its on a large screen and easy to see,particularly with someone else at the wheel.
You are able to see many parameters on the one screen,in different formats.

If the engine is very hot,i would presume the fan would be roaring,as it would be electrically locked up.

[PerthDisco]

The vehicle does a self test of the fan,but not at every start,which is the roar.

With the Gap tool,you are able to keep an eye on both coolant temperatures,and fan speed,and of course many other parameters,which will help diagnosing an issue.

I BT mine to the iPad,so its on a large screen and easy to see,particularly with someone else at the wheel.
You are able to see many parameters on the one screen,in different formats.

If the engine is very hot,i would presume the fan would be roaring,as it would be electrically locked up.

Yes I heard it roar but I wonder if the viscous operation deteriorates or fails over time?

[scarry]

Yes I heard it roar but I wonder if the viscous operation deteriorates or fails over time?

Yes,the fluid weeps out,which is an issue with them over time,but i haven't heard of it happening in D4's.I have heard of the electric locking failing.

If the viscous is deteriorating,the electric should lock up once the engine gets to a certain temperature,i presume?

Gap tool is what you need,it will reveal all.

Without it you are guessing.

[PerthDisco]

Yes,the fluid weeps out,which is an issue with them over time,but i haven't heard of it happening in D4's.I have heard of the electric locking failing.

If the viscous is deteriorating,the electric should lock up once the engine gets to a certain temperature,i presume?

Gap tool is what you need,it will reveal all.

Without it you are guessing.

Yes it’s a suspicion because when the needle went up to the high mark the roar started and the temp came down again promptly. (As it should)

If the viscous part is old school in that the oil gets thicker with heat causing more lock up then how does the ‘lectronics see and record that function?

[scarry]

Yes it’s a suspicion because when the needle went up to the high mark the roar started and the temp came down again promptly. (As it should)

If the viscous part is old school in that the oil gets thicker with heat causing more lock up then how does the ‘lectronics see and record that function?

Probably doesn't,it just sees the temp rising,above a certain limit,and demands the fan on,electronically.

As i said,with the GAP tool,you can see fan revs,so if they are not going up as the actual coolant temp on the Gap tool rises,there is an issue.It can be seen on the same screen,at the same time,great bit of kit.

I was watching it on the last trip back from the property,relatively cool weather,but i could see the fan revs going up and down,coolant was relatively steady.We were travelling on the speed limit,100Km.

You are only guessing without the tool.In my opinion,it essential to have one if keeping the vehicle for a while.

On older vehicles,some used to use the newspaper trick,heat the engine,if the fan can be stopped with a piece of newspaper,it is shagged.But thats a bit dangerous,particularly if the electronic part cut in while holding the newspaper against the fan.

[Piddler]

Easy to check viscous fan, would be number 1 check.
I have replaced a couple on different vehicles.
Cheers

[Tombie]

Sticking temp increase followed by rapid cooling is a circulatory problem. Not a viscous issue.

[INter674]

Sounds like a thermosyphon effect..as if there's no themostat..ie sudden rush of water displacement as the hot water is displaced by cold. Monkeys whobtemive thermostats cause this to occur thinking it improves cooling. It does not.

[PerthDisco]

Sounds like a thermosyphon effect..as if there's no themostat..ie sudden rush of water displacement as the hot water is displaced by cold. Monkeys whobtemive thermostats cause this to occur thinking it improves cooling. It does not.

I flushed and replaced the coolant some months ago so I live in fear there’s some internal air lock even though the bleeders are flowing and I’ve done 20,000km since.

I’m keen to replace the thermostat due to age.

Both times it happened I was in low range and revving hard 3,500rpm on soft beach sand in sand mode driving with a strong wind. When you turn into the wind the problem does not reoccur.

My radiator and condenser fins are very clean.

Im tempted to up shift to keep the revs under 3,000 in the future or stay in high range. There’s a seperate argument on what’s better for the car screaming in lr or lugging in hr.

Lr is perfect for 0-20kmh but I’m not so sure when you are hitting the 40kmh suspension lowering limit.

[Piddler]

I flushed and replaced the coolant some months ago so I live in fear there’s some internal air lock even though the bleeders are flowing and I’ve done 20,000km since.

I’m keen to replace the thermostat due to age.

Both times it happened I was in low range and revving hard 3,500rpm on soft beach sand in sand mode driving with a strong wind. When you turn into the wind the problem does not reoccur.

My radiator and condenser fins are very clean.

Im tempted to up shift to keep the revs under 3,000 in the future or stay in high range. There’s a seperate argument on what’s better for the car screaming in lr or lugging in hr.

Lr is perfect for 0-20kmh but I’m not so sure when you are hitting the 40kmh suspension lowering limit.

I think I would replace the thermostat and have the radiator tanks taken off and the tubes prodded out.
Cheers

[gavinwibrow]

Yep, you picked it.
"Spoilers" are an ARB bar, including under-protection and a Runva 11.5 Top mounted winch. No extra lights, but numberplate straddles the two lower horizontal openings.
I think I'll start with putting/dropping the numberplate down to cover the fairlead on a hinge as per my LSE TD5, and see if that improves the airflow, plus I'm still very interested in applying the recent post for an additional ATF? cooler that I saved the details of.


Well, I've dropped and hinged the numberplate, and will check out the towing for any improved cooling when we go to the Manjimup Cherry Festival in a couple of months.

Should expect some improvement with the plate removed from the grill area.
You can see where the top of the plate used to be by the two screws just below the winch box. The original position was almost as high as in the upturned pic - to access the winch cable.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Gav, my setup is the same w/o the flip up plate, no cooling issues at all towing, car full of kids etc.

I think you may have a dodgy thermostat.

Did you 'burp' the system after your flush? There's a little rubber hose piece sealed with a plastic screw cap just next to the coolant outlet, run the engine to temperature and slowly unscrew the plug, this let's out any air in the system. There's another plug at the rear of the engine on top of the dross over pipe, bleed that one too, but I'd also suggest to replace that plastic cap with a brass one, about 10bucks from supercheap (btw thanks Dazza td5 for that gem).

Anyway, I'd be checking thermostat first.

[PerthDisco]

Did you 'burp' the system after your flush? There's a little rubber hose piece sealed with a plastic screw cap just next to the coolant outlet, run the engine to temperature and slowly unscrew the plug, this let's out any air in the system. There's another plug at the rear of the engine on top of the dross over pipe, bleed that one too, but I'd also suggest to replace that plastic cap with a brass one, about 10bucks from supercheap (btw thanks Dazza td5 for that gem).

Anyway, I'd be checking thermostat first.

I definitely did these two points using the pressure of a warm system as a final purge.

To note the brass plug definitely needs some thread sealant as try as I might to get the taper to bite I had a tiny leak until thread sealant was used.

[Tombie]

I definitely did these two points using the pressure of a warm system as a final purge.

To note the brass plug definitely needs some thread sealant as try as I might to get the taper to bite I had a tiny leak until thread sealant was used.

Fit an oring to the brass plug if it didn’t come with one.
The hose has a small rebate for it to seat to.

[PerthDisco]

Fit an oring to the brass plug if it didn’t come with one.
The hose has a small rebate for it to seat to.

But given the taper it doesn’t bottom out like the plastic LR ones do. They have a slot in the plastic thread to allow bleeding escape once backed off the o-ring.

[gavinwibrow]

Gav, my setup is the same w/o the flip up plate, no cooling issues at all towing, car full of kids etc.

I think you may have a dodgy thermostat.

Did you 'burp' the system after your flush? There's a little rubber hose piece sealed with a plastic screw cap just next to the coolant outlet, run the engine to temperature and slowly unscrew the plug, this let's out any air in the system. There's another plug at the rear of the engine on top of the dross over pipe, bleed that one too, but I'd also suggest to replace that plastic cap with a brass one, about 10bucks from supercheap (btw thanks Dazza td5 for that gem).

Anyway, I'd be checking thermostat first.

G'day Eric. Will ask DazzaTD5 to check the thermostat in her week after next service, but suspect its just that I'm asking so much pulling 3.5T of high wind resistant block of flats/brick that the old girl is on the limits.

Dazza does all my work and he would have ensured full bleeding after replacing the plastic overflow tank and again after the engine oil filter block leaked and impregnated the coolant. I'm pretty sure I was not booked for the full hours he then spent flushing the various bits.

Also, in non tow running she is pretty cool and certainly within normal temp parameters. Going to Margs next week with no tow and only 2 passengers/luggage, so will get some normal running stats then.

[Tombie]

But given the taper it doesn’t bottom out like the plastic LR ones do. They have a slot in the plastic thread to allow bleeding escape once backed off the o-ring.

Ahh see I run the plugs off of BMWs and they fit perfectly.

[PerthDisco]

Anyone know if the viscous fan unit is common between the Territory and Discovery 2.7 engine? (Can you buy it from Ford?)

[DazzaTD5]

Anyone know if the viscous fan unit is common between the Territory and Discovery 2.7 engine? (Can you buy it from Ford?)

No it's not, the Territory doesn't have a viscous fan it uses an electric.