P400 and towing

[PeterJ]

I know that it's very early days but no harm in asking. Anyone out there with a P400 done any towing yet?
What were you towing, (size and mass) how did it cope and did you measure fuel consumption.
Thanks

[Milton477]

Mmmm, D5 V6 or P400 to replace D4?
I'm interested in any experiences too.

[INter674]

https://www.google.com/url'sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.motor1.com/news/439203/land-rover-defender-towing-test/&ved=2ahUKEwimjubcop7sAhXnyzgGHdv3ATgQo7QBMAR6BAgDE AE&usg=AOvVaw3kzqWQ6r5n8Vi95e_RwSdm

[zilch]

a few on the FB All new defender owners group in the US using them for towing, some horrendous figures being quoted
in terms of fuel return .. to late for me however as i now have my P400, but if you are ordering now i would place my
money on the D300 MHEV with the straight six as most probably the right tool with at least some reasonable fuel economy

[INter674]

Yanks worrying about fuel use🤣

..what sort of figures are they quoting??...

I don't do farcebook...

[INter674]

..ok I did a search and yes some high figures are being cited for heavy towing..up to 3.7t.

Seems a bit odd as our 250kw D4 has never exeeded 16l/100klms when towing up to 3.5t....and on hilly terrain too. Mind you the 290kw Defender has 3l/100klms better lowest fuel consumption so I guess in the end it averages out cause you don't tow all the time.

[PeterJ]

Yeah that's part of the dilemma though I think I have ruled out the D5. Then there's the P400 or P300, with DPF and AdBlue.
[emoji848]
Mmmm, D5 V6 or P400 to replace D4?
I'm interested in any experiences too.

I will have a look at the video later and do some conversion on the values quoted. I never doubted that the P400 has the power and torque, it's just a case of eyes [emoji102] open as far as the fuel burn is concerned.

[scarry]

My D4 does 18 to 20l/100 towing just over 3T,pretty windy that day,but it did similar on the return trip,over 700K.

I would expect P400 to use more.

I did see a tow test using the D240 in the lighter D5,and it wasn't impressive at all,but i believe that engine has gone.

The real issue for the petrol is the small fuel tank,a real nuisance when towing.
As the spare tyre is on the rear,hopefully the aftermarket guys will sort out a larger tank.
Carrying petrol in jerry cans and decanting is not the safest thing to do.

The 6cyl diesel would be the best towing option,no doubt,by far.

Some may say the Diesel is complicated,but so is the petrol,it isn't something like the Y62 engine,as an example.

[INter674]

Y62 is a pretty sophisticated engine:

The*VK56VD*is a 5,552*cc (5.6*L; 338.8*cu*in) 32-valve, DOHC, Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG) aluminum-alloy V8 and features*Nissan's advanced*VVEL*(Variable Valve Event & Lift System). The direct injection system provides better wide-open throttle performance and improved fuel economy and emissions performance by reducing engine knock, improving combustion stability and controlling injection more precisely.

Block..piston and bores also have special chemical treatments etc.

One good aspect is that like the 200s V8 it is vastly understressed aka American style no 'subs for cubs' so there's huge capacity for more power.

Wikipedia

[zilch]

Yanks worrying about fuel use🤣

..what sort of figures are they quoting??...

I don't do farcebook...

some quoted 9-11 mpg (US gallons)

[zilch]

Yanks worrying about fuel use🤣

..what sort of figures are they quoting??...

I don't do farcebook... he is a fellow pom and sounds like he is from Yorkshire, who are known to keep hold of their brass :) and lives in Canada


this is his response to that same enquiry on the book of faces

’ve towed a lot with mine so far. Here’s my data. The average of towing and not towing over 4200 miles is 16.9mpg (British gallons). I have towed probably 1000 miles of that.

When towing a 3500lb caravan in southern Alberta in unusually still conditions, I managed 11.1 mpg; towing an 8000lb utility trailer, I got 16mpg (though some of that was downhill work).


On the Highway with nothing in the roof, I’ve managed between 19 and 24mpg — but on a 2200mile trip with two kayaks on the roof in the mountains I managed 21.6 mpg.


I’m my opinion, if you’re towing a low-profile 4000lb boat and trailer (assuming the combined weight is 4000lbs), I’d expect 14-16mpg in favourable conditions.

[INter674]

So up to 26l/100klms..same as my mates LC200 when towing his brick at 90kph max (too scary over that speed he says).

Sounds about right if they tow 3.7t as allowed over there..and we know they tend to go over the top with weight and speed eg. F250 towing a D47U dozer/trailer.🤤

Still..that gonna crimp range badly with a std tank.

I wonder if the tuning is fat to provide for crap fuel/engine protection..similar to the Y62 which goes super rich on load/high revs. Tuners lean this out to gain extra power eg 50kw/Y62..but it must be run on ultra to be safe.

[zilch]

So up to 26l/100klms..same as my mates LC200 when towing his brick at 90kph max
Still..that gonna crimp range badly with a std tank..

I am looking to hook up a Camper trailer for our lap of Oz next year, so lets say around 2 ton, i will be carrying at least 3 extra Jerry cans to give me at least
some modicum of range when we get off the black top .. just miffed the D300 was not available initially and also for being to impatient to wait.

Steve who posted on FB does do both tarmac, gravel, national parks and back wood trails, so assume it will be a reasonable comparison to touring in OZ

[donh54]

Keep in mind that a lot of towing in the USA is done on freeways at around 70 miles per hour!

[Discodicky]

Y62 is a pretty sophisticated engine:

The*VK56VD*is a 5,552*cc (5.6*L; 338.8*cu*in) 32-valve, DOHC, Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG) aluminum-alloy V8 and features*Nissan's advanced*VVEL*(Variable Valve Event & Lift System). The direct injection system provides better wide-open throttle performance and improved fuel economy and emissions performance by reducing engine knock, improving combustion stability and controlling injection more precisely.

Block..piston and bores also have special chemical treatments etc.

One good aspect is that like the 200s V8 it is vastly understressed aka American style no 'subs for cubs' so there's huge capacity for more power.

Wikipedia

Last week had lunch with a close friend who is well known in Hobart as a former Nissan Service Mngr and for past 15 odd yrs had a w/shop specialising in Nissan with his business partner, also ex Nissan Dealership. Ol mate bought a new Y62 a few months ago. He laughed when I asked fuel economy. Answer was 15-17 lphk NOT towing and basically doesn't matter how you drive it, lightly or hard, the consumption is still pretty much the same. But he still wears the permagrin constantly!

[scarry]

Y62 is a pretty sophisticated engine:

The*VK56VD*is a 5,552*cc (5.6*L; 338.8*cu*in) 32-valve, DOHC, Direct Injection Gasoline (DIG) aluminum-alloy V8 and features*Nissan's advanced*VVEL*(Variable Valve Event & Lift System). The direct injection system provides better wide-open throttle performance and improved fuel economy and emissions performance by reducing engine knock, improving combustion stability and controlling injection more precisely.

Block..piston and bores also have special chemical treatments etc.
Wikipedia

A lot of that has been around for yonks,direct injection,variable valve timing,DOHC,alloy block,adjusting tuning for economy and minimise engine knock,etc,etc.But its probably way uprated than anything 10yrs old.Tuned to the max.

But the P400 is probably light years ahead,it will have all that plus,turbo,supercharged,and on it goes.

I am guessing the P400 will only run on premium fuel?

Sometimes i really wonder why people get so fixated on fuel economy.They pay upwards of well over $100K for a vehicle,then are worried about a liter or four of fuel here or there.At the going rates thats about $300 to $400 over 10 000K's.Just a drop in the ocean,compared with maintenance,repairs,and the huge amount of depreciation on these vehicles.
Sure everything adds up,but there are definitely more things to worry about.

Maybe i am missing something[bighmmm][biggrin]

Just get in the thing and enjoy it.[biggrin]
Drive it like you stole it if you want.[thumbsupbig]

[zilch]

Keep in mind that a lot of towing in the USA is done on freeways at around 70 miles per hour!

the guy lives in lethbridge, Alberta in Canada, he does a reasonable amount of off road

[INter674]

The old saying that you don't get something for nothing comes to mind and the differences between brands are marginal eg Audi does better on some performance/fuel metrics but that comes at a premium price and prob won't apply in Aus anyway.

I agree that worrying about fuel use/economy can be a waste of time...there just too many variables to consider.

At least we are spoilt for choice atm....pretty soon it may not be the case with the unstoppable march to simpler more profitable electric cars.

Give me the kw and I'll decide how to use them😎

[PeterJ]

Yeah, could not agree more about the comments as far as fuel economy is concerned, hence very nearly purchased a Y62 earlier this year, it has a very big tank and even at 25 l/100 (towing) you get a reasonable range. Coupled with the fact that they will cope with standard ULP if that's all that is available, then petrol is a proposition.
The P400 might consume a bit less, it has a much smaller tank and no clue about if it will stomach ULP. So the equation for towing range and fuel management is for me at least an important consideration. An auxiliary fuel tank for the P400 would sell me on it I think.
The 2021 diesel, (225kw & 650 N.m if I remember correctly) will certainly have the numbers to tow and uses less fuel than the P400 but also a smaller fuel tank to accommodate the AdBlue.
So, getting real world numbers helps with the decision.
Pros and cons abound.

[scarry]

Yeah, could not agree more about the comments as far as fuel economy is concerned, hence very nearly purchased a Y62 earlier this year, it has a very big tank and even at 25 l/100 (towing) you get a reasonable range. Coupled with the fact that they will cope with standard ULP if that's all that is available, then petrol is a proposition.
The P400 might consume a bit less, it has a much smaller tank and no clue about if it will stomach ULP. So the equation for towing range and fuel management is for me at least an important consideration. An auxiliary fuel tank for the P400 would sell me on it I think.
The 2021 diesel, (225kw & 650 N.m if I remember correctly) will certainly have the numbers to tow and uses less fuel than the P400 but also a smaller fuel tank to accommodate the AdBlue.
So, getting real world numbers helps with the decision.
Pros and cons abound.

You could always give ARB a call and see if they have decided to do any accessories for them.Or some of the other aftermarket companies.Just thinking of a larger tank,it could sway your decision.

[W&KO]

A?

Sometimes i really wonder why people get so fixated on fuel economy.They pay upwards of well over $100K for a vehicle,then are worried about a liter or four of fuel here or there.At the going rates thats about $300 to $400 over 10 000K's.Just a drop in the ocean,compared with maintenance,repairs,and the huge amount of depreciation on these vehicles.
Sure everything adds up,but there are definitely more things to worry about.

.[thumbsupbig]

Yep same here....never really bothered about fuel economy these days. I’ve never chosen a car based on fuel economy.

When people ask these day what my fuel economy is I reply with don’t really know, roughly 12’s, around 500k’s I need to have a plan to top up.

And I cannot remember the last time I took notice of the price of diesel. I would have no idea what prices are in brisbane today.

I’ll download fuel map for our trip but primarily to know where diesel is not for the cheapest diesel. Our last trip the was a big line up for diesel at one servo which 4 cents cheaper than the across the road. I couldn’t be bothered lined up behind 3 or 4 other travellers.

[Milton477]

Fuel consumption aside, I am interested in draw bar stretching power but I am not to prepared to go to a yank tank.

So which one will stretch the draw bar further, accelerate better with the caravan while overtaking & maintain uphill speed?

D5 V6 with 225kw/700nm
Defender P400 with 294kw/550nm

[Bulletman]

Yeah, could not agree more about the comments as far as fuel economy is concerned, hence very nearly purchased a Y62 earlier this year, it has a very big tank and even at 25 l/100 (towing) you get a reasonable range. Coupled with the fact that they will cope with standard ULP if that's all that is available, then petrol is a proposition.
The P400 might consume a bit less, it has a much smaller tank and no clue about if it will stomach ULP. So the equation for towing range and fuel management is for me at least an important consideration. An auxiliary fuel tank for the P400 would sell me on it I think.
The 2021 diesel, (225kw & 650 N.m if I remember correctly) will certainly have the numbers to tow and uses less fuel than the P400 but also a smaller fuel tank to accommodate the AdBlue.
So, getting real world numbers helps with the decision.
Pros and cons abound.

L/R build some of the most capable 4x4 around , but still havent worked out that a good size or even 2 fuel tanks should be standard. Toyota learnt this a long time ago..

Bulletman

[Graeme]

Fuel consumption aside, I am interested in draw bar stretching power but I am not to prepared to go to a yank tank.

So which one will stretch the draw bar further, accelerate better with the caravan while overtaking & maintain uphill speed?

D5 V6 with 225kw/700nm
Defender P400 with 294kw/550nm


I often choose hills to overtake trucks in my 230kw/700nm 4.4 TDV8 L322 with my tall 2.5T van attached, with no difficulty getting to a 110 kph limit quite quickly. I suspect either of your listed engines would do the job well but I would expect the petrol to use considerably more fuel overall.

[101RRS]

L/R build some of the most capable 4x4 around , but still havent worked out that a good size or even 2 fuel tanks should be standard. Toyota learnt this a long time ago..



Only for some of their models but not the 200 series - it may have a larger tank than a D3/D4/RRS but in diesel form only has the same range due to their its guzzling engine and worse when towing something.

[Bulletman]

Only for some of their models but not the 200 series - it may have a larger tank than a D3/D4/RRS but in diesel form only has the same range due to their its guzzling engine and worse when towing something.

Not sure Garry , but the 200 series I drove at work would have had around 140ltrs and towing a trailer with about 2t from darwin to Karumba did 800ks easy, reckon would have done 1000 but never tested it. that was sitting on between 90-110 depending. I know it doesnt have a long range tank fitted.

My mates prado has 150ltr standard so i can only compare what i have personal experience with.

Bulletman

[scarry]

L/R build some of the most capable 4x4 around , but still havent worked out that a good size or even 2 fuel tanks should be standard. Toyota learnt this a long time ago..

Bulletman

What a great selling point it would be,we have listened to what people want,and fitted a large fuel tank.[thumbsupbig]


Sure they are highly capable,but for the buyers,i wonder how many put this at the top of the list for reasons to buy one.

[Bulletman]

What a great selling point it would be,we have listened to what people want,and fitted a large fuel tank.[thumbsupbig]


Sure they are highly capable,but for the buyers,i wonder how many put this at the top of the list for reasons to buy one.

I would say 90% of grey nomads look at some form of fuel range when looking at a tow tug. Read most threads in the D3/D4 sections on touring/towing and fuel range and tank size always comes up. Even in this thread , 1 of the main issues is fuel range, which is what i originally replied too.

I know many many toyota owners and they all comment on the benifit of not needing to buy long range tank when looking at towing. Yep , i know the standard L/R owner reply will be not having to buy after market suspension , etc etc etc.

For me it just shows L/R are still designing these vehicles to be able to do a couple of laps of Windsor castle and thats enough fuel range.

Bulletman

[scarry]

Not sure Garry , but the 200 series I drove at work would have had around 140ltrs and towing a trailer with about 2t from darwin to Karumba did 800ks easy, reckon would have done 1000 but never tested it. that was sitting on between 90-110 depending. I know it doesnt have a long range tank fitted.

My mates prado has 150ltr standard so i can only compare what i have personal experience with.

Bulletman

Exactly,been away with mates with them,they do 950 to 1200K to a tank easy,not towing.Can do more not loaded.Tank takes around 132L usable,D4 is around 76 usable.

That is a fact,not what a brother said his uncle said the daughter once did.

Many around are fully modded and weight upwards of 3.5T,empty,no doubt they would use more fuel,but relatively stock,are not that bad on fuel considering.
And once again,its only a few $ here or there in the whole scheme of things,particularly if you look at depreciation of a new vehicle,which is thousands of $ each year.

[scarry]

not having to buy after market suspension , etc etc etc.


Bulletman

There are some on here that sold their D3/4,because it was constantly overloaded,and a GVM upgrade was impossible.

So its sort of horses for courses.

Every vehicle is a compromise one way or the other,none are perfect.

[INter674]

On a trip thru the outback ..if there is such a thing anymore..we travelled coincidently with two retirees in a tiny Suzuki 4x4 with a fuel tank the size of a beer barrel...including crossing the Simmo with a couple jerry cans in the back.

They had no problem finding fuel and neither did we including for an LS powered 100 series that ate fuel at an alarming rate.

I think this fuel range thing is a bit of a beat up..oh and I asked my travelling mate Bruce today if all fellow travellers have 200s with huge heavy tanks ..he laughed and said no..matter if fact he said we've seen lot of cars like yours..ie D4s.

[scarry]

in fact what i have said previously is they are a fantastic tug.Probably one of the best around.

Having owned one for almost 10yrs,maybe i would have some sort of idea?

[101RRS]

Not sure Garry , but the 200 series I drove at work would have had around 140ltrs and towing a trailer with about 2t from darwin to Karumba did 800ks easy, reckon would have done 1000 but never tested it. that was sitting on between 90-110 depending. I know it doesnt have a long range tank fitted.

My mates prado has 150ltr standard so i can only compare what i have personal experience with.

Bulletman

Well my brother had a 2014 200 Series Sahara TDV8 and we often compared it with my RRS - not much in it as far as range goes in similar conditions. In fact the Cruiser was so bad that my brother sold it and bought a Chev Silverado HSV last year which he says is far superior with its 6.? litre TDV8 than the Cruiser.

He went away with his Cruiser towing his van with my other brother in his 2011 Hilux towing his van and the cruiser used almost twice the amount of fuel of the Hilux.

Those 4.5 Twin Turbo Toyota diesels have a real reputation of chewing through the juice - even when not towing.

[101RRS]

Tank takes around 132L usable,D4 is around 76 usable.



I asked the question earlier but no one responded - why is the usable fuel in the D4 far worse than a D3/RRS. My RRS has a 84 litre tank and I have put in more than 80 litres on a few occasions with a max fill of 82 litres and distance of just over 1100km.

[scarry]

I asked the question earlier but no one responded - why is the usable fuel in the D4 far worse than a D3/RRS. My RRS has a 84 litre tank and I have put in more than 80 litres on a few occasions with a max fill of 82 litres and distance of just over 1100km.

That’s excellent mileage

Dunno,they are just like that,there are other threads on this subject.(D4fuel tank size)

The D2 also had a good sized tank.

Some of the LC200 models also had different sized tanks,around the 95 litre mark from memory,which can confuse the ‘how far I went on a tank ‘ comments.
Generally,after the facelift,they had the larger tanks and were better on fuel than the earlier model runs,different injectors,etc,etc.

[Bulletman]

I asked the question earlier but no one responded - why is the usable fuel in the D4 far worse than a D3/RRS. My RRS has a 84 litre tank and I have put in more than 80 litres on a few occasions with a max fill of 82 litres and distance of just over 1100km.

I better buy a RRS as there is no way my 08 D3 can go 1100km on a tank. I have never seen the computer tell me a number less than 10l/100 and the bowser certainly tells me it can not do single figure numbers/100ks no matter how i drive it. I have travelled with other D3's and they dont get that range either from the standard 84 ltr tank

Bulletman

[zilch]

I asked the question earlier but no one responded - why is the usable fuel in the D4 far worse than a D3/RRS. My RRS has a 84 litre tank and I have put in more than 80 litres on a few occasions with a max fill of 82 litres and distance of just over 1100km.

my 07 RRS could easily return approx 1000 K's on one tank, but it was based on the 2.7 V6, my 10.5 RRS is lucky to give anything
beyond 650-700K's on a run between Sydney and North Queensland, the 3.0 twin turbo is a tad thirstier than the 2.7.

[Loubrey]

Reading this thread, it seems people are randomly comparing diesel and petrol consumption, for both normal driving and towing which doesn't really make much sense...

The P400 engine is just about 100PS (pferdestarke or German metric horsepower) more powerful than any petrol V8 fitted to any Discovery and has about 150Nm more torque, so a pretty impressive engine for a straight 6. However, as everyone knows, fuel consumption on a petrol is directly related to your right foot, so guys have been posting up some very widely spaced consumption rates. THese are however directly related to their driving style rather than an attribute of the engine's performance.

Anything between 12l/100km to 19l/100km have been quoted and the guy who did the 19l/100km was towing a 3 ton trailer with timber over the Rocky Mountains near Banff. The P400 is an awesome engine, but like the joys of driving a V8, it comes at a price.

I'm waiting to order a 90 and I'll be looking a the diesel i6 D250 for various reasons, but we know absolutely nothing about those engines and their fuel consumption as they are brand new for 2021. I suppose we will just have to see how the insane torque figures of 570Nm for the D250 with combined consumption figures lower than 9l/100km (quoted) goes as a tow vehicle.


Cheers,

Lou

[101RRS]

I better buy a RRS as there is no way my 08 D3 can go 1100km on a tank. I have never seen the computer tell me a number less than 10l/100 and the bowser certainly tells me it can not do single figure numbers/100ks no matter how i drive it. I have travelled with other D3's and they dont get that range either from the standard 84 ltr tank

Bulletman

Well you have an issue either with your driving style or your vehicle.

My display regularly shows 6.6l/100km (which is a real 7.4l/100km) cruising on the freeway at 110kph - but then I have a aerodynamic Sport and not a brick fridge D3 [thumbsupbig]

[scarry]

The best my D4 2.7L has ever done is 9.2l/100,calculated,that was on a 600KM run,empty apart from myself and the dog.
And on the speed limit all the way,some sections at 110km/hr.
Cooler weather as well,which always helps diesels.

But generally,loaded,nothing on the roof,it will do 10 to 11l/100,on a run,at the speed limit.

I have given up with the dash readout,always calculate fuel usage.

The D3/4 is larger and probably heavier than a Sport,which won't do it any favours fuel consumption wise.

But its still not bad for a heavy brick shaped vehicle.

[Vern]

I would have thought you would get better than 9.2 on the hwy. 10.2 is our best, 4 in the car, 3t or thereabouts, 5.6L of petrol v8[emoji6]. Worst, well i'll let you know after the weekend, towing the camper around in the bush[emoji4]

[zilch]

Anything between 12l/100km to 19l/100km have been quoted and the guy who did the 19l/100km was towing a 3 ton trailer with timber over the Rocky Mountains near Banff. The P400 is an awesome engine, but like the joys of driving a V8, it comes at a price.



Lourens good to see you over here.. without towing, in the very short time i have had my P400 (so no real data), best is 9.7L/100 and worse 19.2,
average has been 13.4L/100 KM's. the average is not a bad return seeing it has mostly been around Sydney northern beaches.. so hardly highway
long distance runs.. more stop /start (without the Auto stop/start on :) ) If you purchase a P400 i think you need to have more consideration in regard to
range if you are going well off the beaten track for a period, it's not that difficult to carry some Jerry cans, i did exactly that with my 3.0 TDv6
on the longer trips (such as Cape York) even where fuel supplies are available (but albeit a bit more limited and sometimes not optimally stored)

Cheers

Jim R

[Tombie]

Those quoting fuel burn figures towing - you NEED to give speeds!

[Loubrey]

Lourens good to see you over here..

Hi Jim,

Its been so long I had to renew my subscription! Unfortunately the AULRO FB page is no good for most new Defender posts, so thought I'll have a look in the Pinnacles.

Cheers,

Lou