An interesting read on electric vehicles and the experience in regional areas [Archive]

PhilipA

7th October 2020, 07:56 AM

My reaction to the article was that it was more even handed than most such paens of praise.
However My first thoughts were.
What happens when EVs get more popular and there may be 1-2 or 3 cars waiting to be charged? Arm wrestle? guns at 10 paces?
This has already happened on along weekend at a Tesla supercharge station half way between LA and SF with some cars waiting as reported up to 16 hours. And there were numerous chargers there.

What also happens when lots of people living in one street want to charge their cars at night. I have also read there is one street in Melbourne where they have had to work out a roster for charging.

The chickens are starting to come home to roost with even solar charging where my daughter has an unresolved problem where the voltage in her transformer area is going over the cut off limit for her inverter and it switches off, so no feed in. This is apparently occurring on both phases.
She now is buying ducted air con to run during the day to at least use some of the wasted power.

Regards PhilipA
Photos showed Tesla Supercharger stations faced long lines during holiday travel, revealing a big hurdle for EV makers | Business Insider (https://www.businessinsider.com.au/holiday-travel-long-wait-times-for-tesla-chargers-2019-12?r=US&IR=T)

Homestar

7th October 2020, 08:44 AM

The infrastructure issues are some of the hardest to overcome and in a place as big and spread out as Australia, even harder. It's not like sticking a normal service station in either, as the power requirements for a bank of chargers that would be needed in places is huge. EV's are very workable for a daily commute in the city particularly if you invest in solar and batteries so then you can charge your vehicle each night with no reliance on the mains - big extra expense though and currently would probably never get a pay back against the cost of fuel over the life of the system/ev either so only those that could afford to do this would, leaving them out of the equation for most families etc as a second car if this was needed.

I think Hydrogen will be the go - the ev platforms that OEM's are building now will still be usable, just a fuel cell in place of the battery bank. Then all that is needed is for service stations to put in hydrogen pumps same as LPG when it came out - still a long way to go but I think it will get there. In the mean time, battery ev's sort of fill the gap in places.

NavyDiver

7th October 2020, 09:30 AM

Its clearly not ideal to have a range maxed out for our CO2 emitters or an a FCEV or EV. Trying a 1000km non stop in my disco with out the long range tank I had in the 2005 would be overoptimistic. With a nice tail wind, light load and smooth road I might possibly just make it

The range and recharge time of current generation of batteries is fine for 95% of commuting.

Frequent Holidays, touring, towing Boats, trailers and caravans and the 5% who travel 500km plus in a day might be better holding back a little.

Toyota [B]e-TNGA platform rumor has a 700% range increase using a solid state battery which as usual is five years or interestingly possibly in production 2023.
Besides the hype of Tesla, Nikola similar Americans. Hino/Toyota, Hyundai and others are already in the mix for Hydrogen trucks. Trucks, Buses and similar overcome the issue with needed a wide distribution network or recharging or Hydrogen refueling as set routes make a point to point or central refueling easy.

BMW i Hydrogen NEXT Fuel Cell EV and soon suspect even our landrovers will be in the mix [biggrin]

Samsung set to smash EV battery range wide open or Toyota may already have for 2023 it at its new plant being build with Mazda in a nifty new J.V. in America.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBzLfHcHMW8

PhilipA

7th October 2020, 10:51 AM

so I guess that petrol stations will install Cryogenic tanks to store liquid hydrogen. They will need enormous tanks to store a significant amount of liquid Hydrogen .

I wonder how much that will cost?
Hydrogen is found naturally in the molecular H2 form. To exist as a liquid, H2 must be cooled below its critical point of 33 K. However, for it to be in a fully liquid state at atmospheric pressure, H2 needs to be cooled to 20.28 K (−252.87 °C; −423.17 °F).[QUOTE]
Won't it need very strong refrigeration to be stored as a liquid for long periods.

What are the safety aspects of cryogenic tanks around the place?

[QUOTE]Liquid hydrogen can be used as the fuel for an internal combustion engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine) or fuel cell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell). Various submarines (Type 212 submarine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_212_submarine), Type 214 submarine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_214_submarine)) and concept hydrogen vehicles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle) have been built using this form of hydrogen (see DeepC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeepC), BMW H2R (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_H2R)). Due to its similarity, builders can sometimes modify and share equipment with systems designed for liquefied natural gas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_natural_gas) (LNG). However, because of the lower volumetric energy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Energy_density_in_energy_storage_an d_in_fuel), the hydrogen volumes needed for combustion are large. Unless direct injection (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_injection#Direct_injection) is used, a severe gas-displacement effect also hampers maximum breathing and increases pumping losses.

Regards PhilipA

101RRS

7th October 2020, 11:42 AM

Like LPG - being pressurised in a tank will keep Hydrogen as a liquid in a tank - no refridgeration needed - nothing new about that technology.

NavyDiver

7th October 2020, 11:46 AM

so I guess that petrol stations will install Cryogenic tanks to store liquid hydrogen. They will need enormous tanks to store a significant amount of liquid Hydrogen .

I wonder how much that will cost?[QUOTE]Hydrogen is found naturally in the molecular H2 form. To exist as a liquid, H2 must be cooled below its critical point of 33 K. However, for it to be in a fully liquid state at atmospheric pressure, H2 needs to be cooled to 20.28 K (−252.87 °C; −423.17 °F).[QUOTE]

Won't it need very strong refrigeration to be stored as a liquid for long periods.

What are the safety aspects of cryogenic tanks around the place?

Regards PhilipA

Fully agree hydrogen storage and transport is a cost consideration. Storing and transporting as ammonia is a very nifty CSIRO development. Of interest perhaps is fuel cells can be ammonia or hydrogen.

"ZeroAvia flying a six-seater Piper Malibu plane from Cranfield University’s airport." ZeroAvia enables zero emission air travel at scale, starting with 500 mile short-haul trips, at half of today’s cost. ZeroAvia’s hydrogen-electric powertrain is projected to have lower operating costs than its jet-fueled competition due to lower fuel and maintenance costs.

We know how much service costs out 4wds engines. Not Cheap. love the idea of long term savings on maintenance EV or FCEV will give us.

"Think about the hydrogen tanks plus fuel cell system as a really good battery. You charge it with hydrogen, so you put gas or liquid hydrogen into your tank, but the output of that in the aircraft is electricity. That electricity then is used by the electric motors to drive the propellers. . … We’re already five times better on energy density than the best battery out there, and we can further improve it by a factor of three or four by moving from compressed gas storage hydrogen to liquid hydrogen"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iwkTbgU5iA

"compressed gas has been used in now maybe over 50,000 ground transportation vehicles worldwide. Most of those vehicles are actually in warehouses — material handling equipment, trucks that move around in Amazon warehouses or forklifts — and a lot of them are powered by hydrogen fuel cells, because it’s a high-density fuel, so you don’t have to recharge so often. The fueling takes just minutes, instead of hours recharging a battery"

NavyDiver

7th October 2020, 08:47 PM

This might be a battery to get you moving Bill Gates backed no less this one is 200% current top line Lithium[bigwhistle]

http://QuantumScape, a developer of what are known as solid-state batteries, has entered into a definitive agreement to merge with blank check company Kensington Capital Acquisition Corp.

Enabling a mass market transformation

https://live-quantumscape.pantheonsite.io/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/energy-icon@2x-1.png

Energy

Significantly increases volumetric and gravimetric energy density by eliminating graphite/silicon anode host material.

https://live-quantumscape.pantheonsite.io/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/charge-icon@2x.png

Fast Charge

Enables <15 minute fast charge (0 to 80%) by eliminating lithium diffusion bottleneck in anode host material.

https://live-quantumscape.pantheonsite.io/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/life-icon@2x.png

Life

Increased life by eliminating capacity loss at anode interface.

https://live-quantumscape.pantheonsite.io/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/safety-con@2x.png

Safety

Eliminates organic separator. Solid-state separator is nonflammable and noncombustible.Cost

Lower cost by eliminating anode host material and manufacturing costs.

Ferret

7th October 2020, 11:47 PM

Like LPG - being pressurised in a tank will keep Hydrogen as a liquid in a tank - no refrigeration needed - nothing new about that technology.

No gas can be liquefied, no matter how much pressure is applied, unless it is first cooled below it's 'critical temperature'. For hydrogen that temperature 33K. So refrigeration (and some pressure - 'critical pressure') is needed to get hydrogen to a liquid state.

Once liquefied, Hydrogen will remain as a liquid without further refrigeration only if it's holding tank is perfectly insulated and at least 'critical pressure' is maintained. Once the temperature rises above 33K no amount of pressure will keep it liquid.

prelude

8th October 2020, 06:18 PM

I agree that hydrogen is the go here.

It can be produced in areas with massive amounts of sun and large wasted spaces where solar farms can do their job and transported anywhere. LPG tanker ships already exist and they run on their own gas. Refueling takes as long as filling up a tank of petrol and storage, with modern tech, is pretty safe anyway. I am not sure about batteries but it seems to me that they have a limit in their power density due to chemical stuff. Even the best theoretical battery can not win from petrol or gas IIRC.

Also, local production of hydrogen, if there is a source of water available, is possible. Smaller fuel stations in the outback could have a wind/solar powered hydrogen generator that stores the gas for the next person to fill up. Shell already has some of those "on site" facilities here and there around europe. No, batteries are slow, heavy and not fit for purpose in a vehicle IMHO.

Cheers,
-P

JDNSW

8th October 2020, 06:58 PM

Hydrogen is difficult and expensive to store, not only for the reasons given above, but because it will leak through almost any material including steel of a useful thickness, with the problem exacerbated by pressure. Since hydrogen is flammable over a very wide range of proportions with air, this leakage is a severe safety hazard.

About 99% of hydrogen produced today is via a not particularly energy efficient process from natural gas. It can be produced by electrolysis from water with the only byproduct being oxygen, but this process is energy inefficient and the hydrogen produced is much more expensive that from natural gas. From renewable electricity sources to the wheels of an electric car is probably about twice the energy efficiency of going from the same renewables to the wheels of a hydrogen car.

These problems can be surmounted when the problem cannot be solved using batteries, as with long distance haulage, but there is zero evidence that hydrogen will ever become competitive with batteries for private cars.

V8Ian

8th October 2020, 07:19 PM

If hydrogen is going to be sourced from water, what will be the ramifications to the environment?
Water is a finite resource, in short supply in many areas of this country.

350RRC

8th October 2020, 07:38 PM

If hydrogen is going to be sourced from water, what will be the ramifications to the environment?
Water is a finite resource, in short supply in many areas of this country.

When used (or 'burnt') it becomes............................ water.

DL

V8Ian

8th October 2020, 08:08 PM

When used (or 'burnt') it becomes............................ water.

DL
That alone could cause massive environmental change, in dry areas.

350RRC

8th October 2020, 08:21 PM

That alone could cause massive environmental change, in dry areas.

Not really. The earth re-distributes water to where it goes very efficiently.

Just remember that every glass of water contains at least one H2O molecule that was in the mug of whatever Socrates drank.

DL

V8Ian

8th October 2020, 08:51 PM

My point is that the environments of Babinda and Birdsville have occurred and adapted to the the amount of water in each environment.
The amount of traffic in Birdsville, for the races alone, would have to deposit more water, from hydrogen exhaust, than the annual rainfall. That would have a dramatic, possibly catastrophic, effects on the ecosystem.

Saitch

8th October 2020, 09:39 PM

V8Ian

8th October 2020, 09:48 PM

You're up late for an old fella![bighmmm]
:2up:

101RRS

8th October 2020, 10:04 PM

When used (or 'burnt') it becomes............................ water.

DL

Only if burnt in pure oxygen. When burnt in air as in fuel cells or even an internal combustion engine, water will be formed but it also burns the nitrogen, and can release various oxides of nitrogen into the air. Oxides of nitrogen are dangerous particles that can help create acid rain and take part in other destructive cycles. However the amount of these oxides is small compared to burning fossil fuels.

So while burning Hydrogen in air is relatively clean, it is not totally clean and just getting water out the tail pipe is a bit of a myth.

JDNSW

9th October 2020, 05:55 AM

The concerns about either water use or the effects of the water produced by use of hydrogen are simply ridiculous.

The amount of water required for direct conversion of hydrogen for realistic quantities of hydrogen is trivial compared to the amount of water required for just about any other use - since the hydrogen content of water is 1/8 of the mass of the water, a tank of hydrogen containing 10kg of hydrogen, probably typical for a car, represents only 80l of water, far less than the average per capita use by Australians.

The vision of climatic devastation by a hyrogen economy is equally ridiculous when you consider that the energy content to 1kg of hydrogen requires 3kg of petrol. Since the fuel cell is around three times as efficient as a petrol engine, the practical equivalent is about 9kg of petrol. Which contains about 1/7 of its mass in hydrogen. So existing internal combustion engines are producing more water vapour in their exhaust than would be produced from the same vehicles using hydrogen via fuel cells!

All that is equired to ridicule these suggestions is to simply do a few calculations.

However, similar calculations lead to the conclusion "Hydrogen has been called one of the least efficient and most expensive possible replacements for gasoline (petrol) in terms of reducing greenhouse gases; other technologies may be less expensive and more quickly implemented."

NavyDiver

9th October 2020, 09:01 AM

These problems can be surmounted when the problem cannot be solved using batteries, as with long distance haulage, but there is zero evidence that hydrogen will ever become competitive with batteries for private cars.

I suspect the several Trillion dollars put in to Hydrogen in Germany, Korea, Japan, China, France, UK, US and here just might move the cost base a long way very quickly. Prof Armin Schnettler pointed out a few days ago the 10 times improvement in Siemens Hydrogen Electrolysis and scale up from 1MW size to 25 MW being installed now development of 100 MW units and working on bigger already.

Cost forecast for Clean Hydrogen by almost everyone is substantially below the current large scale Steam reformed hydrogen production.

Move to the battery topic is possibly left in alternative energy[biggrin] Watching with interested significant improvement in that sector with a sprinkle of graphene making current batteries looking very old hat. You can buy first generation of them now Graphene – Real Graphene USA (https://realgrapheneusa.com/graphene/)

Add VW-backed/Bill Gates backing San Jose battery maker QuantumScape with $3USD billion in funding for plans for a solid state battery and start dreaming[biggrin]

JDNSW

9th October 2020, 07:01 PM

......
Cost forecast for Clean Hydrogen by almost everyone is substantially below the current large scale Steam reformed hydrogen production.
....

Still losing out to batteries everywhere that these are feasible, including cars, because the battery cycle is far more energy efficient (less solar, wind needs to be built). But there is a future for hydrogen in heavy transport - air, sea, land.

scarry

9th October 2020, 08:00 PM

Still losing out to batteries everywhere that these are feasible, including cars, because the battery cycle is far more energy efficient (less solar, wind needs to be built). But there is a future for hydrogen in heavy transport - air, sea, land.

Hydrogen is also a much better convenient option,than electric, for large cars and 4WD,particularly those that tow extensively.
And also for commercial utes,vans,etc that are used for business and need to run all day every day, often fully loaded,some towing huge loads as well.

RANDLOVER

10th October 2020, 06:57 AM

Still losing out to batteries everywhere that these are feasible, including cars, because the battery cycle is far more energy efficient (less solar, wind needs to be built). But there is a future for hydrogen in heavy transport - air, sea, land.

Which is why I like the idea of a super capacitor in the car which will charge fast and then discharge into the on board battery, but I suspect this might just move the current draw bottleneck from the car's cable to the local power cables overheads.

JDNSW

10th October 2020, 07:41 AM

Hydrogen is also a much better convenient option,than electric, for large cars and 4WD,particularly those that tow extensively.
And also for commercial utes,vans,etc that are used for business and need to run all day every day, often fully loaded,some towing huge loads as well.

The exact vehicle size that will mark the point where hydrogen will be more attractive than batteries is not clear, and will vary as technology changes. I still doubt it will ever be ahead of batteries even for large passenger cars. For some businesses with utes towing trailers, it may become attractive, but these will be niche vehicles, unlikely to sell in the large numbers that their current counterparts do, as they will be far less attractive for most use than EVs. Bear in mind that existing ICE vehicles will still comprise the vast majority of the fleet for at least the next ten to fifteen years, even if few are being sold by the end of that period.

What you may end up with is the situation we had with diesel when I got my first diesel Landrover in the early sixties - while diesel was in widespread use for long distance trucking and buses, as the owner of a deisel light vehicle I quickly learnt the whereabouts of the three or four service stations in Brisbane (not on the highways out of town) that sold diesel.

Homestar

10th October 2020, 09:22 AM

scarry

10th October 2020, 12:23 PM

There’s no way our electrical infrastructure can be made to handle a world with few/zero ICE vehicles in 10 to 15 years if everyone moves to EV’s. I would say 40 to 50 is more realistic and who knows what mix of energy we’ll be using by then. There’s almost no suburban street or new development that could handle everyone changing their vehicles each night and no developer is going to put in big enough subs until it’s mandated by law - current housing developments supplies are tapped out now on hot days, they simply aren’t capable of everyone sticking a 15 amp charger or bigger in their garages and expecting things not to go pop somewhere up the line.

Shopping centres, etc don’t have the electrical capacity to put more than a few dozen chargers in their car parks and don’t even ask if our major cities can handle more load - their tapped out as well with the subs groaning already and despite a massive upgrade program being undertaken it’s a 10 year plan just to replace existing aging infrastructure with new similar equipment.

I think most people don’t appreciate or understand how much load would be shifted to the grid by moving all our vehicles energy needs to it. And there’s no spare capacity in generation any more either with the big power stations going the way of the dodo. Short of everyone having rooftop solar AND batteries then it won’t happen and I can’t see most families being able to afford the $20K plus this would cost on top of their expensive new EV.

Exactly,i have been saying this for years,but have been shot down,others seem to think the power issue, is no issue at all.
In actual fact,as you have said,it is huge.Probably the biggest issue with EV's,apart from their inconvenience for many.

Of the 200 new Servos built in Aus in the last 2 years,not ONE,that is NONE have been fitted with charging points for EV's.

Oh,and rooftop solar is not convenient for many,think renters,people in large unit towers,where there is limited roof space,and on it goes.

And posts keep popping up on here from some that diesel is dead,that is definitely a pipe dream.Many vehicle manufactures are still doing R&D on Diesel engines,mainly because for many years to come there will be no alternative.
And some places in Europe banning IC's in 10yrs time,they are dreaming as well.Sure it gives some a warm and fuzzy feeling,and makes them supposedly look good,but in reality,blind Freddy can see it isn't going to happen.

AK83

11th October 2020, 07:49 AM

If hydrogen is going to be sourced from water, what will be the ramifications to the environment?
Water is a finite resource, in short supply in many areas of this country.

Someone may correct me if I'm wrong here .. but!
It's not 'water' as you think it's going to be. I'm sure the info I read is that salt water is easier to do hydrolysis to convert to hydrogen .. so water .. ie. the precious resource type of water is safe and isn't the stuff they want to convert into hydrogen.
I dunno if the salt water from ocean is, but I remember that the major issue is going to be the byproduct of chlorine, and what to do with it if they produce hydrogen this way.

....

Oh,and rooftop solar is not convenient for many,think renters,people in large unit towers,where there is limited roof space,and on it goes.

....

Don't forget the batteries! Roof solar is an easy fix .. govt's give rebates, property owners take it up, add a bit more to the cost of the rental, they make more money per year with very little capital outlay.
But the battery is the important component if wanted for charging the vehicle(and keep the grid safe) if everyone begins the switch over to (grid) EVs.
Just having solar panels isn't going to help charge your vehicles unless you have spares.
Think about it, 99% of the workforce goes out to work during the day and charges at night .. solar is pretty much useless here without some reserve capacity (ie. battery of some type).
if you were a night shift worker .. awesome. But for most of these 'masses' .. without batteries to go with their solar arrays .. not a solution to what Homestar wrote about.

it's interesting to listen to conversations with 'renter' types nowadays.
A few I know(have known)( would prefer to pay a few dollars more per week WITH solar, then pay less rent without. It's a negatively geared investors new found marketing advantage.
I admit I live near the latte sipping green belt that is Brunswick(Melb) .. so their chatter may be a bit more biased in that way.

NavyDiver

11th October 2020, 08:42 AM

Exactly,i have been saying this for years,but have been shot down,others seem to think the power issue, is no issue at all.
In actual fact,as you have said,it is huge.Probably the biggest issue with EV's,apart from their inconvenience for many.

Of the 200 new Servos built in Aus in the last 2 years,not ONE,that is NONE have been fitted with charging points for EV's.

Oh,and rooftop solar is not convenient for many,think renters,people in large unit towers,where there is limited roof space,and on it goes.

And posts keep popping up on here from some that diesel is dead,that is definitely a pipe dream.Many vehicle manufactures are still doing R&D on Diesel engines,mainly because for many years to come there will be no alternative.
And some places in Europe banning IC's in 10yrs time,they are dreaming as well.Sure it gives some a warm and fuzzy feeling,and makes them supposedly look good,but in reality,blind Freddy can see it isn't going to happen.

Volvo suggesting the next Xc60 will be its last ICE engine. We would be joking to say diesel is dead. It seem likely its demise is on the boards some time in the future just like us shuffling of the mortal coil and toil perhaps? :)

Your "many years to come there will be no alternative" may be viewed with a similar degree of skepticism. You may be right I may be crazy :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo9t5XK0FhA

JDNSW

11th October 2020, 10:51 AM

There’s no way our electrical infrastructure can be made to handle a world with few/zero ICE vehicles in 10 to 15 years if everyone moves to EV’s. I would say 40 to 50 is more realistic and who knows what mix of energy we’ll be using by then........

When I wrote 10-15 years, I was used these figures to make the point that even if this happens, most cars will still be ICE at the end of this period. This does not mark the end of the ICE vehicle, even if manufacture of them ceased then - a reasonable average life is for the last ones produced is at least twenty years (my two cars in pretty much daily use are 50 and 36 years old), so even stopping production of ICE vehicles in 10-15 years does not mean tht our infrastructure has to cope with 100% EVs in 10-15 years - more like 30-35 years, with the changeover being very gradual, so there will be plenty of time to upgrade infrastructure, in the same way that Australia changed from a largely public transport nation in 1945 to a car oriented nation twenty or thirty years later.

NavyDiver

12th October 2020, 08:29 AM

When I wrote 10-15 years, I was used these figures to make the point that even if this happens, most cars will still be ICE at the end of this period. This does not mark the end of the ICE vehicle, even if manufacture of them ceased then - a reasonable average life is for the last ones produced is at least twenty years (my two cars in pretty much daily use are 50 and 36 years old), so even stopping production of ICE vehicles in 10-15 years does not mean tht our infrastructure has to cope with 100% EVs in 10-15 years - more like 30-35 years, with the changeover being very gradual, so there will be plenty of time to upgrade infrastructure, in the same way that Australia changed from a largely public transport nation in 1945 to a car oriented nation twenty or thirty years later.

We do still have horses [thumbsupbig]. Its is Michelin with the 2024 Le Mans Target "the Group and Symbio became partners of the Mission H24 project which aims to apply hydrogen technology to endurance vehicles competing in the 2024 24 Hours of Le Mans (https://www.michelin.com/en/press-releases/michelin-hails-the-france-hydrogen-strategy-plan-and-reaffirms-its-hydrogen-goals/)."

"Fabio Ferrari will be in charge of developing the Michelin Group’s Hydrogen Mobility strategy and supporting its deployment."

Sounds Pedigree?

Symbio link (https://www.symbio.one/en/)in case any one is interested

DiscoMick

12th October 2020, 09:14 AM

Townsville is getting a renewable hydrogen plant. Ignore the politicians and the company gives some interesting info.

Townsville to get NQ’s first renewable hydrogen plant - Energy Source & Distribution (https://esdnews.com.au/townsville-to-get-nqs-first-renewable-hydrogen-plant/)

Homestar

12th October 2020, 09:35 AM

When I wrote 10-15 years, I was used these figures to make the point that even if this happens, most cars will still be ICE at the end of this period. This does not mark the end of the ICE vehicle, even if manufacture of them ceased then - a reasonable average life is for the last ones produced is at least twenty years (my two cars in pretty much daily use are 50 and 36 years old), so even stopping production of ICE vehicles in 10-15 years does not mean tht our infrastructure has to cope with 100% EVs in 10-15 years - more like 30-35 years, with the changeover being very gradual, so there will be plenty of time to upgrade infrastructure, in the same way that Australia changed from a largely public transport nation in 1945 to a car oriented nation twenty or thirty years later.

All good. :)

Average age of a vehicle on Australia is around 10 years, so will be interesting to see if this blows out if/when ICE vehicles start to leave the market and people hang onto what is left.

Saitch

12th October 2020, 12:51 PM

All good. :)

Average age of a vehicle on Australia is around 10 years, so will be interesting to see if this blows out if/when ICE vehicles start to leave the market and people hang onto what is left.

So, seeing both my vehicles are more than 10 years old, does this make me 'Above Average' or 'Below Average'?................and 'Yes', I realise I'm leading with my chin, here![biggrin]

Homestar

12th October 2020, 12:55 PM

Not sure if it's above or below - depends on what metrics you use. :)

It's a win as far as I'm concerned though. [thumbsupbig]

prelude

13th October 2020, 05:54 PM

Interesting thread. As far as my knowledge and opinion goes: Hydrogen might be less efficient than a battery but it is way more versatile. You can use it in a fuel cell, burn it like you do LPG in an ICE, use it in turbine applications etc. etc. This means you can run a ship on it, planes might be feasible I do not know, a gas or coal powered plant could be fairly easily converted, older ICE engines can simply keep on running reducing environmental waste by recycling verhicles early, well you name it! It can also be produced large scale in area's where it makes sense, let's say the Arabian peninsula where all the oil barons live these days. They have the persian gulf to tap into for water... (yes I know, needs desalination and what not but still) and have an abundance of sun to build proper solar plants (not by means of PV panels but large solar towers or whatever) The infrastructure of tankers, fuel stations, etc. already exists and altering them / augmenting them would be fairly inconsequential compared to the massive amounts of work needed to up the capacity of the power grid needed to go all battery vehicles, let alone the power generation needed. And no a few solar panels more is not the correct answer imho.

Also, batteries are by no means environmentally friendly (or humane for that matter, see cobalt mining child labour in the congo for instance) at this time and solar panels are certainly not either since they contain large amounts of dirty stuff.

I think none of the options are perfect but I see a bit more value in going hydrogen at least in parallel for the foreseeable future.

Cheers,
-P

3toes

15th October 2020, 07:24 AM

Have seen hydrogen vehicle refuelling facility here in the U.K. they have solar and wind power with water. Make the hydrogen as required to fill the tanks. Vehicles come in and fill up as if it was a petrol station. Amazing how little infrastructure and supply line logistics are required.

Both Toyota and Honda have said that they see battery as a temporary measure until hydrogen can be miniaturised so the gas can be made in the vehicle as required rather than held in a tank for use

101RRS

15th October 2020, 10:44 AM

hydrogen can be miniaturised so the gas can be made in the vehicle as required rather than held in a tank for use

Sorry how does a car generate the power required to generate enough hydrogen to actually run it? Perpetual motion comes to mind [bigrolf]

You would need something like a small nuclear plant under the bonnet to generate the power required - then might as well just run on the steam generated.

The bottom line is that to make hydrogen it takes a huge amount of power - and that has been its limitation up to now - with renewable energy becoming cheap and plentiful, the generation of hydrogen becomes more economical and environmentally friendly.

Garry