D250 vs P300 Defender 110 S

[TB]

I've been poring over every tidbit related to the new Defender for the last couple of years, and I pretty much settled on what I would order – a D240 110 SE with some essential extras would do great for many thousands of km of rough roads and tricky tracks exploring the country. I'm not a caravan kind of guy but could see myself taking an Opus 2 or something light like that on longer trips with my wife.

Now Land Rover Australia has got me in a serious pickle with the MY21 changes. No more four-cylinder diesels coming our way, and some major caveats on the six-cylinder models that replace them:
- SE's minimum engine is D300, which doesn't permit 18" rims
- They are mild hybrids, which means they have batteries and stuff taking up room I'd like to use beneath the rear luggage floor
- Worst of all, these engines don't come with a centre diff any more!

Instead of a centre diff, the rear drive shaft is rigidly attached to the transfer case output while the front shaft gets drive through a variable clutch pack. This combines with another clutch on the front right half shaft to permit the front drive shaft and crown gear in the front diff to spin down completely when front drive isn't needed – it's claimed to improve fuel economy by 1.7%. But I'm nervous about what compromises it might involve for off-road use, and not keen to be among the very first customers for LR's new drivetrain experiment. Maybe it'll be awesome and super reliable (it is just a clutch pack after all) but nobody knows if it's actually *good* yet.

18" wheels are non-negotiable for me, so the options on the table are the D250 diesel six or the P300 petrol four in an S spec. The P300 avoids DPF, EGR and AdBlue. It has a ~90L fuel tank and is claimed to return the same L/100 as the larger diesel. It's lighter. It's not a hybrid of any kind, so maximum rear space is available under the floor. And it has the locking centre diff that we all know and trust.

In the D250's favour, it's a diesel and it has more torque.

Anybody want to talk me out of ordering a petrol Defender for exploring the unpaved country?

[scarry]

Anybody want to talk me out of ordering a petrol Defender for exploring the unpaved country?

So thats two clutch packs to replace an electric centre diff.More complications,and possibly expensive repairs.

Yet in their current range,centre diffs seem very reliable.

It didn't take much to talk me out of one,i don't want to be doing the guinea pig testing for LR,i have done enough of that over the years.

[TB]

So thats two clutch packs to replace an electric centre diff.More complications,and possibly expensive repairs.

I'm not actually worried about the reliability of the clutches – the electronic locking diffs are all implemented using clutch packs and I've not heard of one of those failing. My concern is more about how it behaves as a differential to distribute torque both front and rear when all wheels have good traction but you're in a turn. Something has to slip.

[scarry]

I'm not actually worried about the reliability of the clutches – the electronic locking diffs are all implemented using clutch packs and I've not heard of one of those failing. My concern is more about how it behaves as a differential to distribute torque both front and rear when all wheels have good traction but you're in a turn. Something has to slip.

Really hard to know without a lot more info.

I am no engineer,but I am sure LR would have that sorted.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Graeme]

I like that constant 4wd with open diffs allocating torque assists cornering on sealed surfaces. With front wheels travelling further than the rears through corners I cannot see how clutches in the drive to the front wheels can make the front wheels turn faster than the rears and therefore cannot assist unless the rears slip. The clutches in the centre and rear diff if an e-diff only come into play when wheels begin to slip or as a preventative to slipping rather than providing normal drive.

The extra weight of the batteries and the space they occupy for such little reward when touring would have me looking for a way to remove them.

[TB]

The extra weight of the batteries and the space they occupy for such little reward when touring would have me looking for a way to remove them.

I could be confused and mistaken about this, but I think that in at least one of the new engines (P400 or D250/D300) the electric motor for the mild hybrid system is also the starter motor. The MHEV stuff is pretty deeply integrated into the design and I can imagine any attempt to remove the electronics from the boot being something of a problem.

[Graeme]

I suspect likewise and would do my best to avoid vehicles with such features.

[TB]

Just thinking really hard about the diff v clutch thing for the front drive... it seems impossible that the LR engineers didn't think about the need for the front to go faster than the rear. So what if they took that into account and actually overdrive the front? You could calculate from your minimum turning radius what the relative speeds need to be, then build that into either the TC or the front diff.

That would be a rear-wheel-drive system with on-demand recruitment of the front wheels when seemingly needed, but not for too long because the clutch slip would generate heat even when driving in a straight line.

I don't get it. Everything about this new system sounds dumb, especially for the engine and vehicle it's been deployed in. Really hope I'm missing something.

[Graeme]

That the e-diff is optional indicates the market that LR is targeting.

The disconnecting front drive may make the front smoother until the front tail-shaft has to suddenly spin-up as the clutches engage. Backlash in the centre diff would be gone though.

[weeman]

My understanding of the new system is that the vehicle during normal operation is 100% rear wheel drive with the front axle / drive shafts completely disconnected. The front axle only engages via the clutch packs when the TC system detects loss of traction.

I was annoyed when JLR announced the new engines so soon, but am not regretting purchasing a D240. I think the MHEV just adds additional complications and points of failure with little benefit and the front axle disconnect is purely to reduce emissions and is not being introduced into the P300 or P400 vehicles.

[scarry]

My understanding of the new system is that the vehicle during normal operation is 100% rear wheel drive with the front axle / drive shafts completely disconnected. The front axle only engages via the clutch packs when the TC system detects loss of traction.

I was annoyed when JLR announced the new engines so soon, but am not regretting purchasing a D240. I think the MHEV just adds additional complications and points of failure with little benefit and the front axle disconnect is purely to reduce emissions and is not being introduced into the P300 or P400 vehicles.

So it’s essentially back to two wheel drive until more is needed,to save a negligible amount of fuel,but over complicate things[bighmmm]

As for the D4, if you watch the Ediff data on a GAP tool,while someone else is driving the vehicle,it modulates in and out at times on the bitumen.Someone a while back put up a screen shot of this happening,on here.

[weeman]

The below diagram shows the new driveline disconnect.

165408

[TB]

That the e-diff is optional indicates the market that LR is targeting.

I dunno, I'm actually happier with their current treatment of the rear diff than on any Disco or Defender in the past. D4s with rear e-diff are rare as. D5's had it under an "advanced" off road pack. Defenders never had an option at all, to my knowledge.

Now it's part of the "off road pack" that a lot more people are going for on the new model.


Re the 6 cyl diesels and the weird drivetrain... I wonder if they're just *so* squeezed by emissions requirements that they are forced to make crazy compromises like this. Bloody wish JLRA had kept the D240 on offer for this country.

Oh and TFL on YouTube bought a P300. Watching with interest.

[Loubrey]

Now Land Rover Australia has got me in a serious pickle with the MY21 changes. No more four-cylinder diesels coming our way, and some major caveats on the six-cylinder models that replace them:
- SE's minimum engine is D300, which doesn't permit 18" rims
- They are mild hybrids, which means they have batteries and stuff taking up room I'd like to use beneath the rear luggage floor
- Worst of all, these engines don't come with a centre diff any more!



TB,

According to our dealer principal in Perth (Barbagallo Land Rover), LRA have not released any model or specification details yet. If the info above relates to the snippets released to the press, its almost all complete nonsense.

Once the Defender builder is up and running again, we will have actual information on what models, trim level and specification will be on offer to us in Australia.

I've just quickly checked it and only P400 are still showing, so LRA has not released final information to anyone yet (unless the dealer principal is the smoothest fibber I've ever come across).

Cheers,

Lou

[TB]

I've just quickly checked it and only P400 are still showing, so LRA has not released final information to anyone yet (unless the dealer principal is the smoothest fibber I've ever come across).

Well, I've seen the MY21 ordering guide spreadsheet for Australia. Not that it makes much difference to any of the points I raised... maybe they'll let us have D250 in the SE trim so as to enable 18" wheels there. But that's the least relevant part.

Everything I have discussed regarding the MHEV components in the boot and the as-yet-incomprehensible replacement of the centre diff are not just guesses. I've seen photos of the former and just a few posts above us somebody shared the internal training sheet (which I had also seen before) that confirms and expands on what the press releases made clear about the diesel sixes.

And just now I checked the UK online build tool – D200, D250, D300 and P300 are the only engines you can configure on a regular 110 right now. For the P400's you have to go with a fancier spec. The old 4-cyl diesels have vanished.

Spec sheet I just read gives the P300 850kg of payload vs 800kg in the others. Sounding better and better.

[scarry]

The below diagram shows the new driveline disconnect.

165408

I would rather have a factory fitted larger fuel tank,and a manufactures 5 yr,unlimited Km warranty.
Surely that would be a better help with sales, than this new driveline system?

[jon3950]

I would rather have a factory fitted larger fuel tank,and a manufactures 5 yr,unlimited Km warranty.
Surely that would be a better help with sales, than this new driveline system?

Agree with what you’re saying but I doubt its aimed at increasing sales. Its most likely aimed at reducing overall fleet emissions and a reduction of 1.7% is reasonably significant. To be fair, it looks like quite a clever system and given how well the Disco’s e-diff works, which is based on the same system, I doubt it would materially affect its off-road capability.

However, with its added complexity I would much prefer a conventional system. But then I would say that, I drive a Defender.

I’m starting to think that for those of us who would want to use one as a tourer a second hand D240 will be a good buy in two or three years.

Cheers,
Jon

[cripesamighty]

I’m starting to think that for those of us who would want to use one as a tourer a second hand D240 will be a good buy in two or three years.

Yeah, I'm kind of tossing up the same thing.

[sported]

Good topic TB!

I'm struggling as well with which engine to go, the decent acceleration of the P300 and highest payload is compelling. Am planning to use it for towing a 1.7T ATM camper trailer and doing some remote outback touring. I'm less concerned about the wheels as the 20's can fit light truck tyres with reasonable sidewall and I'll be going 7 seat (seating/payload/axle load all improve) so the MHEV batteries don't worry me space wise because I will lose most of that great under floor space anyway.

The Y62 Patrol doesn't have a centre diff and probably has the same setup "with drive fed to the front axle via an electronically-controlled multi-plate clutch" (In detail: the all-new Nissan Patrol (https://asia.nissannews.com/en/releases/release-ef02c79d05978629bf6f49c41405b257-in-detail-the-all-new-nissan-patrol)) and they generally have the reputation of having a pretty solid drivetrain.

My thinking on the new diesels and the MHEV:
*Happy to give the newer drivetrain type a go as it's been working fine on the Y62 and no doubt many other vehicles
*100% rear drive would be fun (I'm sure there's a way to frig it to get 100% rear with e-diff locked), and the rear components are probably built tougher to cope with more rear torque distribution than the other models
*When you get the e-diff rear you also seem to get torque vectoring so I'd bet handling with the electromagnetic centre and e-diff would be sharp
*On Toyota's at least the starter motors and alternators fail regularly from mud (my Prado's starter failed twice, once in outback QLD after a wet Simpson crossing). I don't know if the MHEV generator/starter would be more or less reliable - if it's sealed or less vulnerable in some way it would be a bonus for touring and off road. I also wonder if it would have a higher current output than the models with alternators
*Unfortunately the MHEV batteries on the P400 RRS are only 0.2kWh (17AH @ 12V) so I guess the Defender will be the same. Could have been an interesting concept using the MHEV batteries to power a fridge for touring after stepping down from 48V to 12 V. But in any case such low capacity lithium batteries probably don't take up that much boot space anyway so probably isn't an issue it being there

So personally I'd be fine with the MHEV, but weight is my biggest concern. I'd like to see some weighbridge results as according to this thread (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l462-discovery-5-a/279614-weighbridge-weight.html) the D5 weighs a lot more than the LR spec sheet would have you believe. The Defender may not be as bad as the D5 though as the base model Defender is probably closer in spec to the S and SE than the base D5 is to the S and the SE (base D5 is coil sprung and no low range which is what the spec sheet would be based on). Would be nice to know actual weights to see if I could afford the payload hit from an MHEV with pano roof...

If anyone with an L663 is keen I'd be happy to pay for the weighbridge if you'd be happy to go for a drive...