I thought....................

[4bee]

................. Petrol Pump filler nozzles & hoses were earthed.

Lemme explain.

Called into fill up (yes, I am a millionaire :D) the 2A today plus a Jerrycan strapped in the back. Rear flap up, side window flaps up, both sliding glass windows open.
Did the main tank & then the JC. Went inside to pay & this geezer rudely tells me, "Next time take the can out & fill it on the ground". "Huh", sez me. "It's all open & I thought the hose is earthed". He ignored that one & went on about static electricity yada yada yada.

He didn't tell me while I was doing it & there are no signs re this. Use of Mobys, yes, but not filling JCs.

Anyone know if he was talking bollocks or the truth?

[101RRS]

Ya car is not earthed, so why should a jerry in the car be any different to filling the car tank?

[4bee]

Precisely. That is why I understood it was earthed when the filler nozzle contacted the vehicle. :confused:

[walker]

There was a good reason for doing this....just can't think of it at the moment.


Anyway, I remember seeing that a few people around the world have been blown up after filling up Jerry's while they are on the car or trailer. :o

[disconut]

http://www.docep.wa.gov.au/ResourcesSafety/Sections/Dangerous_Goods/pdf/DG%20FAQs/Storage/dg_faqs_storage_fuelinfosheet.pdf

See page 5 of 5 re filling drums etc.
The nozzle should be in contact with the drum, indicating that the hose would be conductive.

Trev.

[DiscoTDI]

In your situation he didnt know his **** from his elbow, as your jerrycan is as stable as your fuel tank, where it is an issue is with regular vehicles that dont use metal as a feature and use this strange stuff called carpet which insulates the jerry can from the metal of the car and the carpet is a lovely storage point for static which then in turn creates a spark.

Technically speaking every vehicle should attach an earth strap before filling just as tankers are meant to do when they decant into the tanks.

btw did you know that you should never fill your motorcycle unless you put it on its side stand, has been a few cases of bikes going up in flames, riders included.

[4bee]

Portable metal drums and cans should be filled withmetal spouts that are held in contact with the container throughout the filling operation to prevent static accumulation and discharge. However, plastic containers are not conductive to the metal filling spout andcan accumulate a static charge on the liquid surface and discharge to the spout as the liquid level rises. When large plastic containers are filled, a grounding rod should be inserted to the bottom of the container before filling. A recent survey documented 27 fires involving both metal and plastic filling when a plastic truck bed or carpeted car trunk supported the container. However, small plastic containers (e. g., one gallon) are less of a problem if the filling velocity is slow and the container is placed on the ground surface.
Just found this. Maybe it was plastic drums that went bang?

Easy for them, Caltex/Woolworths to make a blanket ban. Then again, he may have spouted off without knowing why?


Ed. Yep that WA link explains it well enough. If it is so important, one would think signage would be mandatory before they first opened their doors. Console Operators can't be expected to watch everybody, but in this case there were 3 of them behind the counter.
In the 2A I have a rubber mat & the Discovery, I have dispensed with the original carpet & also fitted ribbed rubber mat. (For Sirs greater pleasure ;))

[LandyAndy]

I think you guys may have missed the point.
I would NEVER fill a container INSIDE the vehicle.Too easy to spill,then you have the vapours inside a presumably warm at least interior.By time you go in and pay you have the possibility of a big bang when you get in(NUMEROUS IGNITION POSSABILITIES).
Im sure this is what the attendant was scared of,just remember he may go up with you.
Perhaps we need to get mythbusters and Buster to research this one:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
Andrew

[4bee]

Point taken Andrew.
Sounds like he didn't know exactly why he was sayin' what he was & was simply being a Parrot.

[disconut]

I think you guys may have missed the point.
I would NEVER fill a container INSIDE the vehicle.Too easy to spill,then you have the vapours inside a presumably warm at least interior.By time you go in and pay you have the possibility of a big bang when you get in(NUMEROUS IGNITION POSSABILITIES).
Im sure this is what the attendant was scared of,just remember he may go up with you.
Perhaps we need to get mythbusters and Buster to research this one:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
Andrew

The link posted above alludes to this very point.

Trev.

[JDNSW]

I agree with Landyandy - the issue is spillage. Apparently this is a NSW regulation (probably elsewhere as well) as I found out from my local fuel agent. Creates a problem with filling 200l drums - you can't fill them in the ute, and once filled on the ground you can't lift them into the ute!
John

[DEFENDERZOOK]

metal jerrys are meant to be filled on the ground.......it does earth them.....

and something probably no-one knows is....you are meant to earth the nozzle to the vehicle before it touches the vehicle.....

how....

by picking up the nozzle from the bowser....and with the other hand.....
at arms length from the filling point....you should touch the vehicle.....this will/should discharge/earth the vehicle to the bowser.....

why.....

because you may have a spark jump from the nozzle to the metal filler on the tank.....
you know.....the bit where all the fuel vapour comes out from when you remove the filler cap.....

ever step out of your car and get zapped when you touch the door to close it.....?
that spark...!!
thats all it takes.....

[rick130]

Des, read Mike/Tombraiders response/s on this thread.
http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php't=27017&page=3

[4bee]

:) Thanks Rick. I have just posted on that thread.

D.

[cols110]

Des, to do things by the book, your jerry can should be earthed via an earthing wire(this is to an approved earthing wire bashed into the ground with it resistance checked) then once your jerry can is earthed, then it should be opened and refueled, the pump should also be appropriately earthed, so that there is not chance what so ever of a potential difference between the pump and your jerry, if it was an aircraft you would even have to go one step further and run another strap between your refuelling rig and aircraft/jerry can. The flash point of petrol would be in the range of -30 to 50c so any spark between the two due to a different potential could make a large bang. As for taking it out and putting it on the ground, it may or may not help earth it. I would be guessing that now days the tyres on you vehicle are designed to dissapate any static build up, don` know how you do that in rubber, but I bet Mr Michelin could shed some light on this, that is why you don`t have to earth your vehicle before filling it up.

Go to your local airport and watch someone fill up a light aircraft and you will see what I mean about the earthing procedure.

[disconut]

I would be guessing that now days the tyres on you vehicle are designed to dissapate any static build up, don` know how you do that in rubber, but I bet Mr Michelin could shed some light on this, that is why you don`t have to earth your vehicle before filling it up.

Could be the carbon content of the tyre?

Trev.

[cols110]

Possibly, but I know on aircraft years ago we had to religiously earth them, but now days we dont bother, as they earth thru the tyres, so I spose its the same as cars. Years ago you were able to get the little earthing strap that bolted onto cars, but I have`nt seem one of the for a long time.

Hmmm, with ref to Mr Michelin, after thinking about it, I doubt he could help us either as he died a few weeks ago, we will have to get someone else on the case.

[disconut]

I think from memory the snow tyres fitted on the Hercules C130 Aircraft had wire all through them as well.

Trev.

[DeeJay]

I work with an LPG Distributer, I used to drive a tanker for a couple of years B4 that.
With regard to the Warning signs at Servo's I know the "big 3" - Shell, Mobil & BP, all only bother with the basic warning signs because-
1/. They carry minimum legal weight.
2/. Who reads em?? They are only in English anyway..
3/. If the general public knew the risk they took -ie all the signs were displayed and they read them , no one would self fill.

Technically you should wear gloves when refuelling LPG ( Not sure about Petrol- probably coz the tanker drivers do) and they are available at the console - but you have to ask for them. Who knows that?- there are no signs.

To give an example one of our customers (for BBQ Gas) had a major explosion when a rep with a new car - it had no "O" ring in the filler- merrily put 52 litres out onto the forecourt. The console operators view was blocked by a furniture truck and there was a terrific bang when one of those foodie vans pulled up. It had a pie warmer going. 3 people off to casualty:(
It went to court and fingers were pointed everywhere and one of the counter accusations was that there is "No Smoking" but no "No Naked Flame" signs displayed. Have a look next time you fill up. They still don't, and that incident happened 13 years ago.

[4bee]

Des, to do things by the book, your jerry can should be earthed via an earthing wire(this is to an approved earthing wire bashed into the ground with it resistance checked) then once your jerry can is earthed, then i


I suppose if I did ask politely, Col, Mr Caltex Console Operator might let me do it.

Sort of like, "Eeeerrrr, excuse me mate. Do you mind if I use me 3/4" hammer drill to drill through the forecourt 'cos I wanna knock a big FO earth spike in as me mate cols110 on AULRO told me to do".

Yep, if I'm polite, I reckon that'll do it.:D:D:D

[scrambler]

"Next time take the can out & fill it on the ground". "Huh", sez me. "It's all open & I thought the hose is earthed". He ignored that one & went on about static electricity yada yada yada.

He didn't tell me while I was doing it & there are no signs re this. Use of Mobys, yes, but not filling JCs.

Anyone know if he was talking bollocks or the truth?

I know this is a cold thread, 4bee, but I knew a guy who burned his Rangie to the ground doing just that - tailgate down, jerry's in the back. It's because the nozzle IS earthed that you can get a spark from the unearthed can. I've always fill mine, plastic or petrol, on the ground. Static builds from the movement of the vehicle, same as generating lightning in a cloud.

I think steel spikes in the forecourt might be overkill. Perhaps if you just drive a tent peg through the bottom of the jerry every time, that would be enough?

[Vern]

Static builds up from 2 different substances or materials rubbing together, like petroleum running through a pipe, or clothing rubbing on other materials. So your jerry can that has been moving around in the back will have created a static charge that is why you remove it and put it on the ground to get it to earths potential, also every time the petroleum is moved (poured) static is generated.

[DEFENDERZOOK]

and you also earth it through your body when you pick it up......
and the nozzle touches the jerry as well as its filling to keep it earthed through the actual bowser.....



i have seen the big spikes with an earth at servos.....but i think its only on the lpg pumps.....

[Ace]

I wont repeat it but they do need to be on the ground and as Zook said its good practice to touch the car before you fill to earth the car. The biggest cause of petrol station fires is women because (when you could) they put the clip on so you dont need to hold the nozzle whilst filling and then go back to the car and sit in it the seat covers and the synthetic clothing they are wearing generates static then when they go back to take the nozzle out the static dishcarges and ignites the vapours. There is actually a video of exactly this happening at a servo in the US.

Mythbusters did test this sort of, they at first busted the myth that mobile phones can start a fire, they cant, but they then looked at what might do it that makes people think it was a phone and static was it.

The whole fear of jerry cans being filled on the ground due in part to the Rhino plastic ute liners many farm utes have, a big plastic surface like that generates a lot of static which is highly dangerous. I know of a few servos that wont let farmers fill up 44 gallon drums which are secured in the back of a ute with a plastic tub liner because of this. Matt