Out-of-round OEM 18in alloys?

[4X4V8]

This is one of those situations where I am wondering if I should just not worry about it. But vibrations in the car I've noticed on back-off around 60km/h and constant at 107km/h- 115km/h had me drop the car with 2 LR mechanics to see what's going on. It's bugging me. I like my RR to ride smoothly.

Propshafts and UJs are simple, I know, but involve witchcraft to me. I didn't want to be 1000km from home with a RS UJ or similar.

Anyway, 2nd mech agreed with the first -- I seem to have out-of-round Hurricane 18in wheels. I probably should have taken the 1st mech's word for it, but then I only asked him to to have a quick look more than fix it at any cost.

This time I saw for myself the wheels on the hoist as wheels spun. It's the strangest thing: the tyres, outer rims and hubs appeared to spin smoothly, but the inner rims (between the spokes) looked like they were different thicknesses as the wheel spun. I'm talking about the areas where, for example, in one location on the wheel, the valve sits. If you can imagine drawing a line from the outer lip of the rim though the valve to the inner lip of the rim (between the spokes) that's the thickness that varied between each spoke of the wheel. On a couple wheels, not by much, but one was really bad. Describing that gave me a headache. I really should have taken a video of it.

Has anyone heard of this? Did LR make a dodgy batch of Hurricanes? I asked Google and she couldn't help.

My next plan of attack was to try to measure these areas to see any difference. Hard to do because of the taper of the rim, so don't expect that will work. Next was to go to a wheel repairer and see what he reckons. More money down the drain. Last resort is to buy some kick-arse 22in black late-RR wheels avec spigot rings and bolts and pimp my ride. Okay maybe not that last bit.

[Scouse]

I have around 3 sets of Hurricanes & they've all been fine. In fact, I have never come across a balance issue with any LR alloy. 2 of my current Mondials have chunks out of the rims from gutter smashes & they're still vibration free.

They all come out of the same place so it seems very strange that you'd have an odd one or two.
Do you have RR (with the 'black' chrome finish) or D2 (regular wheel silver) wheels?

[4X4V8]

I have around 3 sets of Hurricanes & they've all been fine. In fact, I have never come across a balance issue with any LR alloy. 2 of my current Mondials have chunks out of the rims from gutter smashes & they're still vibration free.

That's why I haven't given up on them yet. It just seems odd. The problem as it appears can't be anything other than faulty manufacture. It's not a buckled rim (which itself seems unlikely as they're supposed to be strong).

But faulty manufacture? Really unusual. Maybe it's an an optical illusion?

As for the colour - original RR or D2 - they were in quite poor cond when I bought the car, hard to tell the colour - but given how unmessed with the car was (if a bit run-down) I suspect original.

The silver paint was quite chipped; bone colour undercoat (weird colour, and felt like plastic) showing in quite a few places. Something made me think they were re-painted before, and I resprayed them when I bought the car.

Scott I might take you up on borrowing some of your spare wheels to try if you're still willing for me to do that, when work calms down a bit in a couple weeks. That would at least be a definitive test on whether wheels are the culprit or not.

[old dirt bikes]

Hi 4X4V8, How long has the vehicle had the vibrations? The wheels didn't just get out of round. I think the part of the rim you are describing would be cast not machined so there could some variation. The only way to check for out of round is to remove the wheels and put them on a wheel balancer and turn by hand with a dial indicator on the part of the rim to be checked. Have you had the wheels balanced?
Regards,
Alan


This is one of those situations where I am wondering if I should just not worry about it. But vibrations in the car I've noticed on back-off around 60km/h and constant at 107km/h- 115km/h had me drop the car with 2 LR mechanics to see what's going on. It's bugging me. I like my RR to ride smoothly.

Propshafts and UJs are simple, I know, but involve witchcraft to me. I didn't want to be 1000km from home with a RS UJ or similar.

Anyway, 2nd mech agreed with the first -- I seem to have out-of-round Hurricane 18in wheels. I probably should have taken the 1st mech's word for it, but then I only asked him to to have a quick look more than fix it at any cost.

This time I saw for myself the wheels on the hoist as wheels spun. It's the strangest thing: the tyres, outer rims and hubs appeared to spin smoothly, but the inner rims (between the spokes) looked like they were different thicknesses as the wheel spun. I'm talking about the areas where, for example, in one location on the wheel, the valve sits. If you can imagine drawing a line from the outer lip of the rim though the valve to the inner lip of the rim (between the spokes) that's the thickness that varied between each spoke of the wheel. On a couple wheels, not by much, but one was really bad. Describing that gave me a headache. I really should have taken a video of it.

Has anyone heard of this? Did LR make a dodgy batch of Hurricanes? I asked Google and she couldn't help.

My next plan of attack was to try to measure these areas to see any difference. Hard to do because of the taper of the rim, so don't expect that will work. Next was to go to a wheel repairer and see what he reckons. More money down the drain. Last resort is to buy some kick-arse 22in black late-RR wheels avec spigot rings and bolts and pimp my ride. Okay maybe not that last bit.

[4X4V8]

Hi 4X4V8, How long has the vehicle had the vibrations? The wheels didn't just get out of round. I think the part of the rim you are describing would be cast not machined so there could some variation. The only way to check for out of round is to remove the wheels and put them on a wheel balancer and turn by hand with a dial indicator on the part of the rim to be checked. Have you had the wheels balanced?
Regards,
Alan
I've only had the vehicle since Feb, bought it on old worn tyres and wheels that needed a paint. So re-sprayed wheels (not thickly enough to cause the out-of-round problem, I'd hope :)) and had 5 new Pirellis fitted and balanced. That was at a tyre shop known for their high volume and good prices, maybe not so much for wheel-balancing excellence.
Because of COVID and that the P38 is not my main vehicle, it has only since done about 3 runs at the speeds that the vibration is really obvious (about 110km/h).
I've just remembered a tyre mob in Marrickville that were really good when I needed a set of polycast rims balanced. No-one else knew what to do, whereas these guys not only knew but did a great job. I think I'll take the P38 to them to have a look.
In fact it's probably the first thing I should have done. I'll report back...

[Scouse]

Scott I might take you up on borrowing some of your spare wheels to try if you're still willing for me to do that, when work calms down a bit in a couple weeks. That would at least be a definitive test on whether wheels are the culprit or not.Yes, whenever suits you is fine with me.

[Tombie]

If you haven't put them on a balancer then forget anything until you have.

Visual is a guide only. Spin them up properly and see what's going on.

Tyre wear and shocks can have a big impact on suspension oscillations..

[prelude]

this will take some extra effort but check the balance indeed. Also, if the problem persists check the rims without the tyres on a machine to see how much, if any, they are out. The balancing machine should be able to just measure the rim without a tyre on it. If they are off then maybe, jsut maybe that could be a problem.

Usually defects in wheels (if there are any) need to go beyond a certain threshold for one to pick up vibrations. Also, try to move the wheels with the most counterweight on them to the rear. Rule of thumb is: vibrations in the steeringwheel below 100kph = front wheel, above 100kph = rear wheels.

Cheers,
-P

[4X4V8]

this will take some extra effort but check the balance indeed. Also, if the problem persists check the rims without the tyres on a machine to see how much, if any, they are out. The balancing machine should be able to just measure the rim without a tyre on it. If they are off then maybe, jsut maybe that could be a problem.

Usually defects in wheels (if there are any) need to go beyond a certain threshold for one to pick up vibrations. Also, try to move the wheels with the most counterweight on them to the rear. Rule of thumb is: vibrations in the steeringwheel below 100kph = front wheel, above 100kph = rear wheels.

Cheers,
-P
I took it to a tyre shop this morning. The wheels were out of balance. I assumed that the tyre shop that I bought new tyres from in February knew how to balance wheels. Never assume...

[Tombie]

I took it to a tyre shop this morning. The wheels were out of balance. I assumed that the tyre shop that I bought new tyres from in February knew how to balance wheels. Never assume...

Could have spat weights... happens.
Or your shocks may be worn and the wheels are going out of balance.

[4X4V8]

Could have spat weights... happens.
Or your shocks may be worn and the wheels are going out of balance.

It's possible some weights came off, but all four wheels I got them to balance today were 'way out'. Maybe I would have heard the weights going south?

I've been thinking about shocks. I noticed when replacing a rear EAS height sensor a few weeks ago that the shock lower tube (I think) had paint worn off it to the metal -- and that I should investigate.

I was also chatting to a bloke about suspension tech, such as Citroen hydro-pneumatic, LR's EAS etc and it got me thinking about my RR's ride quality. I just assumed it felt a bit harsh because it's been a while since I have had a live-axles vehicle. Beginning to think it might need new shocks, because when I think about it, the air suspension I remember from years ago was pretty lush (in a live-axles kind of way). Yet another thing to add to a growing list of jobs on this car.

Meanwhile scraped its perfect LH mirror housing when squeezing the RR back in the garage. Hate that.

[4X4V8]

It's possible some weights came off, but all four wheels I got them to balance today were 'way out'. Maybe I would have heard the weights going south?

I've been thinking about shocks. I noticed when replacing a rear EAS height sensor a few weeks ago that the shock lower tube (I think) had paint worn off it to the metal -- and that I should investigate.

I was also chatting to a bloke about suspension tech, such as Citroen hydro-pneumatic, LR's EAS etc and it got me thinking about my RR's ride quality. I just assumed it felt a bit harsh because it's been a while since I have had a live-axles vehicle. Beginning to think it might need new shocks, because when I think about it, the air suspension I remember from years ago was pretty lush (in a live-axles kind of way). Yet another thing to add to a growing list of jobs on this car.

Meanwhile scraped its perfect LH mirror housing when squeezing the RR back in the garage. Hate that.

Took the P38 for a long highway drive and most of the vibrations have gone. It was wheel balance, not out of round wheels. I think.
There are still some vibrations that seem to phase in and out at around 110-115km/h. It feels obvious beause at around 100km/h or so the car drives completely smoothly.
It is frustrating because there is nothing obviously wrong now. I will try another set of wheels to discount that being the problem.
My gut feeling is that it is a driveline problem, such as UJs. The fact that there is a vibration on the overrun at 60km/h also points towards something other than wheels.

[PeterH]

You could try a different set of rims to rule that out as a first step.
I'd be suprised if it was the rims, unless they have been in an accident or something like that.
I'll assume you have recently greased the driveline.
I once had a drive shaft slightly out of balance that caused exactly what you are describing.
I took it to a drive shaft specialist and they balanced the shaft which improved things out of sight.

Another possibility might be the viscous coupling.
Mine had a vibration happening especially at highway speeds, that i just could not seem to find.
I had the wheels balanced, new UJ's, wheel alignment, new shocks, which all improved the situation, but the vibration was still present.
I could see the passenger seat vibrating on the highway, which annoyed me no end.
I ended up getting a new viscous coupling from Ashcroft transmissions in the UK, changed that over and the vibration was gone.
Would be worth investigating if you haven't already.
I know these things casn be annoying, but there will be a way to get it sorted.
Hope that is of some help.

[Tombie]

Took the P38 for a long highway drive and most of the vibrations have gone. It was wheel balance, not out of round wheels. I think.
There are still some vibrations that seem to phase in and out at around 110-115km/h. It feels obvious beause at around 100km/h or so the car drives completely smoothly.
It is frustrating because there is nothing obviously wrong now. I will try another set of wheels to discount that being the problem.
My gut feeling is that it is a driveline problem, such as UJs. The fact that there is a vibration on the overrun at 60km/h also points towards something other than wheels.

Depending on how long you ran out of balance - the tyres may have some fun tread harmonics.

[DiscoMick]

Did you get a wheel alignment?
Could one tyre be unevenly worn? Rotating them might make a difference.

[4X4V8]

You could try a different set of rims to rule that out as a first step.
I'd be suprised if it was the rims, unless they have been in an accident or something like that.
I'll assume you have recently greased the driveline.
I once had a drive shaft slightly out of balance that caused exactly what you are describing.
I took it to a drive shaft specialist and they balanced the shaft which improved things out of sight.

Another possibility might be the viscous coupling.
Mine had a vibration happening especially at highway speeds, that i just could not seem to find.
I had the wheels balanced, new UJ's, wheel alignment, new shocks, which all improved the situation, but the vibration was still present.
I could see the passenger seat vibrating on the highway, which annoyed me no end.
I ended up getting a new viscous coupling from Ashcroft transmissions in the UK, changed that over and the vibration was gone.
Would be worth investigating if you haven't already.
I know these things casn be annoying, but there will be a way to get it sorted.
Hope that is of some help.

Thanks mate, that gives me a few ideas. Yes the driveline has all been greased recently.

I had hoped that taking it to a LR specialist would short-circuit any 'parts replacement therapy', as they would have experience of P38 problems like this and quickly get to an accurate diagnosis. I haven't had much luck with two of them. That's actually not a criticism of them; they seem to be so flat-chat at the moment that fiddling around with my car must seem like it's all too hard. And potentially expensive (for me) if they were to spend hours on it trying to diagnose the problem. It seems to be a common theme at the moment; mechanics generally appear to be busier than they have ever been.

So I plan to take the slow-burn approach, as that's all I can do with the time and money I have to spend anyway. It isn't a big problem now, but I do want to sort it out before taking the RR on any big trips, in case it develops into something more serious.

[PeterH]

When it's a bit of a mystery, mechanics sometimes end up replacing parts just to rule those parts out.
The way I looked at mine was I didn't know the history of things like the UJ's, so replacing them was not a very big expense, I could rule those out as culprits and I know they would be good for years to come.
If you are ok on the tools, the parts themselves are usually not that expensive.
I had one of my front tyres developing a 'scalloped' wear pattern, even though the shocks seemed fine from what I could tell, sure enough, replacing the shocks solved that problem.

At least you are starting from a base point of knowing the parts you replace are ok.
Even the steering damper could cause weird vibrations if it is on the way out.

I always start with the easy stuff and go from there.
Just to clarify, have you had a wheel alignment done?
This would be a good frst place to start, they will inspect the bushes when they do that, so they might uncover anything that needs attention.

If that doesn't solve the problem, next I would be looking at shocks and steering damper to rule those out.
Next I would replace the UJ's.
That's just me though!

[4X4V8]

Just to clarify, have you had a wheel alignment done?
This would be a good frst place to start, they will inspect the bushes when they do that, so they might uncover anything that needs attention.

If that doesn't solve the problem, next I would be looking at shocks and steering damper to rule those out.
Next I would replace the UJ's.
That's just me though!

I agree, it doesn't hurt to spend money if it means one less thing to worry about in the future. I don't mind spending the $ so long as I'm not throwing it away.

I just don't want to have a 'noisy' t'fer case rebuilt at great expense when it's ends up as a diff at fault, for example. Speaking hypothetically of course, I'd never be as stupid as to fall for that one. Not more than once, anyway.[bigwhistle]

Speaking of diffs (no, I haven't had anything re-built on this particular vehicle) there is what sounds like diff whine from 60km/h. One LR specialist thought it was actually a noisy t'fer case, although he said it wasn't too serious. So there might be something there to consider, that could be causing vibration. I don't know. I'm not game to jump down that rabbit hole yet.

I had a wheel alignment done in Feb at the same place I bought the tyres - ie the same mob who stuffed up the wheel balancing.

So that's not a bad idea to get another wheel alignment done - obviously not at the same place as last time.

The original steering damper began to leak in April, so I replaced that with a new one. I can't remember which brand now, don't think it was OEM but I researched it and got the best aftermarket quality 'standard' OEM type I could.

UJs are relatively cheap and seemingly easy to replace. But I have an irrational fear of UJs - the only time I ever have replaced them was on an XJ Cherokee. I remember that they kept falling apart as I tried to fit them to the vehicle. Caps, roller bearings and grease going everywhere. Maybe I just need more patience this time :).

Shocks appear original and seem to be doing their job. Even more so once I let out the excessive air out of the tyres after the latest wheel balancing. I still don't get why tyre fitters think 40psi is always a much better number than if the tyre placard says something else....Anyway, I was thinking of replacing the air springs next year as part of a suspension refresh and might replace the shocks as well.

Anyway, the RR still goes well; it's a good, original Vogue with good bones and most things work. I even made progress the other day, with a brake bleed I've been meaning to do for 6 months. Brake feel is much better now.

[DiscoMick]

Good idea to also have the steering and other bushes checked.
Rotating tyres front to opposite back is also a simple thing to try.
What have you got to lose?