2.7L Oil Pump Failures

[gavinwibrow]

I must have been asleep when 2.7L Oil Pump failures have been posted. Fully aware of the D2 oil pump bolt issue.

Is this potentially applicable across the range of D3 and D4, or is it something that was actually nipped in the bud at some stage?

[loanrangie]

All D3 are susceptible but they fixed the issue by the D4 release.

[PerthDisco]

I must have been asleep when 2.7L Oil Pump failures have been posted. Fully aware of the D2 oil pump bolt issue.

Is this potentially applicable across the range of D3 and D4, or is it something that was actually nipped in the bud at some stage?

Pre MY09 is no good - change oil pump housing at belt change
MY09 onward is ok
Tighten tensioner to specific torques only

[DiscoDB]

Pretty sure that would be the pulley mount failure on the early 2.7’s when doing a timing belt change and not upgrading the oil pump casing to the later version.

[101RRS]

The main failure years are 07/08MY. Prior to that they are less prone to failure but they can still fail. 07/08 have the weak cam belt pulley housing at the top of oil pump and post 08MY have fixed the issue. If you now order the pre 07My part number and the 07/08 part number from Land Rover you will get the new oil pump.

Of interest there are some but very few failures prior to the first cam belt service - most failures (but not all) fail soon after changing the cam belt so may indicate there is some thing related to changing the belt = possible development of a crack or over tensioning the cam belt guide - but whatever it is weak and then newer one is beefed up.

If you go to a LR dealer or Indy they will charge you about $400 for the new oil pump but if you go to Ford and get the exact same Territory part it is about $170 - noting some of the associated seals etc actually come in LR bags.

Garry

[loanrangie]

Pretty sure that would be the pulley mount failure on the early 2.7’s when doing a timing belt change and not upgrading the oil pump casing to the later version.

As the mount is on the pump its one and the same.

[woko]

Here is a photo of the differencehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201105/d1b15267137ade50dd780b58e1ad5be0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201105/0c0a332beccd2e9301c0884aa1999bf1.jpg

[DiscoDB]

Ends up being a good preventative maintenance task when ever doing a timing belt change even if you have the updated oil pump fitted.

[PerthDisco]

Ends up being a good preventative maintenance task when ever doing a timing belt change even if you have the updated oil pump fitted.

From what angle as the tensioner should not snap off again? New seal or oil pressure are you thinking?

Mine was replaced along with water pump but next time coming up I’m thinking water pump only.

[DiscoDB]

Probably just paranoid. But given the effort involved in doing the job, the real question then is will the pump be good for 320,000km or 14 years if you don’t do it when doing the belts.

Plus I don’t think the TDV6 would give us much warning of an oil pump issue without there being other consequences.

[101RRS]

But given the effort involved in doing the job, the real question then is will the pump be good for 320,000km or 14 years if you don’t do it when doing the belts.

Its not the actual oil pump that has the issue - it is the changing of the cam belt pulley that causes the issue.

[DiscoDB]

Yes - understand fully the original issue.

The question then is once you have upgraded the oil pump, should you still change every 160,000kms as a preventative measure or wait for it to fail.

With the risk of spun bearings and a snapped crank (different issues again) - I am inclined to replace the oil pump every 160,000kms when doing the timing belt any way as the only extra cost is a new oil pump.

The oil pump will wear out and we don’t have an oil pressure gauge to know if it is deteriorating.

[Tombie]

I must have been asleep when 2.7L Oil Pump failures have been posted. Fully aware of the D2 oil pump bolt issue.

Is this potentially applicable across the range of D3 and D4, or is it something that was actually nipped in the bud at some stage?

Gavin, you’ll give yourself and ulcer [emoji3]

D4s are sorted - I still replaced mine when the belts were done. It’s pretty cheap. Remember I do my belts at 100k intervals.

[DiscoDB]

Gavin, you’ll give yourself and ulcer [emoji3]

D4s are sorted - I still replaced mine when the belts were done. It’s pretty cheap. Remember I do my belts at 100k intervals.

I have read others on the UK forum also do belts and the oil pump at 100,000kms as well.

[loanrangie]

Its not the actual oil pump that has the issue - it is the changing of the cam belt pulley that causes the issue.No it's the tensioner mount on the pump casting that's the issue, crank pulley only gets removed during the pump replacement not the pulleys on the cams.

[101RRS]

No it's the tensioner mount on the pump casting that's the issue, crank pulley only gets removed during the pump replacement not the pulleys on the cams.

I thought that is what I basically said - I didn't say anything about the crank pulley but was talking about the cam belt pulleys.

For DiscoDB - if you have concerns about your oil pump then by all means change it with the cam belts but otherwise there is no need too. Likewise there is no reason to replace cam belts at 100,000km rather then 160,000km unless you think there is an issue.

[DiscoDB]

Cheers Garry - I am all good. [emoji106]

I was just responding to PerthDisco why I think changing the oil pump at 160,000kms when doing the belts is a good idea regardless if you have an upgraded oil pump.

I would only do the timing belt at a lower mileage if it was over 7-8 years old or operating under arduous conditions. Makes total sense for Tombie to do at 100,000kms. In my own case this was at around 140,000kms but I did go well past the 7 year recommendation - however that is another topic.

[PerthDisco]

Cheers Garry - I am all good. [emoji106]

I was just responding to PerthDisco why I think changing the oil pump at 160,000kms when doing the belts is a good idea regardless if you have an upgraded oil pump.

I would only do the timing belt at a lower mileage if it was over 7-8 years old or operating under arduous conditions. Makes total sense for Tombie to do at 100,000kms. In my own case this was at around 140,000kms but I did go well past the 7 year recommendation - however that is another topic.

Yes I can’t understand how the arduous schedule affects the belt life in same logical way it affects oil change intervals (and not to suggest it’s wrong). Agree you don’t want to go past 7 years regardless which for most drivers will be 100-120,000km in any case. More often than not the belts come off looking new and I’ve never heard of one breaking in the many interesting ways the engine can die. I’ve heard of 13 year old TDV6s on original belt so they have a huge engineering safety margin I imagine.

[DiscoDB]

I did my timing belt at 10years of age and no concerns were found with it. But if operating in high temp conditions (it gets very hot in Whyalla) then the rubber would break down quicker.

Having said that - I absolutely would not recommend to anyone to try and get 10 years as the risk is too high. The last 2 years of this the D3 did very low kms and so I was prepared to take the risk.

I am also planning to replace the harmonic balancer as the rubber would be starting to breakdown after what is now 13 years. In hindsight I believe this should also be done at the same time as the timing belt.

[Tombie]

Yes I can’t understand how the arduous schedule affects the belt life in same logical way it affects oil change intervals (and not to suggest it’s wrong). Agree you don’t want to go past 7 years regardless which for most drivers will be 100-120,000km in any case. More often than not the belts come off looking new and I’ve never heard of one breaking in the many interesting ways the engine can die. I’ve heard of 13 year old TDV6s on original belt so they have a huge engineering safety margin I imagine.

Heat soak, dust, grit. Stop / start. Cold running.
All put big stress on Rubber components and bearings.

As you rightly commented, age on rubber components is also a factor.

I would never say there’s a safety margin - like tyres - 5 years and they should be nearly done. Plenty of people making the decision to run tyres a lot longer and some pay the price.

[scarry]

I remember the local mechanic looking at the timing belt on the sons GF's Astra,i think it was.

His comment was if the writing on it hasn't disappeared,it won't need changing.[bighmmm]

No,i said, just change the bloody thing,it looks to me as old as the car, which was about 15yrs old.

[PeterOZ]

Pre MY09 is no good - change oil pump housing at belt change
MY09 onward is ok
Tighten tensioner to specific torques only


that is what killed my engine, it now has a transplanted Territory 2.7 so would hope it has the upgraded housing.

[loanrangie]

Having just done my belts @195k they looked good with no visible sign of age degradation, pity the oil pump didn't fair so well. Tensioner broke off 2 months ago but luckily I was stationary in my drive when it went, 1 slightly bent camshaft and a couple of broken cam cap bolts was the only damage. Tore it down for a full inspection examining each component.
Gave the intakes a thorough clean at the same time.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/9bd64aae72b6974263ba252247422260.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/da681098adc3f1454d909e4be7efa85a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/e12106889608317ae222a3d18c4acfb3.jpg

[DiscoDB]

You were extremely lucky there loanrangie.

If the belt was in good condition it would suggest the timing belt had been changed at some point but not the oil pump.

If the belt was original then that is amazing.

Just shows, if you don’t know if the oil pump has been upgraded, get it done ASAP.

[PerthDisco]

that is what killed my engine, it now has a transplanted Territory 2.7 so would hope it has the upgraded housing.

Yea they are all post 09 engines I believe.

[PerthDisco]

Having just done my belts @195k they looked good with no visible sign of age degradation, pity the oil pump didn't fair so well. Tensioner broke off 2 months ago but luckily I was stationary in my drive when it went, 1 slightly bent camshaft and a couple of broken cam cap bolts was the only damage. Tore it down for a full inspection examining each component.
Gave the intakes a thorough clean at the same time.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/9bd64aae72b6974263ba252247422260.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/da681098adc3f1454d909e4be7efa85a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201108/e12106889608317ae222a3d18c4acfb3.jpg

So this was a pre 09 car on its second or first belt? The tensioner’s normal fail mode pre 09 was after a belt change. I think the tensioner bolt torque is 26NM so very likely it was over cranked on many occasions stressing the old oil pump housing casting where it bolts into. The new housing has more metal and gusseting in the casting around the tensioner bolt hole.

Obviously a new oil pump was part of your rebuild?

Definitely a miraculous escape.

[loanrangie]

So this was a pre 09 car on its second or first belt? The tensioner’s normal fail mode pre 09 was after a belt change. I think the tensioner bolt torque is 26NM so very likely it was over cranked on many occasions stressing the old oil pump housing casting where it bolts into. The new housing has more metal and gusseting in the casting around the tensioner bolt hole.

Obviously a new oil pump was part of your rebuild?

Definitely a miraculous escape.

Yes 07 build MY08, i was under the impression the belts hadn't been changed by my talks with the 1 previous owner but reading the date markings on the belt it seems the belt was dated after my car was built but same year.
Yes i had the new pump already so i mocked it all up with the old belt so i could determine how far out the timing was and if it would rotate correctly, the cam i replaced was the LH exhaust which was an effort in itself because of the rear pulley and belt cover.
i was very lucky and got away with just $250 worth of parts not inc the pump and timing kit which was being replaced anyway.
Engine is running great which was a huge relief as i had envisaged fitting a territory motor.

[loanrangie]

I will add that i understand why workshops would lift the body to work on these,i think i damaged some muscles while lying over the motor and trying to get my hands down the back to reach some of the fuel belt cover bolts. absolutely no room to more so i had to come up with some novel methods to get the job done.
Lucky it happened during lock down since i was working from home and i had the time to strip and inspect and plan my attack.

[scarry]

I will add that i understand why workshops would lift the body to work on these,i think i damaged some muscles while lying over the motor and trying to get my hands down the back to reach some of the fuel belt cover bolts. absolutely no room to more so i had to come up with some novel methods to get the job done.
Lucky it happened during lock down since i was working from home and i had the time to strip and inspect and plan my attack.

And they all say the 3.0L is quite a bit more difficult to do.[bigsad]

[loanrangie]

And they all say the 3.0L is quite a bit more difficult to do.[bigsad]

Yeah don't think i would be trying to fit the rear belt with body on a 3.0 , front belt is easy as.

[Peter F]

Yea they are all post 09 engines I believe.
My MY08 had the updated pump from the factree. Had belts done at 100k/6 yrs old.

[PerthDisco]

My MY08 had the updated pump from the factree. Had belts done at 100k/6 yrs old.

Interesting because my MY08 did not. Mine is Sep 07 build though.

[loanrangie]

My MY08 had the updated pump from the factree. Had belts done at 100k/6 yrs old.Nope, I can atest to that.

[Tombie]

My MY11 D4 had the update.

When I did the belts I still replaced it with a new unit.

[DazzaTD5]

IMHO...

*I'd say 100% of the oil pump housing failures JUST after a timing belt change is due to a uneducated monkey using a 1/2 drive torque wrench (if at all) when doing up the tensioner bolt to that 25NM.
*I dont see the pump failure as a vehicle or manufacturing fault.
*As far as I am aware I've not had one fail after doing a timing belt (before it was well known there was an updated pump).
*I have also not heard of the oil pump failing, as in not pumping oil etc, I see no reason to change this out.


A professional should be using something like this, 3/8 drive, digital:

[loanrangie]

I bought a 1/4" 5-25nm torque wrench just for this job, wasn't taking any chances.
The casting is very thin around the mounting boss so wouldn't take much to weaken it.

[RANDLOVER]

IMHO...

*I'd say 100% of the oil pump housing failures JUST after a timing belt change is due to a uneducated monkey using a 1/2 drive torque wrench (if at all) when doing up the tensioner bolt to that 25NM.
*I dont see the pump failure as a vehicle or manufacturing fault.
*As far as I am aware I've not had one fail after doing a timing belt (before it was well known there was an updated pump).
*I have also not heard of the oil pump failing, as in not pumping oil etc, I see no reason to change this out.


A professional should be using something like this, 3/8 drive, digital:

I agree regarding the torqueing, as mine still had the original pump with approx 270 000km's on it, but I had it changed to the reinforced one after seeing all the problems people have had, also did belt, tensioners, water pump and water manifold simultaneously, at the same time, together. I got an OEM one as a Ford Territory one wasn't available, a bargain at $250 if Ford has stock, also note the pump doesn't come with the shaft seal nor the crankshaft bolt. In the UK it seems you can get the same pump from Citroen. Still takes 5-6 secs on the 1st start of the day for the oil pressure light to stop flickering, supposedly an original LR pump will make oil pressure in a couple of seconds.

[PeterOZ]

Interesting because my MY08 did not. Mine is Sep 07 build though.

mine was a bit earlier, I took delivery August 2007.

[PeterOZ]

LR time has an interesting video where he analyses the difference in oil pressure with old and new pump and reasons why. Wear and clearance issues inside the pump I believe.
He recommended the FAI version.

I'll be getting all belts done later this year and will get oil, water pumps done plus the plastic water thingy that fails.

[PerthDisco]

LR time has an interesting video where he analyses the difference in oil pressure with old and new pump and reasons why. Wear and clearance issues inside the pump I believe.
He recommended the FAI version.

I'll be getting all belts done later this year and will get oil, water pumps done plus the plastic water thingy that fails.

I asked him on that and he went FAI as cheaper. He doesn’t have easy access to Ford Territory latest edition pumps like us. You still need to buy the seal and crank bolt.

[DiscoDB]

I asked him on that and he went FAI as cheaper. He doesn’t have easy access to Ford Territory latest edition pumps like us. You still need to buy the seal and crank bolt.

Christian also could get the genuine FoMoCo pump from Advanced Factors for GBP114 plus delivery.

Probably cheaper and no doubt in my mind that it would be better quality than the FAI oil pump based on the testing he did.

[PerthDisco]

He might of had it hanging around after Fabian’s build.

Wouldn’t be many manual transmissions n Australia but from what I read you can crack off the crank bolt with the auto flywheel lock pin.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220303/2b5d83a291793dacb28707337c7128bb.jpg

[DiscoDB]

So are you a Patreon - or does he just reply to you?

Tell him he needs to post some coffee making video’s like how to make a Cafe mit Schlag to have on a cold winters day when working on the LR, or perhaps a few random cat videos it he wants to make money on YouTube.

Possibly a few “oh no oh no oh no no no no no” videos on TikTok to get the truck drivers or Toyota drivers on board.

He could even set up calls from Fabian to use Capone’s “oh no” as a ringtone - that would get the view numbers up into the millions.

(Sorry - off topic - oh no…..)

[PerthDisco]

So are you a Patreon - or does he just reply to you?

Tell him he needs to post some coffee making video’s like how to make a Cafe mit Schlag to have on a cold winters day when working on the LR, or perhaps a few random cat videos it he wants to make money on YouTube.

Possibly a few “oh no oh no oh no no no no no” videos on TikTok to get the truck drivers or Toyota drivers on board.

He could even set up calls from Fabian to use Capone’s “oh no” as a ringtone - that would get the view numbers up into the millions.

(Sorry - off topic - oh no…..)

They answer all questions on YouTube comments.

[DiscoDB]

They answer all questions on YouTube comments.

Only if of a general nature. I have posted more technical questions which have gone unanswered.

They want viewers to sign up as Patreon’s - for AUD13.20 per month Christian will then reply to technical questions by email [emoji851] (or Vera will provide her opinion for AUD5.50 per month [emoji33]).

Given how many ads come up, it is a pity they make so little from the YouTube videos (he loses money on every video he posts). They need a lot more subscribers and viewers on YouTube before YouTube start making more decent payments to them.

Looking forward to the update on Fabian’s engine since the rebuild.

[DiscoDB]

Speaking of pump failures and YouTubers - I see Outback Discovery has gone silent in recent times.

Hope he managed to get the D3 back on the road.

[BradC]

Given how many ads come up, it is a pity they make so little from the YouTube videos (he loses money on every video he posts). They need a lot more subscribers and viewers on YouTube before YouTube start making more decent payments to them.

And the reason they make so little is the reason Google is one of the most "valuable" companies on the globe.

[PerthDisco]

Speaking of pump failures and YouTubers - I see Outback Discovery has gone silent in recent times.

Hope he managed to get the D3 back on the road.

Been too hot last month ha ha opposite of LR Time

[PeterOZ]

noted on the FAI vis Ford oil pump, did not know the ford was better pump - whodathunk it! [biggrin]

I won't be doing the belts or pump myself, will get my landie indie up here in Hervey Bay area to do that, he is 10 mins up the road, drops me back home or lends me his D3 to buzz about in.

[DiscoDB]

noted on the FAI vis Ford oil pump, did not know the ford was better pump - whodathunk it! [biggrin]

I won't be doing the belts or pump myself, will get my landie indie up here in Hervey Bay area to do that, he is 10 mins up the road, drops me back home or lends me his D3 to buzz about in.

Actually we don’t really know if the Ford or FAI pump is better. LR Time has all the gear to do a comparison test but never compared a new Ford pump against a new FAI pump.

What concerned me was some of Christian’s tests showed the FAI pump was not much better than Vera’s original worn pump.

I do believe the Ford pump is cheaper than the FAI pump, as long as you don’t buy it in a LR box.

One thing not know is who is the actual manufacturer of the Ford oil pump - is it Ford themselves or a supplier to Ford? We do know Ford have made many updates to the pump over the years.

[loanrangie]

Speaking of pump failures and YouTubers - I see Outback Discovery has gone silent in recent times.

Hope he managed to get the D3 back on the road.

He posted a video of it running after the engine swap on FB.

[shack]

I Still takes 5-6 secs on the 1st start of the day for the oil pressure light to stop flickering, supposedly an original LR pump will make oil pressure in a couple of seconds.

This is interesting, ours has done a bit over 200k km, I've recently noticed that ours takes about 5 or 6 seconds to get pressure up after it has been parked a couple of days.

If its only over night, it's much quicker, obviously something is draining back somewhere.

What sort of times are others seeing? I'm a bit annoyed that I didn't take note of what it has always done.

[incisor]

This is interesting, ours has done a bit over 200k km, I've recently noticed that ours takes about 5 or 6 seconds to get pressure up after it has been parked a couple of days.

If its only over night, it's much quicker, obviously something is draining back somewhere.

What sort of times are others seeing? I'm a bit annoyed that I didn't take note of what it has always done.

what brand filter do you use?

[shack]

Mahle I think, I'll check tomorrow.

[loanrangie]

18 months ago I fitted a fomoco pump after mine failed, I never noticed any delay in pressure build up before it failed at 195k and I'd say it's near on instant now.

[shack]

what brand filter do you use?Yep it's Mahle

[PerthDisco]

Mine takes 2-3 seconds until tappet noise stops and oil light turns off. Has always done this to my memory. Is already on a replacement oil cooler and its 2nd oil pump getting the updated part in 2014. In hindsight that was a double bonus from an oil pressure point of view. I will change it again shortly with timing belts next change.

[Airmech953]

My 2005 L319 takes 3 to 4 seconds for the oil light to go out after the car has been sitting for a couple of days. this is after I fitted a new oil pump (latest spec) a few weeks ago.

[DiscoDB]

It is one of those annoying things with the 2.7Tdv6.

If used daily the light goes off in a few seconds, but as soon as you park it up for an extended time most of the oil drains off and it can take 5-6 seconds to get to the minimum oil pressure again. Same as when doing an oil change.

The updated oil pump should reduce this time, plus also depending on how tight the manufacturing tolerances with the oil pump are can also influence the pump drain down time. This is why I believe the FoMoCo pump is also better than the FAI pump.

Plus you have to make sure the oil filter drain plug spigot fits in snuggly. Have seen variations of up to 1mm in overall diameter with the oil ring on the filter drain plug from different suppliers which would also make some more prone to draining off oil quicker. I suspect some suppliers think this is just a locating plug and not a drain plug that needs to seal tight.

But in general the simplest solution is the D3 just needs to be exercised daily!

[PerthDisco]

It is one of those annoying things with the 2.7Tdv6.

If used daily the light goes off in a few seconds, but as soon as you park it up for an extended time most of the oil drains off and it can take 5-6 seconds to get to the minimum oil pressure again. Same as when doing an oil change.

The updated oil pump should reduce this time, plus also depending on how tight the manufacturing tolerances with the oil pump are can also influence the pump drain down time. This is why I believe the FoMoCo pump is also better than the FAI pump.

Plus you have to make sure the oil filter drain plug spigot fits in snuggly. Have seen variations of up to 1mm in overall diameter with the oil ring on the filter drain plug from different suppliers which would also make some more prone to draining off oil quicker. I suspect some suppliers think this is just a locating plug and not a drain plug that needs to seal tight.

But in general the simplest solution is the D3 just needs to be exercised daily!

I’ve just done some work on a Subaru EJ25 engine with leaking oil pump seal. These mount on the front of the block and are turned by the crank in exactly the same way as the TDV6. I learnt there is a global glitch whereby the screws in the flat cover plate at back of the pump back out causing a drop in oil pressure while running. It’s highly recommended to check and loctite when pump is removed. Sure enough a few on mine were very loose but plate was ok.

There are so many factors known and unknown in these bloody things you ultimately need a bit of luck on your side.

Something about if it flys floats or drives it will give you problems or variations thereof.

[jonesy63]

It is one of those annoying things with the 2.7Tdv6.

If used daily the light goes off in a few seconds, but as soon as you park it up for an extended time most of the oil drains off and it can take 5-6 seconds to get to the minimum oil pressure again. Same as when doing an oil change.

My D4 2.7 (which is used daily) had the oil pump replaced as a precaution at about 190,000km - due to slow pressure buildup at start. I had my mechanic replace the water pump as well - while he was replacing the radiator (due to a pin hole leak).

After he took out the old oil pump - he said there were loose bolts inside the pump.

With new pump - pressure light goes out almost immediately at start. I now have about 30,000km on this pump and so far, so good.

Cheers,
Rob

[PerthDisco]

So just as I went to order and AF has run out of Victor Reinz crankshaft oil seals with the tool to get it on the crankshaft. Have ordered genuine (Corteco). Does anyone in WA have the little plastic sleeve left over from a VR? Trying to minimise risk of damaging the seal.

Or is their an easy hack I just can’t think of?

[DazzaTD5]

You can grab mine.

[DazzaTD5]

So just as I went to order and AF has run out of Victor Reinz crankshaft oil seals with the tool to get it on the crankshaft. Have ordered genuine (Corteco). Does anyone in WA have the little plastic sleeve left over from a VR? Trying to minimise risk of damaging the seal.

Or is their an easy hack I just can’t think of?

What I just said above [tonguewink]

[PerthDisco]

A week later and no leaks I’m happy to report mission accomplished and oil light does go out appreciably faster. This is third oil pump and second belt change at 266k kms.

Old belt was a ‘14 edition and with no perceptible deterioration. Tensioner was exactly in correct spot.

Even getting the new crank seal over the VR tool was a challenge. There’s no give in those seals. Got that done day 1 so it was able to sit for over 12 hours until eventually start up.

I followed LR Time’s method to prime the dry oil pump from the filter housing turning the engine backwards and it gulped it down. That’s almost an hour in itself.

Not a quick job but rewarding to clean everything out. Brake cleaner and an air nozzle works wonders.

Note in first and second pics the starter motor lower left I could slide forward into this position with main power cable pulled out the way. Was quicker than working out how to remove it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220916/39704c363ec075a1666da93d12e2f373.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220916/6b107de18ff25f3052c0c74c5f184325.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220916/45a4b60212af5e4da8da02ac94d3c0f7.jpg

Thanks for lots of forum support.