The batteries of the future, weightless, and invisible.

[bob10]

ELON MUSK MADE a lot of promises during Tesla’s Battery Day (https://www.wired.com/story/where-was-the-battery-at-teslas-battery-day/) last September. Soon, he said, the company would have a car that runs on batteries with pure silicon anodes (https://www.wired.com/story/welcome-to-the-era-of-supercharged-lithium-silicon-batteries/) to boost their performance and reduced cobalt in the cathodes (https://www.wired.com/story/this-cobalt-free-battery-is-good-for-the-planet-and-it-actually-works/) to lower their price. Its battery pack will be integrated into the chassis so that it provides mechanical support in addition to energy, a design that Musk claimed will reduce the car’s weight by 10 percent and improve its mileage by even more. He hailed Tesla’s structural battery as a “revolution” in engineering—but for some battery researchers, Musk’s future looked a lot like the past.



The Batteries of the Future Are Weightless and Invisible | WIRED (https://www.wired.com/story/the-batteries-of-the-future-are-weightless-and-invisible/?bxid=5cc9e26e3f92a477a0ea0693&cndid=52475003&esrc=subscribe-page&mbid=mbid%3DCRMWIR012019%0A%0A&source=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ&utm_brand=wired&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_content=Final&utm_mailing=WIR_Daily_110720&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nl&utm_term=list1_p1)

[John_D4]

One thing that I either didn’t read is what is the expected life span of the structural battery? If there is one, and I assume there is, how do you replace a structural battery?

[AK83]

..... If there is one, and I assume there is, how do you replace a structural battery?

Yeah, total BS I reckon.
But in this era of engineered throw-away-and-buy-a-new-one mentality ... this is how you replace a structural battery!

how else are they going to make money?

Short term thinking folks will think to themselves ... yeah .. fantastic more range .. blah blah .. then it comes to resale time, and they can't even get a dollar for their $100K vehicle (say) 5 years later .. demand for new models will collapse.

[DiscoMick]

ELON MUSK MADE a lot of promises during Tesla’s Battery Day (https://www.wired.com/story/where-was-the-battery-at-teslas-battery-day/) last September. Soon, he said, the company would have a car that runs on batteries with pure silicon anodes (https://www.wired.com/story/welcome-to-the-era-of-supercharged-lithium-silicon-batteries/) to boost their performance and reduced cobalt in the cathodes (https://www.wired.com/story/this-cobalt-free-battery-is-good-for-the-planet-and-it-actually-works/) to lower their price. Its battery pack will be integrated into the chassis so that it provides mechanical support in addition to energy, a design that Musk claimed will reduce the car’s weight by 10 percent and improve its mileage by even more. He hailed Tesla’s structural battery as a “revolution” in engineering—but for some battery researchers, Musk’s future looked a lot like the past.



The Batteries of the Future Are Weightless and Invisible | WIRED (https://www.wired.com/story/the-batteries-of-the-future-are-weightless-and-invisible/?bxid=5cc9e26e3f92a477a0ea0693&cndid=52475003&esrc=subscribe-page&mbid=mbid%3DCRMWIR012019%0A%0A&source=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ&utm_brand=wired&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_content=Final&utm_mailing=WIR_Daily_110720&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nl&utm_term=list1_p1)That's a fascinating article. It's going to revolutionize design. The structure is the battery.
Maybe the structural battery will not have a defined life, but will just keep operating and never need replacing.

[Homestar]

Maybe the structural battery will not have a defined life, but will just keep operating and never need replacing.

Bollocks...

[Tombie]

That's a fascinating article. It's going to revolutionize design. The structure is the battery.
Maybe the structural battery will not have a defined life, but will just keep operating and never need replacing.

Ask yourself where the energy comes from then.... remember the rules - Energy is neither created or destroyed - it changes form.

[NavyDiver]

Ask yourself where the energy comes from then.... remember the rules - Energy is neither created or destroyed - it changes form.

Just some times for just a faction of time something from nothing can occur[biggrin] Alive and dead at the same time -The Physics Behind Schrödinger's Cat Paradox Deconstructing Schrodinger’s Cat – Solving the Paradox (https://scitechdaily.com/deconstructing-schrodingers-cat-solving-the-paradox/)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkVpMAbNOAo

[DiscoMick]

Bollocks...New ways of thinking are usually met with scepticism until they are proven to work.
If the vehicle is the battery and lithium ions are flowing around the structure to generate energy then what's to stop them just continuing to flow around and around endlessly? They're not being lost, but just moving.
A pumped hydro plant does the same thing to generate energy by moving water up and down endlessly, so it's not a new idea.

Interesting.

[Tombie]

New ways of thinking are usually met with scepticism until they are proven to work.
If the vehicle is the battery and lithium ions are flowing around the structure to generate energy then what's to stop them just continuing to flow around and around endlessly? They're not being lost, but just moving.
A pumped hydro plant does the same thing to generate energy by moving water up and down endlessly, so it's not a new idea.

Interesting.

WHAT? [emoji1787]. Thanks for the best laugh I’ve had today!!!!

Firstly - why would the “Ions” be lithium? And why would it be Ions? Not electrons? [emoji6]


Batteries convert chemical to electrical - there are losses.

Pumped hydro has HUGE losses - it’s economic benefit is to use off peak demand power from outside sources to replenish the upper holding tank.

Neither system is lossless and the battery must consume from one surface or another - it’s how batteries work. Even the best rechargeable batteries have finite cycle life.

[Tombie]

Just some times for just a faction of time something from nothing can occur[biggrin] Alive and dead at the same time -The Physics Behind Schrödinger's Cat Paradox Deconstructing Schrodinger’s Cat – Solving the Paradox (https://scitechdaily.com/deconstructing-schrodingers-cat-solving-the-paradox/)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkVpMAbNOAo

That theory is the basis for identifying as a Toaster [emoji6]

[Homestar]

New ways of thinking are usually met with scepticism until they are proven to work.
If the vehicle is the battery and lithium ions are flowing around the structure to generate energy then what's to stop them just continuing to flow around and around endlessly? They're not being lost, but just moving.
A pumped hydro plant does the same thing to generate energy by moving water up and down endlessly, so it's not a new idea.

Interesting.

Has nothing to do with new ways of thinking, but Physics. Now if you head over to Indigogo, there’s quite a few nifty better than unity inventions waiting for your support if you don’t understand that.

[DiscoMick]

WHAT? [emoji1787]. Thanks for the best laugh I’ve had today!!!!

Firstly - why would the “Ions” be lithium? And why would it be Ions? Not electrons? [emoji6]


Batteries convert chemical to electrical - there are losses.

Pumped hydro has HUGE losses - it’s economic benefit is to use off peak demand power from outside sources to replenish the upper holding tank.

Neither system is lossless and the battery must consume from one surface or another - it’s how batteries work. Even the best rechargeable batteries have finite cycle life.Because the Wired report was not talking about normal batteries, so the normal rules may be irrelevant.
The researchers were playing with lithium ions, carbon fibre and supercapacitors storing energy as electrostatic charge in structures.
This stuff could revolutionise the whole field.
I don't pretend to understand it, and very few people probably would either, but clearly the old rules are outdated in this new field of research.
It's a whole new approach. Fascinating, hope it works.

[Ferret]

Experiment for someone to try.

Charge your phone up and remove the battery. Take it outside and jam a fork though it. Now stand back and as you watch it go up in smoke and flames think about how good it would be to be sitting in your structural battery when somebody T bones you at an intersection.

[Tombie]

Because the Wired report was not talking about normal batteries, so the normal rules may be irrelevant.
The researchers were playing with lithium ions, carbon fibre and supercapacitors storing energy as electrostatic charge in structures.
This stuff could revolutionise the whole field.
I don't pretend to understand it, and very few people probably would either, but clearly the old rules are outdated in this new field of research.
It's a whole new approach. Fascinating, hope it works.

Agree it’s good to watch development.

Just be aware they can’t break rules of physics. And those rules are a given.

What the primary goal is would likely be energy density.

As mentioned by Vern - the safety aspect is one of the biggest hurdles. High density is often highly volatile.

[DiscoMick]

Imagine if they figured out a way to generate energy by causing ions to flow around structures - it could be revolutionary.
Buildings might power themselves. Vehicles might be self-powered. Space travel solved. Radical stuff.
After all, it wasn't that long ago that people scoffed at the idea of capturing solar energy - now it's possible everywhere.
Fascinating.

[Tombie]

Electrical engineers go to great lengths to prevent electrons moving around a structure!

It’s side effect is called electrocution. It’s pretty nasty [emoji41]

The fact of the matter is something has to give to make it a battery. Firstly it will need to be isolated from earth. Then isolated from anyone being able to make a circuit by touching it.

To be a battery a chemical reaction needs to take place - why all batteries wear out/have a finite lifespan. So if a structure is acting as cathode and anode - there needs to be an electrolyte of some description, a barrier (like the lipo) and there will be erosion of the structure as it functions.

These are rules... energy.....

Converting Solar to energy was around decades ago. Doing it on large scale was what people laughed at as it was cost prohibitive. It’s process takes Photons, converts them (rules remember) and makes electrical potential and heat. Even these panels wear out.

[Homestar]

Because the Wired report was not talking about normal batteries, so the normal rules may be irrelevant.
The researchers were playing with lithium ions, carbon fibre and supercapacitors storing energy as electrostatic charge in structures.
This stuff could revolutionise the whole field.
I don't pretend to understand it, and very few people probably would either, but clearly the old rules are outdated in this new field of research.
It's a whole new approach. Fascinating, hope it works.

Doesn’t matter what the batteries are, they have to comply with the laws of Physics which is what I said in my last post - supposing things might change doesn’t change laws if Physics. Entropy alone takes care of anything that may last forever let alone all the other issues, so it doesn’t matters how much you ‘believe’ they may be right, it’s all a load of cods wallop - and you’re the exact sort of person they are praying on to fund their retirement.

[DiscoMick]

Nothing to do with me. These are research scientists in Europe.

[Homestar]

I would question the qualifications of anyone who would claim that something could last forever...

Anyone can stick a term like that in a document on the internet.

[NavyDiver]

Electrical engineers go to great lengths to prevent electrons moving around a structure!

It’s side effect is called electrocution. It’s pretty nasty [emoji41]

The fact of the matter is something has to give to make it a battery. Firstly it will need to be isolated from earth. Then isolated from anyone being able to make a circuit by touching it.

To be a battery a chemical reaction needs to take place - why all batteries wear out/have a finite lifespan. So if a structure is acting as cathode and anode - there needs to be an electrolyte of some description, a barrier (like the lipo) and there will be erosion of the structure as it functions.

These are rules... energy.....

Converting Solar to energy was around decades ago. Doing it on large scale was what people laughed at as it was cost prohibitive. It’s process takes Photons, converts them (rules remember) and makes electrical potential and heat. Even these panels wear out.

Yes but- a cool new use of Graphite is in bridges in icy cold location. By allowing a little charge they can heat a little to keep ice free. [biggrin] I have a few graphite/hydrogen investments which link to some nifty uses like that. This link discusses using what was rubish in concrete for this Mechanical and Electrical Characteristics of Graphite Tailing Concrete (https://www.hindawi.com/journals/amse/2018/9297628/)

Scientist are cool

[AK83]

.... Radical stuff.
......

Yeah .. if they can build it.
Otherwise, back to the realm of scifi films.

I think what the other chaps are saying, in laymans terms:

Build the damned thing, not talk about building it!
Those that talk about building it = total BS.
Think of it in these terms .. if this was so 'revolutionary' [bighmmm] .. would they be advertising it all over the world so that every other half baked startup competitor gets an early jump on a competing product?

If it were real, you most likely won't read about it, until it was a product .. then you would learn what it is, how it works.. etc, etc.

Talk is cheap, and it usually ends up that a bunch of poor folks end up losing their retirement funds because some useless funds manager fell for this kind of technobabble.

The term trade secret doesn't exist without reason, does it.

ps. heads up for DiscoMick.
Look into these scams a little more in depth.
Remember the revolutionary battery that will last forever, and give 1000mile range .. etc, BS, BS ..
Some technical guidance as to why it will not work can be found at Thunderfoot on Youtube.
More recent video he made on the nanodiamond malarkey idea(EEVBlog did a similar vid on this idiotic announcement too).

[DiscoMick]

Scepticism is fine. Obstacles have to be identified and overcome.
I notice in the Wired story that the researchers have already made structural battery panels, such as bonnets and boots, to test their theories, so it's moving beyond the theoretical.

[slug_burner]

I think structural panels made from batteries will be possible. however lasting for ever is a different issue as is the safety of high energy density batteries. Lots of Energy released quickly equal lots of power and usually means heat and with heat comes expansion of gases etc.
This is all just challenge that people take on and try to resolve these issues. So far oxidation/burning of liquid fuels has allowed us to get great range and power from a tank of fuel. Lots of energy density there, yet it has been made safe enough for us to use every day all around the world. Self sealing tanks, mesh filled tanks to slow flame fronts all make liquid fuels even safer yet we don’t all use these technologies. It just has to be safe enough. Yes lithium batteries have had some bad press about catching fire etc. But we have various chemistries some maybe less energy dense but still better than lead acid,LiFePO4. So things can be made safe enough.

Who would have thought that electric cars would start to become available for the common man to use some 20 years ago, improvements have been made and why not structural batteries?

[Homestar]

I’ve got nothing against the structural battery bit, I’m sure it could be done, but it’s the BS tech they’re sprouting around lasting forever. I’m also unsure if the safety of them in a crash can be worked through and pass crash testing - that would be interesting to watch.

[AK83]

.....

Who would have thought that electric cars would start to become available for the common man to use some 20 years ago, improvements have been made and why not structural batteries?

Electric vehicles were more popular 100 years ago, than they are today.
What's happening today(and the past 10 years or so) .. is a resurgence in EVs.

One they are definitely not is 'available' to the common person.
Yeah, any old mug can go out and buy one and feel as though they are contributing to the climate change movement in some way, but 5 years(~100K klms) later and the vehicle will potentially cost something like $10K to replace batteries.

Once that reality smashes the 'common man' back to ground level, common mans' taste for EVs will be very bitter.

Teslas' practises aren't helping in any way either.

[DiscoMick]

An EV battery warranty usually covers a loss of up to about 30% efficiency, so the battery might still hold 70% of capacity. Five to 8 years and up to 160,000kms seems typical. The battery warranty is better than the warranty for the car.

Which electric car has the best battery warranty? | CarAdvice (https://www.caradvice.com.au/859099/electric-car-battery-warranty/)

[AK83]

An EV battery warranty usually covers a loss of up to about 30% efficiency, so the battery might still hold 70% of capacity. Five to 8 years and up to 160,000kms seems typical. The battery warranty is better than the warranty for the car.

.....

Maybe I'm just too skeptical .. but unless all the fine print has been read, warranties are for mugs!

I can imagine that these warranties specify that they will replace the battery in some manner, but more than likely some (ie, most!!) of the cost will be expected from the owner.

But like I said in one of my replies .. the actual warranty itself, nor the situation that they cost so much .. really isn't the issue.
The future of resale value is going to put many people off.
Not everyone is afforded the perks of leasing/salary sacrifice/etc.
So resale value is an important factor .. or will become one.

Some current era Evs at selling at 10% of their original sale price with approx 5 years of use.

typical examples of this is say a Prius/Corolla comparo.

$50K Priuses sell for $15K with a few klms on them, $25K Corollas will be similar(low ball) to a bit more($17K) for the same klms travelled.
When more people realise that S/H Priuses are going to cost a lot of money to bring back up to scratch .. this will further reduce resale value for Priuses/EVs further in the future.

[Homestar]

And there’s plenty of examples of $30K plus Nissan Leafs being worth scrap value after only 3 years when the batteries fail and Nissan leaves the owner high and dry even if the vehicle is just out of warranty.

[AK83]

And there’s plenty of examples of $30K plus Nissan Leafs being worth scrap value ....

This seems to be a regular thing in the US.
Many Tesla 'hackers' talk about very good vehicles going for scrap money.
But in very recent times, Telsa is making it harder to 'hack them' so to speak.