Replacing cranking and yellow top battery with Lithium's?

[Briar]

Background.

The AGM's in my caravan are getting down and looking at replacing them with Lithiums. When researching, I came across DCS batteries which seem pretty good quality and Australian made.

They are selling cranking and dual battery systems for vehicles as well. Some reviews that the system seems to work well. As I'm coming up to 7 years old on my original OEM battery and 5 years on the Traxide, Yellow top, just getting info about swapping both out for Lithium.

If the D4 is not run for a few days I get the low battery message when opening the car, but after 7 years am thinking I don't want to push it and have the main cranking battery cark it while I'm in the bush somewhere.

DCS on one of their webpages shows 2 x 75 Ah Lithium installed in a D4. However, this is with a Redarc or Victron isolator system I think which is what DCS flog off.

So 2 questions, mainly.

1) Has anyone done this, ie, replace the OEM or traxide battery with Lithiums? Any reviews here about that?
2) How would 2 appropriate size batteries go with the Traxide system. DCS claim pretty much "drop in" but am wary about this. Any comment from Tim?

Reason for considering this- Batteries are getting on and I'll end up saving about 40kg of weight which is not to be sneezed at.

Link to DCS page showing dual system in D4 including cranking battery.

Thanks
Trevor
Ultimate DCS 12V 200Ah Dual Battery Setup (Lithium) (https://www.deepcyclesystems.com.au/product/ultimate-dcs-12v-200ah-dual-battery-setup-lithium/)

[W&KO]

I’ll find a link and post for you...it’s a review on the DCS, think it’s an under bonnet install as well.

I screen shot this From the video

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201114/c2aa28ed77ca65b37c88643d4e5ebe4d.png

Other than that I recon I know which way this thread will go.

I just switched from AGM to Lithium for our AUX, it’d be a nice brainer to upgrade your van batteries.

[Briar]

I’ll find a link and post for you...it’s a review on the DCS, think it’s an under bonnet install as well.


Other than that I recon I know which way this thread will go.

I just switched from AGM to Lithium for our AUX, it’d be a nice brainer to upgrade your van batteries.

Does this mean get out the popcorn? I'm just trying to get facts.

[SeanC]

I thought about replacing both cranking and auxiliary batteries with DCS lithium’s. But to be economical due to their price, you need them to last at least 3 times longer than lead acid/AGM. There isn’t any data on whether they will last 10+ years under bonnet, which is one of the harshest environments for batteries. Ended up putting a lead acid as a cranking battery and 2x 100A/h DCS lithium’s behind the second row of seats. Can’t fault them as auxiliary batteries.

[W&KO]

Does this mean get out the popcorn? I'm just trying to get facts.

Well let’s hope the facts don’t get in the way of a good story...hang we need the old saying reversed

There probably hasn’t been to many punter who have actually tried and tested a lithium under the in real conditions

Anyways....watch this video it give a view from somebody that has actually run one under the bonnet.

This LiFePo4 Starter Battery Changed How I Travel! Lithium Under Bonnet Setup - 12 Month Review - YouTube (https://youtu.be/FbStDC-7Q9E)

[drivesafe]

Hi Brian and first off, there is no such thing as an Australian made lithium battery.

They bring in a battery and put their sticker on it, not exactly what I would call Australian made.

Next, this crap that lithium batteries are “drop-in” replacements for lead acid batteries is nothing more than advertising hype, being used by a lot of lithium battery sellers.

Now you could use one of my DT90 or USI-160 isolators and set then to Storage Mode, and they would do the same job as their VSR.

But a small insignificant detail the seller neglects to point out is that at 12.7v, the cut-out voltage of their VSR ( and my DT90 or USI-160 isolators when set to Storage Mode ) means BOTH BATTERIES will have less that 5% capacity left in them when the isolator turns off.

This is because lithium batteries have a constant discharge voltage of around 13.1v to 13.3v, right up until the final stage of their discharge at around 95% of their capacity.

At this point the voltage drops rapidly and so by the time the isolator turns off, you would be very lucky to have much more that one or two amperes left in the cranking battery.

With a lithium battery that low, the current needed to start a motor would pull the voltage down even further, and I would not give you much chance of starting a motor on a cold morning in that situation.

There is another potentially expensive problem when lithium batteries are used as cranking batteries.

When a battery, be it lead acid or lithium, is connect to an alternator, it suppresses the high voltage spikes all alternators create while running.

These spikes can be as high as 60v, and that sort of voltage spike will easily damage or destroy your vehicles electronics.

When a lead acid battery fails, it is still connected to the cranking battery and will continue to act as a massive voltage spike suppressor.

When lithium batteries fail, they go OPEN CIRCUIT, and no longer offer any form of voltage spike suppression.

The perceived advantages of using a lithium battery as a cranking battery seem quite feasible. You save weight, space and would supposedly give a longer lifespan.

BUT with these perceived advantages, yet not one single vehicle manufacturer is using them, and even hybrid vehicles, which are powered by lithium batteries, have a bad acid battery as the cranking battery for starting the motors used to charge the lithium batteries while on the move.


This is a case of “buyer beware”

[drivesafe]

Hi again Brian, something I have not been able to get any info on, either here or from Europe, is how will your Disco’s BMS ( battery Management System ) react to having a higher voltage cranking battery fitted?

At this stage, there is no way to alter or even turn off the Land Rover BMS, and it reacts to the voltage level and current passing through the cranking battery’s negative cable.

The vehicles where these systems are being promoted, like Toyotas ( which do not have a BMS ) and Nissans ( where the smart alternator can be disabled ), this would not be an issue.

[Briar]

Hi again Brian, something I have not been able to get any info on, either here or from Europe, is how will your Disco’s BMS ( battery Management System ) react to having a higher voltage cranking battery fitted?

At this stage, there is no way to alter or even turn off the Land Rover BMS, and it reacts to the voltage level and current passing through the cranking battery’s negative cable.

The vehicles where these systems are being promoted, like Toyotas ( which do not have a BMS ) and Nissans ( where the smart alternator can be disabled ), this would not be an issue.

Hi Tim

When you say hi "Brian" are you meaning me??

My handle here is "Briar" as that's the name of my property. My actual name is Trevor, so just unsure whether you meant me to respond.

[Briar]

Hi again Brian, something I have not been able to get any info on, either here or from Europe, is how will your Disco’s BMS ( battery Management System ) react to having a higher voltage cranking battery fitted?

At this stage, there is no way to alter or even turn off the Land Rover BMS, and it reacts to the voltage level and current passing through the cranking battery’s negative cable.

The vehicles where these systems are being promoted, like Toyotas ( which do not have a BMS ) and Nissans ( where the smart alternator can be disabled ), this would not be an issue.

I appreciate your advice. I may have to keep D4 with the same batteries. Not an issue. My caravan I'll end up going Lithium but may have to add a DC to DC charger inbetween which I currently don't need with the vans AGM's.

[drivesafe]

Your caravan is a different story, Briar, you will need to look at both the amount of use you expect to do with your caravan, and what you want to power while using your caravan.


If the van is going to get known long term usage, then lithiums are probably the way to go.


BUT, as shown in W&KO’s chart, you need to do a lot of research before you buy, not just the batteries, but the DC/DC gear, and you will need DC/DC gear of some form.


With your Disco, so far I have not come across a single lithium battery setup that can compete with one of my systems, when all the factors are taken into account, especially performance vs cost.


So you already have the best setup.


PS sorry about the handle misread!

[W&KO]

I appreciate your advice. I may have to keep D4 with the same batteries. Not an issue. My caravan I'll end up going Lithium but may have to add a DC to DC charger inbetween which I currently don't need with the vans AGM's.

For your caravan, my thoughts

I kinda gave up on researching, well Once I knew roughly what I wanted I decided to talk to those that had the brands i was thinking on using and get their real life feedback.

Apart from a DC-DC I believe you also need a couple of other items depending on which brands you purchase.

Shunt/low voltage cut out, given lithium’s hold a constant voltage you need watch capacity in % to know charge state of battery. I believe mine will cut out at 18% therefore I have 182ah usable. Actually that’s the only thing other than a battery charger with a lithium profile. I’m not carrying a battery charger.

If you already have solar on the van and a quality regulator than you may get to keep using it....it depends on which DC-DC you choose, some preference the alternator, others take charge from both solar and alternator and some I believe preference solar over alternator. My DC-DC preferences the alternator, even though it has a solar input I still run my solar through a separate controller so that my battery receives charge from both sources.

Battery, understand charge rate, mine only accepts 60ah and max discharge rate, mine has 200a constant discharge which is what I needed as we ditched gas and only use an induction cooktop.

Costs, lithium appears to expensive and there are comparisons around that make it look pretty affordable over the life of the battery when compared to AGM. I do know it’s a big investment regardless.

We are not towing and are setting up for two years on the road.....at the moment it looks like my system now has a fair bit of fat in it. went from a 110ah AGM to a 200 lithium which has pretty much tripled my capacity for no real extra weight. I also have more efficient solar. On the flip side it’s nice not having to watch SoC and weather.

Keep us posted on your van upgrade.

[Blknight.aus]

FWIW..

Lithium batteries are not a drop in solution for cranking batteries (yet) they require charging and monitoring regimes that are outside of the realm of easily 90%+ of all vehicles out there today.

Coupled with the appropriate charge managers You could easily and reliably use them for every other aspect of operating a vehicle including using a small DC-DC charger to pump charge the main cranking battery or even direct jump start from (like say a lithium jump start pack does).

as Drive safe has already pointed out the issue is the flatter steeper curved discharge profile of the battery which maintains a near constant voltage until the last few amps of the battery that is the main issue to keep you from wanting to use one as a starter. The second being that as the battery begins to fail it still maintains the same constant voltage profile under load but it wont deliver for as long. This means short of a catastrophic failure you dont get a lot of warning about the battery going bad, and a catastrophic failure is unhealthily toxic and "oh, the cars on fire" levels of bad for your health.

Lithiums also do not react well to high charge currents which (assuming you let it get flat enough for this to happen) is going to happen if the lithium is down near flat and the alternator is either old school (in which case it will pump every amp it can until the voltage gets to regulation point) or computer permitted to run at max amps to put the initial charge into the battery (which can mean the charge voltage will go above the nominal charge rate for your lithium battery as well as over amps) the oddball curve compared to lead acid batteries also suffers from absorbsion lag, if you charge em fast the cell voltage comes up quickly but then if you dont maintain a high voltage but low current charge to them they may only be at 60-70% of their capacity, at normal automotive lead acid charge rates this could be as little as 30-50% (think short run driving, just to the shops and back type stuff, in winter at night)

IMHO, FWIW
Well looked after when it comes to bang for your buck and ignoring unexpected failure (dropped it, set fire to it, some one shot it anything thats not a natural death by attritional use type deal) the rough order in terms of dollar value for stored energy over time with no other considerations...

Cheap flooded cells are in front because they are cheap to buy and easy to maintain, in perfect conditions they last for nearly as long as a lithium or AGM should in average conditions. in average conditions the cheap cost multiplied by the 3 year average useful life puts them ahead in terms of cost
Lithiums are in second the higher cost is offset by the extended life in average conditions they should last about 10 years, in perfect conditions and depending on use theoretically they might make 25 + years in which case, miles in front.
AGMs are in third with the cost and slightly longer life over a cheap flooded cell making them more expensive.

But you have to weigh in all the pros and cons. You're not all going to sit your batteries in a perfectly controlled environment with perfect use conditions. The mechanical abuse an AGM can take over a cheap flooded cell battery will put the AGM ahead in short order if you shake a flooded cell battery apart every 3 months. If you cant afford the weight or space required to mount 1000AH of flooded cell batteries (or agm) then lithium takes a massive lead.

Would I run lithium? Yes, if I could afford it, In a heart beat but, I have a solar system that can be relied upon to keep top up charge going to the battery and I very rarely do short runs in conditions that are adverse conditions for the battery. It also helps that if I'm desperate enough I need absolutely no voltage anywhere on the vehicle and I can get it to start and drive normally. (actually that applies to all of my vehicles, the motor bike included)

[drivesafe]

Hi Dave and there is some very good advantages to using lithium batteries in caravans but it still comes back to whether a user is actually going to get the benefit of the advantages lithium’s offer over conventional batteries.

This is why everyone considering caravan use and more specifically battery use in these caravans, needs to do a lot of research about what they will personally gain or potentially loose, by swapping to lithium batteries.

People are unlikely to “loose” by going to lithium’s from a usage prospective, but their pockets could take a seriously huge hit with no real gain, and this is where people need to look hard at what they actually want from their battery setup.

The biggest single problem I see for someone trying to decide whether to make the change is the incredible amount of misleading info out there about lithium battery capabilities.

The amount of times “individuals” make claims about ”how much better” their system now works since they changed to lithium batteries, when in actual fact, they have gained no real advantage and the change has actually done nothing more than make them “feel Good”.

There needs to be far more True data based discussion on this subject so people considering the potential of changing, can get a realistic idea of whether a change is to their specific advantage.

[Briar]

For your caravan, my thoughts

I kinda gave up on researching, well Once I knew roughly what I wanted I decided to talk to those that had the brands i was thinking on using and get their real life feedback.

Apart from a DC-DC I believe you also need a couple of other items depending on which brands you purchase.

Shunt/low voltage cut out, given lithium’s hold a constant voltage you need watch capacity in % to know charge state of battery. I believe mine will cut out at 18% therefore I have 182ah usable. Actually that’s the only thing other than a battery charger with a lithium profile. I’m not carrying a battery charger.

If you already have solar on the van and a quality regulator than you may get to keep using it....it depends on which DC-DC you choose, some preference the alternator, others take charge from both solar and alternator and some I believe preference solar over alternator. My DC-DC preferences the alternator, even though it has a solar input I still run my solar through a separate controller so that my battery receives charge from both sources.

Battery, understand charge rate, mine only accepts 60ah and max discharge rate, mine has 200a constant discharge which is what I needed as we ditched gas and only use an induction cooktop.

Costs, lithium appears to expensive and there are comparisons around that make it look pretty affordable over the life of the battery when compared to AGM. I do know it’s a big investment regardless.

We are not towing and are setting up for two years on the road.....at the moment it looks like my system now has a fair bit of fat in it. went from a 110ah AGM to a 200 lithium which has pretty much tripled my capacity for no real extra weight. I also have more efficient solar. On the flip side it’s nice not having to watch SoC and weather.

Keep us posted on your van upgrade.

The van has all quality Victron gear, Blue Solar Controller and 240v Blue smart charger. Both have bluetooth and Lithium profiles available. All van 12 volt goes through a Projecta 12v low voltage cutout to protect batteries from getting too discharged. I can set jumpers on that to set low voltage cutout. I will get (probably) a victron DC to DC charger. I would think all the victron devices should work together. Still researching but this seems the way to go.

I appreciate your logic and thoughts. Lithium is still favoured in my mind. I currently run 2 (6 volt)x 250 Ah Full Rivers wired in series. They seriously have to be about 35-40kg each. If I went to 100Ah Lithiums they are 13kg each and physical size is almost identical so no manufacturing to fit them in and I save about 45kg of mass. So this is the way I am leaning but still open to ideas. No mad rush.

[drivesafe]

The van has all quality Victron gear, Blue Solar Controller and 240v Blue smart charger. Both have bluetooth and Lithium profiles available. All van 12 volt goes through a Projecta 12v low voltage cutout to protect batteries from getting too discharged. I can set jumpers on that to set low voltage cutout. I will get (probably) a victron DC to DC charger. I would think all the victron devices should work together. Still researching but this seems the way to go.

I appreciate your logic and thoughts. Lithium is still favoured in my mind. I currently run 2 (6 volt)x 250 Ah Full Rivers wired in series. They seriously have to be about 35-40kg each. If I went to 100Ah Lithiums they are 13kg each and physical size is almost identical so no manufacturing to fit them in and I save about 45kg of mass. So this is the way I am leaning but still open to ideas. No mad rush.
With your existing equipment Briar, you are pretty well setup for a comparatively less expensive changeover if you go that way.

Again, do make sure you research the different lithium batteries on the market if you do decide to change to them.

I no longer sell lithium batteries otherwise I would have been able to offer you what are probable the best, dollar for dollar, lithium batteries on the Australian market.

Seriously though, do your homework before buying, as there are some crap batteries on the market and some are well known brands that are proving to be nothing more than elcheapo batteries, marketed under well known brand names, but are failing after very short periods of use.

[drivesafe]

BTW Briar, as you posted, if you are not in a hurry, keep an eye on caravan makers in Victoria.

As they get over the effects of the lock-down, there will be at least two new All-Electric caravans coming on the market and one of them is going out of their way to use as much Australian Made content as they can.

They are also assembling their own lithium batteries using Japanese Lithium cell and quite a few other up-market products.

Some of these products could be very interesting to the RV industry as a whole.

[PhilipA]

If you look at the Will Prouse You tube site , he has tested Renolgy batteries in the States against others and found them to meet their AH claims.

The brands sold in Australia are generally not the same as in the USA but this is one that is.

I am now deeply suspicious of Ebay Lithium Battery AH claims after experience by a friend and also an earlier Ebay "scandal" involving a cheap seller of lithium batteries who was eventually delisted but had 100% positive feedback even though they had many disgruntled customers.

Regards PhilipA

DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoj6RxIAQq8kmJme-5dnN0Q)

[gavinwibrow]

Hi Dave and there is some very good advantages to using lithium batteries in caravans but it still comes back to whether a user is actually going to get the benefit of the advantages lithium’s offer over conventional batteries.

This is why everyone considering caravan use and more specifically battery use in these caravans, needs to do a lot of research about what they will personally gain or potentially loose, by swapping to lithium batteries.

People are unlikely to “loose” by going to lithium’s from a usage prospective, but their pockets could take a seriously huge hit with no real gain, and this is where people need to look hard at what they actually want from their battery setup.

The biggest single problem I see for someone trying to decide whether to make the change is the incredible amount of misleading info out there about lithium battery capabilities.

The amount of times “individuals” make claims about ”how much better” their system now works since they changed to lithium batteries, when in actual fact, they have gained no real advantage and the change has actually done nothing more than make them “feel Good”.

There needs to be far more True data based discussion on this subject so people considering the potential of changing, can get a realistic idea of whether a change is to their specific advantage.


For Traxide Tim / Drivesafe - ?
So, I like any number of others have a pretty standard modern battery set-up in my 4 year old van with a well known BMS (name escapes me at the moment, and van is parked elsewhere), and the AGM battery has just given up the ghost, despite being semi permanently fitted to a 120W solar panel when parked up.

We try to do at least 3 - 4 trips a year, of varying lengths and towing with the D4, with some off grid, but never anywhere near dropping the battery to 50% (we take another AGM if we plan any more than a couple of days away from power).

I would appreciate any comments, but suspect that in our situation, and similar to any number of others, moving to Lithium would currently be a lineball decision, given (i) we are getting on and have an absolute max of 10 years still capable to tow if all goes well health-wise, and (ii) we would need a DC to DC charger plus whatever else upgrading factored in.

[drivesafe]

Hi Gavin and any idea of the brand of AGMs you have now?

[Briar]

I no longer sell lithium batteries otherwise I would have been able to offer you what are probable the best, dollar for dollar, lithium batteries on the Australian market.

.

Am interested in your opinion here as to ''what are the best"?

I generally ignore the hype and ebay. What interested me in DCS Lithium was the quality of their battery management system. They were willing for a battery to be cut open and show off their BMS. It's on Youtube, will find link. I'm certainly not going to think a $500 battery will do the job but don't want to spend money needlessly.

[Briar]

Well let’s hope the facts don’t get in the way of a good story...hang we need the old saying reversed

There probably hasn’t been to many punter who have actually tried and tested a lithium under the in real conditions

Anyways....watch this video it give a view from somebody that has actually run one under the bonnet.

This LiFePo4 Starter Battery Changed How I Travel! Lithium Under Bonnet Setup - 12 Month Review - YouTube (https://youtu.be/FbStDC-7Q9E)

Yes, I have seen this video. Even though the guy (Stephan?) did get the DCS batteries for free his review seems fairly unbiased. Impressed with the DCS BMS. Certainly seems more substantial than some of the eBay lithiums. Also bluetooth monitoring of individual cells seems nice.

[Vern]

Yes, I have seen this video. Even though the guy (Stephan?) did get the DCS batteries for free his review seems fairly unbiased. Impressed with the DCS BMS. Certainly seems more substantial than some of the eBay lithiums. Also bluetooth monitoring of individual cells seems nice.Hey Brian, i mean Briar, its Stefan, not Stephan[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787].
Sorry, couldn't help myself[emoji1]

[Tombie]

Hey Brian, i mean Briar, its Stefan, not Stephan[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787].
Sorry, couldn't help myself[emoji1]

No probs Bern!

[Milton477]

I'm 3 years into my LifePo4 Lithium batteries in the caravan journey. This is what works for me, rightly or wrongly...

D4 with Traxide & 2 dual batteries, one behind the headlight & the other in the box on the driver's side. Anderson plug on the towbar connecting the van to the Traxide system through a 50A DC2DC with a separate remote control.

Caravan with 2 CALB180AH battery packs connected in parallel so 360AH total. BMS is external & something I built myself. Also, Victron solar controller, 600W of panels & a Victron Multiplus 3KVA AC switch/inverter/120A DC charger. Cheapie generator off evil bay. RVD protection on the 240VAC mains.

Lithiums can be charged via solar or by the Multiplus if 240 is available. Batteries charge from 240VAC in 3-4 hours depending on Bluetooth enabled settings in the Multiplus. The generator can also supply enough power to charge in 2-4 hours too. I sometimes use the DC2DC to charge along with the solar while travelling & running the aircon to keep the temperature in the van at 28deg. Having endured 2 weeks at a site north of Cloncurry where temps are above 40 every day, keeping the van cool is important.

If the DC2DC + solar is not keeping up then I will run the generator located on the back bumper of the van while travelling to keep the van cool & charge the batteries.

So, when I stop for the night, my van does not take much to cool to 24 or so & the batteries are full. Like Tuesday night in a gravel pit outside Kynuna at stupid temperature, I set the Multiplus to only accept 3.2A from the generator. This dials the generator noise down to acceptable in the van so as to run it all night. My 3000W generator effectively becomes a 1000W generator.

I am hearing people saying but you can't run AC on 3.2A. This is true unless the batteries are assisting which is what happens in my system. Through the night, when the AC ramps up, the batteries supply any current needed above 3.2A through the Multiplus Assist Feature. When the AC ramps down & doesn't need 3.2A, the Multiplus charges the batteries.

I'm not in it for the calculations as to which technology (AGM or Lithium) is more cost effective in the long term, I don't care. I need power while mobile & I need to replace that power quickly when necessary in order for my system to function like it does. I can't fault the charging characteristics of my Lithiums, they take everything you can throw at them until fully charged. But, the battery management system needs to be external to the batteries, not like the drop in varieties where the BMS is contained within the battery & you have no control over the charge/discharge settings.

I have recently fitted a Victron SmartShunt to the Traxide on the D4. This is producing some interesting results when the D4 is stopped. The vehicle is power hungry for a while even when stopped it seems.

[W&KO]

. BMS is external

I'm not in it for the calculations as to which technology (AGM or Lithium) is more cost effective in the long term, I don't care. .

Thanks for the detailed replay.

Re: external BMS, if/when i need to upgrade I will go down the external BMS with separate battery pack.

Cost wasn’t a factor when I switched as their was a bunch of other requirements that needed to be met amd lithium was the solution.

Re: calculations, I’ve never added project usage and Amps......have always just installed what I could afford at the time with my fall back being the charger attached to the motor and/or add to the system later.

[drivesafe]

Am interested in your opinion here as to ''what are the best"?

I generally ignore the hype and ebay. What interested me in DCS Lithium was the quality of their battery management system. They were willing for a battery to be cut open and show off their BMS. It's on Youtube, will find link. I'm certainly not going to think a $500 battery will do the job but don't want to spend money needlessly.
Hi again Briar, while the DCS batteries would be an overkill in caravan use, because their higher price is based on their ability to take and give high currents, required for starting motors and then being able to be recharged quickly after starting the motor. Just like lead acid batteries are designed to do.

While it would not be that advantageous to use a dedicated lead acid cranking battery as a house battery, there is actually a potential to use a lithium cranking battery as a house battery and SAVE MONEY.

It all depends on how you intend to use your house battery, or number of house batteries, depending on your specific needs.

If you are looking at running an A/C then you will need a number of lithium house batteries but they do not need to be cranking type, because you are more in need of large capacity, so you can run the A/C with high current needs as well as the large capacity to operate for long periods of time.

Standard, good quality lithiums will easily meet this need as the high current demand will be spread over a number of batteries, thus reducing the current demand each battery.

But if the for the majority of your use, you are only powering very lower current devices like compressor fridges, camp lighting and a small inverter for charging phone/camera/computer batteries, and your high current demand is just for short periods, like running a toaster, or microwave or even an induction stove, then because of their ability to provide very high currents from a single battery, on demand, a single DCS may very well meet your needs.

So while they are expensive, again, because of their ability to provide very high currents, you may only need a single battery, thus saving you money by not having to buy ( and carry ) a number of batteries.

It always comes back to your specific needs as to what you will actually need.

[Briar]

Hi again Briar, while the DCS batteries would be an overkill in caravan use, because their higher price is based on their ability to take and give high currents, required for starting motors and then being able to be recharged quickly after starting the motor. Just like lead acid batteries are designed to do.

While it would not be that advantageous to use a dedicated lead acid cranking battery as a house battery, there is actually a potential to use a lithium cranking battery as a house battery and SAVE MONEY.

It all depends on how you intend to use your house battery, or number of house batteries, depending on your specific needs.

If you are looking at running an A/C then you will need a number of lithium house batteries but they do not need to be cranking type, because you are more in need of large capacity, so you can run the A/C with high current needs as well as the large capacity to operate for long periods of time.

Standard, good quality lithiums will easily meet this need as the high current demand will be spread over a number of batteries, thus reducing the current demand each battery.

But if the for the majority of your use, you are only powering very lower current devices like compressor fridges, camp lighting and a small inverter for charging phone/camera/computer batteries, and your high current demand is just for short periods, like running a toaster, or microwave or even an induction stove, then because of their ability to provide very high currents from a single battery, on demand, a single DCS may very well meet your needs.

So while they are expensive, again, because of their ability to provide very high currents, you may only need a single battery, thus saving you money by not having to buy ( and carry ) a number of batteries.

It always comes back to your specific needs as to what you will actually need.

Hi Tim

Thanks for that. I was focusing on the DCS batteries BMS as being critically important. I'm wasn't really considering that the extra cost of the DCS was purely because of the current draw that they allow. I am running a large compressor fridge and have a small 800 watt inverter as well as all the normal 12 volt stuff. Certainly no intention of any high draw needs from the battery such as microwave, toaster or A/C. Based on what you have said lower cost Lithium such as the iTechWorld's might well be sufficient??

Certainly nicer to pay $800 each rather that $1200 that DCS would entail.

We currently have 250 Ah of Full River AGM but are 5 years old and pulled them out to get load tested. They are at about 80%, so only good for about 200Ah. Pulling them down to 50% I effectively only get 100Ah of usable power. One 100Ah Lithium would be close in current comparison, but would not be enough. Three months back I was at Adels Grove/ Lawn Hill. Over 30-35 degrees each day and pretty cloudy. Even with 405 watts of solar on van roof and 150 watt blanket that I moved around I still ended up with only 45% left in batteries after just 2 days. Was intending to stay at Adels for 3 days and then some other free camping so could have really run out of power. I will probably still go for 2 x 100Ah.

What is your opinion in the iTech ones? I realise that just because every second person who has them says they work great, those comments are often after after less than a year of use.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[drivesafe]

Hi Briar, you might want to do some checking about Itech. They have a very bad reputation of supplying anything but correct specs for many of their products.

While they market a 120Ah Lithium battery, it is, according to them, only good for 80% of that?????????

First off, I have had absolutely no hands on experience with Solarking batteries, but I have been trying to check them out for some time, after looking at their specs.

They quote 2000 cycles down to 0% capacity. In other words, their 100Ah battery will supply 100Ah for use, and that’s pretty reasonable.

Their specs are slightly better than average, but taking into account their low price, these seem like a good buy for the usage you are intending.

BUT, you need to do your own investigation, to make sure they are as good as they say.

[gavinwibrow]

Hi Gavin and any idea of the brand of AGMs you have now?


Hi Tim. Have just visited my van and pulled out the two batteries.

The one that came with the new van in late 2015 - Black Case called Positive Batteries Deep Cycle DC100-12S. Was down to 7V and is currently on my wee MXS 5.0 12V 5A 7/8 stage charger for a week to see if it can be rescued - not holding my breath.

To explain the 7V, my solar panel ended up upside down (slightly possible in recent storms, but??) and there was a week between all good and when the van went in for its annual service (at which time I discovered the "disturbed" solar panels, and was subsequently told by the shop that the batteries were shot).

Second one - INTERESTING - Red Cased Ultimate Extreme UL100VO BCI Group 27 - bought from Batteries Plus sometime in 2016/7 but can't find the receipt - now found to have vertical crack lines in the outer case down both of the long sides corresponding to the edges of individual cells. Given that this battery has spent its whole life encased in an ARK Power Pack case, the cracks are a concern - no acid escaping as yet. I've left it on the charger for 3 days and currently up from 7V to 12.6V, but waiting to see if it will hold charge - load tester has indicated it is on the weak side.


At the risk of going even further off topic, I have 2 new (August) Bosch SM 90D26R batteries under the bonnet of my RRC which don't seem to charge above 12.6V once settled - is this normal? They will show around 12.8V just after coming off full charge.
My Nanocom Evo shows around 14V +/- 0.2V as I drive along, so a significant difference.

[drivesafe]

Hi Gavin and as the second battery actually sounds like it might have been overcharged, to cause the cracking, just maybe, this is the reason for the potential failure of the other battery.

Also a bit strange for solar panels being upside down to be the cause of any problems. specially over such a short time period.

Do you know what the operating voltage settings are for your solar regulator?

As for the Bosch batteries. At a settled voltage of 12.6v. That is actually pretty good and indicates an SoC of around 95%.

[gavinwibrow]

Hi Gavin and as the second battery actually sounds like it might have been overcharged, to cause the cracking, just maybe, this is the reason for the potential failure of the other battery.

Also a bit strange for solar panels being upside down to be the cause of any problems. specially over such a short time period.

Do you know what the operating voltage settings are for your solar regulator?

As for the Bosch batteries. At a settled voltage of 12.6v. That is actually pretty good and indicates an SoC of around 95%.


Sorry for the confusion Tim, when I said upside down I meant the solar receptors were underneath /flat on the ground = no charging.

I'll check on the technical details of the MTTP of my solar panels in the next few days and report back. I thought this unit could not overcharge, but ....

Many thanks for the RRC 12.6V clarification. I'm sure others will note with interest/gladness

[AndyG]

Hope this is not topic, but where do Lead Crystal batteries fit into the mix, as house batteries.

[drivesafe]

where do Lead Crystal batteries fit into the mix, as house batteries.
Hi Andy, shortly after Lead Crystal batteries first came on the market, I got involved with the importer and also started selling them.

I very quickly realised that these batteries had to be charged in a very specific way and while it was achievable, it was not going to be easily done by most potential users, so I stopped selling them.

A good while after this, the quality of the batteries took a nose dive and they became almost impossible to recharge properly.

There is a lot more to the Lead Crystal battery saga but in short, if you already have the original batteries and can charge them properly, they will most likely out last lead acid batteries by a long way.

If you are considering buying new LC batteries, in short, DON’T. There are serious problems with them, and problems that can not be addressed.

[Bagoo76]

Hi Dave and there is some very good advantages to using lithium batteries in caravans but it still comes back to whether a user is actually going to get the benefit of the advantages lithium’s offer over conventional batteries.

This is why everyone considering caravan use and more specifically battery use in these caravans, needs to do a lot of research about what they will personally gain or potentially loose, by swapping to lithium batteries.

People are unlikely to “loose” by going to lithium’s from a usage prospective, but their pockets could take a seriously huge hit with no real gain, and this is where people need to look hard at what they actually want from their battery setup.

The biggest single problem I see for someone trying to decide whether to make the change is the incredible amount of misleading info out there about lithium battery capabilities.

The amount of times “individuals” make claims about ”how much better” their system now works since they changed to lithium batteries, when in actual fact, they have gained no real advantage and the change has actually done nothing more than make them “feel Good”.

There needs to be far more True data based discussion on this subject so people considering the potential of changing, can get a realistic idea of whether a change is to their specific advantage.

You ask for facts, here’s one for example: LiefePo4 is incredibly more effective at absorbing current, therefore the battery bank is able to replenish itself much quicker than the lead acid. This makes a huge difference.

[drivesafe]

Hi Bagoo76 and “if” you have a lithium battery that can take high current charging, sure you are correct.

But the very same thing applies to lead acid batteries.

I always instruct my customers to use high current recharging batteries, like Yellowtops and SSB HVT series batteries, or any cranking battery, as their auxiliary battery.

This allows both the cranking battery and auxiliary battery to take every thing the alternator can produce.

And note, this allows the correct lead acid batteries to charge just as fast as some special lithium batteries can be charged, but the lead acid batteries cost a fraction of the price of these special lithium batteries.

Also note, my isolators have been exploiting high current recharging for over thirty years now, so the principal is well and truely established, but lithium batteries have only been capable of this type of charging for a short time. We just have to wait and see if it is viable long term.

[Tombie]

You ask for facts, here’s one for example: LiefePo4 is incredibly more effective at absorbing current, therefore the battery bank is able to replenish itself much quicker than the lead acid. This makes a huge difference.

Gday Nick,

In some versions you are very correct. Not all have such high inrush capability. Hence why most DcDc units only run around 25a - most LiFePo4 are around 20 amp.

With the research being thrown into the tech at the moment there are some interesting developments ahead.

[W&KO]

Gday Nick,

In some versions you are very correct. Not all have such high inrush capability. Hence why most DcDc units only run around 25a - most LiFePo4 are around 20 amp.

With the research being thrown into the tech at the moment there are some interesting developments ahead.

I agree that you need to check lithium battery charge rates along with discharge. Although my research indicates that most take a higher rate than 20ah. The pic I posted at the start of the thread indicates this as well.

Either way

top of my list was discharge rate where I needed 200ah which I found
Second on my list was charge rate, mine accepts 60ah which I was happy enough with.

40 DC-DC and separate solar going into the battery. Generally get around 50 going in while driving. I’ve always been back at 100% before next destination is reached. Hang on, once I haven’t but it was a short drive home and solar had me back at 100 quick enough.

[AndyG]

Hi Andy, shortly after Lead Crystal batteries first came on the market, I got involved with the importer and also started selling them.

I very quickly realised that these batteries had to be charged in a very specific way and while it was achievable, it was not going to be easily done by most potential users, so I stopped selling them.

A good while after this, the quality of the batteries took a nose dive and they became almost impossible to recharge properly.

There is a lot more to the Lead Crystal battery saga but in short, if you already have the original batteries and can charge them properly, they will most likely out last lead acid batteries by a long way.

If you are considering buying new LC batteries, in short, DON’T. There are serious problems with them, and problems that can not be addressed.

Thanks that is very interesting

[outback traveller]

Background.

The AGM's in my caravan are getting down and looking at replacing them with Lithiums. When researching, I came across DCS batteries which seem pretty good quality and Australian made.

They are selling cranking and dual battery systems for vehicles as well. Some reviews that the system seems to work well. As I'm coming up to 7 years old on my original OEM battery and 5 years on the Traxide, Yellow top, just getting info about swapping both out for Lithium.

If the D4 is not run for a few days I get the low battery message when opening the car, but after 7 years am thinking I don't want to push it and have the main cranking battery cark it while I'm in the bush somewhere.

DCS on one of their webpages shows 2 x 75 Ah Lithium installed in a D4. However, this is with a Redarc or Victron isolator system I think which is what DCS flog off.

So 2 questions, mainly.

1) Has anyone done this, ie, replace the OEM or traxide battery with Lithiums? Any reviews here about that?
2) How would 2 appropriate size batteries go with the Traxide system. DCS claim pretty much "drop in" but am wary about this. Any comment from Tim?

Reason for considering this- Batteries are getting on and I'll end up saving about 40kg of weight which is not to be sneezed at.

Link to DCS page showing dual system in D4 including cranking battery.

Thanks
Trevor
Ultimate DCS 12V 200Ah Dual Battery Setup (Lithium) (https://www.deepcyclesystems.com.au/product/ultimate-dcs-12v-200ah-dual-battery-setup-lithium/)

G'day Briar
I have a 2014 Kimberley Karavan with 4 x 120Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries fed by 550W from solar panels and discharged through a 120A Enerdrive inverter/charger. This was a first generation lithium battery installation from Kimberley.

The system has been a success but lessons were learnt along the way.

Initially, I had a problem with the batteries flattening quickly when the Karavan was at home. This turned out to be a 3A phantom power drain from the large inverter/charger which, according to the original Kimberley manual, could be left on. Leaving this inverter/charger on but not in use would drain the batteries within the monthy recharging cycle initially recommended by Kimberley.

The problem was simply solved by turning the inverter/charger off when not in use.

Once the batteries drain to where their onboard safety circuitry cuts in, they cannot be recharged using the standard charging system. Instead, I had to use the extra charge wire attached to each battery to trickle charge that battery with a ‘dumb’ charger. Intelligent chargers with various charging modes did not activate the emergency charging circuitry in the batteries. Instead, I found the best way to do this was to use an old 12V/1A phone charger to get the battery voltage high enough to deactivate the failsafe circuitry and then finish the charging with a larger battery charger.

I had the batteries go flat once again when I had the Kimberley serviced and the repairer left the inverter/charger turned on.

Kimberley also advised owners to turn down the maximum charging rate outputted by the inverter/charger when connected to 240V from the factory set 80A to 40A.

Kimberley has changed their Lithium battery installation over time and now use larger capacity batteries to reduce the number of batteries wired in parallel. The control circuitry for these batteries is now external and connected to all charging sources so balancing charge/discharge rates between batteries is coordinated. This is important because it prevents a failing cell from pulling down the voltage of the other batteries wired in parallel.

A major factor for me in choosing the lithium battery option for my caravan was the weight saving over the tow hitch.

Modern caravans with all their options and with full water tanks are often pushing the legal limits of their tow vehicles. I put my trip prepared D4 and Kimberley Karavan on a weigh bridge and was amazed to find that I was 600Kg over my legal AGM. I subsequently weighed every piece of recovery gear and other equipment I carried on trips and over time have rationalised it to ensure my rig is now legal.

The weight saving in lithium batteries is significant, especially if the batteries are mounted at the front of the van and therefore contribute directly to weight over the tow hitch.

Paul