2015 Defender 110 - Transfer case, Gear box and Rear Diff failed.

[WombatMarshypoos]

Hi All,
looking for info about the Linkage between the ford gearbox and the transfer case failing.

Mine has, had a really loud knocking noise especially when slowing down. After a huge hassle it is now in being repaired, they have completed that and now say that the transfer case and rear diff are also likely needing repair/replacement because of the damage. Yes, 1 year out of warranty.

I've seen that it's a pretty common fault in the Puma's.

Has anyone made a successful application to Land Rover to cover major faults like this as set out in the ACCC Laws?

To note, I'm a pretty typical defender tosser that has it for looks and likes feeling like the bush tucker man as I drive along a beach once or twice a year so it's done zero hard driving let alone what a defender is meant to be able to tackle.

Cheers for the help/advice.

Sam

[clive22]

Have to worth a go. My puma radiator failed post warranty they gave me the rad for free, I paid for labor.

I like your honesty too re being a defender owner.

[scarry]

If you have no luck with LR,JC on here is the man you need to talk to.

He runs an LR indie workshop,somewhere in Tassy.

Good luck with it all.

[MLD]

Hi All,
looking for info about the Linkage between the ford gearbox and the transfer case failing.

Mine has, had a really loud knocking noise especially when slowing down. After a huge hassle it is now in being repaired, they have completed that and now say that the transfer case and rear diff are also likely needing repair/replacement because of the damage. Yes, 1 year out of warranty.

I've seen that it's a pretty common fault in the Puma's.

Has anyone made a successful application to Land Rover to cover major faults like this as set out in the ACCC Laws?

To note, I'm a pretty typical defender tosser that has it for looks and likes feeling like the bush tucker man as I drive along a beach once or twice a year so it's done zero hard driving let alone what a defender is meant to be able to tackle.

Cheers for the help/advice.

Sam

If i understand your post correct, you are referring to the the spud shaft that connects the gearbox to transfer OR some other part? If you mean the spud shaft, it is a known weak link. Posts about the spud shaft are second only to post asking for recommendations on suspension on this forum. They need regular greasing to minimise spline wear. Personally i think that it is a maintenance issue. Responsibility rests with the owner to properly service their car. No different to greasing UJ's, wheel bearings etc. As a part, it is fit for purpose, subject to maintenance.

You will be pushing a barrow of concrete up a steep hill to get JLR to acknowledge it as a "major fault". I doubt you will get relief under the Australian Consumer Law. If you rely on the consumer guarantees you need to be the first owner and the relief is to replace the part or refund. Are you going to hand back your defender and have the Court adjust the damages for the new v's used status. If you go consequential damages route you will need, by engineering expert evidence, to prove that (i) the spud shaft is not fit for purpose under the ACL; (ii) that damage to the transfer and rear diff is a direct consequence of the failure. Engineering evidence doesn't come cheap. To rely on your local mechanic to write a letter will not be persuasive before the Court. In theory the transfer could be damaged by the failed spud shaft. Long bow to draw to link damage to the rear diff. Lots of parts in between those 2 points. The rear diff is another known premature failure issue because of the lacklustre Q&A at set up.

I wish you good fortune but suspect you will run out of puff (and money) before you budge JLR or persuade the Court that you are right. I also doubt you will champion the ACCC to take on your case. It's not really a cause the ACCC will prosecute on behalf of the wider consumer market. Besides, an ACCC case won't result on money in your pocket. It generally is an undertaking, a recall, public statement of apology, and in important cases, a fine.

[WombatMarshypoos]

I like Spud Shaft, it seems fitting.

I agree that it's a part that needs servicing, which is why I had the car serviced as per the Land Rover servicing schedule.

I also get that correlation in the parts failing doesn't prove causality. But on the other hand given they service the diff, gearbox and transfer case and never found a fault prior to this "spud shaft" failing, it's a good bet it's related. Regardless i would have thought both the diff and the transfer case should last more than 65000 ks of road driving.

I disagree that it's not a major fault though, it has rendered the car undrivable and not fit for purpose. It's defined under the ACCC laws as just that. No reasonable person would buy a new car thats going to be undrivable in less than 5 years.

Anyway we will see what Land Rover come back with, I'll keep it updated in case others have similar dealings and want information.

[101RRS]

They need regular greasing to minimise spline wear. Personally i think that it is a maintenance issue. Responsibility rests with the owner to properly service their car. No different to greasing UJ's, wheel bearings etc. As a part, it is fit for purpose, subject to maintenance.



How do you service a spud shaft? Isn't it inside so the tfr case would have to come out?

[martnH]

There are a few papers suggesting it's the misalignment of the shafts causing significant wear or fretting than the lack of lubrication.

I believe it is true, evident by the fact many pre2015 2.2 and 2.2 defenders that never had lubricant applied to the adapter shaft, have no problems.

[ashtrans]

I also think this issue stems from misalignment which would explain why some cars have a shaft fail every 20K miles and some do 100K, it just depends how the tolerances stack up between the back of the MT82, rear casing and LT230, I strongly suspect it’s also poor alignment which has caused the LT77 and R380 spline wear for years.

Quite hard to prove but not impossible, you would need to look at the drawings and work out the max theoretical run out then take a MT82/230 which gets through shafts frequently, put a DTI on the MT82 main shaft and clock up the run out on the LT230 input gear bearing diameter, I wouldn’t be surprised if many were out of tolerance !

Dave

[scarry]

How do you service a spud shaft? Isn't it inside so the tfr case would have to come out?

Correct,can’t be and isn’t designed to be serviced.

Well it can be if you want to remove transfer case,etc,every so often.

A wonderfull piece of engineering by LR.many were not greased from the factory,and those that were didn’t usually last more than around 80K before they failed.

The Ashcroft set up is better.

[rick130]

Land Rover also cheapened up the LT230 in the last of the Defenders by using a new and cheap, two pinnion centre diff.
The four pinion diff barely coped, how on earth a two pinion diff was meant to survive I have no idea.
An Ashcroft ATB is the logical upgrade/fix there.

[101RRS]

A wonderfull piece of engineering by LR.many were not greased from the factory,and those that were didn’t usually last more than around 80K before they failed.



I cannot speak for the Puma but the old R380/Lt77 - LT230 it was splash lubricated from oil from the transfer case I think - problem was there was no way for the oil to get to the splines - later the sud shaft had holes drilled into it to let the oil in or used an oil slinger. So grease was not used on these.

However with the advent of the D3 the output shaft of the gearbox goes into the transfer case and is all dry - hence greased at the factory but unfortunately sometimes they forgot [bigsad].

[BilboBoggles]

The likelyhood that it's damaged anything else is nearly Zero!, The failure mode for the splined shaft is to lose drive, and that's it! They (assuming it's a dealer) are likely giving you a set of alternate facts... (ie bs)! I have had this happen to me a few times (I've owned 4 defenders from brand new), oh yes your diff is broken and will fail very soon, Lucky under warranty! But Land Rover refused to fix, and they then made us some crap about it being Ok but out of tolerance... That Diff has done nearly 200,000k's since they played that trick.

[BilboBoggles]

I cannot speak for the Puma but the old R380/Lt77 - LT230 it was splash lubricated from oil from the transfer case I think - problem was there was no way for the oil to get to the splines - later the sud shaft had holes drilled into it to let the oil in or used an oil slinger. So grease was not used on these.

However with the advent of the D3 the output shaft of the gearbox goes into the transfer case and is all dry - hence greased at the factory but unfortunately sometimes they forgot [bigsad].


I think it's more than grease... I had my latest PUMA upgraded to a Ashcroft center diff, and changed that shaft at the same time. It was as dry as a bone, but completely unworn, looked like new. And that had done 200,000k's There must be something in that alignment theory.

[WombatMarshypoos]

Fixed.

Ludicrously long winded process taking over three months and involving transfers between land rover dealerships that never arrived needing me to track down my car and transport it myself, lawyers, ombudsman's and a fair bit of stress. But in short and predictably but also bizarrely this ended up being the rear Diff.

Somehow almost all the bolts that attach the crown wheel had sheered off. I genuinely have no idea how this happened, again I'm a city person that drives too and from work. This must have taken a huge amount of force given the sheering strain of bolts. Even more bizarrely the axles are fine both sides, I would have thought they would have failed through strain before the bolts attaching the crown wheel sheer.

The "Spud shaft" that land roved pulled out ( assured me was the cause as it's splines had sheered off and then replaced) in fact looks pristine with zero ear and tear as I have it in my garage.

The transfer case was fine.

Land Rover were in some ways atrocious and disorganised and in other ways they were ok. After arguing with Land Rover Australia that I had land rover road side assistance as per the servicing agreement they towed the vehicle and got me a hire car. Initially they offered 40% of the repair cost for the spud shaft, ~2-3k repair bill all up. Then when it looked like it was going to be the transfer case and diff extravaganza at over 20K repair bill there was radio silence with it always being with the "Warranty assessors". So I then had to talk constantly with the land rover dealership who were repairing it, they eventually and understandably got fed up with not being paid and refused to do any further diagnosis. At the same time I realised I had Extended Warranty insurance, in parallel I pursued this. This insurance is utter junk, they refused to pay for the tow truck or hire car until the repair was approved, they refused to approve the repair until the cause was diagnosed, they refused to pay for any diagnostic fee to identify the cause, and they refused to take the Mechanics report as a diagnosis they wanted photographic evidence. In short this is not a warranty extension it is a pay money and receive diddly squat. This Stayed like this for 2 months with Land rover paying the Hire car the entire time. I consulted Lawyer who said i had a very good case under the ACCC laws and should pursue it against Land Rover and that I also had a good claim against the insurance company (But they would say that as they want the case i guess)and should pursue that but should try the ombudsman first. I took the Insurance company to the Ombudsman, Literally two days after I lodged the claim with the ombudsman I has the insurance company and their Underwriters write to me saying they would sort the claim and then the national claim manager rang me to say they would approve it in full.

The Land Rover was transferred to the Hobart dealership at which point it was "lost in transit" for a couple weeks. It ended up being at a Depot. Land Rover assured me it was safe to drive so I then had to pick it up from a depot and drive it myself to the Land Rover dealership. From there Land rover cancelled my hire car. It then took another month or so to get the diagnosis and repair completed and all costs were covered by the insurance company.

TLDR, Dodgy Landy diff and Dodgy Land Rover Australia.

[Tote]

Fixed.

Ludicrously long winded process taking over three months and involving transfers between land rover dealerships that never arrived needing me to track down my car and transport it myself, lawyers, ombudsman's and a fair bit of stress. But in short and predictably but also bizarrely this ended up being the rear Diff.

Somehow almost all the bolts that attach the crown wheel had sheered off. I genuinely have no idea how this happened, again I'm a city person that drives too and from work. This must have taken a huge amount of force given the sheering strain of bolts. Even more bizarrely the axles are fine both sides, I would have thought they would have failed through strain before the bolts attaching the crown wheel sheer.

The "Spud shaft" that land roved pulled out ( assured me was the cause as it's splines had sheered off and then replaced) in fact looks pristine with zero ear and tear as I have it in my garage.

The transfer case was fine.

Land Rover were in some ways atrocious and disorganised and in other ways they were ok. After arguing with Land Rover Australia that I had land rover road side assistance as per the servicing agreement they towed the vehicle and got me a hire car. Initially they offered 40% of the repair cost for the spud shaft, ~2-3k repair bill all up. Then when it looked like it was going to be the transfer case and diff extravaganza at over 20K repair bill there was radio silence with it always being with the "Warranty assessors". So I then had to talk constantly with the land rover dealership who were repairing it, they eventually and understandably got fed up with not being paid and refused to do any further diagnosis. At the same time I realised I had Extended Warranty insurance, in parallel I pursued this. This insurance is utter junk, they refused to pay for the tow truck or hire car until the repair was approved, they refused to approve the repair until the cause was diagnosed, they refused to pay for any diagnostic fee to identify the cause, and they refused to take the Mechanics report as a diagnosis they wanted photographic evidence. In short this is not a warranty extension it is a pay money and receive diddly squat. This Stayed like this for 2 months with Land rover paying the Hire car the entire time. I consulted Lawyer who said i had a very good case under the ACCC laws and should pursue it against Land Rover and that I also had a good claim against the insurance company (But they would say that as they want the case i guess)and should pursue that but should try the ombudsman first. I took the Insurance company to the Ombudsman, Literally two days after I lodged the claim with the ombudsman I has the insurance company and their Underwriters write to me saying they would sort the claim and then the national claim manager rang me to say they would approve it in full.

The Land Rover was transferred to the Hobart dealership at which point it was "lost in transit" for a couple weeks. It ended up being at a Depot. Land Rover assured me it was safe to drive so I then had to pick it up from a depot and drive it myself to the Land Rover dealership. From there Land rover cancelled my hire car. It then took another month or so to get the diagnosis and repair completed and all costs were covered by the insurance company.

TLDR, Dodgy Landy diff and Dodgy Land Rover Australia.

I had a rear diff that was clunking prior to the installation of a diff lock at 95000KM I suspect that the crown wheel bolts were on their way to failure, Summitt on here had similar symptoms , except his bolts did fail. So the crown wheel failure is another defender "feature" My spud shaft was lubed at the factory as the grease was weeping from the bellhousing when the vehicle arrived. So far it's been OK but I'm anticipating needing to replace it at some point.

Regards,
Tote

[DazzaTD5]

Hi All,


Mine has, had a really loud knocking noise especially when slowing down. After a huge hassle it is now in being repaired, they have completed that and now say that the transfer case and rear diff are also likely needing repair/replacement because of the damage. Yes, 1 year out of warranty.

Sam

*So they have replaced the adaptor shaft between the Ford MT82 gearbox and the Land Rover LT230 transfer case and all is well?
*Now saying... that AFTER they have finished the above the transfer case and diff need work?
*The transfer case COULD have been inspected while it was out.

*all sounds like bull****.
*If its running I would take it to Justin Cooper for an honest assessment of the transfer case and rear diff.
*Not so much the transfer case at what round 100K ? but the rear diff do suffer lots of backlash and bearing failures.
*I generally fit a Ashcroft ATB to the rear diff when I rebuild it.

[DazzaTD5]

Fixed.
but also bizarrely this ended up being the rear Diff.

Somehow almost all the bolts that attach the crown wheel had sheered off. I genuinely have no idea how this happened, again I'm a city person that drives too and from work. This must have taken a huge amount of force given the sheering strain of bolts. Even more bizarrely the axles are fine both sides, I would have thought they would have failed through strain before the bolts attaching the crown wheel sheer.

.

*Yes unfortunately I've had a few rear diffs that came in making a clunk clunk clunk, the broken bolt heads had been spinning round in the carrier.
*I havent seen any axles / drive flanges on a TDCi (2007 on, puma) that didnt have free play wear on the outer spline with fretted material as they are half the hardness they should be.
*Exception to the axle / drive flange wear is the last couple of months of production they finally went to a one piece axle and drive flange.

[ashtrans]

sounds like total incompetence by the initial dealer by assuming it was the coupling shaft, all they had to do was to see if it drove in diff lock or not. no drive = coupling shaft, drive in diff locker = axle problem.

this test would of taken less than one minute and would of saved months of stress.

sheared crown wheel bolts are a common failure of the post 2002 rear diffs.

the lesson here is take your car to a trusted independent if it needs work !

Dave

[DiscoMick]

Our Defender is listed with British Offroad to have a minor transfer case oil leak fixed next time and while underneath they recommend doing this driveshaft work you mentioned above, as the gearshift is a bit clunky, indicating wear.