Towing and braking with a 2 tonne load

[Didge]

Hi guys,

I'm potentially about to buy a boat and trailer with a total load of about 1800kg. Whilst I've previously used a car trailer to tow a Holden Barina with a total load of approx the same 1800kg, the towing was no problem and on that occasion I chose a very flat route home due to the dodgy braking in my old 110. That hired trailer had the hydraulic over ride brakes.

Given that I'm likely to be towing this boat between Southern end of Sydney and Port Macquarie (mid north coast of NSW) my question is related to other peoples experiences with braking using the over ride braked trailers and your poorly braking older defenders - how have you found the experience? Good, scary or dangerous?

I can't remember the actual motion and feeling of towing that size load but I expect the over ride brakes will give a little push when you hit the brakes and, given I'm flat out locking the wheels when braking on gravel, my concern is whether the over ride mechanism will actually come into effect before the trailer pushes me into any other obstacle. I don't know how hard I need to brake before the trailer brakes actually work.

Thanks in advance.
cheers Gerald

[Phil B]

Have you considered electric brakes or electric over hydraulic?
They take all the trailer braking load off the tow vehicle and are really good with adjustable brake force sensitivity etc

[W&KO]

Have you considered getting you defender brakes working properly....being in NSW don’t you brakes get tested annually?

Override hydraulic are OK, override cable are a pain although being on a boat trailer I’m guessing you’ll have override hydraulic.

[shack]

Is the "110" a defender?

If so the brakes on them are quite good when stock....if everything is working.

If it's older then they probably are lacking.

[Didge]

Have you considered electric brakes or electric over hydraulic?
They take all the trailer braking load off the tow vehicle and are really good with adjustable brake force sensitivity etc
Hi Phil, yes I've had a check with the local trailer guy who will do all sorts of brake installations and electric brakes are up around the $3K mark. He can do them but strongly recommended override disc brakes rather than electric. It currently has a hydraulic actuator on it but the condition looks rather dodgy.
cheers gerald

[Didge]

Have you considered electric brakes or electric over hydraulic?
They take all the trailer braking load off the tow vehicle and are really good with adjustable brake force sensitivity etc
Hi Phil, yes I've had a check with the local trailer guy who will do all sorts of brake installations and electric brakes are up around the $3K mark. He can do them but strongly recommended override disc brakes rather than electric. It currently has a hydraulic actuator on it but the condition looks rather dodgy.
cheers gerald

[Didge]

Is the "110" a defender?

If so the brakes on them are quite good when stock....if everything is working.

If it's older then they probably are lacking.

Hi Shack, yes it's a 95 model 300tdi defender and from what I've heard from lots of people is that they all have poor brakes. I've changed everything except the actual brake lines and calipers. I think a lack of vacuum is the main problem and I've had new vacuum pumps that have made zero difference. New booster, new seal kits, etc in master cylinder, new pistons and seals in calipers. Checked the vacuum line and one way valve and they're still very poor. Cannot lock the wheels on the blacktop over 60kmh.
cheers Gerald

[Didge]

Have you considered getting you defender brakes working properly....being in NSW don’t you brakes get tested annually?

Override hydraulic are OK, override cable are a pain although being on a boat trailer I’m guessing you’ll have override hydraulic.

Hi W&KO,

Please have a look at my reply to Shack regarding what I've done to the brakes. They pass the test but I suspect only just. I've been told by the trailer guy to go with the cable override but to ensure they are always adjusted properly, which due to insurance implications, I'm considering as an annual job for him and cost for me. If I adjust them, then I'm responsible whereas if the "expert" does it, then he's responsible. I do the brakes on the car though :) that could be the problem.
cheers Gerald

[W&KO]

Hi W&KO,

Please have a look at my reply to Shack regarding what I've done to the brakes. They pass the test but I suspect only just. I've been told by the trailer guy to go with the cable override but to ensure they are always adjusted properly, which due to insurance implications, I'm considering as an annual job for him and cost for me. If I adjust them, then I'm responsible whereas if the "expert" does it, then he's responsible. I do the brakes on the car though :) that could be the problem.
cheers Gerald

No worries......didn’t think cable override would have been first selection for a boat trailer. I’ve never owned a boat trailer big enough to have brakes.

[shack]

Hi Shack, yes it's a 95 model 300tdi defender and from what I've heard from lots of people is that they all have poor brakes. I've changed everything except the actual brake lines and calipers. I think a lack of vacuum is the main problem and I've had new vacuum pumps that have made zero difference. New booster, new seal kits, etc in master cylinder, new pistons and seals in calipers. Checked the vacuum line and one way valve and they're still very poor. Cannot lock the wheels on the blacktop over 60kmh.
cheers GeraldI've got two 130 300 tdi defenders, the brakes are good, I'd strongly suggest you test what vacuum the pump is making, and then what brand of pads. When the pump is faulty they are awful.

[Didge]

No worries......didn’t think cable override would have been first selection for a boat trailer. I’ve never owned a boat trailer big enough to have brakes.
My previous boats have all been small but this one weighs quite a bit. I do think I need the car brakes checked though and it may well be time to get an expert in for an assessment.
cheers Gerald

[Didge]

I've got two 130 300 tdi defenders, the brakes are good, I'd strongly suggest you test what vacuum the pump is making, and then what brand of pads. When the pump is faulty they are awful.

Hi Shack, I think you're right- the vacuum is woeful. People pulling in front of me and sudden braking are always a bit of a scary experience because it's a bit like trying to stop a train. One young (and I might say stupid) Deliveroo scooter rider stopped on a button just as lights turned orange and I was accelerating behind him. Normally, another car would've followed me through the lights and this guy was so lucky we wasn't roadkill.
cheers Gerald

[shack]

Hi Shack, I think you're right- the vacuum is woeful. People pulling in front of me and sudden braking are always a bit of a scary experience because it's a bit like trying to stop a train. One young (and I might say stupid) Deliveroo scooter rider stopped on a button just as lights turned orange and I was accelerating behind him. Normally, another car would've followed me through the lights and this guy was so lucky we wasn't roadkill.
cheers GeraldDo you travel on dirt tracks? If so can you easily lock up the wheels when braking? You should be able too without much drama.

Cheers
James

[Bazzle218]

I have a 1998, 300 tdi 130. It stops on a dime. Have you checked your wheel bearings as an out of adjustment (Loose) will effect your brakes. Not much difference between adjusted and loose. Baz

[Didge]

No worries......didn’t think cable override would have been first selection for a boat trailer. I’ve never owned a boat trailer big enough to have brakes.
G'day - now the trailer guy has opted for the hydraulic override system - all up now costing around $1400 odd.
cheers Gerald

[Didge]

I have a 1998, 300 tdi 130. It stops on a dime. Have you checked your wheel bearings as an out of adjustment (Loose) will effect your brakes. Not much difference between adjusted and loose. Baz
Hi Baz, thanks for the advice but yes wheel bearings are all good - I even went to the trouble of getting a small torque wrench to do them properly - they're only nipped up lightly really.
cheers Gerald
As I said earlier, I think I'll get it seen to by professionals because the vacuum is definitely woeful and she pulls up like an oil tanker.

[Didge]

I've got two 130 300 tdi defenders, the brakes are good, I'd strongly suggest you test what vacuum the pump is making, and then what brand of pads. When the pump is faulty they are awful.
Yes shack, I'm definitely going to take your advice on that one - these have never been good.
cheers Gerald

[Slunnie]

G'day - now the trailer guy has opted for the hydraulic override system - all up now costing around $1400 odd.
cheers Gerald

Hey what's the advantage of the hydraulic system? Is that because it's better for submersed applications?

[Didge]

Hey what's the advantage of the hydraulic system? Is that because it's better for submersed applications?
Good question, no idea really - maybe it costs more so its better for him. My guess would be the cables could stretch a bit and be harder to adjust.

[Didge]

Do you travel on dirt tracks? If so can you easily lock up the wheels when braking? You should be able too without much drama.

Cheers
James

Hi James, forgot to reply to your question about dirt roads - I haven't done much 4wdriving of late but hope to soon again but yes, on wet bitumen at slow speed (say 50kmh) I can lock them if I stop on the pedal and on dirt roads yes, but no chance when driving at speed on suburban roads.
cheers gerald

[BilboBoggles]

The biggest difference I made to my braking was throwing out the brake pads and replacing with OEM, in my case Ferodo. My 110 had really crappy brakes, hard pedal when braking, and not much braking. The previous owner had upgraded the suspension and brakes, with slotted rotors, and what I assume were some expensive aftermarket pads. Probably great on a race track, but they seemed to be as hard as nails.

Any way a new set of ferodo pads seems to have made a big difference.

Regarding the towing - I actually prefer the override brakes. I regularly tow horses - and my big float is 1.5T empty, up to 3000kg+ loaded. It's got electric brakes. Your experience of the brakes will come down to the controller. Some are proportional, and will sense how much your vehicle is retarding and apply trailer brakes proportionally. Those are the best type - BUT do you see the problem? To get the whole vehicle to retard you have to apply your brakes with no assistance from the trailer. Then once you have slowed down your 6000kg vehicle, then the trailer brakes come in. So Proportional Electric brakes might as well not be there for most initial brake applications. If you have crap brakes, this is really scary. (The one saving grace of electric brakes is that you can manually apply them, whcih will help in an emergency, for example braking on a down hill gravel road, where your wheels lock up and cannot slow the vehicle enough to trigger the electric brakes - you can jam them on and stop.

Proportional hydraulic brakes which are self contained on the trailer are only legal here in Australia for trailers up to 2000kgs. BUT These work by having a master cylinder mounted in the coupling. As you brake your vehicle, the weight of the trailer presses on the master cylinder and applies the trailer brakes. The most weight your vehicle will feel will depend on how well the brakes are working, if well it may only be a few kgs. The one disadvantage is that there is travel in the coupling, so when you do stop this unloads and you get a small shuffle in the trailer. No big deal, but for some this is a deal buster. BUT for vehicles with crappy brakes if the hydraulics are good, then this type of braking is the safest. Although you still have a potential issue of stopping on a downhil gravel track.

The best braking system would be a proper proportional system that sensed how much pedal pressure you applied, and applied the electric brakes proportionally, perhaps with some sort of load sensing on the coupling to work out if it needed to increase the gain to prevent overrun load.

Sorry bit of a long rant there - but I've spent the best part of every weekend for the last 5 years towing 3T with a variety of 110s some with ABS and some without.

[roverrescue]

Before dropping $1400 on over ride hydraulic
Could I suggest you run the rig over a weigh bridge with full trip load (Syd-port)

Boat & trailer manufacturers make caravan manufacturers look like law abiding QUeens Councils when it comes to stated “load capacities”

An 1800kg rig could easily weight 2000kg with fuel / water gear onboard

If your Gross trailer weight - ie what you are dragging down the road is over 2T
You need electric over hydraulic brakes with a breakaway system

Very very common on boat rigs
Not difficult to install
Much better braking performance

The way things are going with caravans being weighed an measured there is no way I would chance an overweight rig diving perhaps the busiest/ most enforced road in Australia ?


If under 2T fully rigged
Standard over ride hydraulics on the front axle will keep you legal - for less $ than electric/hydraulic
But a good upgrade throw a set of calipers on the back axle too.



Now the big question
How long do you plan on keeping the boat?
If only a short term throw any stoppers on
If it’s a longer time plan I’d stump up for full stainless braided lines / bronzed rotors / stainless calipers

Else you will be spending another grand in a few years replacing a bunch of non operating rusty junk!

Steve

[Didge]

The biggest difference I made to my braking was throwing out the brake pads and replacing with OEM, in my case Ferodo. My 110 had really crappy brakes, hard pedal when braking, and not much braking. The previous owner had upgraded the suspension and brakes, with slotted rotors, and what I assume were some expensive aftermarket pads. Probably great on a race track, but they seemed to be as hard as nails.

Any way a new set of ferodo pads seems to have made a big difference.

.........- but I've spent the best part of every weekend for the last 5 years towing 3T with a variety of 110s some with ABS and some without.

Thanks for the comprehensive explanation Bilbo. I've already gone with the hydraulic brakes that has a separate master cylinder not inside the coupling - that appeared to be the sort that was originally on the trailer but had seized many years ago.
Certainly won't be towing on any gravel roads so that's not a concern but thanks for pointing it out. Yes, getting the old 110 to slow abruptly enough to activate the coupling was my main concern. Have towed the boat now with a 2003 3 litre Patrol and it was a doddle - barely felt the trailer under braking - as you say, just a soft nudge as it came into action. Negotiating small roundabouts with an 8.5m trailer is interesting though; need to use both lanes and act like king of the road.
cheers Gerald

[Didge]

Hi Steve, I put answers and comments in red to make it easier for both of us

Before dropping $1400 on over ride hydraulic already done mate, was quoted $3K for electric and it sort of blew the budget
Could I suggest you run the rig over a weigh bridge with full trip load (Syd-port) put the trailer on the weighbridge and it came in at 540kg

Boat & trailer manufacturers make caravan manufacturers look like law abiding QUeens Councils when it comes to stated “load capacities”

An 1800kg rig could easily weight 2000kg with fuel / water gear onboard boat apparently weighs in at 862kg plus 217kg for the motor totalling 1619kg plus say another 200kg for fuel, water etc so just a touch over 1.8T - rest of any gear will ride in the car or another car

If your Gross trailer weight - ie what you are dragging down the road is over 2T
You need electric over hydraulic brakes with a breakaway system

Very very common on boat rigs
Not difficult to install
Much better braking performance

The way things are going with caravans being weighed an measured there is no way I would chance an overweight rig diving perhaps the busiest/ most enforced road in Australia ? I am curious as to exactly how much the whole rig weighs and will be collecting it in a fortnight to 3 weeks and will, as long asI remember, take it to the weighbridge for an official weighing.


If under 2T fully rigged
Standard over ride hydraulics on the front axle will keep you legal - for less $ than electric/hydraulic that's what I've got
But a good upgrade throw a set of calipers on the back axle too. yes, i was thinking along those lines as well - thanks for the good advice on all points.



Now the big question
How long do you plan on keeping the boat? good question - maybe 10 years??
If only a short term throw any stoppers on
If it’s a longer time plan I’d stump up for full stainless braided lines yep, got them/ bronzed rotors / stainless calipers got gal on both rotors and calipers

Else you will be spending another grand in a few years replacing a bunch of non operating rusty junk! I'll be caring for them quite well, trust me- i'm pretty good at washing these things down. Yes, I know it's bloody hard to get salt out but with discs it shouldn't be too much of an issue

Steve

[Didge]

Well folks, I thank you sincerely for all your advice. W&KO, many times at rego check the mechanics wouldn't even take it for a drive but when they did, it still somehow passed.
Again, i replaced the booster, as advised by this forum, then tend to develop cracks at the bolts that hold the master cylinder on and mine had done that and also the one way check valve failed. I couldn't buy one of those for love or money so left it in, replaced the entire vacuum line and installed a straight in line one way valve and hey presto, I now have power assisted brakes for the first time in 10 years - I'm like a kid with a new bike - woohoo!
And I now feel far more comfortable at the thought of towing this 2t load - many thanks to all again.
cheers Gerald