A 737/500 down in Indonesia ?

[bob10]

Contact lost.

Search and rescue operation in Indonesia after contact was lost with Boeing plane (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/search-and-rescue-operation-in-indonesia-after-contact-was-lost-with-boeing-plane/ar-BB1cBqhQ?ocid=msedgntp)

[travelrover]

Contact lost.

Search and rescue operation in Indonesia after contact was lost with Boeing plane (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/search-and-rescue-operation-in-indonesia-after-contact-was-lost-with-boeing-plane/ar-BB1cBqhQ?ocid=msedgntp)

No squark or mayday.. must have been a catastrophic failure...

[travelrover]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210109/7433dd313eefaae9228721cbe7252eca.jpg

[tc_s1]

Or perhaps a malicious event causing one.
No squark or mayday.. must have been a catastrophic failure...

[bob10]

Interesting I can't find any more in the media on this.

[Eevo]

prob cause its sunday morning

[bob10]

Unfortunately, there is.

A desperate search is underway after a budget flight with 62 people on board plummeted at high speed into the ocean north of Jakarta, the Indonesian capital.
The Sriwijaya Air plane is thought to have suddenly plunged 3000m in less than a minute, according to flight tracking website Flightradar24.com.
Witnesses reportedly saw the airliner nose dive into the ocean just four minutes after it took off in rainy weather from Soekarno-Hatta airport.
The Boeing 737-500 disappeared from radar after the pilot contacted air traffic control to ascend to an altitude of 29,000 feet (9000m), Indonesia’s transport minister Budi Karya Sumadi said.









Plane carrying 62 plummets at high speed into the ocean (thenewdaily.com.au) (https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/world/2021/01/10/indonesia-sriwijaya-air-crash/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Sunday%20Best%20-%2020210110)

[travelrover]

Interesting I can't find any more in the media on this.

Try BBC. They did a story on the 8am news (AEST)

[JDNSW]

I had a look at the satellite weather pictures for the area about that time, and there was a significant amount of cumulonimbus in the area. This suggests there may have been severe turbulence, which could have led to either loss of control or structural failure. This does not, of course mean that there were not other contributing factors such as pre-existing structural weaknesses, maintenance shortcomings, or pilot capability gaps.

Certainly the high vertical speed and lack of communication strongly suggest something catastrophic.

[Hugh Jars]

That trace doesn’t really tell much, because most of the data is at, or near zero prior to the event.
Looking purely at speed data (presumably groundspeed), most of it falls within normal flight parameters, with exception of the spike just prior to descent.
Both parameters spike upwards sharply. To me, that’s possibly due to entering an active thunderstorm. If so, it looks like when encountering significant convective activity (up), old mate may have countered with forward elevator, causing the high speed event.
Who knows?

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/vt_nUdQQqxI

[Eevo]

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/137046602_2745046855733421_6725256528684325687_n.p ng?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=F42Gh5lDLN8AX_7ogcy&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=322e22c0dcc57db975a9e7a29abcd955&oe=6021F2E0

[Eevo]

looks like it got near stall speed about 4000feet, then suddenly increased speed. in a stall until 4000 then nose down?

[travelrover]

And all over in 20 seconds!

[Eevo]

looks like it got near stall speed about 4000feet, then suddenly increased speed. in a stall until 4000 then nose down?

never mind, its ground speed, not airspeed.

[Eevo]

wonder when the last time this plane due, with covid and all. blocked pitot tube?

[Hugh Jars]

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/137046602_2745046855733421_6725256528684325687_n.p ng?_nc_cat=110&ccb=2&_nc_sid=ae9488&_nc_ohc=F42Gh5lDLN8AX_7ogcy&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=322e22c0dcc57db975a9e7a29abcd955&oe=6021F2E0

Yes, it’s looking more like an airspeed unreliable event, leading to a stall.
I understand the DFDR and CVR have been retrieved.

[JDNSW]

Yes, it’s looking more like an airspeed unreliable event, leading to a stall.
I understand the DFDR and CVR have been retrieved.

Latest I have heard is that they have been located and the navy is saying they will be easily retrieved.

[W&KO]

Latest I have heard is that they have been located and the navy is saying they will be easily retrieved.

Think I read water depth is less than 20m which should make retrieval easy ish

[Eevo]

Think I read water depth is less than 20m which should make retrieval easy ish

hopefully. im worried its hit with such speed, its buried in the mud/sand below 20m

[JDNSW]

Heard on the radio while going to pick up my mail that the fuselage has been located. And yes, the water depth is less than 20m. I'm not sure what the bottom is, but it could be pretty muddy.

This water depth is plenty to have slowed it to very low speed by the time it hit the bottom - nearly all the damage will be from impact with the water, and it won't be all that deeply buried, if at all (depends on whether it is mud or sand).

[Old Farang]

Flight data from crashed airliner in 'good condition'Flight data from crashed airliner in 'good condition' (bangkokpost.com) (https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/2051607/flight-data-from-crashed-airliner-in-good-condition)

JAKARTA: Indonesian investigators have successfully downloaded information from the flight data recorder (FDR) of the Sriwijaya Air jet that crashed into the sea last week, its transport safety agency said on Friday.


The recorder "has 330 parameters and all are in good conditions," the National Transportation Safety Committee (KNKT) said in a statement, referring to the available data.

[Tins]

Yes, it’s looking more like an airspeed unreliable event, leading to a stall.
I understand the DFDR and CVR have been retrieved.

Astonishing to hear uninformed people talking of the MCAS system being at fault, when the 737-500 isn't fitted with MCAS.

Hugh, unreliable airspeed indications are caused mostly by failure in the pitot static systems? Is that correct?

[Eevo]

Astonishing to hear uninformed people talking of the MCAS system being at fault, when the 737-500 isn't fitted with MCAS.

Hugh, unreliable airspeed indications are caused mostly by failure in the pitot static systems? Is that correct?



failure or maybe the cover was left on.

[Tins]

failure or maybe the cover was left on.

Well, it wouldn't have been icing I guess, but insects? All that means ( speculative at this time of course ) is that the PFI wasn't carried out properly, which is of course crew error. I always hope that this isn't the case, but it so often is.

[Eevo]

Well, it wouldn't have been icing I guess, but insects? All that means ( speculative at this time of course ) is that the PFI wasn't carried out properly, which is of course crew error. I always hope that this isn't the case, but it so often is.
icing unlikely at the attitude they were at,
ive read insects can nest in under ten min, but pretty rare.

[JDNSW]

Even rarer would be for it to happen to both pitot tubes. Complete speculation, but wasn't there some sort of issue with the tailplane trim jack on early 737s?

[Eevo]

Even rarer would be for it to happen to both pitot tubes. Complete speculation, but wasn't there some sort of issue with the tailplane trim jack on early 737s?

there was, but wasnt that fixed 20 years ago?

[superquag]

there was, but wasnt that fixed 20 years ago?

Horrible feeling IF this was somehow mis ed over the decades.... Unlikely, but wait till it's ruled out, To be Sure...x2...

I've got a pet theory, but again, discretion till more info comes out. Finding the CVR intact would be a Good Thing.

[101RRS]

I've got a pet theory, but again, discretion till more info comes out.

Why - this is a forum of peoples ideas - not necessarily facts. This place is not a formal investigation - if we get it wrong on AULRO does it matter.

[Old Farang]

Horrible feeling IF this was somehow mis ed over the decades.... Unlikely, but wait till it's ruled out, To be Sure...x2...

I've got a pet theory, but again, discretion till more info comes out. Finding the CVR intact would be a Good Thing.

To buy an aircraft from the US it has to have an export certificate of airworthiness from the FAA. This particular B 737 was operated by a couple of airlines in the US before being sold to Indonesia. The jack screw fault was a well known fault subject to an FAA AD (airworthiness directive), so for sure would have been rectified.

I also have a "pet" theory but do not like to speculate. However, I would be most interested to find out the state of the aft pressure bulkhead.

[101RRS]

The other interesting thing is that this aircraft was not maintained by the airline but by Garuda. Now Indonesian airlines have a woeful reputation and as a result Indonesian airlines were banned from flying to many parts of the world, in particular the EU, this included the Indonesian International Airline of Garuda - as a result Garuda lifted their game and now have a good reputation for the operation, maintenance and record keeping of their aircraft - maybe not the best reputation but of a good standard.

So it will be interesting if this crash was a result of poor maintenance and if it is, what will be the impact on Garuda's operations and reputation.

[Hugh Jars]

Astonishing to hear uninformed people talking of the MCAS system being at fault, when the 737-500 isn't fitted with MCAS.

Hugh, unreliable airspeed indications are caused mostly by failure in the pitot static systems? Is that correct?

Tins, yes, generally that is the case. However, there can be corruption/interruption of data signals to the instruments, as the pneumatic air data is processed and sent to the ADIRU's, which provide airspeed and static data to many aircraft systems (including flight instruments). Too much to go into here.

An example of how far reaching corrupt or interrupted pitot-static information can be sent, I have once experienced both degraded EEC (Electronic Engine Controls) and an airspeed disagree message leading to a rejected takeoff. It took a lot of troubleshooting for the engineers to trace the fault to one of the ADIRU's. BUT - all pitot and static systems were working perfectly, it was just the data was crap.

Remember the MAX had a problem with a faulty alpha vane leading to activation of the MCAS. These also input data to the ADIRU's.

So in the absence of DFDR and CVR data, it really could be anything. Having said that, if it was an instrument malfunction, it doesn't really matter what caused the problem, the crew's first stepping off point is the AIRSPEED UNRELIABLE memory items. You're going back to basics: disconnecting the automatics and setting a known attitude and thrust setting and assessing performance. Then you can usually work out which side is malfunctioning and take it from there.

Nevertheless, a catastrophic failure of a flight control or critical system may also be a cause.

Flight into an active storm cell, leading to loss of control and/or structural failure is possible...

[Hugh Jars]

Someone mentioned a blocked pitot or a cover being left on. I don'y know about other countries, but speaking of covers - the first thing I check when taking an aircraft over is that the flight readiness check has been signed by the engineer (he's certifying the covers, fan straps, gear lock pins etc, have been removed and stowed). The second check is the walk-around.

If you miss that, you would normally get an Airspeed Disagree message during the takeoff. There's also an airspeed check at 80 knots. A pitot cover would most likely give either, or both of these errors.

Mud wasps are a huge problem, especially Brisbane. Our engineers install and remove the covers even on a 35 min turnaround. A problem with wasps might not be apparent until after airborne. In any instance, if the faulty system isn't easily recognised - the AIRSPEED UNRELIABLE checklist is your friend.

[JDNSW]

.......
Mud wasps are a huge problem, especially Brisbane. Our engineers install and remove the covers even on a 35 min turnaround. A problem with wasps might not be apparent until after airborne. In any instance, if the faulty system isn't easily recognised - the AIRSPEED UNRELIABLE checklist is your friend.

As I have mentioed in another thread, I have experienced mudwasps with my Auster - at Redcliff, not Brisbane, but not that far away. That was due to an automatic pitot cover being held off by the wind!

[superquag]

Why - this is a forum of peoples ideas - not necessarily facts. This place is not a formal investigation - if we get it wrong on AULRO does it matter.

Oh well, if you insist... Actually it's more of a comment on the way flying / Piloting has evolved, from 'Flying' the aircraft, to....'Managing' the Systems. Feet on the Footrests & Fingers feeling joystick are first to sense impending doom. Pilot "feeels" connected, whereas changing heading by twiddling a knob...and 'commanding' your Auto-Pilot COMPUTER to sort out bank angle/attitude/rudder/power balance... leaves you at arms length, metaphorically and literally. That shrt time delay in noticing...and getting a grip on things... can make the difference between a fright and a....

Basically, too many computer literate nerds displacing those with ability, gift, interest & passion to.... FLY

My $2.00 worth

[Eevo]

Oh well, if you insist... Actually it's more of a comment on the way flying / Piloting has evolved, from 'Flying' the aircraft, to....'Managing' the Systems. Feet on the Footrests & Fingers feeling joystick are first to sense impending doom. Pilot "feeels" connected, whereas changing heading by twiddling a knob...and 'commanding' your Auto-Pilot COMPUTER to sort out bank angle/attitude/rudder/power balance... leaves you at arms length, metaphorically and literally. That shrt time delay in noticing...and getting a grip on things... can make the difference between a fright and a....

Basically, too many computer literate nerds displacing those with ability, gift, interest & passion to.... FLY

My $2.00 worth


a few years ago i gave a lecture to pilots in training about the last reliable part of the airplane. what was it on? the pilot. human error is still the leading cause of aircraft incidents and accidents.

[Fourgearsticks]

As I have mentioed in another thread, I have experienced mudwasps with my Auster - at Redcliff, not Brisbane, but not that far away. That was due to an automatic pitot cover being held off by the wind!
Who uses the airspeed indicator in an Auster? [biggrin]

[Tins]

Who uses the airspeed indicator in an Auster? [biggrin]

Is it one of those funny 'strips' that are attached to the wing? I first saw that on a DH60. Reckon the Auster is more modern than that. Could be wrong.

[superquag]

Nah, it's the leaky LH headset cup.... letting in wind noise.

(mainly 'cos you picked up the plastic sunnies... thick arms spoil any sealing around the ears...)

[Tins]

Oh well, if you insist... Actually it's more of a comment on the way flying / Piloting has evolved, from 'Flying' the aircraft, to....'Managing' the Systems. Feet on the Footrests & Fingers feeling joystick are first to sense impending doom. Pilot "feeels" connected, whereas changing heading by twiddling a knob...and 'commanding' your Auto-Pilot COMPUTER to sort out bank angle/attitude/rudder/power balance... leaves you at arms length, metaphorically and literally. That shrt time delay in noticing...and getting a grip on things... can make the difference between a fright and a....

Basically, too many computer literate nerds displacing those with ability, gift, interest & passion to.... FLY

My $2.00 worth

What the old guys call 'seat of your pants' flying.

[JDNSW]

Is it one of those funny 'strips' that are attached to the wing? I first saw that on a DH60. Reckon the Auster is more modern than that. Could be wrong.

Well, my Auster had a perfectly conventional pitot tube and ASI, with a second tube below the pitot with a pointed plug on the end of it and small holes in the side to provide a static source. Except for this one time with the wasps, the only issues I ever had with the Auster were the occasion when all the fluid leaked out of the compass, and when one of the landing gear bungees broke. But I only had it for a couple of years, then traded it on a Cessna 180 when I moved to PNG.

[Tins]

Well, my Auster had a perfectly conventional pitot tube and ASI, with a second tube below the pitot with a pointed plug on the end of it and small holes in the side to provide a static source.
So, it WAS more modern. Thought so....[bigwhistle]


Except for this one time with the wasps, the only issues I ever had with the Auster were the occasion when all the fluid leaked out of the compass,

Is that like blinker fluid?[bigsmile1] Just kidding.


and when one of the landing gear bungees broke. But I only had it for a couple of years, then traded it on a Cessna 180 when I moved to PNG.

Only ever flew one Cessna, a 150 Aerobat. Fun little thing, but for some reason I preferred the low wing of the Pipers.

[JDNSW]

.....

Only ever flew one Cessna, a 150 Aerobat. Fun little thing, but for some reason I preferred the low wing of the Pipers.

I have even done a cross country flight from Lilydale to Dubbo and back in a 150 - on the return trip the wind was so strong that I had to land and refuel twice!

The 180 was a bit different though - apart from a markedly higher cruise speed, it was fun being able to climb out of the circuit area (1500'AGL) by the end of the strip on quite modest airfields (pilot only at least).

[travelrover]

Indonesian diver says Sriwijaya plane search almost impossible with jet obliterated, SE Asia News & Top Stories - The Straits Times (https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/indonesian-diver-says-sriwijaya-plane-search-almost-impossible-with-jet-obliterated?utm_campaign=stfb&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0l4yB8cUsATgBt-mXnVI2zw_GDprmszASu_aKaNzonHsSymiG-FRrp2Jc)

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/fbLT-NeBstg

[Hugh Jars]

That was a pretty good description of the system and non-normals. What he said was right about downgrading or removing the automation, especially if unsure of what the problem might be...