Tow weights and ball weights

[Flotsam]

I am a new member and need to know tow specs in Australia for Land Rovers.

We wish to tow a triple horse float and the tow weight max would be 3500kg with a max towball download of 350kg. We hope to get a Defender with $15k max spending.

All Hayman Reese towballs I have seen on LR's have had a max towball download 150kg? I had a similar suggestion to this beng the limit from my introduction thread earlier today, so I thought this would be the best forum to get more information.

This seems to be a very hard figure to find for any vehicle - LR or not - we have recently had Landcruiser 60 series, 80 series and Prado toyota's all with 250kg towball downweight specs printed on the towbar, but I have never been sure as to the Vehicle or Australian specifications.

Any ideas where I can get more info required for LR's, especially Defender models?

Greg

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Hi Flotsom and welcome to the Forum,,

This is a lot of weight and I think the second question about 3500kg tows recently.

While I cant help you with specifics,, please hang on,,

or you could try a quick search:D

[p38arover]

Edd (George130) and I replied to this topic earlier but I'm blowed if I can find what's happened to our replies.


Ahh, found them: http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php't=28352

Ron

[p38arover]

Any ideas where I can get more info required for LR's, especially Defender models?

You may have to ask LR Customer Service (or a dealer). Perhaps in a brochure.

The details I provided earlier were from the owner's handbook.

Ron

[p38arover]

we have recently had Landcruiser 60 series, 80 series and Prado toyota's all with 250kg towball downweight specs printed on the towbar, but I have never been sure as to the Vehicle or Australian specifications.

That's a heck of a lot of towball weight. To carry that right at the rear of the vehicle would either make it sit right down at the back or require very heavy springs that would probably give very rough unladen ride. That's equivalent to 2-1/2 heavy men standing on the towbar.

I wonder if that is the max load for the gooseneck to avoid bending?

Ron

[DeeJay]

I just went through all this (to a lesser degree as for weights) for my caravan and the expert opinion is to have 10% of the gross weight as the drawbar download but to pare it back to 5% over 250 kg, so you would need around 300kg download, not 350.
Regards,
David

[101RRS]

The tow bar normally has a tow ball limit stamped on it and I believe Landrover handbooks (well at least some do) also have a vehicle design max tow ball weight - would be the least of the two eg - a disco 1 hayman reese towbar has a limit of 120kg and I think the vehicle design limit is either 120 or 150kg but not sure as I no longer have the car.

Gazzz

[Flotsam]

Thanks for the replies - I will check with the local LR dealer and with Haymand Reese - hoping the later LR's have vehicle specs to allow up to 350 kg.

Greg

[Flotsam]

A check with Hayman Reese produced some amazing stats. I called their technical department and they sent me the manufacturers specs for virtually for all vehicles.

Further analysis of this pdf document showed that no Defender, what ever model, has a manufacturers specification towball/drawbar down weight max of greater than 150kgs - so in reality the real tow weight limit of all Defenders is 1500kg not 3500kgs.

This is using the formula of 10% of the gross trailed mass as the drawbar download - this was provided in an earlier reply to my initial email and also used by many Manufacturers in their specs as stated regularly throughout the pdf doc provided by Hayman Reese - ie. towball/drawbar downweight limits of 150kg mean breaked tow limit of 1500kg?

Hayman Reese technical confirmed on the phone that if I wanted to tow a triple horse float - loaded weight with 3 average horses of at least 2700kgs - no Defender would meet this requirement - but a Disco instead?????

The Disco series 11 from 98-2005 show drawbar download of 250kg and series 3 2004 onwards a drawload of 350kgs in the manufacturers specs.

Worse still were the stats for Ford f100, 150 and Bronco - according to manufacturers specs they have a max breaked tow weight of 1700 to 1800 kgs - not really legal for your normal double horse float plus horses and gear????

Seems like most people towing heavy boats, caravans and horses in Australia are breaking the law - makes one a little wary if insurance co's decide to give you a hard time in the case of an accident.

I have attached the pdf.

Greg

[JDNSW]

A check with Hayman Reese produced some amazing stats. I called their technical department and they sent me the manufacturers specs for virtually for all vehicles.

Further analysis of this pdf document showed that no Defender, what ever model, has a manufacturers specification towball/drawbar down weight max of greater than 150kgs - so in reality the real tow weight limit of all Defenders is 1500kg not 3500kgs.

This is using the formula of 10% of the gross trailed mass as the drawbar download - this was provided in an earlier reply to my initial email and also used by many Manufacturers in their specs as stated regularly throughout the pdf doc provided by Hayman Reese - ie. towball/drawbar downweight limits of 150kg mean breaked tow limit of 1500kg?

Hayman Reese technical confirmed on the phone that if I wanted to tow a triple horse float - loaded weight with 3 average horses of at least 2700kgs - no Defender would meet this requirement - but a Disco instead?????

The Disco series 11 from 98-2005 show drawbar download of 250kg and series 3 2004 onwards a drawload of 350kgs in the manufacturers specs.

Worse still were the stats for Ford f100, 150 and Bronco - according to manufacturers specs they have a max breaked tow weight of 1700 to 1800 kgs - not really legal for your normal double horse float plus horses and gear????

Seems like most people towing heavy boats, caravans and horses in Australia are breaking the law - makes one a little wary if insurance co's decide to give you a hard time in the case of an accident.

I have attached the pdf.

Greg

Your conclusion that the towball weight limits the maximum trailer weight assumes that the 10% is a legal requirement - as far as I know it is not, unless the trailer or towing vehicle manufacturer requires it. While the attached PDF does mention 10%, a cursory glance also shows other figures such as 5% mentioned. What is quite clear is that with heavy trailers making sure that down weight is both enough for stability, and less than the maximum for the vehicle is both critical and not easy to do in many cases. I agree that probably the majority of people towing heavy trailers are likely to be exceeding towball limits.

Another point worth mentioning is that the requirement for placarding tow bars only applies to vehicles and towbars made after a specific date, I think about 1990, so don't expect to find them on older vehicles.
JD

[Pedro_The_Swift]

the advantage of the Disco's might be in the rear air bags??

[JDNSW]

the advantage of the Disco's might be in the rear air bags??

For years I drove Citroen Ds with self levelling suspension, and this, together with the small rear overhang and no side flex in the suspension made them ideal tow vehicles, despite the relatively low power (only small trailers of course). I would expect this to be an advantage with the levelled Discos and RRs as well.
John

[CraigE]

350kgs on the tow ball seems awfull high. Is it possible to get the weight distributed over the trailer better so that the tow ball weight comes down. I know there are weight distribution bars available. Also a tri axle trailer may help distribute the weight more evenly. I would seriously talk to a specialist trailer manufacturer, they should be able to help. My understanding is the loaded weight of the trailer has very little to do with it, but the towball downforce is all that is important. Off setting wheels and load helps. I have towed car trailers loaded and have not exceeded 150kg tow ball weight, yet the total weight of the trailer would have exceeded 2500kgs and to be honest had less impact on the rear of the car than some loaded 6x4 trailers that I have towed. 350kgs on a tow ball would raelly make the back end of your vehicle sink down.
Good luck.

[mark2]

If it were me having to carry that much weight regularly, I would simply invest in a small truck with a crate on the back or convert a 4 tonne pantec. Would most likely be a lot cheaper than a large float and an appropriate tow vehicle to suit. Even a dual cab if there are more than 3 of you travelling with the horses.

[JDNSW]

If it were me having to carry that much weight regularly, I would simply invest in a small truck with a crate on the back or convert a 4 tonne pantec. Would most likely be a lot cheaper than a large float and an appropriate tow vehicle to suit. Even a dual cab if there are more than 3 of you travelling with the horses.

Worth considering if you can get a suitable vehicle that you can drive on a car licence - but while I think you are certainly right about the initial cost, the ongoing costs would be a lot higher, particularly if the tow vehicle is also used as a normal car for the rest of the week. If it means an extra vehicle, while you can almost certainly get a suitable truck cheaper than a large float, the Registration, insurance and maintenance on anything with a motor will be a lot more than on even the largest float, probably a lot more.

[mark2]

Worth considering if you can get a suitable vehicle that you can drive on a car licence - but while I think you are certainly right about the initial cost, the ongoing costs would be a lot higher, particularly if the tow vehicle is also used as a normal car for the rest of the week. If it means an extra vehicle, while you can almost certainly get a suitable truck cheaper than a large float, the Registration, insurance and maintenance on anything with a motor will be a lot more than on even the largest float, probably a lot more.

True, but cost is only one of the factors to consider (however I think if you look at depreciation, a truck may come out in front) -towing 3.5t with any non truck 4WD is marginal at best from an engineering, performance and safety perspective whereas a truck is designed to carry these loads all day long and will allow a lot more space for sleeping quarters, extra gear etc.

[JDNSW]

True, but cost is only one of the factors to consider (however I think if you look at depreciation, a truck may come out in front) -towing 3.5t with any non truck 4WD is marginal at best from an engineering, performance and safety perspective whereas a truck is designed to carry these loads all day long and will allow a lot more space for sleeping quarters, extra gear etc.

All the above is correct, although given good trailer design, construction and loading safety and perhaps engineering should be not significantly different.
The problem with using a truck is that charges for parts, service, registration and insurance all assume that the vehicle is earning money on a daily basis, and charge accordingly. Very few farmers round here can afford to keep trucks - but few use trailers above 2.5T either - it gets complicated and all gets too hard! And it is cheaper to hire a carrier when you need one, although not necessarily easier.
John

[uninformed]

have you thought about going away from the tow ball and using a pintel hook instead. if you look at the rear cross member of a defender you wiill se 4 bolt holes, 2 either side of center @ approx 100mm centers. these are designed for a pintel hook. i think you will find they are have a higher rating than a ball.

the miliatry use them and you see them on medium size council trucks/trailers, especially the aircompressor trailers used for big air tools.

the trailer has a big ring that locks into the pintel.

chees, Serg

[dobbo]

have you thought about going away from the tow ball and using a pintel hook instead. if you look at the rear cross member of a defender you wiill se 4 bolt holes, 2 either side of center @ approx 100mm centers. these are designed for a pintel hook. i think you will find they are have a higher rating than a ball.

the miliatry use them and you see them on medium size council trucks/trailers, especially the aircompressor trailers used for big air tools.

the trailer has a big ring that locks into the pintel.

chees, Serg


I agree but try and find a horse float with anything apart from a towball setup. If you can, send me the details, besides most floats distribute the weight of the horses directly over the axles (not the drawbar)
As for a horsetruck I've considered it myself many of times but if you don't venture out on a weekly basis you cannot get the use out of the 6 monthly rego. (around the cost of a disco and horse floats rego combined)

Disadvantages. Truck licence, 6 monthly rego, inability to use as a daily driver, storage when not in use. CANNOT GO OFFROAD IN A HORSE TRUCK. Most setups I see when towing a double/triple floats are disco's, the odd defender, Rangies,RRS( for those with moula) patrols or cruisers with the standard 250kg balls. These cars are used at least every fortnight and have never heard of towball problems.

[p38arover]

A friend used to tow a float with a Patrol. She has now moved to a truck-based float. When she goes to jumping events she and her jumping companions can sleep in the truck and that saves a lot of money.

The float behind the Ford truck pictured earlier in this thread http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php't=28352 has sleeping quarters in the front (I had a good look at it when I went out to help pick it up from Tuzu -- it was brand new at the time).

Ron

[dobbo]

Not really saving on much sleeping in the truck, most folk have tents, some sleep in the back of the float (after cleaning it out) or get a room in the local pub. The cost of rego twice a year is offset by the money saved sleeping in a real bed.

[DarrenW]

I looked into this a while ago as I have a 20ft caravan with a ball weight of 200kg. I have a Tdi Disco

below is from the 1999 Rangie Owners Manual but its basically the same for other Land Rover products

NOSE WEIGHT
The recommended maximum trailer nose weight is 150 kg. The nose weight plus the combined weight of the vehicle’s load carrying area and rear seat passengers must NOT EXCEED the maximum rear axle load or the gross vehicle weight (as shown in ’General data’).

General data ....
ECB rear axle 1055kg (curb wieght)
Max rear axle 1840kg

but also

Nose weight (off-road & on-road) 150 kg

The point of all this is I was trying to be legal towing my van.

I casually showed a lawyer friend the above and said if I had greater than 150kg of ball weight but below Max rear axle weight am I legal.
Don't take this as full legal advise but he said I should be ok due to the "recommmended bit".

Next challenge was to get a TOW BAR that had a plate on it that said a higher ball weight.
I was running a Kaymar rear step that had a plate mentioning 120kgs.

After searching around I found the tow bar supplied by ARB has a plate stating ball weight of 200kgs.

Whats annoying me know is I want to upgrade .... Rangie or Defender haven't seen a tow bar with a plate larger than 150kgs.

Darren