S1 Holden 186 smoke issues

[shamirj]

Having almost completed my rebuild on the S1 with holden 186 - it seems to be smoking alot, so after trying an oil additive 'stop smoke' then a valve oil conditioner with no luck my theory is as follows (but i am no mechanic)...

oil is getting into the chamber from either the rings or the valves? which is causing the oil to burn producing smoke - btw it smokes during cold and when warm, colour is somewhere between blue and white but NOT black smoke.

guessing it maybe the valves, began dismantling the head only to stop so that i can do a compression test (wet and dry) and will post up results here once my ebay purchases arrive (comp pressure tester gauge)

then will prob change the valve stem seals, clean up and lap the valves and assess any damages.

my other concern is if the rings are stuffed, how to test ? can i pour fuel onto the top of the pistons and leave o/night and if that goes down its a sign of poor rings - would this be a good idea or not please. hoping its just the head valves with poor stem seals. visually can inspect the bore for the pistons but that wont tell me if the rings are any good. help [bigsad]

[JDNSW]

If the issue is valve stem seals, you will find that the smoke is greatest when opening the throttle after idling for a few minutes, but it will decrease when running under load, where if it is rings, expect the smoke to increase with full throttle under load. Of course, it may be both. And check spark plugs for signs of oiling - if one plug is oily, it is likely to be rings on that cylinder. All plugs oily can indicate general wear - or the wrong heat range plugs!

A compression test is likely to give a good indication of ring wear, although there is always the possibility of the compression rings being ok but a broken oil control ring. There is also the possibility of the cylinder walls being glazed.

Unfortunately, while compression testing and borescope etc will give an indication as to the problem, the only definitive answer will be to pull the pistons and look at the rings.

[Homestar]

Typically, if it was just the valve stem seals, the smoke would clear after a while unless the valve guides are really shot as well and there is noticeable movement laterally in the valves in which case the head will need some work. It is a good place to start though but my guess would be on the rings and bores - these engines were never made of the best steel back in the day and do wear quite a bit. If you aren't up for a full rebuild you may get away with a hone and a set of oversized rings - you will need to gap them properly before fitting them by pushing them right down the bore to measure the gap. If the bores are work and you just want a cheap stop gap, then this works to an extent - I've done it a few times on these engines. The bores will be flared at the top so push the rings right down into the bores to measure the ring gap.

Yes, it's dodgy and really if it's that bad, you should rebuild the engine but if that's not an option then this can help for much cheaper - you can do it all in situ - head off, sump off, pistons out. A couple of days work.

Start with the valve stems if you want - you don't need to remove the head to do this if you don't want to but it is easier to pull the head and that only takes an hour all in - you can stuff some rope into the cylinders through the spark plug hole then wind the engine around until its compressed somewhat - this will stop the valves falling down when you pull the valve springs but you'll need the right kind of valve spring compressor to do this or modify one to suit.

[shamirj]

I like your thinking homestar... again this was never supposed to be a full on rebuild but it kinda happened that way, but just want to stop the smoke from the engine for now that will be my next challenge.

Guess what turned up in the mail today my new set, silly me threw out a similar unit my late father had in his garage thinking i would never need one oh well.

interesting read in the test results section and what the readings all mean or could possibly mean.

now the hard work begins, i had began unbolting all the head bolts but did not move the cyl head so have tightened them back up but not torqued. i will attempt the readings today if the weather permits and report back my findings, very curious to find what's going on. wish me luck...

[1950landy]

Joe ,
These additives usually only work when you can drive the vehicle & load up the engine which helps to force the rings out against the bore to deglaze , they also clean the sludge out of the ring groves to free up the rings. They are not going to work just running the engine .
Wayne

[shamirj]

the results are in and I am overwhelmed by the results so happy [bigsmile]

Q1. lowest 150psi to highest 175psi see the results in pic, am I guaranteed on these results my piston rings are in great shape or what. What can I deduce from these results please. I have heard over 150 is good compression. Didn't bother with a wet test thought no need given the good results.

Q2. there is black soot or carbon build up on the spark plugs - is this unburnt fuel perhaps?

Q3. best way to tap the side of the block with head bolts out to get the damn head off. will not budge yet. curious to see inside.

Overall pretty happy with todays effort and pleased the pistons are in good shape. [biggrin]

photos to come...

[Homestar]

Good news. You don't have to be too shy on getting the head off, there is nothing really to break unless you have a sledgehammer in there. [biggrin]

A sharp screwdriver or chisel between the head and block at one corner and a few taps until there's some pressure on there is usually enough to free the head - the block and head will be fine as long as there isn't a sharp burr or anything on what you're using. [wink11]

[shamirj]

1. working from the front of the engine to the back spark plug 1
2. spark plug 2
3. no 3
4. no 4
5. no 5 forgot to take a pic of no 6 spark plug. these were all new spark plugs so surprised how dirty they all look. will clean them up before inserting back in.

6. test results cyl 4 + 5 were the best performing
7-8. pics of the tappets, valve guides - anything unusual here that i am not seeing or does it look like its ok

[shamirj]

1. cyl head removed as suggested, used small screw driver and hammered gently till it opened.

2. valve side to be expected I am guessing soot or carbon build up over the years but there is evidence of oil still unsure whether its coming from the valve guides/seals

3. wow a lot of cleaning to commence to get all this crap off

4. are these push rods supposed to have open clean inners, mine seem to be blocked with junk, will clean these out as well

5. another view of the condition of the push rods (do these replace the need for a timing belt)

6. one of two snapped bolt remains, thinking i may heat up before attempting to retrieve

7. 2nd bolt snapped at rear nearest the locating pin

8. finally diff question - this is how i managed to secure a s2 mirror to the s1, but would like a better looking bracket then this - so what does a s1 bracket look like for the internal mirror.

apart from cleaning the head, what should I commence on next, took the head gasket off in one piece (have a new one to use), new head bolts arrived in the mail as well as the lapping tool/paste

[shamirj]

1 bit worried about these holes which were small when i dig around they become larger, hmm... is this a bad sign for the head

2 you can see the smallest hole in the gasket against the old and new gasket has become a bigger hole in the block

3-4 managed to find a suitable nut and tightened down on the block where the two bolts snapped - will weld these from the top and then try to undo, thinking the heat from the weld may loosen the bolt left overs

5 lapping tool and paste arrived

6 are these push rods supposed to have clear inner holes, i cant seem to push through a wire cable to clean them out, is there a top side and bottom or does not matter which way round when installing

[1950landy]

Joe , Even though you have good compression , that only says the compression rings are sealing but the bore could be glazed & the oil rings could be stuck in the ring groves . As for the rear vision mirror S1's never had a internal rear vision mirror so what you have done should be OK if you can see out of it.

[Homestar]

Pushrods are hollow and they allow oil up to the rockers. If the are blocked then you’ll need to clean them out or find replacements. While it doesn’t really matter which way around they go it is always better to put them back the same way you removed them and in the same hole they cane out of as the wear on them, the rockets and lifters will all match. Mixing and matching these is not recommend if you can help it.

I’d clean all the crud you can off everything - the point made about the oils rings is valid - with that much crud around the top end I’d be guessing the oil rings could be stuck.

In for a penny so they say - you up for whipping the sump off and knocking the pistons out? If there’s a large lip in the bore they this can cause issues getting them out and generally you’d need to cut the lip off with a lip cutter before removing them.

If you do that, you could carefully remove the rings, clean everything and reassemble. A quick hone while the pistons are out would be worth it too.

Oh and don’t stress about the size of the hole on the block with that corrosion - it will be fine. Might pay to flush the coolant system when you’re done and treat it to some new coolant to stop it going any further.

[JDNSW]

Bit hard to be sure from the picture, but those plugs look oily to me rather than sooty!

[1950landy]

Joe, I thought of one other thing that could cause oil getting into cylinders & that is the PCV valve. It should rattle when you shake it , if it doesn't rattle it could be stuck open allowing the manifold vacuum to suck oil out of the rocker cover , but I think Homestar could be rite & you need to take the pistons out & check the rings. Don't get the pistons mixed up they will need to go back in the same cylinders also bearing caps on same con rods. It is hard to tell by the photo but it does not look like there is much lip in the bore

[shamirj]

compression is great but the oil is not so how is the oil getting across all the bores - if it was a broken ring then only one bore would have oil whereas my opinion is all of the bores seem oily as were all of the spark plugs indicating to me something else is at play here - unless all rings are stuck sticky - can you really have good compression but bad oil rings??? wouldn't the compression rings and oil rings deteriorate at a similar rate, don't understand why the compression rings are good to excellent but poor oil rings.

my other thought was to hone from the top as is, but that would cause a lip unable to go all the way down in current state.

then thought to just do the head for now and re assess when back together and drop the sump later to do the rings if head doesn't work...

I have ordered the tool needed to compress the valve spring to dismantle to assess what's happening there. while i wait for that i will continue to clean everything up. I did place the push rods in my cordless drill and spin with a light application of sand paper (prob shouldn't have) but it cleaned up - hoping no tight tolerances for the push rods.

as for the coolant it was has been all new and yes did flush out as much as i could previously.
as for the pcv valve that was all new as well but will shake to see...

really hoping its more a valve stem seal problem more then anything else and not having to remove the bottom end but will wait till I pull out the valve to reassess and share the pics.

re the internal mirror will make up something more suitable and nicer looking - no wonder i could not find any internal mirrors for S1

I did make some progress yest on more cleaning up for now.

I wouldn't mind using again the oil additives that help stop the smoking but i cant drive on the roads legally unreg to place the motor under load - if i was on a farm yes i would, so will see how that goes. thanks as always to sharing this journey and suggestions with me.

[Homestar]

Pistons need to come out the top of the engine so you'll need the head off if you go back and do this. Regarding the rings - they may not be completely worn, and the compression shows this, but the oil control rings work differently to the compression rings and based on the amount of carbon in the engine I would bet the oil rings are bound up in the spacer and not controlling the oil like they should - once oil gets past them, your compression rings can be new but you'll still have a smoking issue.

I understand you only want to be doing as little as possible, but if you go to all the trouble of putting new valve stem seals on the head and putting it back together and you still have an issue, the head has to come back off to do the next bit - I'd be dropping the sump and popping one piston out to check - that will soon show you if you need to do them all - you're more than 50% of the way there with the head off - the bottom end isn't hard to do - the sump refit is probably the worst bit.

Oh, when you were talking about the timing belt - these run timing gears behind the front housing. Likely to be an original fibre gear on the camshaft which can strip and leave you stopped somewhere - but your call on it you change that now or later. The valves don't interfere with the pistons on these engines so it won't internally damage the engine and you can fit a new cam gear by pulling the front cover off - you'd probably need to remove the rad for working room too, but I would leave this job until it's required.

[1950landy]

Joe, the fact there is so much oil in the cylinders would have given you a false reading same as doing a wet test. Homestar is rite the oil rings will be at fault , you will need to replace all the rings , oil & compression & give the the bore a hone to deglaze it as well as replacing the valve stem seals. You may also need to replace the big end bearings if worn. Also if the big end bearings are worn & need replacing so too will the mains.
If you only do half a job it will come back to bite you. I know you have already had the timing cover of from your previous posts in the S1 section. Have you bought a Holden workshop manual yet you will need it now to explain how to adjust the valve clearances if not done correctly you can bend pushrods .
This photo is from his previous thread 168330 so already has Alloy timing gear.
You don't know what has happened with this engine before , it could have overheated at some stage causing the rings to have lost there tension , I remember from your other thread the amount of rust & scale that came out of the block on the countless flushes you did.

[fredd63]

From the pictures, that motor has been neglected, ie looong time between oil changes. This can cause the oil control rings to stick in the grooves, letting a lot of oil past. There are a variety of bush fixes for this. One involves carefully streaming brake fluid into the carburettor while the engine is running. Be prepared for a LOT of smoke. Could try engine flush, and a few quick oil changes. I am sure that fellow Landies will come up with more fixes.

[shamirj]

Really did not want to change rings but if the overall consensus is that i should then will progress with caution - I have been mechanically stretched thus far and never in a millions years did i think i could change rings so bare with me as i ask questions moving fwd. rings appear to be cheap enough to buy, but will need to buy honing bits etc. just do not want to stuff up anything in the reinstallment.
4 deliveries today and one pick up from couriers so its been busy as but managed some work...

1. my mirrors came in today so couldn't wait to fit - didn't want to fit on the mudguards and drill out holes so fitted where the top of the door frames attach to as the next best option with no drilled holes. washdeers removed from the mirrors and they fit tightly

2. previously in the week bought some new LED which is not in keeping with a series LR and not original but gave it some character which I liked, not wired in but like the look of them. fitted.

3. push rods gave them another good clean, managed to open up 4 which were blocked up so they have been put away for when needed. I will blow some air through them as well to ensure no other debris is inside, they look very clean inside though as is. i think the rubbish build up was at the tips of the rods. Last pic is a comparison of the push rods before and after.

cheers all and thx for suggestions - Wayne no I have not yet purchased a holden manual.

I did find a suitable nut for the two snapped bolts and welded one of them twice but when i turned the nut to undo the snapped bolt the weld gave way instead - not sure why, filled the nut head with weld so ....

[ian4002000]

Back in the bad old days when Holden 6's were very popular, i would always do two oil changes with 3000 Kms between them using 20/50 oil. If the engine still had excessive oil consumption i would swap over to a 50 w oil .
If 50 w oil wont help you will need a rebuild.

We also used GM head stud sealer on the bolts to stop water leaks , now days i would use permatex no 3 coz i dont have access to the GM sealer.

The small holes in the head gasket are corrct and are to reduce water flow around the bores.

If the push rods were gummed up , you will probably find the lifters are gummed up as well. They are cleanable but it is time consuming, i dont know what new lifters would cost nowadays.

Once you get it running take it for a long drive and get the engine hot and hopefully under load. ie up a big hill. This should help burn out some of gunk built up and seal the rings up.

Good luck

Ian
Bittern

[shamirj]

well started today with draining the engine oil - those sump guards were a bit of a nightmare to put on so will get that off soon.

1. that damn snapped bolt will not budge have soaked in wd40 and started to drill the centre out carefully. any other suggestions of getting this out - i have two snapped bolts needing to be removed.

2. my reversing drill bits are useless cheap ebay crap i have realised (visit to bunnings)

3. radiator was another pain to get out, the bolt holes were to tight a fit which made the bolt coming out to support radiator a nightmare in limited space but in the end managed so its out and packed away for now

4. as the engine sits right now.

I want to buy some cleaning drill attachment which are safe to use on the head and block to clean all that area up. they sell them on ebay but cant wait for them so will have a look at Bunnings for something soft and non abrasive to use.

Also forgot to mention blew air into the push rods which cleared remaining particles out.

[1950landy]

Joe , Just buy some decarbonizing brushes from auto shop ( Supercheap, Repo, ect) As for the studs you may have to carefully drill out to larger size & re tap the thread. Some one else may have another suggestion on the studs . If you have broken the stud a drill won't have enough torque to reverse it out . One other thing you could try is Freeze Off which you spray on the stud & hopefully it will shrink the stud enough for you to be able to screw it out with an easy out .168365These are the best type of broken stud remover they don't expand the stud making it tighter to screw out like the tapered ones do. You could also try using a punch a little smaller than the stud & giving it a hit with a hammer to crack the rust on the thread & loosen the stud.

[shamirj]

what a crappy day whenever under any car...

so took the sump off, when ever i get under any car these days I get light headed, slight dizziness and then nausea so felt like crap but managed to get the two nuts off the piston no1. but the carrier that holds the bearing would not completely remove (is there a trick here i am missing) its loose but wont come off completely then i gently pushed the piston upwards but it wont come over thinking there is the lip on the top of the bore where the piston does not touch on its stroke upwards could this be causing it to get stuck...

i was really struggling with this one god knows how i will get the remaining ones off and replaced - taking them off is easier then replacing them back inside the engine...

someone mentioned a lip somewhere on the block is this top of the bore the lip which needs to be ground down

[Homestar]

Yes, was me about the lip - I had a lip cutter I would use before trying this - or you can smite them hard to remove them and replace the rings but you risk damaging the pistons but I have done it.

[1950landy]

If you have not got bearing caps off the piston won't come out , The caps will only be tight on the bolts, Could be that the cap has stretched , If you can knock one of the bolts out the cap should come off. If the piston has come up that far it should come out . All the years I worked in the motor trade I never had to remove the lip to get pistons out , the rings should compress in past the lip. You should be able to once the cap is off knock the conrod up with a hammer handle. Note which is the front of the piston it will need to go back in the same way in same bore , also bearing caps have to go back on same conrods & same way they came off.

[JDNSW]

Just a comment on ease of working - the mudguards come off pretty easily (barring seized bolts), and make working on the engine a lot easier.

[shamirj]

1. noticed all the pistons have this marking (in yellow) and they all point to the front of the engine so assume this is to tell me when i reinstall they must all face to the front. Learnt today piston heads for the oil rings have holes to drain/supply oil.

2. these are the markings on top of the piston - says STD (standard i pressume), do these help when i need to order the rings or not. Also after honing do you need to purchase oversize rings and would i order the same size as is on her at the moment and how do i tell which size is on it? Do rings have markings on them to tell me the size fitted?

cleaned all the 6 piston tops nicely, popped piston one back in so i could rotate the engine to clean the piston tops.

Thinking to get a mobile mechanic to come to just pull out the pistons for me and try to remove the broken bolts if i cant remove myself. Also to call them back to reinstall the piston and place the sump guard on to eliminate my need to get under the car. not sure they will come but can only ask.

[1950landy]

1. noticed all the pistons have this marking (in yellow) and they all point to the front of the engine so assume this is to tell me when i reinstall they must all face to the front. Learnt today piston heads for the oil rings have holes to drain/supply oil.

2. these are the markings on top of the piston - says STD (standard i pressume), do these help when i need to order the rings or not. Also after honing do you need to purchase oversize rings and would i order the same size as is on her at the moment and how do i tell which size is on it? Do rings have markings on them to tell me the size fitted?

cleaned all the 6 piston tops nicely, popped piston one back in so i could rotate the engine to clean the piston tops.

Thinking to get a mobile mechanic to come to just pull out the pistons for me and try to remove the broken bolts if i cant remove myself. Also to call them back to reinstall the piston and place the sump guard on to eliminate my need to get under the car. not sure they will come but can only ask.
Yes the mark shows front & yes standard size, providing the bore is not oversize & needs machining & you only give a light hone you should be able to buy STD rings . The mechanic should be able to tell you if there is any lip in the bore. Good Idea to get mechanic that way you won't need to buy a ring compressor & he should know how to fit the rings. If they are fitted wrong they will not work.

[shamirj]

1. my new soft brush from sca - they are only about $5 and seem to work ok, did a quick test and works fine

2. inside the yellow ring is the experiment i did with this brush and its cleaning up ok - lots more cleaning to do but slowly will get there

3. sca also had this ezy out, tapping in reverse direction but i think its not working because it has gone down far enough to but hard to the side of the snapped bolt - may need to drill deeper into the snapped bolt for this to work

4. you can see i am just tapping into the tip which will have less strength so will play around with this and see if i can drill deeper and whether this works or not. not having much luck yet, did carefully try hitting with a screw driver and then a chisel but the chisel just wants to cut it up and not rotate it, did hammer down into the hole but that didn't help either

5. another soft brush from sca - again seems to work ok

6. here this time this brush used to test the head, and again happy with the results - effective way of cleaning the head and the block

my honing tool is max 89mm which is about the same size as the bore - so should i buy a larger honing tool or will this do (it would be at its extent though) me thinks i will need to replace with a larger honing tool.

I'm expecting to see the oil rings build up with carbon and not rotating freely, possible broken ring or its just lost its compression causing my smoking engine, can't wait to get at least one out to see

[shamirj]

1. so I got my ebay crap (as it turned out) spring compressor for the valves nice and new until i used it ...

2. after some hours of cleaning this is the best i can get with the head cleaned up - will need more i think but looks ok for now

3. I carefully knocked off the outer left over of the snapped bolt, drilled some more, tried to tap, used one of the older bolts to bite into the steel but still no luck, some of the top has been removed but still unable to budge so have left in wd40 and allow to soak and then reattempt

4. my bananna valve spring compressor - tried a few times but realised the top bushings supplied needs to seat (or sit) on top of the outer washer to compress down evenly - my problem was it did not fit (just too small) which kept sliding about on top and then this happened - holy crap that aint going to work now - waste of money... still unable to remove one valve. slow going...

[1950landy]

This is the type I use , have had mine for 50 years & all the workshops I worked in when I was in the motor trade had these ,with no problems . Some times you need to give the valve cap a slight tap , not too hard you don't want to bend the valve, with a small hammer to get the collets to release from the tapper in the valve cap as you are depressing the valve spring compressor. 168556

[JDNSW]

Identical to the one I have, except mine is a bit rusty (was that waay when I bought it at a clearing sale 25 years ago!)

[shamirj]

1. here is a comparison of where the two bolts snapped to give me an indication of whats left in the block to extract, at a loss for the first one, but the 2nd one i can still manage to secure a nut on top of the extrusion and will give welding another go. fill with weld then hopefully undo the nut and the bolt should come out. not sure but are these bolts hardened steel and thus harder to weld? normal length on left.

2. more cleaning has yielded better results including piston tops but needs more towards the rear to clean up for good. If only I could get those damn two bolts out I will be done.

As for the mobile mechanic no go, people seem not interested which means more work for me, oh well. As for the clamp will need to see if i can bend it back with some heat I think its made of aluminium.

by the way can I sparingly use a razor to clean the top of the block for those really stubborn left over gasket?

can I go ahead and purchase the piston rings standard size or should i hold off till i get one piston out before ordering please

[ramblingboy42]

Being a retired engineering tradesperson , I would not advise you to go any further trying to remove your broken studs.

To me it would not be a challenge but to an inexperienced person could lead to tears.

Surely someone experienced lives close enough to assist you?

Maybe as you suggested using an indy mechanic (who has experience removing broken studs) may be your best solution.

Best of luck with it.

[shamirj]

1. heat and bend - first attempt not too bad but slightly off so heated and attempted twice
2. my heat source and steel bar to help bend the U into a U
3. as close as i can get it, both arms level now, so hopefully can remove those damn valves guides soon as
4. prior to reading some comments (ramblingboy) I did have another go at welding a nut on, nut to one side of pic but it did not work
5. underside of nut after welding, weld for some reason is not holding or the bolt is real stubborn
6. there is the stubborn bolt - might call in an expert bolt remover if i can find someone local
7-8. as clean as i can get these, job done with cleaning the block pretty happy with the outcome and has transformed the engine I feel

[shamirj]

well it happened didn't it, as possibly predicted by some....

called my local bolt shop for a contact for a bolt remover specialist - didn't know of one, couldn't find any locally, I am sure they are out there but couldn't find any. another indie mechanic was going to send a number through to me but never did so.... the local bolt shop said they had some reversing drills and drill bits to remove so went down to look and see

1. so bought these very good quality for almost $100 for the pair

2. put to use could feel it was tight so kept drilling out to make less of the snapped bolt in place, then applied heat directly in the hole and this happened, snapped again would not budge, bugger (extractor stuck inside not the drill bit)

3. so decision made to toss the engine and find a replacement one, bonnet off and accessories coming off, recently another holden 186 was selling cheap enough so will need to look around something i can hear running and confirm no smoking so no need to do rings but open to what's available locally. I will need to source an engine lift as the diff is in the way of removing from below as i did b4.

4. in its current state, hoping to rip the engine out asap, but looking for alternatives now, workload increased ten fold now

[1950landy]

Joe , if you are pulling it out why don't you take to engine re - conditioner see what they can do . they would have dealt with broken studs & should be able to give a report on engine condition & a quote on what is needed. Buying second hand you don't know what you are getting . I know people who have bought an engine on seller saying it has been re-conditioner only to find all that has been done is new rings & bearings in a worn out motor which soon becomes a problem & they have no come back.

Also that type of tapered stud extractor all they do is expand the stud making it tighter in the thread & this is usually what happens with extremely tight studs , they are OK for bolts that are not very tight . They should sold you a straight shanked extractor like the one I posted earlier, that don't expand the bolt in the hole.

What the engine shop will do is Drill the bolt with procession drilling machine then re-tap the thread providing you have not damaged it . Then they may be able to helicoil it were they tap another thread in then fit a helicoil that will be correct thread for the studs .

[Homestar]

Bugger - as you’ve found out, removing broken bolts can be very difficult. With something like that I would have stripped the block down and put it on a mill to drill the holes out precisely based on the actual measurements of the block then helicoiled the new hole.

Could still be salvageable and if you’re pulling the engine anyway, someone may be able to do this.

[mick88]

Some of the head studs in a Holden straight six go directly into the water jacket and require a special AC Delco (or a similar alternative) thread sealing compound, to stop water/coolant migration up the thread. It's a pricey product, so for the guy doing a one off engine rebuild, its often not an option, so blokes tend to use an alternative.

Given the drama's you are having with those broken studs, my guess is some dill might have opted for Loctite as a sealer when they rebuilt your engine. If by chance this is the case and it's one of the high end Loctite products that has been used, you will need to heat that stud up to red hot in an attempt the break the adhesion.
The other option is precision drilling, then helicoiling a new thread into the hole, but as Homestar say's, that's best done on with a some accurate workshop machinery like a mill drill or similar.
As a last ditch attempt if there is enough of the broken stud remover sticking out you could try putting another nut over it and getting some decent weld onto it so it will hold, plus the intense heat might crack the seal. But be careful, you dont want to bugger the block.

With regards to the valve stem seals you can use the standard little neoprene rings, or you can get the ends of the valve guides machined to take the mushroom type valve guide sealing caps. Not necessary, but i recently had this done to one of the Holden engines i rebuilt, and i would probably do it again.

If you stick with this engine and decide to hone the cylinders, remember honing isnt just about deglazing the bore, its very important to get the correct cross-hatch pattern on the cylinder walls. So if you bugger this up, your engine will blow loads of smoke, will use oil, and may take forever and a day to before it is run in, and stops using oil.

To answer your question about the pushrods, they are necessary because the engine does not have an overhead cam, they are the mechanical link between the cam lobes and the valve rocker arms.
The lifters can be pulled apart easily and cleaned out, its not a hard job to do. You can buy new ones through Bursons or Repco etc, about $38 for a box of six (you need 12) last time i purchased them, but that was about three to four years ago.
I just checked Ebay..$60 for six, and Crow Cams list them on Ebay for $133 for full set of 12.

The 186 are a good old donk, and once sorted, it will give you reliable and trouble free running for years to come.


Cheers, Mick.

[shamirj]

1-3. This top hat does not sit flush cause it has a lip which is supposed to go over the washer and lock it in under pressure from moving around. I think this top hat is just a few mm small, will need to think of something to help keep it in one location, this is why i think this devise ended up bending like a bannana.

4. freeze off was purchased and trialed but did not work either, maybe because the shank on the extractor is so shiny and smooth, next idea is to grind two flat surfaced so that i can get a spanner on the the sides to undo.

meanwhile the larger honing tool arrived today which i may or may not use in the end depending what happens with this engine.

I have been looking on gumtree etc and there are holden 186 engines cheap enough and I know i have no idea of the condition but want to get this done, if the bolts don't come out and I can't get a thread in there, then may just get another motor. One guy has engine still installed in car so can test start and if all is ok could purchase but my D4 is out of commission so cant take my trailer to buy another engine quiet yet.

Think may try to grind the extractor first and then see what happens... damn snapped bolts (x2)

[1950landy]

I can't see why this dose not compress the spring , it only has to clear the collets which I can clearly see it dose in the photo . My guess is that the collets are stuck in the tapper which will stop you compressing the spring . As I said you may need to place a socket under the valve head then give the valve cap a slight hit with a hammer to release the collets from the tapper. Not too hard you don't want to bend a valve.

[shamirj]

thanks Wayne, the spring does compress no probs but as I tighten the top hat tends to want to wonder around as the lip is not seating properly over the flat washer to secure it snug and stop it moving about...

1. limited success managed to grind the sides off my extractor tool and it came out no probs

2. close up of the top sides ground down to a flat surface to then turn with spanner - worked a treat.

3. then played around with one of the old bolts and ground the sides two sides down on an angle to help locate in the hole but no go. I believe the old snapped bolt has steel hard pressed along the sides particularly at the start of the bolting - hence cannot get a grip to even commence bolting down. to me its almost impossible to do (for me anyway)

4. freeze agent did bugger all, doesn't even look like its freezing really - waste of another $20 for the can. I did put another bolt in to give me a guide for the hole with the snapped bolt when trying to tap a new thread - that didn't work either

5. my honing tool

Have almost given up on this block now, If I can't manage this bolt up front with easy access, the rear one hard up against the firewall is or would be more difficult to undo with limited room.

Just as easy to find a replacement motor not blowing any smoke and fitting a replacement complete engine, will strip all new bits already fitted to this engine for the replacement one.

I am also hoping to leave the box in place with just enough room to pull the engine fwd and up to remove (front cross member is in the way)... more to come...

[1950landy]

If the spring is compressing , if you have a small magnet you should be able to use it to lift the collets out , the spring dose not to be compressed very far . I don't like this type of spring compressor dose not allow you to get your fingers to the collets . May help to get a small screw driver between the split between the collets they may be stuck in the grove of the valve stem. I have taken collets out using a socket under the valve head & pushing down on the sprong with an open ended spanner, so what you have should work. If I was in Sydney I would come & help but a bit far from Brisbane

[1950landy]

See if you can find a video on using the cylinder hone so you don't take too much out of the cylinders . you need to move the hone up & down in the cylinder while it is rotating so you get cross hatching. We used to use kero to lube the stones , not sure what they use these days. Is there no one near you that could give you a hand.

[shamirj]

So I thought I had better start the tear down process for removing the holden 186 in preparation for a replacement one yet to be found...

1. bonnet off pretty easy no tools needed (don't u just love working on the S1)

2. side door off for easy access to cabin (no tools)

3. ripped out the two side floors and the middle hump cover and all the attached bits n pieces

I did make a start on removing the gearbox bolts/nuts which i could access from above. Only a few left which i need to access from below.
Next will be the gearbox mounts, prop and tail shaft to allow box to slide backwards. And the clutch attachment to the chassis.

I should then be able to lift the engine out - cant be too heavy as the head is already off. Will need to get a hand winch to mount of a previously used mount above the garage. Going to leave the head alone now and try to find something suitable holden 186 in reasonable condition that can be bolted straight in.

[JDNSW]

I would remove at least one front mudguard to make life easier.

[shamirj]

Just got of the phone and did a deal for a replacement holden 202 engine. After looking around the usual places gumtree etc and there are lots of holden 6's around, most I came across were sitting ideal somewhere and often when asked people were not aware of the condition of the engine or that they were stored for many years UNTIL i found one fresh still in a car and still running.

I asked and obtained a video of the running engine which appeared to be in good condition and no smoking out the back so did the deal. Its coming in 2-3weeks time due to both of us having other commitments. I am unable to collect due to D4 issues (car is booked in for a turbo fix but both LR indies are 4weeks full) so needed to wait. The supplier is happy to deliver as soon as he removes the engine from the car hopefully in two weeks time. Which then gives me time to remove the remaining block from the LR in preparation for the 'new' engine.

Looked up the specs, the 186 is a 3L and the 202 is 3.3L engine.

Not sure removing a mudguard will help much John, I have good access at the moment but may need to remove the front radiator support though. I want to limit the amount of stuff i need to remove. Gearbox I may just slide backwards to give more room for the engine to come out. The 202 comes with extractors not sure this will fit with the LR but will see when it arrives. I am hoping to just bolt in though little nervous about the dramas i had with the clutch engaging so will need to take care to ensure everything is back together so as not to disturb the clutch mechanism too much. fingers crossed all goes ahead as planned...

[Lionelgee]

J

Looked up the specs, the 186 is a 3L and the 202 is 3.3L engine. .

Hello Shamirj,

What colour is the 202: Red, Blue or Black? Any idea what the model of the vehicle is the engine from? I have a couple of Series Land Rovers with 202 fitted. Both are reds. One of the engines has a "Q" very crudely stamped at the front of the engine number. From what I have found after some researching the "Q" meant it the engine was sent over to the Torana production line.

Be careful with the carburettors. It took me a while to work out that a previous owner had fitted a smaller capacity carburettor. Once I worked out what model/year of Holden engine was sourced from I bought a fully re-manufactured carburettor that matched the engine. Thankfully the earlier fuel supply issues went away with the new carburettor fitted.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello Shamirj,

Since you are taking an engine out and fitting another one, it gives you an opportunity to check out one of the issues of fitting a Holden motor to a Series Land Rover = alignment.

Check out this link. Accessed 18th February 2021, from ... Before Fitting a Holden Engine Check Alignment First
BEFORE FITTING A HOLDEN ENGINE CHECK ALIGMENT FIRST (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/holden-powered-series-land-rovers/133415-before-fitting-holden-engine-check-aligment-first-post1523734.html#post1523734)

It might save you some avoidable grief in the future.

Kind regards
Lionel

[shamirj]

I believe its a red holden 202 engine, came out of a 1 Tonne ute of some description, as for the carby I also bought a new refurbished one which i will remove and keep as a spare in case the one fitted to the replacement 202 is no good. I have replaced a lot of parts incl spark plugs, leads, water pump, harmonic balancer etc on the current vehicle which i think are all interchangeable with the 202 (mine is a 186). So will probably leave the 202 as is if all working fine and as it should, no need to go replacing bits n pieces if they aint broke.

Will have another read of the alignment but seems a bit out of my depth.

For now will focus on removing the engine once I source a hand winch to assist with the removal of the 186.

[mick88]

I believe its a red holden 202 engine, came out of a 1 Tonne ute of some description, as for the carby I also bought a new refurbished one which i will remove and keep as a spare in case the one fitted to the replacement 202 is no good. I have replaced a lot of parts incl spark plugs, leads, water pump, harmonic balancer etc on the current vehicle which i think are all interchangeable with the 202 (mine is a 186). So will probably leave the 202 as is if all working fine and as it should, no need to go replacing bits n pieces if they aint broke.

Will have another read of the alignment but seems a bit out of my depth.

For now will focus on removing the engine once I source a hand winch to assist with the removal of the 186.

If you havent already got one fit a Bosch HEI distributor and a Bosch HEC715 coil. The HEI dizzy was standard on the later straight six engines and they are a vast improvement. The HEC Coil was not standard, but is an excellent addition to compliment the ignition system. Combined they improve starting, performance, fuel economy, and pulling power at low revs.
You should pick up a dizzy at a wreckers or on ebay etc, and Bursons, Repco, etc sell the coils for about $80.
Replacement modules for the dizzy are also available if you want to put a spare in your tool box in case of a failure, however failures are extremely rare.

Well worth doing, a very noticeable improvement.

Cheers, Mick.

[shamirj]

Thanks Mick for the suggestions - for the moment I would be happy with a non smoking engine let alone performance

1. another part of the puzzle fell into position today the arrival of my hand winch - had same one but threw it out in my last clean out so needed to buy another. Its no engine hoist but have used this device before and it worked well and its compact enough taking precautions to use it. Will use the top beam of the garage roller door to hook up to and remove the old engine. Weather has been wet so have taken some time off the old girl but now with the winch can hopefully remove the remaining block out of the way.

Spoke to my block who is delivering the engine - its coming not this weekend but the following so still have time to remove the 186. I have a lot of new parts on the 186 that I don't want to remove and refit to the 202 as the 202 is running fine apparently so will wait and see. For example the new carby would be a shame not to fit to the 202 but ...

[shamirj]

1. this was a worry a brand new water pump in this condition after only ever starting the car never driven when installed some months ago, first thing off was the water pump to give more room.

2. you can see how close the block sits to the front cross member

3. pass side mudguard off as John suggested made life so much easier - and given I had put new bolts in, it was a no brainer and easy to remove in the end

4. next was the manifold again to free up space inside the engine bay and make removal of the block that much easier

5. next the alternator but the bottom bolt is too long to remove to allow the alternator to come out, so had to undo the bracket that's holds the alternator to the block then removed

6-7. alternator removed and then onto the starter which I had bought new from craddocks - see label on starter motor, put away for when required

8. finally measured the gap between the block and front crossmember - not much room, was thinking might be able to slide engine fwd, up and out without touching the gearbox but unlikely. so will loosen remove gearbox bolts and slide back without removing the front and rear tail shafts (if possible) but will need to remove the clutch mechanism.... happy days

[mick88]

If that is the same starter motor that you are using the Conversion must one that utilises the Land Rover flywheel,
so either a home made conversion or maybe a Dellow Conversion, either way provided they are set up correctly they are a
good conversion. The added weight (approx 4.5 kg) of the Land Rover flywheel over the standard Holden red motor
flywheel makes a big difference to the engines low down pulling power.
A Holden 202 with that extra flywheel weight will pull just like the old "adage" say's. ;)

Good luck.
Cheers, Mick.

[shamirj]

Whilst my Disco4 has been out of commission and unable to tow my box trailer to collect my holden 202 replacement, my seller kindly offered to deliver, he also had other commitments so we finally agreed on today was the day to have the engine delivered. In the back of a pick up ute with an engine hoist minus the long arms made for some interesting maneuvers until we carefully lowered down to the ground. Sitting on my timber dolly to move around in the garage. We also had to secure the hoist to my caravan to stop the engine topping over due to the missing long arms which would not have fitted in his ute.

1. as it sits next to the S1, first thing is it needs a degrease and wash to get the crap and oil off

2. bits n pieces with the motor, belt, pulley etc

3. front view, apparently came out of a HJ (one tonner ute) i think he said

4. what is this on the side of the carby, mine did not have this on the 186

5. again why another hose, mine did not have this on the 186

6. view of extractors not sure will use these

7. rear view

8. as is untouched for now, first step clean and then prob give it a lick of paint to freshen her up a little

[1950landy]

was just wondering how you were going yesterday, you must have read my thoughts.[bighmmm]

[shamirj]

just want to clean the block up and get some paint down so...

1. not sure but are these called headers, not sure will keep look to old and rusted out...

2. mysterious part on side of carby, anyone shed some light as to what it is, its hollow and has a butterfly inside

3. pass side stripped of manifold, carby, alternator, engine mounts etc

4. other side, I don't want to disturb the timing after all the problems i had getting that right on the old 186 so may leave as is and paint around it.

[1950landy]

Headers are cast iron ,these are extractors , Perry were a good brand from memory , not sure what the thing in the carby is though.

[Tins]

Perry were a good brand. If they aren't rotten and they fit in the application I'd keep 'em.

God knows what that thing on the carby is.

[shamirj]

1. cleaning the middle section of oil and grime, used the drill attachment with steel wheel then degreaser then washed with water, will let dry and see if it needs another clean

2. this is that funny thing on the side of carby pulled apart a rubber bit followed by an alum void, inside view

3. view of the side of carby where this sat, must be a diff looking carby to the norm

4. another view, rubber bit slides into position

5. top view has like air opening slots

Is it worth removing the front cover to view what's behind the harmonic balancer for gears etc or leave alone

[1950landy]

If it was me I would use your original PCV valve & hose & connect to the carby were this fitting was fitted , don't use that bit & replace the filter were the oil filler cap fits with your original filler cap. It looks like he has done away with the PCV system . Some one else may have other ideas. As for the timing cover I would leave it unless the seal is leaking. The motor is running & if it aunt broke don't touch it , you don't need any more trouble. That is my tilt on it.

[shamirj]

1. removed the clutch and pressure plate, seems like an oil leak somewhere from above perhaps the rocker cover gasket

2. clutch and pressure plate removed, that timing starter ring gear in the rear looks a little smaller to me compared to my 186 - must measure the pair should be the same size really

3. untouched and amazed at how clean this rocker cover underside is, repeat i did not clean this, straight off the engine - WOW

4. that looks to me like a newish gasket and is very good condition for an old engine, all looking pretty damn good to me

5. rocker cover bolts brackets painted up they were an odd red colour, will leave the rocker cover bare

6. side valve covers both painted up allowing to dry.

will prob use my 186 inlet manifold and my new carby, i did remove the distributor and took some measurements of its exact location so when replacing all goes where it should. overall seems like a much cleaner engine, the seller also stated the oil looked clean, filter is newish as well. impressed so far. just need to duck out and get some more red engine paint

[Homestar]

Yes, rocker cover is leaking - those aftermarket rocker covers are terrible for leaks - use some RTV on the gasket (sparingly) to help but I'd try and use a factory version myself if you want to keep it leak free long term. I don't generality use or recommend RTV but in this application, it will help. If the flywheel, etc is not correct, put the one from the old engine on. It needs a new clutch and pressure plate anyway from that pic.

Hope you have it all together soon. [smilebigeye]

[shamirj]

1. managed to remove and refit my old 186 rocker cover instead of the newer 202 one, maybe a better seal perhaps being the original. will prob try and sell the newer 202 one off. also the painted valve covers went on, will prob give it another paint to match the rocker cover to the freshly painted valve covers (side)

2. interesting observation with the spark plugs - the 202 is the one on the left, the 186 on the right, though they both fit the same block, the spanner needed for both are diff sizes and the shank is different in length where its threaded

[shamirj]

small things completed today slowly progressing, looking at buying a 2nd hand engine hoist to use and then sell on

1. took off the coil noticed it needs a resistor which is fitted to the side, cleaned up to refit and now forgot but seems like the cable from the resistor goes to the positive, leaving the negative cable going to the starter which seems wrong to me. shouldn't the positive cable go to my starter/battery like i had done on the 186 or should i just connect the resistor to the negative? should off taken more notice when removing the cable.

2. removed the spark plugs, plugged the holes with some older spark plugs painted red, then refitted the old spark plugs which came with the 202. mid section done for now and the top rear got a lick of red paint.

3. the noose put around the old 186 prepping for removal, this was the rope used when we lowered the 202 from the back of the ute and held so thought to use again.

removed the remaining 2-3 nuts for the gearbox - done, removed and marked the clutch shaft - done, tied up the exhaust out of the way - done, need to remove gearbox two mounting bolts, can i slide the gearbox on the prop and tail shafts without removing otherwise will need to remove the two shafts as well.

cant wait to drop the engine in and start reconnecting things up and starting her up again without SMOKE.

Q1. if I removed the distributor as i have, will this disturb the timing ?

[Homestar]

Coil should be wired as follows.

Negative - to Distributor

Positive from ignition - through resistor to the coil then another wire from the positive to the crank wire on the starter. This then gives you a full 12 volts on the coil when cranking which gives a better spark, then drops back to the voltage through the resistor once the engine is running.

[shamirj]

so after spending 9days in Darwin with a Xtrail Nissan 2wd as a hire car we went from Darwin to Kakadu NP then to Katherine onto litchfield NP then Darwin and home to Sydney. 2200kms in 9days, impressions of the Xtrail comfortable front seats, very smooth through the gears but a crap reversing camera (quality) compared to the D4 and our Hyundai i30.

1. time to get this S1 into action, still looking around for a cheap 2nd hand engine hoist, so placed some manifold gasket glue for the manifold then fitted both inlet/outlet manifolds into position and tightened up - hopefully no exhaust leaks from the manifold this time round, carby attached

2. connected the two hoses, someone a long time ago said didn't matter which way round these hoses go as they cool the manifold, hope they are right!

3. bottom half painted then onto the distributor which i had to remove, hopefully my timing has not been affected? spark plugs and leads all connected up. was on a roll today

4. decided to throw on the starter motor as well while i was in that area

5. finally the front fan pulley, job done.

also removed the gearbox mounting bolts to the chassis, just needs the front and rear shafts removed so that i can slide the box backwards once i secure a engine hoist. starting to get excited again, cannot wait...

[shamirj]

1. this gearbox has to come out, so removing the tailshaft nuts on the hand brake drum

2. was only going to remove one end, but could not slide the shaft back so took it out completely

3. gearbox and engine parting ways, happy to have them apart for now

4. took up some of the weight with a piece of timber for the box, took off the two gearbox mounts as well to make life easier

5. gearbox mounts removed. so now just need that damn hoist to lift the engine out.

local hire shop wanted $100 per day for the engine hoist, can buy 2nd hand for $150. SCA had a sale on them for $188 gone back up to $266 approx. All the cheaper ones are too far to collect, waiting for something more local. thats is for today

[shamirj]

just by chance SCA had a sale for the engine hoist i was after so did an online order for pick and collect at the store

1. unboxing the hoist came in two boxes not overly heavy but easier to carry with two people

2. finger tightened all bolts and secured into position

3. lowered boom to secure rope to the chain and begin the lift

4. In its full stretch position it can only lift 250kg which made the rear end of the hoist rise, so will need to peg the boom back one hole to 500kg and see if that is more suitable. cannot wait, cannot believe got this hoist today, will grab a few family members to help with lifting out as soon as i can, possibly on the w/end.

[1950landy]

Joe , they will tilt forward onto the front & middle set of wheels when lifting even if you move the hoist extension back onto either the other holes , the rear wheels are only for moving the hoist around when not lifting & with the front arms folded up in air.

As can be seen in this photo with hoist folded on right170463

[Homestar]

Yep, will be fine at full length with that engine. Mine is the same and lifts a 15KVA genset - 4 cylinder kubota diesel with main alternator and a steel frame that everything is mounted to in and out of the Hilux tray, so a Holden red motor is easy work for it. As mentioned the back wheels will always come off the ground.

[shamirj]

1. hurt my back yest from lifting the damn hoist box on my own, though not that heavy did pull a muscle in my back so with caution today this happened... removal of the original engine, thanks for the heads up on those wheels realised the weight was on the front 4 wheels only, cheers for that

2. raised out of the engine bay with the rear bits bolted into position like the adaptor etc which is nice to know i can bolt them back onto the newer engine to fit into position (was thinking i would have to bolt the adaptor after it went in from the cabin side)

3. fully out, jeez first time using the hoist and it makes life so much easier - it was a breeze to do

4. side by side new vs old, just need to bolt on adaptor, flywheel, clutch etc onto the newer engine before fitting and a lick of paint for the sump before fitting

5. an empty engine bay waiting for the newer engine

both engine are on wheels to move about, might see if i can sell cheaply the old block or worth removing the pistons to keep them - not sure yet. another job done yay happy days

[1950landy]

You just need to swap all the bits from the old motor to new ( flywheel & housing , spigot bush if different , engine mounts if different )
You will be able to use that hoist to lift the gear box out if necessary. That will save your back also.

[shamirj]

1. day started off well, took off the two side engine mounts and fitted to 202 - job done

2. comparison of the flywheel, the LR one is larger then the smaller holden one, no problems there i can swap them over

3. next thing i noticed was the teeth on both flywheels, LR one has much larger seems more heavy duty teeth then the holden, easy can swap that over

4. next thing i noticed was the lower block extreme on one side had some surgery - thought no worries moving over to the 202 so no problems except...

5. this is the 202 one, its been cut off to allow the starter motor to fit through that hole when the adaptor housing is in its position - bugger moment. can or should i just get an angle grinder out and butcher like they did to make fit?

6. the 186 spigot hole is larger

7. the 202 spigot hole is smaller - 2nd bugger moment.

should have been an easy swap out but not that simple - what can i do? just pull out the spigot from the 202, not sure the 186 had one now!

[1950landy]

Joe I would be replacing that Welch Plug while you can , will save pulling the motor out again if it leaks in a couple of years. The LR 1st motion shaft is larger in diameter than the Holden one. You will be able to get the spigots out by packing the hole full of grease then find something that is a neat fit in the hole then driving the drift in with a hammer , the grease should hydraulic it out. Can't help with weather to cut the lug on the Holden motor , never had a LR with a Holden red motor.

[1950landy]

Joe I would be replacing that Welch Plug while you can , will save pulling the motor out again if it leaks in a couple of years. The LR 1st motion shaft is larger in diameter than the Holden one. You will be able to get the spigots out by packing the hole full of grease then find something that is a neat fit in the hole then driving the drift in with a hammer , the grease should hydraulic it out. It looks like your old motor is missing the spigot bush you need to check the diameter of the hole & the diameter of the shaft , if the shaft is loose in the spigot it will brake the centre out of the clutch plate . Can't help with weather to cut the lug on the Holden motor , never had a LR with a Holden red motor.

[1950landy]

Something strange going on , every time I try to edit a post it ends up doing a double post , also when I click on edit post it adds all this strange gibble gobble which I have to delete.

[Homestar]

I've never seen any other Holden installation with the block cut like that, nor had to do it when I fitted one myself or to one I removed from my latest - maybe the wrong starter or something?

As mentioned, use grease to hydraulic the old spigot bearing out - last time I did one, I uses a 1/2" extension with a rag wrapped around it - not ideal, nut got me out of trouble. If you can find something that's a closer fit, that would be preferable.

Agree it would pay to change the welch plugs while you are at this stage.

[shamirj]

1. yes agree I have never seen or heard of the block being cut up - I'm beginning to think this adaptor housing is not the correct one for the holden engine conversion, but you see the starter blockage with the block in the pic (behind)

2. It pains me to cut up the block but in order to get this job done, I carefully started to cut away pieces of the block and re fit the starter till it cleared

3. more of the block cut (butchered) and cleaned up as much as possible to resemble original spec holden engine

4. adaptor housing now fits and allows starter to fit as well.

5. is this another spigot for the flywheel, seems like my old 186 had nothing (large hole), the newer 202 has a smaller spigot (unable to fit shaft from gearbox) and then there is another spigot in the flywheel. will need to take some more measurements on this

6. while i had the grinder cut away the side wall of the chassis radiator support now has a gap which will need welding next - allows water to drain freely away and not rely on the two smaller holes i had drilled previously for drainage.

I may leave alone the welsh plug for now - I need to sort out the spigot - i have seen videos of the grease method to pull out the spigot but saw another video using a bolt/nut which i tried today but did not work for me. so that will be next.

[shamirj]

1. this damn spigot will not come out, hammered inwards and got it moving, but it wont come out bugger

2. here is the grease and the bugal I was using to hammer in the grease but no luck yet gave up in the end and went onto welding the rad chassis support instead

3. welded not pretty needs cleaning up, but at least its another job done. ran out of grinding and cutting discs.

tried few diff approaches and bolts to remove that spigot but no luck. scratching me head moment to think of something else

[whitehillbilly64]

I used cheap white bread.
Took two slices......... not as messy as grease.

whitehillbilly

[1950landy]

If you don't need the spigot bush & you have a big enough thread tap you could try tapping a thread in the bush & when the tap bottoms in the bottom of the hole in the crankshaft it may push the bush out. Some Freeze Off would help to shrink the bush to make it easer.

[1950landy]

If you don't need the spigot bush & you have a big enough thread tap you could try tapping a thread in the bush & when the tap bottoms in the bottom of the hole in the crankshaft it may push the bush out. Some Freeze Off would help to shrink the bush to make it easer. Or once you have a thread in the bush you could use a slide hammer to pull it out.

[shamirj]

thanks to all suggestions including the bread which i tried with no results to show for so ...

1. just as an extraction from my S1, went to the blue mountains on w/end and came across this beauty - 6wd LR army now used as a touring company, reminded me of my old 110 6wd I owned way back when...

2. so out came the biggest drill i had and drilled out the spigot, tried the grease and the bread but nothing seemed to move it fwd, i could tap it backwards but not out. so drill to the rescue

3. here u can see it drilled out, did also use a small grinding wheel and did shave more off then the screwdriver and hammer came out gently

4. you can see here its broken up by now, ready to come out - finally

5. the two diff flywheels, had some problems lining up the flywheel with its holes using the screwdrivers as a guide but no effect getting frustrated so needed to think outside the square and remembered i had the head bolt guides for the tappets so ...

6. inserted into position with all 6 holes and job done so much easier, no why didn't i think of that before

7. finally bolted into position and ready for a clean up and then the clutch assembly and almost ready to refit into engine bay...

[1950landy]

Have you tensioned the flywheel bolts to correct tension.

[shamirj]

yep tensioned all bolts, moving on found some strength to complete the install of the engine into the engine bay

1. clutch assembly fitted and bolted up

2-3. preparing the engine and the hoist for the lift up into the engine bay, only using the rope and the chain already fitted to the hoist

4. engine fitted up on its engine mounts, another job done (however feels like been there done that before)

5. now to sort out the gearbox and clutch foot pedal mechanisms - however desperate to fire the old girl up

still lots to do incl checking the engine oil, top up if needed, connected everything up to fire her up, mate up the gearbox, but i feel like the hard bits are done except the g/box to do. rest is easy now.

[shamirj]

1-2. not much to report other then connecting everything up including the negative battery terminal, air filter, checked the oil level - all good and clean, installed starter motor and connected wiring, connected the distributor wires, placed into position the radiator and connected one side of the piping, fitted up the exhaust and connected with manifold paste, tightened down the engine mounts, checked to see if there was enough clearance with the radiator metal fan (original) but fails as it touches the chassis so will stick with the elec fan, connected fuel line etc.

Super keen to crank and start her up but with the gearbox hanging off the end and not properly attached concerned about the rear of the engine catching on the box somewhere. So next will be the gearbox proper install just so that i can crank her over.

Q1. I removed the distributor to paint behind it then replaced in its position as found prior - if I have inserted one tooth out from original will my timing be disturbed? Or should i try to crank and see if she fires up and starts or not? Not sure if I have disturbed the timing due to removing the distributor. Looking fwd to the weekend when i may get a chance to start her up... fingers crossed no more smoke...

[shamirj]

1-2. trying to line up the gearbox and the engine, pulled them as close as i could together then bolted on top only because it was the easiest bolts to get at but the bottom has a bigger gap, need to rotate the engine to align perhaps or lift the bottom of the two (engine/gearbox). Getting closer unslid the front prop shaft as i had not unbolted this one, but was too hard to align with trying to line up the box and engine.

tmrw will try again to secure the box to the engine properly with a few bolts to secure, then will attempt a first fire up/start up. radiator has no coolant so will only be a quick start up for a test start. clutch link is not on so may do that as well before starting her up.

[1950landy]

I would say the shaft has not lined up with the spigot . You need to loosen the top bolts off the box should go all the way in with out tightening the bolts . Just fit the bolts loose to line up & wriggle the box while pushing towards the motor. If it won't go in than there is a chance the clutch plate is not central. If you do need to use the bolts to pull it in you need to tighten them evenly working your way around the bell housing . If you force it you will bend or brake something .

[shamirj]

1-3. tried a number of different things including rotating the engine to align things up but no luck yet. Have partially removed the gearbox to inspect everything again including the clutch and pressure plate, clutch was nicely aligned using my aligning tool so unless its moved when attempting to install the gearbox could explain it. next will be to remove the clutch and re-align and more carefully align the box and engine. Also removed the front prop shaft which was disconnected by sliding it out at one end but removed completely now. also removed the gearstick which was getting in the way as well. Can't get my engine hoist to the side of car in garage to lift box into position which would make it easier. an extra pair of hands would also help but not available. so keep trying till i get it in. just delays my starting her up...

in hindsight having installed the starter motor probably doesn't help either but leave as is...

[shamirj]

well finally I feel like I'm again making some kinda progress. I took off the clutch and press plate realigned the two and reassembled which took way too long. Then got it as close to the engine as I could and then torqued the bolts evenly which eventually pulled the two halves together, thank god for that one. also ran around and redid the front and rear shafts as well as the gearbox mounts not all tightened but some bolted up.

couldn't resist the urge to fire her up, which she does rotate but no start. I have a feeling that removal of the distributor has upset the timing so will need to check if I'm getting any spark at the spark plug ends and progress from there I guess. completely buggered and filthy as so time for a quick shower and some coffee. had a early start this morning just hate getting under the car.

[shamirj]

Sorry no pics today but am excited, over the last week in amongst the rain i have been doing some little work around the S1 and fitted the front pass door, p/s guard in place needs more bolts though, radiator is in (needs coolant), loosely fitted the front and rear shafts for the diffs, amongst other bits all kinda done and today thought i should try and start her up...

concerned about the removal of the distributor I pulled this out, removed the radiator and got TDC ensured that spark plug 1 was at its highest point, removed the distributor cap to align the rotor and kept trying to match with No1 spark plug then realised its the cable needs aligning not the spark plug so sorted, some fuel spray in the carby and it lives and fired up, impressed and no smoke wow...

do only thing now is that the battery is a little flat so gave it a quick charge for 15mins and fired up again but has no coolant - so next will be to charge the battery properly, buy some coolant and fill her up, then restart and let her warm up, rotate the distributor for the sweet spot etc.

clutch shaft is still not connected yet but will get onto that next as well as securing the bolts/nuts for the shafts and gearbox. then the remaining floor can be installed, bonnet will be last to go on. then back to bleeding the brakes again. kinda feels like I'm getting close to the end. cheers

[shamirj]

1. so the engine hoist is packed up and ready to move out of the way, probably sell it as I have no further use for it.

2. battery is on charge so will leave for few hours to charge her up, did notice the cable did get quite warm yesterday so don't want to leave it on overnight in case ... should suffice to get me to start her up again

3. went to local SCA and bought some green coolant, filled her up 5L plus some more. no leaks yay. is cranking but the battery is flat so now the wait n see. final pic of her in this condition sitting idle dying to go out of the garage for a drive but we must be patient as i have no brakes [bigsad]

[1950landy]

Joe , I would think about selling the engine crane , If you ever need to pull the gear box out again it will make it a lot easier . Once folded up they don't take up much room & are good for moving other heavy items around to save your back.

[Homestar]

You own a Land Rover - keep the hoist. [emoji56][emoji106]

[shamirj]

1. couldn't resist so through on the bonnet to complete the look of the front end of the series one, looking good (imho)

2. another shot of the front end. I did fire the old girl up and played around with the distributor and carby adjustments to get her to ideal nicely, almost there. runs well enough no excessive smoke like before but i did run into a small problem, me.

After running for 5mins or less didn't think the temp on the radiator would be that hot and curious to see the level of coolant and most probably needed a top up from empty - well you can guess what happened next, burnt index finger my stupidity. I did think it could explode if hot and it did. I guess it don't take long to warm up the engine.

anyway what's next - lots of bolts to tighten up, floor needs to go back in, clutch shaft needs fitting, then the brakes and I could have a mobile working vehicle, can't wait...

[shamirj]

1. so my clutch was working fine before removing the holden 186 and then refitted the 202. I did have a mark on some tape but one of my tapes blew off so could not replicate the existing fitting so here it is without the shaft

2. here is the shaft connected, i have tried a number of variations but all give no clutch, again seems like there just is not enough movement on the pedal shaft to rotate enough to engage/disengage the clutch

3. so had another look at the adjusting shaft and its set at maximum length to get the most out of the pedal depress and subsequent max shaft rotation

4. another view, but am yet to figure this out.

confident that it worked well with the 186, the 202 should make no difference, the clutch and pressure plate all reinstalled as was previously so thinking it has to do with the shaft and or pedal adjustment.

positive is the car now starts well, topped up with coolant, tidied up some wiring from the guard that was removed, all lights working yay

[shamirj]

This site will conclude as of today as future updates no longer belong to the holden powered section and will pick up from my old series one section titled 'tiny bit excited' should you wish to follow my journey.

interesting two old blokes bought my old 186 short motor and told me (not sure how accurate) that they had been in search of a holden 6 but insisted it had to be a std bore not oversized when questioned why, they said once reconditioned the oversize have heating problems which i find hard to believe given so many engines are rebored when reconditioned. Is there any truth to this. they were keen to measure the bore width which they did to confirm it was a std block not even trusting the piston stamp of 'std'. they did note the pistons on this engine had previously been changed - not sure how they knew that one.

anyhow good outcome, cleared up more room. thanks for watching.

[mick88]

Good thread,
following with interest.
You will probably find that your 202 will run a bit warmer than the 186 did, as they are basically the same engine block and share the same bore diameter, however the 202 has a quarter inch longer stroke, so in effect a bigger bang generating more heat.

As for the oversize/re-bored engines running hotter, i doubt it makes much difference until they are taken out a fair way, like sixty or eighty thou and by then cylinder walls are starting to get thinner.

Happy motoring.

Cheers, Mick.


This site will conclude as of today as future updates no longer belong to the holden powered section and will pick up from my old series one section titled 'tiny bit excited' should you wish to follow my journey.

interesting two old blokes bought my old 186 short motor and told me (not sure how accurate) that they had been in search of a holden 6 but insisted it had to be a std bore not oversized when questioned why, they said once reconditioned the oversize have heating problems which i find hard to believe given so many engines are rebored when reconditioned. Is there any truth to this. they were keen to measure the bore width which they did to confirm it was a std block not even trusting the piston stamp of 'std'. they did note the pistons on this engine had previously been changed - not sure how they knew that one.

anyhow good outcome, cleared up more room. thanks for watching.