World's biggest battery to be built at KURRI KURRI.

[bob10]

The CEP plans follow on from the announcement last October that the company would build a network of industrial-scale rooftop solar and battery storage installations, totalling up to 1,500MW.
These plans have now been expanded to encompass grid-scale batteries, with the 1,200MW Kurri Kurri battery – there is no word yet on the storage duration – to be part of a network of four big grid-scale batteries across the country with a total capacity of 2,000MW.


"World's biggest battery" at Kurri Kurri will deflate Morrison's gas dreams | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/cep-plans-worlds-biggest-battery-at-kurri-kurri-to-deflate-morrisons-gas-dreams/)

[PhilipA]

Being 8 times the size of the SA battery it would then power the NSW network for 5-10 minutes.

Just repeat after me , batteries do not generate electricity , they just store it . It has to be generated somewhere else.

While a gas power station will GENERATE electricity hour after hour on a cold windless night.
Regards PhilipA

[Tins]

Being 8 times the size of the SA battery it would then power the NSW network for 5-10 minutes.
Probably only on the weekend on a mild day.


Just repeat after me , batteries do not generate electricity , they just store it . It has to be generated somewhere else.

While a gas power station will GENERATE electricity hour after hour on a cold windless night.
Regards PhilipA

Indeed. All these portable battery packs being marketed as silent emission free "generators" gets up my nose as well.

[bob10]

Being 8 times the size of the SA battery it would then power the NSW network for 5-10 minutes.

Just repeat after me , batteries do not generate electricity , they just store it . It has to be generated somewhere else.

While a gas power station will GENERATE electricity hour after hour on a cold windless night.
Regards PhilipA

Solar operates during the day.

[Arapiles]

Being 8 times the size of the SA battery it would then power the NSW network for 5-10 minutes.

Just repeat after me , batteries do not generate electricity , they just store it . It has to be generated somewhere else.

While a gas power station will GENERATE electricity hour after hour on a cold windless night.
Regards PhilipA

Where did anyone say that it was generating electricity?

The role of the batteries isn't to power an entire State, it's to smooth out generation and demand.

FYI, there's some pretty serious people behind that battery - ex-AEMO, ex- Macquarie Bank - and I'd presume that they know what they're doing.

[Old Farang]

The CEP plans follow on from the announcement last October that the company would build a network of industrial-scale rooftop solar and battery storage installations, totalling up to 1,500MW.
These plans have now been expanded to encompass grid-scale batteries, with the 1,200MW Kurri Kurri battery – there is no word yet on the storage duration – to be part of a network of four big grid-scale batteries across the country with a total capacity of 2,000MW.


"World's biggest battery" at Kurri Kurri will deflate Morrison's gas dreams | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/cep-plans-worlds-biggest-battery-at-kurri-kurri-to-deflate-morrisons-gas-dreams/)

It is already posted here where it should be:

Grid can go 75% renewable (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/alternate-energies/278519-grid-can-go-75-renewable-14.html)

[bob10]

It is already posted here where it should be:

Grid can go 75% renewable (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/alternate-energies/278519-grid-can-go-75-renewable-14.html)

Thanks for that. No doubt it will be moved. Don't forget to open the link in the previous post.

[AK83]

....

FYI, there's some pretty serious people behind that battery - ex-AEMO, ex- Macquarie Bank - and I'd presume that they know what they're doing.

Yes!
And this is potentially the main problem.

I think it would be appropriate to see full transparency of what investments the 'decision makers' have in their personal portfolios .. and do their decisions affect these investment portfolios in any way.

Maybe I'm just a bit cynical as to why these folks that supposedly know what they're doing, do these things that really don't make any sense.

Lithium battery for main power storage is simply stupid for a sustainable future.

[NavyDiver]

Yes!
And this is potentially the main problem.

I think it would be appropriate to see full transparency of what investments the 'decision makers' have in their personal portfolios .. and do their decisions affect these investment portfolios in any way.

Maybe I'm just a bit cynical as to why these folks that supposedly know what they're doing, do these things that really don't make any sense.

Lithium battery for main power storage is simply stupid for a sustainable future.

Fully agree. Self interest funding, political donations or investments in coal, gas, oil or renewables and related industries at a personal or associated level driving decisions with out disclosure a problem everywhere. Energy storage is helpful as long as its not just grandstanding. We HAVE the tallest. Biggest...... is showmanship not smart in many instances.

What I find amazing about storage is how quickly things are changing. Pumped hydro like the Snowy River or Tassie perhaps may have effective R.O.I. to store large scale excess renewable energy for other times. Life span of some/most of the current batteries seems a lot to short to make them a good investment in our energy security I feel. My two flow batteries have been great 90%= of the time. The Ten year life span of most batteries is a cost and factor. Noted big moves in a storage/ UPS option I will share in another thread.

Tassie news was "An innovative financial instrument for the buying and selling of stored renewable energy has had its debut in Australia via a “virtual storage” electricity swap contract between Hydro Tasmania and two buyers – Macquarie Group and Shell-owned ERM Power." it is part of Gove plans, "It has backed the $6 billion-plus (https://reneweconomy.com.au/snowy-2-0-rapidly-turning-into-10-billion-white-elephant-experts-say-91248/) Snowy Hydro 2.0 pumped hydro project (the world’s biggest (https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/)) and Tasmania’s proposed $7 billion “battery of the nation (https://www.hydro.com.au/clean-energy/battery-of-the-nation)”.It has backed the $6 billion-plus (https://reneweconomy.com.au/snowy-2-0-rapidly-turning-into-10-billion-white-elephant-experts-say-91248/) Snowy Hydro 2.0 pumped hydro project (the world’s biggest (https://www.snowyhydro.com.au/snowy-20/about/)) and Tasmania’s proposed $7 billion “battery of the nation (https://www.hydro.com.au/clean-energy/battery-of-the-nation)”.
Not meaning to make this political yet it is. Self interest is a factor for everyone. [biggrin]

[bob10]

Now I don't lay claims to being an expert on this, but Renewable energy is happening, and happening now. It is in its infancy, in many respects. But the arguments against sound very similar to the arguments against steam, in the days of sail. And the arguments against the horseless carriage, and heavier than air flight. It is going to happen, you jump on board or get left behind.

[Arapiles]

Yes!
And this is potentially the main problem.

I think it would be appropriate to see full transparency of what investments the 'decision makers' have in their personal portfolios .. and do their decisions affect these investment portfolios in any way.

Maybe I'm just a bit cynical as to why these folks that supposedly know what they're doing, do these things that really don't make any sense.

Lithium battery for main power storage is simply stupid for a sustainable future.


It's private investment - so it's really an issue for them.

FWIW, I'd expect that they're storing cheap power (renewables are extremely cheap) so that they can supply the grid when AEMO requires extra and they can get $$$$ per kWh at spot prices.

FYI, that's why Snowy Hydro - which a couple of years ago was considered a basket case - has been so profitable (because if power is needed they just let water through the generators: no spool up time cf a coal-fired plant).

[jspyle]

The industrialized, developed, civilised(?) world is spending huge amounts of money to develop fusion power, Australia is relying on the energizer bunny. Now there's a subsidy to encourage us to install solar which as far as I know all comes from overseas.
Would it be possible to use said subsidy to encourage Australia to manufacture solar panels?

Just saying!

[drivesafe]

Would it be possible to use said subsidy to encourage Australia to manufacture solar panels?

Just saying!
There are at least 3 companies manufacturing solar panels in Australia.

I know very little more than that, like whether they are Australian owned companies or what ever.

Someone else might be able to shine some light on these companies.

[Vern]

There are at least 3 companies manufacturing solar panels in Australia.

I know very little more than that, like whether they are Australian owned companies or what ever.

Someone else might be able to shine some light on these companies.I believe there is only Tindo, who claim to be Australia's only solar panel manufacturer, whom buy there pv cells from Korea from memory, and other parts from china.

[jspyle]

Thanks Tim, may I call you Tim, and Vern, may I call you Vern, as usual my comments and research are inversely proportional to my cab sav intake.

[Hoges]

Where did anyone say that it was generating electricity?

The role of the batteries isn't to power an entire State, it's to smooth out generation and demand.

FYI, there's some pretty serious people behind that battery - ex-AEMO, ex- Macquarie Bank - and I'd presume that they know what they're doing.

Serious indeed! But...remember, at Macbank 'everything' has a price. No doubt they've done their homework and estimated the gift horse "social" $$$ on offer from the Federal govt.., and are betting on massive capital gains when the time is "right"... there's no altruism for 'saving the planet' in this play. It's a business opportunity pure and simple....
China and India for example are bringing on stream new High Efficiency-Low Emission coal fired power generation equivalent to Australia's total coal fired output every 6 months! The most widely used process for refining Lithium is one of the most toxic -emission/byproduct processes in all industry. China has a monopoly on lithium processing and is now struggling to contain the damage from hitherto uncontrolled lithium processing... this story has a long way to run yet ...
A piece of trivia: Kg for Kg the energy output of real-time power availability from burning coal in a high efficient/low emission process is 25 times greater than 1 kg of lithium battery storage....

[bob10]

How steel may kick its coal habit
Steelmakers worldwide are facing mounting pressure from government regulators and consumers to decarbonize operations. Doing so is essential to limiting global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius and staving off most of the worst effects of climate change, experts say (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261920303603). In recent months, the world’s three top producers—Europe’s ArcelorMittal, China’s Baowu Steel, and Japan’s Nippon Steel—committed to achieving net-zero emissions by 2050, echoing targets set in their home countries.
But in order to curb steel’s carbon emissions, the sector will have to transform how the material is traditionally made.

Outside Boston, in the industrial suburb of Woburn, one company is working to replace coal with electrons. Boston Metal, an outfit spun out of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, or MIT, uses electric currents to heat iron ore into a bright orange-white liquid, which converts into metal and cools as gray steel blocks. The process doesn’t create greenhouse gas emissions, and when powered with renewable electricity, can be completely emissions-free.




How Steel Might Finally Kick Its Coal Habit | WIRED (https://www.wired.com/story/how-steel-might-finally-kick-its-coal-habit/?bxid=5cc9e26e3f92a477a0ea0693&bxid=5cc9e26e3f92a477a0ea0693&cndid=52475003&cndid=52475003&esrc=subscribe-page&esrc=subscribe-page&hasha=38b653f59d8a788d2b8029d349fb05f1&hasha=38b653f59d8a788d2b8029d349fb05f1&hashb=acd4725d670d172aa9d05ce7f671dc63250efce1&hashb=acd4725d670d172aa9d05ce7f671dc63250efce1&hashc=c17365ab07572ed90614d245ada5ad675f6bc00189fa 766123c70d76d1d7cddf&hashc=c17365ab07572ed90614d245ada5ad675f6bc00189fa 766123c70d76d1d7cddf&mbid=mbid%3DCRMWIR012019%0A%0A&mbid=mbid%3DCRMWIR012019%0A%0A&source=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ&source=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ&utm_brand=wired&utm_brand=wired&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_mailing=WIR_Daily_020721&utm_mailing=WIR_Daily_020721&utm_medium=email&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nl&utm_source=nl&utm_term=list2_p3&utm_term=list2_p3)

[PhilipA]

It will be great if the pilot plant works.

Already Direct Reduction steel making has been in existence for many years which is a "half way House" but AFAIR it depends on significant amounts of scrap steel to be included in the second process where the sponge iron is converted to steel.
BHP were also involved in building a Hot Briquetted Iron (HBI) plant in the Pilbara which was the design of the CSIRO , but it didn't work on a large scale.
Regards PhilipA

$2.4b Port Hedland BHP plant to be demolished - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-02-15/24b-port-hedland-bhp-plant-to-be-demolished/2195244)

Ouch!

[Tote]

Interestingly as I went past the Cullerin range wind farm over the weekend a significant number of turbines on both sides of the road were shut down. A big battery would at least make more use of the generation capability that is wasted in times of low demand.

Regards,
Tote

[bob10]

I see BHP is one of the major investors in Boston Metal. The Port Hedland plant shut down in 2004. This is 2021.

January 11, 2021 09:00 AM Eastern Standard Time
BOSTON--(BUSINESS WIRE (https://www.businesswire.com/))--Boston Metal (https://cts.businesswire.com/ct/CT?id=smartlink&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bostonmetal.com%2F&esheet=52357725&newsitemid=20210111005028&lan=en-US&anchor=Boston+Metal&index=1&md5=8cd77974522188b8871455113d220d38) today announced it raised $50 million in Series B funding, positioning the company to accelerate industrial-scale deployments of its molten oxide electrolysis (MOE) technology towards emissions-free steel. The financing was led by Piva Capital, BHP Ventures, and Devonshire Investors, the private investment firm affiliated with FMR LLC, the parent company of Fidelity Investments. Existing investors Breakthrough Energy Ventures, Prelude Ventures, OGCI Climate Investments, and The Engine also participated in the round, reflecting strong ongoing support for the company and its recent progress






Boston Metal Raises $50 Million to Decarbonize Steelmaking | Business Wire (https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210111005028/en/Boston-Metal-Raises-50-Million-to-Decarbonize-Steelmaking)

[Dorian]

It will be great if the pilot plant works.

Already Direct Reduction steel making has been in existence for many years which is a "half way House" but AFAIR it depends on significant amounts of scrap steel to be included in the second process where the sponge iron is converted to steel.
BHP were also involved in building a Hot Briquetted Iron (HBI) plant in the Pilbara which was the design of the CSIRO , but it didn't work on a large scale.
Regards PhilipA

$2.4b Port Hedland BHP plant to be demolished - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-02-15/24b-port-hedland-bhp-plant-to-be-demolished/2195244)

Ouch!

If I remember correctly (and I may not be) this plant and a similar unit from Rio / CRA was part of the conditions to export iron ore. That they had to attempt to make pig iron here and export it in briquette form. It was the governments attempt to keep some iron making capacity here. They both used gas instead of coal. I know that the Rio plant had to grind the ore to a powder to get the gas to do its reducing thing, but they had problems because the powder then stuck to everything.

Cheers Glen.

[PhilipA]

The point I was trying to make is that a pilot plant may work but full scale production may not as evidenced by the HBI plant which was touted at the time to be the answer to a maiden's prayer.

It is to be hoped that the recent article linked by Bob10 comes to fruition but there are many cases where BIG dollars are invested for no return as with the HBI plant.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

The point I was trying to make is that a pilot plant may work but full scale production may not as evidenced by the HBI plant which was touted at the time to be the answer to a maiden's prayer.

It is to be hoped that the recent article linked by Bob10 comes to fruition but there are many cases where BIG dollars are invested for no return as with the HBI plant.
Regards PhilipA
https://www.bhp.com/-/media/bhp/documents/investors/news/hbifactsheet.pdf?la=en


Is this the one your chatting about? If so it was a cleaning process that shut it down.

BHP is following in the non C02 steel process via its published two options (https://www.bhp.com/media-and-insights/prospects/2020/11/pathways-to-decarbonisation-episode-two-steelmaking-technology/) and is also trying to help China as its customer due to Scope 3 emissions (https://www.afr.com/companies/mining/bhp-invests-in-hydrogen-and-carbon-capture-for-chinese-steel-20201108-p56cit) they are now accounting for. "We stand ready to partner with our customers on this journey. As a leading supplier of steelmaking raw materials, BHP has taken an industry leading position by outlining specific goals and actions (https://www.bhp.com/investor-centre/climate-change-2020) to address our downstream Scope 3 emissions. We approach this challenge with both deep technical knowledge and multi-decadal relationships with our customers across the major steelmaking regions."

BHP wants some of our taxpayer funds at "BHP’s Nickel West division is among seven companies to have been shortlisted and invited to submit a full application for the next stage of the Australian Renewable Energy Agency’s (ARENA) A$70 million ($49 million) hydrogen funding round."

Fully agree on ROI and accountability for spending money.

Noticed 20 tonnes per day from "JV CO WITH LIBERTY HYDROGEN, PURE HYDROGEN INTERNATIONAL SIGNED TERM SHEET WITH PORT ANTHONY RENEWABLES" (I do not hold RLE but do have SXA )

Back on Batteries- I think I broke another one- DOH. Its still under its 10 year warranty thankfully. [biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

https://www.bhp.com/-/media/bhp/documents/investors/news/hbifactsheet.pdf?la=en

Is this the one your chatting about? If so it was a cleaning process that shut it down.

BHP is following in the non C02 steel process via its published two options (https://www.bhp.com/media-and-insights/prospects/2020/11/pathways-to-decarbonisation-episode-two-steelmaking-technology/) and is also trying to help China as its customer due to Scope 3 emissions (https://www.afr.com/companies/mining/bhp-invests-in-hydrogen-and-carbon-capture-for-chinese-steel-20201108-p56cit) they are now accounting for. "We stand ready to partner with our customers on this journey. As a leading supplier of steelmaking raw materials, BHP has taken an industry leading position by outlining specific goals and actions (https://www.bhp.com/investor-centre/climate-change-2020) to address our downstream Scope 3 emissions. We approach this challenge with both deep technical knowledge and multi-decadal relationships with our customers across the major steelmaking regions." Bobs post on highly likely future tariffs and costs on C02 emissions from Chinese steel is on the money in time. Suspect China is far more likely to develop cleaner technology in that sector due to the horrible antipollution and cost caused directly by the pollution they are creating.

BHP wants some of our taxpayer funds at "BHP’s Nickel West division is among seven companies to have been shortlisted and invited to submit a full application for the next stage of the Australian Renewable Energy Agency’s (ARENA) A$70 million ($49 million) hydrogen funding round."

Fully agree on ROI and accountability for spending money.

Noticed 20 tonnes per day from "JV CO WITH LIBERTY HYDROGEN, PURE HYDROGEN INTERNATIONAL SIGNED TERM SHEET WITH PORT ANTHONY RENEWABLES" (I do not hold RLE but do have SXA ) (https://www2.asx.com.au/markets/company/RLE)

Back on Batteries- I think I broke another one- DOH. Its still under its 10 year warranty thankfully. [biggrin]

[101RRS]

How steel may kick its coal habit
Steelmakers worldwide are facing mounting pressure from government regulators and consumers to decarbonize operations. Doing so is essential to limiting global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius and staving off most of the worst effects of climate change, experts say (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306261920303603). In recent months, the world’s three top producers—Europe’s ArcelorMittal, China’s Baowu Steel, and Japan’s Nippon Steel—committed to achieving net-zero emissions by 2050, echoing targets set in their home countries.
But in order to curb steel’s carbon emissions, the sector will have to transform how the material is traditionally made.

Outside Boston, in the industrial suburb of Woburn, one company is working to replace coal with electrons. Boston Metal, an outfit spun out of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, or MIT, uses electric currents to heat iron ore into a bright orange-white liquid, which converts into metal and cools as gray steel blocks. The process doesn’t create greenhouse gas emissions, and when powered with renewable electricity, can be completely emissions-free.




How Steel Might Finally Kick Its Coal Habit | WIRED (https://www.wired.com/story/how-steel-might-finally-kick-its-coal-habit/?bxid=5cc9e26e3f92a477a0ea0693&bxid=5cc9e26e3f92a477a0ea0693&cndid=52475003&cndid=52475003&esrc=subscribe-page&esrc=subscribe-page&hasha=38b653f59d8a788d2b8029d349fb05f1&hasha=38b653f59d8a788d2b8029d349fb05f1&hashb=acd4725d670d172aa9d05ce7f671dc63250efce1&hashb=acd4725d670d172aa9d05ce7f671dc63250efce1&hashc=c17365ab07572ed90614d245ada5ad675f6bc00189fa 766123c70d76d1d7cddf&hashc=c17365ab07572ed90614d245ada5ad675f6bc00189fa 766123c70d76d1d7cddf&mbid=mbid%3DCRMWIR012019%0A%0A&mbid=mbid%3DCRMWIR012019%0A%0A&source=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ&source=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ&utm_brand=wired&utm_brand=wired&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_mailing=WIR_Daily_020721&utm_mailing=WIR_Daily_020721&utm_medium=email&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nl&utm_source=nl&utm_term=list2_p3&utm_term=list2_p3)

I can see this working in recycling steel but not if making steel from iron ore - for sure this could be used to turn iron ore into pig iron but it then needs a carbon source - traditionally coal in the form of coke to get carbon into molten iron to make steel. Now if the electrodes are carbon then yes the carbon can get into the steel but where does the carbon to make the carbon electrodes come from? - normally from coal.

I accept I might be missing something with this.

[Dorian]

Serious indeed! But...remember, at Macbank 'everything' has a price. No doubt they've done their homework and estimated the gift horse "social" $$$ on offer from the Federal govt.., and are betting on massive capital gains when the time is "right"... there's no altruism for 'saving the planet' in this play. It's a business opportunity pure and simple....


Agree - Storing energy when it's cheap and suppling it in high demand for a premium is nothing new. It has been done in the gas industry for quite some time - https://thehub.agl.com.au/articles/2019/08/spotlight-on-newcastle-gas-storage-facility and although it's Australia's largest there are 1/2 a dozen other facilities like this around Oz. A couple of companies are looking at pumping gas back into depleted 'near shore" undersea reservoirs to do the same thing. But for some reason there has been no general conspiracy about it, maybe because it doesn't have the word "renewable" in it.




A piece of trivia: Kg for Kg the energy output of real-time power availability from burning coal in a high efficient/low emission process is 25 times greater than 1 kg of lithium battery storage....

This maybe true, but you can only burn coal once.

Cheers Glen

[101RRS]

There have been a couple of news articles over the past few weeks about alternatives to Snowy Hydro Mk 2 and batteries to store energy for when the sun dont shine and the wind does not blow. No as efficient as batteries but relatively cheap and use less resources.

One is old technology that used to be used in the 19th century - massive flywheels - when there is excess energy the flywheels are spun up and when the sun goes down the flywheels power generators.

The second is being developed in the Hunter - waste metallic material (scrap steel was being used) is reduced to particles just a bit bigger that dust - about iron filings size and then pressure compressed into blocks about the size of house bricks. When there is excess energy these bricks are heated to red hot and when the sun goes down - water is poured over the bricks creating steam to power generators. A pilot test plant is being developed.

So alternatives to batteries are being considered and developed.

Garry

[bob10]

There have been a couple of news articles over the past few weeks about alternatives to Snowy Hydro Mk 2 and batteries to store energy for when the sun dont shine and the wind does not blow. No as efficient as batteries but relatively cheap and use less resources.

One is old technology that used to be used in the 19th century - massive flywheels - when there is excess energy the flywheels are spun up and when the sun goes down the flywheels power generators.

The second is being developed in the Hunter - waste metallic material (scrap steel was being used) is reduced to particles just a bit bigger that dust - about iron filings size and then pressure compressed into blocks about the size of house bricks. When there is excess energy these bricks are heated to red hot and when the sun goes down - water is poured over the bricks creating steam to power generators. A pilot test plant is being developed.

So alternatives to batteries are being considered and developed.

Garry

We are at the beginning of a massive shift in power generation. Early days, but it is exciting to see. There may even be a place for nuclear fusion power plants down the road. [ If they can smooth out the problems , perhaps a propulsion system for a future submarine]. We live in interesting times.

[SCorpion2]

There have been a couple of news articles over the past few weeks about alternatives to Snowy Hydro Mk 2 and batteries to store energy for when the sun dont shine and the wind does not blow. No as efficient as batteries but relatively cheap and use less resources.

One is old technology that used to be used in the 19th century - massive flywheels - when there is excess energy the flywheels are spun up and when the sun goes down the flywheels power generators.

The second is being developed in the Hunter - waste metallic material (scrap steel was being used) is reduced to particles just a bit bigger that dust - about iron filings size and then pressure compressed into blocks about the size of house bricks. When there is excess energy these bricks are heated to red hot and when the sun goes down - water is poured over the bricks creating steam to power generators. A pilot test plant is being developed.

So alternatives to batteries are being considered and developed.

Garry

We already employ this type of technology in our grid. Large flywheels are called large synchronous condensers with flywheels and provide grid inertia. Some of this grid inertia is already provided by the large rotors used in traditional power generators; however, some power generation doesn't have large spinning rotors and additional condensers will then require construction. See AEMO | Energy Explained: Frequency Control (https://aemo.com.au/en/learn/energy-explained/energy-101/energy-explained-frequency-control) link.

Here is the final-2020-integrated-system-plan.pdf (aemo.com.au) (https://aemo.com.au/-/media/files/major-publications/isp/2020/final-2020-integrated-system-plan.pdf?la=en) from AEMO. It gives quite a large amount of information that is worth reading if anyone is curious about the future of power services in Australia.

[PhilipA]

One is old technology that used to be used in the 19th century - massive flywheels - when there is excess energy the flywheels are spun up and when the sun goes down the flywheels power generators.
In the early noughties this was touted as "the next big thing" using super conductor bearings to levitate the flywheel ie no friction losses.

In fact there are some installations in Australia.
The one I know of is at Coral bay in WA.
They have some (6?)wind generators and 12 diesel generators and the flywheels are used for frequency control. They are relatively small modular units in cabinets.
Earlier there were Swiss buses that used flywheels for their energy.

They fell out of favour as the destructive effects of a large flywheel jumping its bearings could be dire.

However I often think that the disused mining pits in the Hunter Valley would be perfect for the installation of really huge flywheels at the bottom of the pit.
If they ran out of control it should remain in the pit.
Maybe I should copywrite the idea.
Regards PhilipA

Flywheel energy storage - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage)

Case study_Coral Bay_9AKK100580A2549_Dec2012_HR.pdf (abb.com) (https://library.e.abb.com/public/33d7473dc0436cc7c1257afd004e3d8c/Case%20study_Coral%20Bay_9AKK100580A2549_Dec2012_H R.pdf)

[SCorpion2]

However I often think that the disused mining pits in the Hunter Valley would be perfect for the installation of really huge flywheels at the bottom of the pit.
If they ran out of control it should remain in the pit.
Maybe I should copyrite the idea.
Regards PhilipA

The pits might also serve as really good candidates for pumped hydro as well as a lot of the grid infrastructure is in place.

[Old Farang]

We already employ this type of technology in our grid. Large flywheels are called large synchronous condensers with flywheels and provide grid inertia. Some of this grid inertia is already provided by the large rotors used in traditional power generators; however, some power generation doesn't have large spinning rotors and additional condensers will then require construction. See AEMO | Energy Explained: Frequency Control (https://aemo.com.au/en/learn/energy-explained/energy-101/energy-explained-frequency-control) link.

Here is the final-2020-integrated-system-plan.pdf (aemo.com.au) (https://aemo.com.au/-/media/files/major-publications/isp/2020/final-2020-integrated-system-plan.pdf?la=en) from AEMO. It gives quite a large amount of information that is worth reading if anyone is curious about the future of power services in Australia.

Ah, not quite.
Large flywheels are called large synchronous condensers with flywheels and provide grid inertia.

The function of a "synchronous condenser" is to improve the power factor of AC grids, nothing to do with inertia, OR frequency control.

[Homestar]

Now I don't lay claims to being an expert on this, but Renewable energy is happening, and happening now. It is in its infancy, in many respects. But the arguments against sound very similar to the arguments against steam, in the days of sail. And the arguments against the horseless carriage, and heavier than air flight. It is going to happen, you jump on board or get left behind.

While I’m on board with renewables - in a big way, not speaking up about potential issues or corruption and silencing objections is also non productive. Not that I’m having a go at you here - just making a comment - people (they are out there) who condemn others as naysayers or haters just because they bring up opposing views when they are just trying to bring in other points can skew the agenda. I’ve been accused of being an EV hater many times here on the forum because I bring up points on charging and infrastructure - even though I’m pro EV.

Both sides need to be heard - the obvious nut jobs can be picked pretty easily but there’s room for healthy discussion on both sides. Just saying it’s happening and dismissing others points of view is not worthwhile IMO.

Again, not saying your post is saying this or having a go, just pointing this out.

[bob10]

While I’m on board with renewables - in a big way, not speaking up about potential issues or corruption and silencing objections is also non productive. Not that I’m having a go at you here - just making a comment - people (they are out there) who condemn others as naysayers or haters just because they bring up opposing views when they are just trying to bring in other points can skew the agenda. I’ve been accused of being an EV hater many times here on the forum because I bring up points on charging and infrastructure - even though I’m pro EV.

Both sides need to be heard - the obvious nut jobs can be picked pretty easily but there’s room for healthy discussion on both sides. Just saying it’s happening and dismissing others points of view is not worthwhile IMO.

Again, not saying your post is saying this or having a go, just pointing this out.

If I have condemned any one for being a nay sayer, please point it out. By the same token, there are those who jump on any one who dares go against the status quo, so to speak, on this subject. works both ways. Just saying.

[Arapiles]

China and India for example are bringing on stream new High Efficiency-Low Emission coal fired power generation equivalent to Australia's total coal fired output every 6 months!.

No, they're not: that piece of disinformation re China has been floating about for years. In China it's the provincial governments that are planning new coal plants - against the wishes of the central government - but it's my understanding that (a) much of it doesn't actually get built and (b) that which does get built doesn't get used. You'll note that the articles refer to capacity and development rather than production.

This article states that coal plant growth had peaked and is declining:

Mapped: The world’s coal power plants in 2020 (https://www.carbonbrief.org/mapped-worlds-coal-power-plants)

[AK83]

It's hard to understand why folks get so enthusiastically worked up about this type of rubbish, waste of money and PR stunt.

Quick search reveals that cost per Mwh of this stupid battery is roughly $200.

New York currently in the process of installing Zinc-Air battery for the huge cost of $45/Mwh.

Are folks so blinded by such nonsensical bling(like grid scale Lithium batteries), that they lose any notion of common sense?

This billion dollar waste should be protested against .. and questions asked!! why wasn't a better alternative chosen.
Who is actually benefiting from this dud deal?

Just coz you see "new lithium world saving BS installation gets the go ahead" as the headline in the news, doesn't mean it's good for anything(environment/cost of power/etc)

We're being taken for a new ride, and it's being met with applause(usually by people that just don't understand).

Took me all of about 3 minutes to find basic info as to the cost benefits of this battery vs a pretty much easily available Zinc-Air in a container solution(ie. the current project in New York .. on a much smaller scale compared to this Kurri Kurri installation)

My suggestion is to think more critically, do some 'proper' searching when you see 'BIG HEADLINE, WORLD BEING SAVED' news headline .. question it first.

This doesn't take into consideration even better grid scale battery research happening.
Lithium battery for heavy scale, static, use is a waste of the resource. And this blinkered eco warrior mindset that we "must adopt it now!", no matter the overall cost .. future generations will end up paying for it in some way.

[Grahame Roberts]

The CEP plans follow on from the announcement last October that the company would build a network of industrial-scale rooftop solar and battery storage installations, totalling up to 1,500MW.
These plans have now been expanded to encompass grid-scale batteries, with the 1,200MW Kurri Kurri battery – there is no word yet on the storage duration – to be part of a network of four big grid-scale batteries across the country with a total capacity of 2,000MW.


"World's biggest battery" at Kurri Kurri will deflate Morrison's gas dreams | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/cep-plans-worlds-biggest-battery-at-kurri-kurri-to-deflate-morrisons-gas-dreams/)

What does this have to do with my Discovery 2?

[1103.9TDI]

Ever heard of WOFTAM? Well this is another Government subsidised WOFTAM! Our money subsidising private investment that wouldn’t be viable or even contemplated if no subsidy was present.
This is before the production of the batteries and infrastructure and future disposal is taken into account, for something that we have zero control over. Expensive virtue signalling using our money to enrich a select few. More Chinese sponsored future landfill complements of the Chinese Communist Party.

[bob10]

What does this have to do with my Discovery 2?

Well, I belive this is the alternate energy's thread. The D2 thread is in another part of the forum. In answer to your question, probably nothing. Feel welcome to add to the conversation, on alternate energies. Cheers.

[Homestar]

It's hard to understand why folks get so enthusiastically worked up about this type of rubbish, waste of money and PR stunt.

Quick search reveals that cost per Mwh of this stupid battery is roughly $200.

New York currently in the process of installing Zinc-Air battery for the huge cost of $45/Mwh.

Are folks so blinded by such nonsensical bling(like grid scale Lithium batteries), that they lose any notion of common sense?

This billion dollar waste should be protested against .. and questions asked!! why wasn't a better alternative chosen.
Who is actually benefiting from this dud deal?

Just coz you see "new lithium world saving BS installation gets the go ahead" as the headline in the news, doesn't mean it's good for anything(environment/cost of power/etc)

We're being taken for a new ride, and it's being met with applause(usually by people that just don't understand).

Took me all of about 3 minutes to find basic info as to the cost benefits of this battery vs a pretty much easily available Zinc-Air in a container solution(ie. the current project in New York .. on a much smaller scale compared to this Kurri Kurri installation)

My suggestion is to think more critically, do some 'proper' searching when you see 'BIG HEADLINE, WORLD BEING SAVED' news headline .. question it first.

This doesn't take into consideration even better grid scale battery research happening.
Lithium battery for heavy scale, static, use is a waste of the resource. And this blinkered eco warrior mindset that we "must adopt it now!", no matter the overall cost .. future generations will end up paying for it in some way.

Yes, I've always wondered why Lithium is chosen for ground based systems with plenty of room and no weight limits when much cheaper options are available. Save the lithium batteries for where there weight savings are a huge part of the equation. I can't understand why people what the Telsa Powerwalls either for the same reason - while I'm sure there are a few places that have such limited room they would make sense, most houses would have ample room for a different and much cheaper tech.

[Dorian]

Yes, I've always wondered why Lithium is chosen for ground based systems with plenty of room and no weight limits when much cheaper options are available. Save the lithium batteries for where there weight savings are a huge part of the equation. I can't understand why people what the Telsa Powerwalls either for the same reason - while I'm sure there are a few places that have such limited room they would make sense, most houses would have ample room for a different and much cheaper tech.

So in our case at home - re lithium, we have a LG RESU 10H, it's got a 10 year warranty and the other reason is it's got a 10 year warranty.
In general though lithium batteries can produce a lot more instantaneous current than lead acid and they are mostly maintenance free.
And while weight is not an issue once it's installed, you can deliver a 10Kwhr lithium to site in one piece and install it on a wall with two hefty blokes ( or blokettes) so no crane.

As regards to the zinc air battery, it's pretty new tech so while New York state might be wiling to part with a couple of million to demo the tech, a private company is unlikely to take the risk with a couple of hundred million.
Lithium currently can deliver around 8KW of power for every 8KWhrs of storage where as the zinc air system will only deliver 1KW of power for every 8KWhrs of storage , and most redox batteries are the same.
If you are making your money on filling up the peak demand then your $45 per Kwhr becomes $360 per Kw. It's all in those sneaky numbers.
Once we loose coal and go fully renewable then we will be seeing a larger install of redox batteries "deep" storage batteries, but for now the money is in meeting the peak demand.

Cheers Glen

[Old Farang]

Yes, I've always wondered why Lithium is chosen for ground based systems with plenty of room and no weight limits when much cheaper options are available. Save the lithium batteries for where there weight savings are a huge part of the equation. I can't understand why people what the Telsa Powerwalls either for the same reason - while I'm sure there are a few places that have such limited room they would make sense, most houses would have ample room for a different and much cheaper tech.

I think that it may have a lot to do with its discharge voltage curve. It pretty much holds a stable voltage right down to about 10% discharge, a bit like the old nickel iron batteries.

[bob10]

I think that it may have a lot to do with its discharge voltage curve. It pretty much holds a stable voltage right down to about 10% discharge, a bit like the old nickel iron batteries.


I have 4 120 A lithium batteries, two in the van, and one each in two battery boxes.The voltage under load starts at 14V/ 100%, down to 10.5V /10%.Each battery has a " safe " mode, it will enter " safe" mode at 9V or less, or if it is over discharged. Once in "safe " mode it appears to be in open circuit. No voltage will be detected on the battery terminals and there will be no current output. To bring the battery out of " safe mode ",I connect jumper leads from another battery [ lithium, AGM, gel or Lead acid ,only a temporaty connection] once the battery has reached 10.8 V the BMS will reset, allowing current to flow, and be detected by the charger. I've had these batteries for four years 1, three 1 and two 2. An interesting pod cast discusses whether batteries can rule the Grid. These fellows know what they are talking about.

Energy Insiders Podcast: Can batteries rule the grid? | RenewEconomy (https://reneweconomy.com.au/energy-insiders-podcast-can-batteries-rule-the-grid/)

[Old Farang]

No idea. And in my previous post I was actually thinking of Ni-Cad:

168611

[Homestar]

All the points in replies re lithium from my last post I see as moot points considering how they are used compared to the cost.

Instantaneous current - not required in this application - even if you stuck the kettle, toaster and dryer on at the same time, older battery tech would handle it easily and so would the inverter.

Weight to install - each battery is not that heavy, even lead acid - I used to install huge UPS’s - (100’s of KVA) - the racks get loaded one battery at a time so no crane needed and one guy can do it, not 2 so cross that off as being a benefit, it sounds like a hinderance to me.

Current and voltage curve and usable storage - inverters can handle the current and voltage curves of older tech batteries no dramas, and you can put twice the amount in and get a longer life from them and still be cheaper than the lithium option.

I don’t hate lithium - I love the tech and run a couple in my vans - but there’s a place for them and I just think some people get caught up in the hype and nothing else is all.

So, for my my money I wouldn’t go lithium for a home installation - I’ve been doing the sums recently and I can get a bigger, better, longer lasting system for my money.

Just my 2 cents.

[ramblingboy42]

yes , snowy hydro2 is completely political. the gas fired stations are completely political too.

I'm not into coal but I cannot see the point in the expenditure necessary for new gas fired power stations to be built (which are still , ecologically , very dirty) while we still have existing coal fired stations with their fuel next door.

The coal fired stations can be cleaned up to be just as "clean" as gas fired stations at a quarter of the cost.

current politics are trying to dictate the future of power generation in Australia instead of non political sensible economics.

[windsock]

So, for my my money I wouldn’t go lithium for a home installation - I’ve been doing the sums recently and I can get a bigger, better, longer lasting system for my money.

Just my 2 cents.

What would you go for?

[Homestar]

What would you go for?

I’d go sodium ion if I was in the market (will be another year or two before I am I think) - they last for ages have a discharge depth almost that of lithium and are heaps safer - I’ve had a small drone battery explode and catch fire on me - I wouldn’t want to be around for a larger scale version of that - while uncommon, big lithium batteries do go up in flames and there’s nothing you can do to stop them once they get going. Added to that as far as I can tell they are cheaper too, and given the materials used are very common they won’t be subject to wildly fluctuating prices like lithium is. They are not as widely used so there isn’t the production scale at the moment to bring the cost down but they are gaining traction and the actual material cost for them is significantly cheaper - they are sort of sitting where lithium was 5 years ago - on the edge of mass production.

Disadvantages - they are about twice the size and many times the weight of an equivalent lithium battery for the same output, so only a disadvantage if you live somewhere that has absolutely no room but for the vast majority it is we’d have a spot outside down the back of the house we could stick a large fridge sized object or two if you’re going big.

That’s my point - save the lithium for where it’s needed - vehicles, etc where weight and space matter. These big battery banks they are building could easily be done with current sodium tech for less money per KWH - and it’s not like they are short of room where they are building these things.

I’m not anti lithium or think any less of anyone that installs that at their house, I’m just pointing out there is an alternative that’s not lead acid. I think they’ve had their day for the most part and with so few charge/discharge cycles compared to lithium and sodium they aren’t suitable for home use unless you’re getting them for basically nothing.

[PJJ]

Snowy hydro was never a Basket Case. The introduction of the" national market" was the undoing of Common sense & efficient generation on the Eastern States. The National Market was introduced to reduce Electricity prices through competion. That was back in 1997. 24 years later & see what we have now. The so called National Market has been a total failure. It only makes money for the stakeholders - now mostly non Australian. At the time of the start of the National Market, Australia was in the top few percentage for the cheapest Power in the OECD countries. Not any more! It's the other way around. Snowy 2.0 is just Political. This was knocked back twice 50 odd years ago.
Ok that was my little rave.

Phil[wink11]

[RANDLOVER]

Snowy hydro was never a Basket Case. The introduction of the" national market" was the undoing of Common sense & efficient generation on the Eastern States. The National Market was introduced to reduce Electricity prices through competion. That was back in 1997. 24 years later & see what we have now. The so called National Market has been a total failure. It only makes money for the stakeholders - now mostly non Australian. At the time of the start of the National Market, Australia was in the top few percentage for the cheapest Power in the OECD countries. Not any more! It's the other way around. Snowy 2.0 is just Political. This was knocked back twice 50 odd years ago.
Ok that was my little rave.

Phil[wink11]

Wait till everyone has "smart" meters and we could end up with a situation like Texas Texans stuck with $US5,000 electric bills, officials say power companies 'grossly mishandled' the weather emergency - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-02-22/texans-stuck-with-high-electric-bills-after-winter-storm/13177926)

Key points:

Some Texans were sent bills of $US1,000 a day in the wake of the big freeze
The state's energy market is highly deregulated
Senator Ted Cruz said on Twitter that "no power company should get a windfall because of a natural disaster"

[Homestar]

I thought everyone had smart meters already? And our retail prices aren’t set like that - yet...

[101RRS]

I was changed to a smart meter last September without consultation with me - also told that after 6 months I will have to go onto another tariff (no doubt more expensive). Likewise they switched me to a monthly billing cycle from my preferred 3 months again without consultation.

Really not much choice here in the ACT - only one supplier ACTEW and other providers are just resellers.

[NavyDiver]

Snowy hydro was never a Basket Case. The introduction of the" national market" was the undoing of Common sense & efficient generation on the Eastern States. The National Market was introduced to reduce Electricity prices through competion. That was back in 1997. 24 years later & see what we have now. The so called National Market has been a total failure. It only makes money for the stakeholders - now mostly non Australian. At the time of the start of the National Market, Australia was in the top few percentage for the cheapest Power in the OECD countries. Not any more! It's the other way around. Snowy 2.0 is just Political. This was knocked back twice 50 odd years ago.
Ok that was my little rave.

Phil[wink11]

Hi Phil. Not a hater of Pumped Hydro !

2 billion- Now may be 10 billion
4 years- Now at 5 years and unlikely inside 10 years
No cost to taxpayers- 1.75 billion and counting
No power price hikes- Transmission costs likely to go up 100%

Head need to role?

Five years on, Snowy 2.0 emerges as a $10 billion white elephant Link (https://www.theage.com.au/national/five-years-on-snowy-2-0-emerges-as-a-10-billion-white-elephant-20220310-p5a3ge.html)Disappointing at so many levels [bighmmm]

[Tote]

I reckon that article is pretty biased though, I'll add I'm not an expert but to me the following stands out without doing any research:

Noxious fish - the story makes out that there will be mass distribution of carp across the snowy lakes that are stocked with...Trout, another introduced species.
Environment al damage - Yes, but its not like the snowy scheme hasn't done this already and the world didn't end, the area is far from virgin country, similarly with the transmission lines , the snowy is already criss crossed with high tension lines, what's a couple more
The transmission links to Sydney and Melbourne are hardly relevant to the Snowy project, If you are increasing storage capacity then why do you need more distribution lines - sounds like an add on which would be why Snowy don count them as in scope. Also why would Snowy hydro be in the business of building distribution networks anyway?

The claim that the energy used to pump electricity is not renewable seems a little vague to me. Power in the grid is dependant on the capacity of renewables to provide power. If you chose to pump in the night on a dead calm night this might be true but switching to renewable energy is as simple as choosing when to take advantage of excess generating capacity from renewable sources when it is unused.

The cost blowouts may be correct but that is par for the course for any large infrastructure project.

Sounds like a beat up tailored to grab clicks to me....

Regards,
Tote

[AK83]

....

Sounds like a beat up tailored to grab clicks to me....

Regards,
Tote

Yeah .. same here.
My gripe with the story is on the efficiency of the system.
losing 25% of power during cycling.

What I assumed is the basis of the system was that during times of excess power generation from either wind or solar, instead of asking industry to turn everything on(or shutting parts of the grid down, to not blow it to pieces) ... it'd be a better solution to bank that excess power in a less inefficient manner by pumping water back up the hill so to speak.
If that is supposedly what the idea of pumped hyrdo is supposed to be, does the actual efficiency numbers(power in vs power back out) matter?
Or do we just go on our merry way in wasting another limited resource(eg.. lithium) and build more useless tesla fire stations ... oops, I meant ... battery banks that only allow a few minutes of reserve power?

If heads had to roll over every cost blowout, every ill advised large scale project ... nothing would have ever been built, and/or not a single governmental head would still be intact over the course of the past 200+ years!
Do we really find it surprising that the build was 'under reported' in every aspect of the job?